Posted: 3/9/2009 12:11:37 AM EDT
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The only thing any of you should keep in your end of the world first aid kits are band-aids, aspirin or Tylenol, and a bullet. If you can't fix it with a band-aid or over the counter pain medication, use the bullet.
Of course the preceding was meant in jest. But it seems that every time there is a medical question on this forum, the more learned jump in with all sorts of dire warnings about trying to treat anything more serious than a skinned knee at home. We should understand that what we are commonly speaking of are times when things are dire, that normal medical providers are unavailable/overloaded, and that the patient/loved one is probably going to die regardless. I don't think I could stand idly by and watch a person suffer a slow agonizing death and keep uppermost in my mind the maxim "First, do no harm." In a real SHTF scenario most medical providers have not come to grips with the fact that all the nifty "use once, throw away" medical supplies may be quickly used up by mass casualties with little, if any, hope of resupply. They are going to have to start practicing medicine with very rudimentary tools. Most of us realize we are behind the eight ball regarding knowledge, and that is why we come here to ask questions and gain insight. Never have I seen anyone come on here and ask "I want to learn open heart surgery, and my brother said he would let my try it out on him." Most folks just want answers to specific questions, and I can't imagine anyone here trying to sue another poster based on advice they had received. Besides, after TEOTWAWKI, what courts would be around to entertain such a suit. The points I'm trying to make are: 1) Any medical advice given or received here should be taken with a grain of salt. 2) Please educate yourself before practicing any medical procedure on another person. 3) Realize your limitations, and only use provided advice when regular medical personnel are unavailable and the patient will probably succumb anyway. 4) Know that without proper hygiene, any invasive procedure will more than likely produce infection. 5) Said infection may kill the patient. Maybe we should post this as a sticky, so that it is not repeated every time someone asks what medical supplies they should keep on hand for their BOL, BOB, etc. |
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Mark, you are illustrating the ages old human nature deficiency of fear and insecurity + big egos, and a bit of 'I want you to stay safe', commonly known as "stepping on someone's turf".
Like you point out, it happens almost every time some medical DIY issue is raised. 
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Many more people die in ths US from medical malpractice than from catastrophes. And that's with experienced, trained, and educated medical professionals.
They're simply playing the odds when they suggest that you resist the urge to break out the "Mr. Scalpel" set at the first signs of a stomachache. |
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Quoted:
Many more people die TODAY in ths US from medical malpractice than from catastrophes. And that's with experienced, trained, and educated medical professionals. They're simply playing the odds when they suggest that you resist the urge to break out the "Mr. Scalpel" set at the first signs of a stomachache. Fixed. He's talking after a major catastrophe ie TEOTWAWKI type stuff, not my powers out so I'm going to give my 2 yo an IV and start hacking on them. Think no phones, no transport, no docs coming to you etc not everyone out here are complete idiots nor wanting to step on any highly educated (and usually proud) toes during normal times, some of us actally want to prepare for when times are bad. |
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Quoted:
Of course the preceding was meant in jest. But it seems that every time there is a medical question on this forum, the more learned jump in with all sorts of dire warnings about trying to treat anything more serious than a skinned knee at home. We should understand that what we are commonly speaking of are times when things are dire, that normal medical providers are unavailable/overloaded, and that the patient/loved one is probably going to die regardless. I don't think I could stand idly by and watch a person suffer a slow agonizing death and keep uppermost in my mind the maxim "First, do no harm." In a real SHTF scenario most medical providers have not come to grips with the fact that all the nifty "use once, throw away" medical supplies may be quickly used up by mass casualties with little, if any, hope of resupply. They are going to have to start practicing medicine with very rudimentary tools. ... Most Maybe we should post this as a sticky, so that it is not repeated every time someone asks what medical supplies they should keep on hand for their BOL, BOB, etc. Actually, us more learned tell people to GET MORE TRAINING. Because if they HAVE MORE TRAINING they don't have to ask what kind of stuff to store. When I first became an EMT 20 years ago I stocked just about every bit of material imaginable. Then over the years as my training and skill grew, I gradually starting carrying less and less because what I realized was that for the most part, the thing I needed most was a working brain stuffed with experience and knowledge. I can't teach a civilian how to do an emergency C-section (nor can I do one legally under "normal" circumstances), but I have watched a couple and read the procedures. That is much better than having a surgical pack and an OB kit stored away without the experience. If you have to ask, you are more likely to be more dangerous than good. I think the point that most of us "learned" is trying to make is that asking for middling level advice when you don't even have a grasp of the basics is a waste of all of our time. If you are a novice, the best question to be asking is "where can I learn more about XYZ", not, "well, I think I might need to know how to do an emergency liver transplant, what are the step by step instructions?" |
