[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Defensive choke Moves (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/23/2008 11:07:21 AM EDT
UFC has some nice things going on but I don’t think you'll fight naked guys a lot ( no dude, I don’t even want to hear it !! )
Anyway, bare chest attackers aren’t that common, more than likely there going to be clothes, and you can use those to your advantage in a real fight. Actually, it can be a VERY cool key advantage if you know how to use it, killing your attacker in seconds by cutting the blood flow to the brain. But in the real world, expect punches to the head, desperate attempts to sink the fingers into your eyeballs as well. You want to this move, but also close your eyes tight and press your face against your crossed arms to keep his fingers off your eyes and mouth. Just hold on, take the beating like a man ( or woman) for a few seconds while the choke does its magic. It will soon be over… for him. :) Keep in mind I’m talking about unarmed attackers. If a knife is involved you don’t want to be this close unless you disarmed your attacker first ( other set of moves). Also, we are not the only ones that carry folders. Keep an eye on any hand movement to the waist or pockets and neutralize any movement towards them by hooking your arm under the armpit during the choke, or doing it under both arms and locking the fingers together on the back of the neck.( Careful with any kind of pressure in the spine!) This gets a bit more complicated and requires more upper body strength, but the basic chokes still work well on unarmed attackers. For the ladies, think about the typical rapist stance (bad guy on top) You can practice these with a friend to get it right . CAREFUL!! this is dangerous stuff, make sure your partner isn’t an idiot and understands the risks. Blood flow stops immediately, let go as soon as the partner taps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tda_8lqyMU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJjm96hKYdM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gell1cXes8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkfGAyBXsCY&feature=related This choke is VERY effective. Use it knowing the risks involved. Let go of your partner right away or you can do a lot of damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EM0lGHQYeE FerFAL |
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those are all nice to have in your tool box. Be aware that these will only work with certain types of clothing. Most of these chokes are really effective on someone wearing a denim jacket, but won't work on many other types of clothing. I'd definately consider them in the 'sport' category. You can easily rip/strech a collar making these chokes no longer effective.
That being said, the nice part about these chokes that cut off the blood vs. cutting off air is that people can easily be asleep before they know they're being choked! |
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See, there you go again, bringing wrestling moves to a gun fight. lol j/k I’ve seen people getting disarmed by unarmed opponent, every single time they tried it. And the guy was a very good competitive shooter. Good shooter, poor fighter. Bad combination. Don’t put too much trust in your gun. It’s just a tool. TobyLazur wrote: those are all nice to have in your tool box. Be aware that these will only work with certain types of clothing. Most of these chokes are really effective on someone wearing a denim jacket, but won't work on many other types of clothing. I'd definately consider them in the 'sport' category. You can easily rip/strech a collar making these chokes no longer effective. I wouldn't doubt in using them if the situation permits. Unless teh cotton is rotting, the material will hold, just grab a nice chunk of it when doing it. 
FerFAL |
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But in the real world, expect punches to the head, desperate attempts to sink the fingers into your eyeballs as well. You want to this move, but also close your eyes tight and press your face against your crossed arms to keep his fingers off your eyes and mouth. Just hold on, take the beating like a man ( or woman) for a few seconds while the choke does its magic. It will soon be over… for him. :) On many of those vids the hold was done in a position where the choker was on his back and the other guy was on top of him with his face on the chokers belly. I don't think there are (m)any men who can keep the hold while getting pounded full force on their private parts by the person on top.  
In my opinion, this can only work in a sporting event - on the street, not a chance. This is just my meek opinion - if you have the proverbial "balls of steel" it can be another matter. However, most people don't own such a pair. I know I sure don't. :) On the other hand, the triangle hold showed on one clip is very effective also in real life. IF you can get yourself into the position behind the "bad guy" so that you are able take and keep the hold long enough. If you walk backwards a few steps as you hold him (you should!), you will take him out of balance and there is very little that can be done effectively by him. Most persons only have two choices: either tapping out or passing out :) If you have to physically intervene a situation (where all parties are unarmed), this is a good start. (Just don't overdo it or you will be in a serious judicial jeopardy.) This is according to my personal experience, so as always - YMMV. |
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On the other hand, the triangle hold showed on one clip is very effective also in real life. IF you can get yourself into the position behind the "bad guy" so that you are able take and keep the hold long enough. If you walk backwards a few steps as you hold him (you should!), you will take him out of balance and there is very little that can be done effectively by him. Most persons only have two choices: either tapping out or passing out :) If you have to physically intervene a situation (where all parties are unarmed), this is a good start. (Just don't overdo it or you will be in a serious judicial jeopardy.) This is according to my personal experience, so as always - YMMV. I think you refer to the last one, but it’s not a triangle, it’s the rear naked choke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPPRz0NLVkM This is the arm triangle choke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kqg9E2hHfU Which is a variation from the triangle choke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhpSHRjqpos But yes, it is easy and terribly effective. The other ones work too. You just need to learn to apply them to the correct situation. Trying to choke someone while 2 other buddies of his kick your head isn't a good idea. But yes, if I'm caught fighting, on the floor agianst one guy, and I manage a triangle choke or any of the other ones showed, he can complain about it only being a sport all he wants, blood will still stop going to his brain. 