| The same advice goes for anything, I'd say, not just the medical area. All the people planning to suture themselves just as quick as Rambo did might want to wait a while for it. A lot of medical problems can be fixed by doing nothing. If somebody has diarrhea, sometimes all you need to do is wait and let it run its course. Sometimes diarrhea and/or vomiting just mean that you ate something bad and your body is trying to get rid of it as fast as possible. |
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Quoted:
Actually, us more learned tell people to GET MORE TRAINING. Because if they HAVE MORE TRAINING they don't have to ask what kind of stuff to store. When I first became an EMT 20 years ago I stocked just about every bit of material imaginable. Then over the years as my training and skill grew, I gradually starting carrying less and less because what I realized was that for the most part, the thing I needed most was a working brain stuffed with experience and knowledge. I can't teach a civilian how to do an emergency C-section (nor can I do one legally under "normal" circumstances), but I have watched a couple and read the procedures. That is much better than having a surgical pack and an OB kit stored away without the experience. If you have to ask, you are more likely to be more dangerous than good. I think the point that most of us "learned" is trying to make is that asking for middling level advice when you don't even have a grasp of the basics is a waste of all of our time. If you are a novice, the best question to be asking is "where can I learn more about XYZ", not, "well, I think I might need to know how to do an emergency liver transplant, what are the step by step instructions?" I completely agree. It's not that we're trying to corner the market on medical procedures, it's that we're trying to urge people to answer their questions through REAL knowledge. Internet knowledge only goes so far. I start IV's about every shift, and I still missed three of the four I tried yesterday. While most EMS personnel usually just throw a 4x4 and some tape over a missed IV attempt, they forget that those misses can lead to all sorts of other problems (so can successful sticks). If you haven't DONE it, asking about it on the internet does little good. As medical professionals, we try to push people toward classroom and practical education, where knowledge and skills are honed with the help of actual instructors. You can learn far more about starting IV's (for example) in a single day of clinicals than in weeks of reading the same book material over and over. And as the quote above states, once you've had some medical education, you'll ask fewer questions about these things. You'll start seeking further training, and you'll learn that most of the junk in a medical kit is junk. |
| What really needs to be said is, " If TEOTWAWKI occurs, and your loved one get injured they stand a good chance of dying. Mortality rates will skyrocket. A lot of people will die young, just like the good old days. Think average lifespan of 35-40 years. A huge number will die quickly. Just the way it will be. If TEOTWAWKI becomes reality, reality will suck big time. It won't be fun and games like fantasize here. It will be brutal. You best be prepared. Find someone who knows something. A paramedic is good. A RN from ER or OR is good. A doctor or vet would be great. My family is blessed with lots of medical pros. I even plan and prep stuff just for some of them. They are not awake but will be mighty handy on a bad day. The only thing that I warn people about is the desire to go get IV "stuff" and practice, without knowledge. You can do real damage. Permanent damage. Just don't do it if you aren't trained. WJ |
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Oh I agree, GET MORE TRAINING.
As a old EMT- Paramedic- PA, I worked my way up with training. Oh yes I do remeber the days of the "Ricky Rescue" and "Erinie EMT" who tried to carry a boat load of gear to a scene. As I became more educated and experianced my gear bags became smaller and I was able to treat my patients better. Oh yes we in the medical profession just love it when someone tries to second guess us with something they have read on the internet. For most people A good first aid kit is all that is needed. If you are expecting large bleeding wounds, invest in some old fashioned Kotex pads from the dollar store. They hold about one unit of blood when saturated and makes esitmating blood loss easier. After SHTF, many medical cases will not be able to be saved, as drugs and procedures will not be availible. People die, this is a constant. Oh and if I may add, when dealing with a wound, clean it well, and when you think you have it clean. CLEAN IT AGAIN. |
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A good post, overall, but times have changed. No offense meant.
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If you are expecting large bleeding wounds, invest in some old fashioned Kotex pads from the dollar store. They hold about one unit of blood when saturated and makes esitmating blood loss easier. If you are expecting large bleeding wounds, get tourniquets, Combat Gauze (a Quik Clot product) or Celox, and H dressings. Your patient will lose less than a unit of blood if you get there fast enough. (or get it on yourself fast enough) |
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I've never had an external wound I couldn't fix with direct pressure, and I doubt blood loss is any higher than with quick clot. Now if I were in combat, and needed to deal with a patient in 60 seconds or less, so I could go back to fighting, I'd be a big user of quick clot (and tourniquets.)
By external wounds, I 'm not counting nose bleeds. I had one case where I wanted to use it on trauma related internal nasal injucy, because I stuffed the nose with part of a 4x4 but the female patient would panic if I applied pressure to her nose. I thought of using QC, but in contacting my online medical director, he had no experience using it in the nasal cavity. We ended up diverting to a rural hospital to have it addressed by a dentist with a electrosurgical appratus, and then continued to the hosiptal due to possable C spine injuries. |