FerFAL |
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In my opinion, this can only work in a sporting event - on the street, not a chance.
Well in my opinion, i have used them several times in self-defense....they work, when you do them. I used them on violent offenders, to people being assholes. it helps that my training perspective is to adapt. I have done cross arm chokes wiith the person upside down. |
| Training is better than no training. Most fights go to the ground. Once you're there, it's nice to know what to do. If your aggressor has "buddies" and you go to the ground you better know how to end it quick so you can address the other threats. The best answer is avoiding the situation all together, but if it happens, it happens. You obviously wouldn't want to try to go to the ground when up against more than one person, but you may not have a choice in the matter. |
| I'm a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA fighter. There is a time for everything. You would be quite surprised how well BJJ/MMA moves work with clothing on. They often work better because you have something to hold on to. Thats why intelligent fighters train in both Gi and No-Gi so you are prepared for everything. It is very easy to switch from sport mode to life/death mode if you know what you are doing. |
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In my opinion, this can only work in a sporting event - on the street, not a chance.
Well in my opinion, i have used them several times in self-defense....they work, when you do them. I used them on violent offenders, to people being assholes. it helps that my training perspective is to adapt. I have done cross arm chokes with the person upside down. +1 knowing how to execute moves helps you learn how to defend against them. against multiple opponents you had better fight dirty and use weapons. situational awareness, improvising weapons, and reading people, are also important skills to learn. |
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These are things that can be useful, even life savers, but under certain circumstances.
Hell guys, even a gun can ruin your life if used under wrong circumstances. One on one, you can afford going to the ground, not ideal but can be done and finished quick. Of course, you have no other option you do it the same and try to finish him before his buddy kicks your brain out of your skull. Best thing to do? Run! No option but to fight? Boxing while on your feet, works well even in brawls were multiple attackers may be involved. Knife or stick? Keep him away with side kicks and low kicks if you are lucky and he’s stupid enough, you may even drop him to the floor with a good low kick and finish the fight soon, or run. Use anything, chairs, luggage, throw random objects, anything to keep him away, use your jacket wrapped around your arm, or hitting him with it to tangle the knife in the cloth ( old gaucho trick, performed with poncho) I’d much rather practice this stuff that I know works, than fool myself into choreographic self defense systems that convince some people you can win a fight against multiple attackers when truth is you can’t if they really want to get you. There was this Krav Maga promotional video, guy walking under a bridge gets caught by three guys, one of them with a bat. Of course they all attack taking turns, one at a time, our hero dropping each of them with one mighty KM blow… punches that in a real life fight would achieve absolutely nothing, but here they freeze and drop. Chances of dropping a thug cold with one punch? For someone that doesn’t box often, none. A person that box for real ( full contact sparring and lots of experience at it) chances are a bit better, JUST a bit. All the thug needs to remember is to keep his hands up and things get pretty complicated. Add more than one bad guy and it only happens in Hollywood.. or in KM choreography. I’ll stick with what works in Vale Todo. If it works on the field, I’m willing to give it a chance, but if it doesn’t even work in a somewhat controlled situation, ( 1 on 1, no weapons) I’m not buying it. FerFAL |
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Collar chokes and other gi chokes aren't as useful as no gi chokes in the real world because most of the time people do not wear clothing that mimics a gi. The collar on most shirts just won't be strong enough to pull these chokes off. Most of the time rear naked, arm triangle(and variants like the d'arce and anaconda), guillotine, and no-gi ezekiel chokes are going to be more useful most of the time. The no-gi ezekiel isn't as popular as the others in competition because it is difficult to get on an active, knowledgeable opponent but it should work great against a layman.
no-gi ezekiel |
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knowing how to execute moves helps you learn how to defend against them.
against multiple opponents you had better fight dirty and use weapons. situational awareness, improvising weapons, and reading people, are also important skills to learn. Well over 25 years ago I was teaching my students how to fight against multiple attackers, I was also using situational awareness. We had hallways, did chair-defenses, dozens of different scenarios. I also taught fighting with and without a weapon and against weapons. As for rules, MrsWind is a shodan in TKD, when we were first together, I told her I would take her to the ground, pin her for 5 mins then let her up. 5 mins later I let her up, she called her Sensei....who laughed and told her 'He has no rules' . Everything you can think of, have been there, and even more so...someone was there before me. There is nothing new, just new ways of packaging it. Andeven with 40 years in the various arts......I carry a gun. |
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I've used the rear naked choke before. It's a scary thing to use. Never having used it at 100% until the person is out, I wasn't sure if I actually broke the guys neck from squeezing so hard.
I use to be head of security at several bars in the city I lived in. A guy we threw out of our bar for being drunk went to another one of the bars that my friend owned. When I checked on that bar, the guy was outside passed out on the patio. We had a total of 3 bouncers come up to him and wake him up. We instructed him that he had to leave. Immediately he became aggressive and started to yell at us. He said that he's staying and we can't tell him to leave. He was in my face and I didn't like that... I couldn't believe that I was about to punch someone, I haven't had to punch anyone in years! My bouncer told him to get out of my face. The guy pushed my bouncer, I slipped behind him and threw in a rear naked choke. I lifted up and started walking backwards. (If you don't do this, you may get flipped or end up on the deck grappling.) The more he struggled, the more I tightened the choke. Finally, after about 10-15 seconds, he went out. I loosened the choke a bit... then thought to myself... did i just pop his neck? Am I going to jail for manslaughter? I loosened the choke even more... I heard him snoring. OK... He's alright. We took him out to the parking lot and put him down by a wall... Check to make sure he's still breathing... Thoughts ran through my head... nice flash backs of Marine training... lol. My boss told me to snap out of it, I did, without incident and walked away from him. 5 minutes later he's in the parking lot sitting on people's cars (like one of my other bouncer's vehicle.) Anyway... more of the story, even if you know how to hit a move and know it's application, most training doesn't go beyond that. Most training doesn't tell you how long someone will be out. How long you should hold the choke (or any other move) for or the true damage that it can cause. I've had a rear naked choke set on me and squeezed. It feels like your head is going to pop. But then you tap and they leg go. If that's all the training you get, then you've got to get more training! Hardwarz |
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See, there you go again, bringing wrestling moves to a gun fight. lol j/k Hand to hand is just another "tool in the toolbox." Do NOT relay on the fact that you always CCW. We shown at a couple of campouts here in the S.E. just how easy it is to take a handgun away from someone. When a 90 lb. chick can take one away from a 250 lb. 6 foot guy, you know it's good technique, and it does NOT require you to grapple for the weapon. Choke holds are very effective. Styles like Ju Jitsu focus a lot on chokes. Good post. Lowdown3 |
| I saw a poster mention getting your gun taken from you. Has anyone seen that show fight science? They did one on special forces, they had this isralie commando, who disarmed a man so fast that you almost could not see it at regular speed. I think the chances of a criminal element having this kinda training are slim...very slim, but it was still interesting. In most cases the person robbing/intruding on you will probably be jacked up on something with very bad reflexes. Although anything is possible be careful! |
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Finally something I know a little about - I train 3 hours monday, wed, and 2 hours friday...gi, no gi, and Muay Thai.
I choke people until they tap. I get choked. This stuff works. I hardly ever get rear mount on experienced fighters. But head and arm, triangle choke, arm triangle, and Ezekiel (sleeve choke) make money all day long. You guys need to get familiar with the sleeve choke. If you only knew sleeve choke and baseball bat choke you'd be OK. Anyone (doubters) wants to come to Ft. Jackson, I'll give you a free domonstration, as long as you bring someone who can drive you home after you wake up. no shit. |
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I'd likely blow someone away long before it got to that level of proximity. As above, don't bring hands to a gunfight. well if you could pick when you can use your CCW or how your gonna fight then yeah, gun all the way. For the most part you can not not chose the moment of the "fight" unless you have good weapons retiontion if the other guy has any if little training they will more than likely either A) not get shot(or least not where your aiming) b) take your weapon away c) use it on you d) all of the above more than likely if the weapon isnt stripped from its user your now in a H2H fight with the person that pulled the gun. we'd all like to say that we would maintain a 21ft rule at all times, but that never happens. Yeah i know bad guy at 2am ,moon at his back, walks up with a gun " give me you money Yo.." your gonna blade at a 45..draw and point shoot from the hip, before they see it coming. Doesnt always happen that way. think real world ATM,parking lot, getting in or out of your car ,alley way, public restroom, bar...things escalate fast sometimes, and you cant walk around at low ready at all times 
YMMV IMHO there is a reason why folks shy away from H2H or knife fighting training like that. Its out of fear. You really have to except the fact that you may /more than likely will get cut,broken or shot. Its alot easier on the brain to say " ill just draw,, dbl tap as your retreating yelling "stop" or some junk and not think that the bad guy may not show his intentions untill he is on top of you...
random thoughts... |
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I'd likely blow someone away long before it got to that level of proximity. As above, don't bring hands to a gunfight. What happens when they kick the stall door of the public shitter open, snatch your hair, and drag your ass out while you're in the middle of dropping a log? How about some nutbag asshole who walks up behind you in the McDonald's line, and just for fun, cuffs you one right in the side of the head, leaving you disoriented? What happens when you get grabbed from behind inn one of these various choke holds, and someone starts putting you out like a light? Will you break the hold, or will you flail wildly for your piece, possibly managing to draw and stop your attacker, or more likely dropping the gun, or firing rounds into the concrete before you pass out? We don't always get to pick out proximity, or our fights. I, for one, am all for defending myself with a firearm when it is up to me. I also realize that it's not always up to me. Therefore it makes sense to have other options. The idea that 'two is one, one is none,' applies to types of self defense, as well as weapons themselves. |
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be prepared for all situations.. right..
have food have shelter have a gun to protect you and your loved ones... learn to use it... have a knife just in case... learn to use it. have striking/grappling skills just in case.. train train train its fun and will keep you and your whole family in shape. |
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I'd likely blow someone away long before it got to that level of proximity. As above, don't bring hands to a gunfight. Likely? Or hopefully? We all agree that in the ideal situation your bad guy with a mile long police record comes with a deadly weapon and stands still for you to shoot. Safe to say most of us here carry a gun AND a fighting capable knife. But sometimes things end up too close ( you can't control what may or may not happen in the future) and that's why you need to be at least somewhat proficient at hand to hand fighting. At three or four yards if the attacker moves fast he's on you before you register you are being attacked at all. (I'm not even mentioning the Tueller Drill) Take a look at your average sidewalk for example. How wide is it? A guy walking normally in the middle of it, you coming in the opposite direction, what's the maximum distance you have pass each other by? The guy looks normal, not high or anything, even well dressed. He walks right by you and when he’s about to pass next to you, he attacks. Doesn’t matter if you can draw in 0.8 seconds, you are now in a hand to hand fight. And even if you mean to create distance to shoot, you’ll need to apply h2h skill to create the minimum distance, to at least get the guy a bit away from you. And we are not even considering the worst case situation, the attacker being a skilled wrestler or grappler. If he is and you are not, gun or no gun you are screwed. If you even participated in a shooting class where they did close range FOF, you’d see this clearly. At least to me, it opened my eyes to see how excellent shooters got nailed by unarmed attackers every time on FOF because they didn’t know how to fight. This all sounds all hypothetical but it isn’t. This is the way many local criminals end up stealing guns from lone cops ( and sometimes killing them) A couple walk by and jump on him when they get close enough. If they plan it right there’s little the cop can do. FerFAL |
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Killing unarmed people is not a good thing. Tj ^ What he said. Unless you can prove it was a death risk beyond reasonable doubt ( enraged mob of some sort looking to beat you to death, for example) and not just an ordinary fist fight, shooting an unarmed man is a good way to end up in jail for a long period of time. FerFAL |
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Well since you guys are down this path, if you took your CCW course they should have explained in most states a punch in the face is not just cause for using deadly force. Killing unarmed people is not a good thing. Tj yeah you gotta have a adreniline dump and blade at 45 and yell dont you first! 
sorry been hanging in GD to much lately! |
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Well since you guys are down this path, if you took your CCW course they should have explained in most states a punch in the face is not just cause for using deadly force. Killing unarmed people is not a good thing. Tj yeah you gotta have a adreniline dump and blade at 45 and yell dont you first!
sorry been hanging in GD to much lately! This post is worthless without MS Paint diagram showing said GD and said blading at 45 degrees. Damn so have I. The sad part is that the people there really do get caught up in that crap. |
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Well since you guys are down this path, if you took your CCW course they should have explained in most states a punch in the face is not just cause for using deadly force. Killing unarmed people is not a good thing. Tj yeah you gotta have a adreniline dump and blade at 45 and yell dont you first!
sorry been hanging in GD to much lately! This post is worthless without MS Paint diagram showing said GD and said blading at 45 degrees. Damn so have I. The sad part is that the people there really do get caught up in that crap. 
sorry 2 minute mspaint... im still dumping my adenerline...
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I'd likely blow someone away long before it got to that level of proximity. As above, don't bring hands to a gunfight. you sir, are prison bound with that kind of mentality, where knowledge of chokes will be a requirement for survival... You just can't shoot people at will. "self defense" is a technical, tricky, fact-dependant legal position, and good luck to you if you ever find yourself asserting that defense. Sure, rather judged by 12 than carried by 6, but that doesn't justify shooting all threats. |
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Talking about self-defensive skills is good, but you also shouldn't forget what some of it means for you. I know how effective disarms can be so an important thing to remember is if you ever have to hold someone at gunpoint, it might be good to remember that too. Keep them far enough away so they can't pull it on you, and practice some techniques to counter them or prevent them.
BTW, if you do get caught in some of those choke holds, remember that every move has some counters, except the Knot! Nobody escapes the Knot! 
That's from a joke about a high school wrestler who developed the Knot and became unbeatable. Nobody had ever escaped from the Knot, and this other student was scheduled to go up against him that night. He was worried because nobody had ever escaped the Knot, but he was pretty good, and hoped to make the All-State team. But first he had to beat this guy. The match started, and they wrestled for a while, then all of a sudden he finds himself caught in the Knot, and the crowd groaned. He strained as hard as he could, but couldn't move. Then, as the crowd watched, he suddenly got out and pinned the guy who had held him in the Knot. The crowd went wild. After the match, a reporter asked him how he had defeated the "unbeatable" guy. He told the reporter that he felt the guy pinning him, then found himself stuck in the knot. He couldn't move a muscle and could think of nothing else to do until he looked right in front of his nose and realized he was facing a crotch. So he did the only thing he could think of. He bit down hard, and the rest is history. The reporter said, "Amazing, you beat the Knot by biting him in the crotch?" The kid said, "No, that wasn't HIS crotch in front of my face. It was mine."
The fight often goes to the person willing to go the extra mile and do what it takes to win.
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TobyLazur wrote: those are all nice to have in your tool box. Be aware that these will only work with certain types of clothing. Most of these chokes are really effective on someone wearing a denim jacket, but won't work on many other types of clothing. I'd definately consider them in the 'sport' category. You can easily rip/strech a collar making these chokes no longer effective. I wouldn't doubt in using them if the situation permits. Unless teh cotton is rotting, the material will hold, just grab a nice chunk of it when doing it. 
FerFAL I've personally ripped collars off of different types of shirts. I'm not even a big guy! Before you expect something like this to work, give it a try. Sure the guy will be uncomfortable, but will you really put him out? Have you ever tried to use some sweaty fat guy's t-shirt collar to choke him before? Have you ever grabbed a chiropractor by the lapel of his sport coat and thrown him before? I'd experiment with all these moves before I'd trust them in a real fight. |
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Being a bouncer in a club (by night student by day) I can tell you that chokes are my go to move when anyone starts a fight or becomes aggressive towards me or a fellow staff member. They are very effective and take the fight out of a person fast. I use all of those and also one I have invented myself or never seen anywhere else that allows good transition.
Basically from the back or side you hook one arm around their neck with your forearm digging into their throat and short part of the arm into the side of their neck. You then use your other arm and place it onto the back of the persons head where the neck and head meet. You pull with the far arm and push with the close one and grab your close arms elbow with an overhand grip and squeeze it While at the same time using your close hand and grabbing the far arm on the tricep. It forms a brutal X-type choke of sorts and allows for a very effective choke which can then be transitioned into many other chokes, holds, or takedowns. You can use this choke and then follow it up with a takedown. You have good head control and can easily do a hip toss and land in a dominat position. After hip tossing you can immediatly bury your forearm which was just your "close" one in the X-type choke into the persons throat again or begin raining down knees to the head. Or whatever else you choose. I've used this very effectivley before. |
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I've personally ripped collars off of different types of shirts. I'm not even a big guy! I think we all did that at one time or another for some reason. That doesn’t mean a shirt or t Shirt will forcibly rip when you do it. If done right, more than likely it will hold, not tear. Before you expect something like this to work, give it a try.
I’ve tried it. I’d show it to anyone that’s willing to try it too, until he tap. Sure the guy will be uncomfortable, but will you really put him out?
If done right yes. I did use it until the other person tapped out after unsuccessfully trying to free themselves. Have you ever tried to use some sweaty fat guy's t-shirt collar to choke him before?
I’ve tried it on a pretty big sweaty guy, but it wasn’t fat, mostly muscle. If big muscled guy works for you then yes, I’ve tried it. Same results.
Have you ever grabbed a chiropractor by the lapel of his sport coat and thrown him before?
No, I think he was an orthodontist. Seriously. You say it wont work based on what? A throw move you did with some guy grabbing him by the lapel ( I can see how that would fail) or did you try one of the chokes I posted and the fabric tore? ( not as likely as the first case you describe) I tear old ( and some not so old) shirt and t shirt all the time for gun rags. That’s totally different from grabbing a chunk of fabric and pretty much using it like a fat rope to choke a guy. What DID you do? I’ve tried it and it works. Can a shirt tear; specially if it’s the first time you try it in anything other than martial arts clothes? sure. Can a meteor hit me in the head and kill me right now? Not likely but who knows? Is the possibility of an accident or failure enough of an excuse not to learn and apply in a fight a proven choke move used for decades ? No. You learn new stuff and practice it with a partner or in class to use it if necessary. The more you practice ( with ordinary clothes) the more likely you’ll do it successfully. One case where you tore someone clothes is in no way a rule, and it does not justify ignoring moves that can indeed come in handy. 
YMMV, but if you ignore anything that can or has failed in the past, that mileage is short indeed. FerFAL |
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Being a bouncer in a club (by night student by day) I can tell you that chokes are my go to move when anyone starts a fight or becomes aggressive towards me or a fellow staff member. They are very effective and take the fight out of a person fast. I use all of those and also one I have invented myself or never seen anywhere else that allows good transition. Basically from the back or side you hook one arm around their neck with your forearm digging into their throat and short part of the arm into the side of their neck. You then use your other arm and place it onto the back of the persons head where the neck and head meet. You pull with the far arm and push with the close one and grab your close arms elbow with an overhand grip and squeeze it While at the same time using your close hand and grabbing the far arm on the tricep. It forms a brutal X-type choke of sorts and allows for a very effective choke which can then be transitioned into many other chokes, holds, or takedowns. You can use this choke and then follow it up with a takedown. You have good head control and can easily do a hip toss and land in a dominat position. After hip tossing you can immediatly bury your forearm which was just your "close" one in the X-type choke into the persons throat again or begin raining down knees to the head. Or whatever else you choose. I've used this very effectivley before. this is called the "rear naked choke" and it's cool you stumbled upon it without being trained, but this is certainly not new. There are variations of this choke I use when I'm choking a trained fighter, and there are many defenses to it. |
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this is called the "rear naked choke" and it's cool you stumbled upon it without being trained, but this is certainly not new. There are variations of this choke I use when I'm choking a trained fighter, and there are many defenses to it. Do you know any effective move to escape from it? I used it in a real fight once and the guy tried everything: Clawing to the face ( I managed to keep the face far enough and covered my eyes with my shoulder, he clawed to my neck with the fingers, but didn’t achieve much, other than some red finger marks ), kicking me in the groin with the heel ( rotating the hips some was enough to keep the groin away ) , body slamming me against the walls( that one was the toughest to withstand, but the coke did it’s thing soon enough) , but still could get away. I let him go when I felt he lost strength and the knees buckled. Same thing happens to me when I try to escape from it, always end up tapping out. FerFAL |
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this is called the "rear naked choke" and it's cool you stumbled upon it without being trained, but this is certainly not new. There are variations of this choke I use when I'm choking a trained fighter, and there are many defenses to it. Do you know any effective move to escape from it? I used it in a real fight once and the guy tried everything: Clawing to the face ( I managed to keep the face far enough and covered my eyes with my shoulder, he clawed to my neck with the fingers, but didn’t achieve much, other than some red finger marks ), kicking me in the groin with the heel ( rotating the hips some was enough to keep the groin away ) , body slamming me against the walls( that one was the toughest to withstand, but the coke did it’s thing soon enough) , but still could get away. I let him go when I felt he lost strength and the knees buckled. Same thing happens to me when I try to escape from it, always end up tapping out. FerFAL Ferdinand, if you let him sink his wrist under your chin, your half way gone...if he does you can use "two on one" use both your hands to attack his OTHER hand so he can't comb your hair and go behind your head with it. once you can gain some kind of control over his hand going to the back of your head you can reach up with your strong hand and pull his wrist down enough to tuck your chin. If he puts one arm under yours to get "over/under" you can secure that arm and then roll to that side, putting your weight on his arm. If he crosses ankles, so do you and break his bottom ankle... If you can get your chin tucked you can gain a few seconds while he is sinking the choke, take my lfeft hand and grasp his left foot, sink my left elbow into his inner calf, take my right hand and add to the left hand's force, I can dislocate an ankle but no one has ever continued with the choke, they always let it go and ask me how the hell did you do that... If someone gets his hooks in and you know over/under is coming, you can take your (for example) right hand, the back of your right hand to be exact, and cover your LEFT ear...(try it and it will make sense) then take your left hand, reach over your head and grab your right ear. Just a couple!!! Come to SC and I will show you! We can go to the Gracie gym and I'll get you a complimentary lesson...(I'm just a white belt, nobody special but there are couple blue belts and one black belt there who play with me like a cat plays with a ball of yarn! (not that you need a lesson, .just sayin...)
by the way, the debate you guys are having about tearing T-shirt collars is why you also train in something called "no-gi" just using your body, no clothing. |
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The basic escape for the rear naked choke is the "two on one." Reach up and grab the top hand with both of your hands and pull it away. You can also reduce the pressure by shrugging your shoulders up and pushing your chin down. If you can create enough space your final goal is to spin into the arm that is choking you.
The modified rear naked choke where you place the top hand behind the head is more difficult to pull off because you can't just reach up and grab it. Instead you want to try to push the elbow up. The choke works quick and you won't have your wits with you so really the only way you are going to succeed in escaping is if you practice it a lot. You want it to become muscle memory. Since that isn't going to happen unless you train it regularly for hours on end your best bet is to prevent it from happening in the first place. Your first goal is to tuck your chin and shrug your shoulders up to make it difficult if not impossible for an arm to get under your chin. From there you want to work two on one to prevent him from getting both arms in position. Even if he gets under your chin with one arm you can't be successfully choked out if he can't apply leverage with the second arm. |
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this is called the "rear naked choke" and it's cool you stumbled upon it without being trained, but this is certainly not new. There are variations of this choke I use when I'm choking a trained fighter, and there are many defenses to it.
It is called Shime-waza, specificly hadaka-jime. In the form you are using it, you may want to find a good lawyer. You will wind up facing a at least a manslaughter charge. If you apply the technique even right there is a very good chance of your uke breaking his neck. It was taught in Police circles, until LA had a few deaths of perps. It is all well and good to work on techniques by yourself. Only in this society where lawsuits abound, you will be asked to show creditals and how you were taught various techniques. And act as simple as plaicng handcuffs on someone, requires you be able to name all the parts and demonstrate the proper use. If I was the plaintiff's attorney I would have a field day with you. No formal training is not a plus. In my sensei's dojo we had people in the 1960s come down an claim to be self taught black belts. They aways wound up on the losing end as they never learned ko budo form the books they read. This one aspect seperates those that know from those that claim to know |
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Well since you guys are down this path, if you took your CCW course they should have explained in most states a punch in the face is not just cause for using deadly force. Killing unarmed people is not a good thing. Tj yeah you gotta have a adreniline dump and blade at 45 and yell dont you first!
sorry been hanging in GD to much lately! This post is worthless without MS Paint diagram showing said GD and said blading at 45 degrees. Damn so have I. The sad part is that the people there really do get caught up in that crap. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/protus/45blade.jpg sorry 2 minute mspaint... im still dumping my adenerline... No wonder the guy can't hit the screen, he doesn't have any eyes!!!
For our friend that never lets anyone within 15 yards of him, I would like to know where he lives. It sounds like a nice place, plenty of room. I teach martial arts/fireams for a living, and have been in hundreds of Use of Force incidents. I have seen hundreds of incidents, where the fight goes to the ground. It is where over half of the fight that I have witnessed/been involved in, go to. We have no mats, refs to stop the fight or rules for our bad guys. I have been involved with my current career for over 20 years, with 15+ being involved in the raining aspect. No I did not start fight club, but I love to get into a good scrape |
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this is called the "rear naked choke" and it's cool you stumbled upon it without being trained, but this is certainly not new. There are variations of this choke I use when I'm choking a trained fighter, and there are many defenses to it.
It is called Shime-waza, specificly hadaka-jime. In the form you are using it, you may want to find a good lawyer. You will wind up facing a at least a manslaughter charge. If you apply the technique even right there is a very good chance of your uke breaking his neck. It was taught in Police circles, until LA had a few deaths of perps. It is all well and good to work on techniques by yourself. Only in this society where lawsuits abound, you will be asked to show creditals and how you were taught various techniques. And act as simple as plaicng handcuffs on someone, requires you be able to name all the parts and demonstrate the proper use. If I was the plaintiff's attorney I would have a field day with you. No formal training is not a plus. In my sensei's dojo we had people in the 1960s come down an claim to be self taught black belts. They aways wound up on the losing end as they never learned ko budo form the books they read. This one aspect seperates those that know from those that claim to know For those of us who don't speak "Judo" it's called rear naked choke... 
As far as training on your own, I don't and I don't recommend anyone else do either. (did anyone in this thread suggest that?) You simply can't. You have to have someone who knows what he is doing instructing, and a class with different body types to "roll" with. Regarding the last comment, those who know v. claim to know, Hard to tell, but I assume you are referring to me....I don't claim to know much at all...in fact, I'm a dumb country boy....but no worries, come to columbia and you can teach me many things...
OH, and I don't have any books on this stuff...Can you bring yours?
Edit: when you look up rear naked choke in wiki it brings up the alternate name used in Judo - hadaka-jime... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke So "the wind" OK by you if we mortals just call it rear naked choke?...so it seems we call it tomato, you call it tomato... |
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I've personally ripped collars off of different types of shirts. I'm not even a big guy! I think we all did that at one time or another for some reason. That doesn’t mean a shirt or t Shirt will forcibly rip when you do it. If done right, more than likely it will hold, not tear. Before you expect something like this to work, give it a try.
I’ve tried it. I’d show it to anyone that’s willing to try it too, until he tap. Sure the guy will be uncomfortable, but will you really put him out?
If done right yes. I did use it until the other person tapped out after unsuccessfully trying to free themselves. Have you ever tried to use some sweaty fat guy's t-shirt collar to choke him before?
I’ve tried it on a pretty big sweaty guy, but it wasn’t fat, mostly muscle. If big muscled guy works for you then yes, I’ve tried it. Same results.
Have you ever grabbed a chiropractor by the lapel of his sport coat and thrown him before?
No, I think he was an orthodontist. Seriously. You say it wont work based on what? A throw move you did with some guy grabbing him by the lapel ( I can see how that would fail) or did you try one of the chokes I posted and the fabric tore? ( not as likely as the first case you describe) I tear old ( and some not so old) shirt and t shirt all the time for gun rags. That’s totally different from grabbing a chunk of fabric and pretty much using it like a fat rope to choke a guy. What DID you do? I’ve tried it and it works. Can a shirt tear; specially if it’s the first time you try it in anything other than martial arts clothes? sure. Can a meteor hit me in the head and kill me right now? Not likely but who knows? Is the possibility of an accident or failure enough of an excuse not to learn and apply in a fight a proven choke move used for decades ? No. You learn new stuff and practice it with a partner or in class to use it if necessary. The more you practice ( with ordinary clothes) the more likely you’ll do it successfully. One case where you tore someone clothes is in no way a rule, and it does not justify ignoring moves that can indeed come in handy.
YMMV, but if you ignore anything that can or has failed in the past, that mileage is short indeed. FerFAL I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you man. Hell, we don't even live in the same country. I'm not saying these chokes don't work; I've choked out people with a bunch of these! I just think these are not the end all be all. There are better chokes to use in a street fight. |
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Toby, I'd love to hear your take on other chokes - you talking about head and arm, arm triangle, cross collar? when I say 'other chokes', I mean chokes that don't rely on clothing to be effective. The arm triangle works pretty good if you can wrap the person up. Rear naked is always super effective, surprisingly the guillotine presents it's self quite often when you're fighting someone who's gased and has poor technique. I like the triangle when you're on your back because it leaves you with a couple of options if the choke doesn't work(arm bar, and up kick). There are also two others that I like, although they are kind of slow, but I can't remember their names. One is like the rear naked, but the back of their neck is in the crook of your arm, and the hand you'd normally place on the back of their head makes a fist and pushes on their neck (or adam's apple if really don't like the guy). The second is when you're cross mounted and they're up almost on their side; grab one of your opponent's wrists so you're pulling their arm across their body with their wrist ending by their ear (under/around their head). Your other arm goes in the 'hole' or space left after pulling his arm across and blades on his neck. Now pull with the arm that's grabbed his wrist, and push with the arm that's blading in a scissoring action. You'll now be choking him with one of your arms, and one of your own arms. I know they probably sound confusing written down (they look confusing typed out). all that being said, joint locks are still faster and arguably more devastating. I'm glad this thread popped up. I'm justing getting back into jiu jitsu, and now that college classes are breaking for the semester, I can get back into the gym and do some more no gi stuff! I'm realizing how lacking it is when I can only come up with a few chokes I might actually use with no gi! |
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<––––––––––––––––Martial Arts, TKD/Hopkido/Judo (Hopkido mainly had to take TKD to get into Hopkido) TKD and Hopk. won't do anything for you in a fight. they just won't. they are all about form and presentation. I've taken TKD champions down in seconds before because they were too worried about getting their foot right or trying to land a kick with the perfect amount of arc. I took both TKD and Hopk. after having my but handed to me in a street fight i realized it just doesn't work. I switched to a purely offensive combat style something like Krav Maga, Systema, SamBo, ect. the only unfair fight it the one you loose. fight dirty, and go for any and all shots available. trust me chokes work. you get a man in a triangle hold and use him as a shield his buddies aren't going to be trying to punch you and kick you so hard... not to mention you can just drop him once he is out cold and go for man number two. and so on and so on... another thing is h2h combat is knowing where you are king. I'm a standing fighter. A lot of poeple are ground fighters. I got my but handed to me sparring with a buddy of mine Wednesday as a matter of fact. He is a BJJ fighter. he does ground work. I was taught self defense and "dirty" tactics using MMA. Sure enough first couple of rounds I was wearing his tell out... round three he got me on the ground and tore me a new one. It was all I could do just to keep up with the stupid monkey... he ended up wearing me out so bad I had to tap out.. I was exhausted... So it's important to know where you can fight to... |