Posted: 8/17/2008 4:28:49 PM EDT
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Ok here is what I was thinking. I have 4 family members I would like to make sure are safe for SHTF. They do not think it will happen and they live close by. I was thinking for making survival battle packs for them. (not letting them know) Oh and where two of them live is my bug out location. Here is what I was thinking for each person. 1. Mosin Nagant- 91/30 or M44 Ammo is cheap. Hard hitting. Can kill deer and people if needed. Long range as well. 2. SKS- Mid to short range. Cheap ammo. fast shooting 3. CZ 52 or CZ 82- Short range back up pistol. Cheap ammo and easy to handle. What do you think? I know ammo might be hard to come by in a true SHTF but then you can reload and if you had to shoot a person you could take there weapon and ammo as well. IS there a different surplus weapon you would use? How much ammo would be good for each weapon per person? Tell me what you think. What would you change? |
| The SKS is an awfully good carbine for the money. Hits with authority and is 100% reliable with minimal care. I've never been much of a M-N fan. IMO the bolt manipulation is cumbersome and they kick harder than you'd expect for the cartridge's ballistics. If your family members aren't "into guns," I'd pass on the M-N. I'm not too hot for the pistol choices either. Oddball cartridges and ho hum wound ballistics leave me cold. The CZ-52 has a nasty bark too, so it may not be the best choice for non gun enthusiasts just like the M-N rifle. I'd recommend police trade-in 9mm's. Sure they'll cost more than the CZ's but the ammo is everywhere and you'll get a popular design with plenty of spare parts availability. |
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1 rifle is all I would give for handouts. I would stick to a bolt action for people that have no experience shooting. Easier to maintain and less to go wrong. I have a few #4 MK 1 Enfields stashed.  Less bang than the Mosin and a much shorter rifle.A M44? Damn, that's a heck of a kick for a handout rifle. A pistol takes training to load and shoot. If these people have never shot a gun before, stick to the bolt action. Av. |
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You should get into your mind and language that you shoot to STOP people not kill them. The SKS is a fine carbine. But cost 2-3 times as much as the M-N. Frankly for non-shooters. I would get them Marlin 60 or 10/22's and a used 9mm pistol. You can always take the "Liberator" strategy. Ammo is common and cheap. And parts abound. Frankly non shooters are not going to be that interested and will not be making much in the way of distance shots. This would allow them to train, hunt, and learn on a platform that is easy to shoot. You never mentioned how much you wanted to spend. If you have extra cash put up some SKS's. But if they are not gun people now then they won't turn into ones later. At least this way they would have something to shoot and easy to learn on. And it is better than nothing. And they would be more likely to practice. I took my boy shooting for the first time today and some moron was having his wife shoot high power rifles, she got bit by a scope and she was a non shooter. He seemed like he could care less. No eye or ear protection. She was scared of guns (had a ND with a 30.06 in the house once) but WANTED to learn. I let her shoot my 10/22 and she LOVED it. She took 1-2 shots from .270 and 30.06 bolt actions and was not having fun. She had a grin ear to ear with the 10/22. If the hubby had ANY brains he would get her something SHE liked, and was easy to shoot. She HAS an interest and he is going to kill it. She also liked the AR. I know it is kinda off topic, but here was a person who wanted to learn and was being given the wrong tools and training. She was open minded like someone in a SHTF situation may be, once they see the need. I would rather have 2 people who like and know how to shoot a 10/22 than 10 who have an SKS or M-N who don't practice and are afraid of the kick. Is a .22 a good self defense or battle cartridge hell no. It is better than a sharp stick. A child with a scope and some training can take accurate shots, and keep tangos heads down. Nothing is going to be the best solution and I bet that money is an issue hense the surplus guns questions. If you really want to put something up for non shooters then thats what I would do. M-N: $70 SKS: $250 CZ-82: $200 Total: $520 Not including ammo, mags, SHIPPING, etc. Plus the ammo will be difficult to impossible to get if you can't order it so all you will need will have to be stocked or reloaded. Ruger 10/22: $200 +OR- Sig Sauer p225/P6 from AIM: $270 Total: $470. Not including ammo mags shipping tax etc. But you can find and will be able to get ammo nearly anywhere. Easy to train on. Easy to find mags and parts, and more likely to be USED. And just as capable of using it to get battlefield pick ups. You would spend the same or less and get more bang for your buck. Maybe just get a couple SKS's to round it out. But non gun people are most likely going to keep being non-gun people. But if they change they have something to barter with, and can be used for defense. Even though .22 is not the est cartridge for that. Just an idea. |
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If you are going to have hand out guns, you need hand out gear as well. Just simple stuff, like a basic LBE set with some way to carry ammo and water. They will need some way to carry ammo and such. You can get a good inexpensive LBE set as low as $10. Nothing tacticool, but durable and functional. |
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Police trade in 9mm. /situation with foreign or hostile occupation: Easy to use, easy to conceal, easy to find ammo. Just like the Jews in Warsaw found out, it's not the gun you have, it's the gun you can take off the dead Nazi you just dropped with the POS handgun you have. We dropped guns into France for this very purpose in WWII  /situation with breakdown in order and lack of food: There won't likely be enough game for aaaaaallllllll the people in the woods looking to feed their families. Giving a rifle to a person not versed in firearms would be a waste of your resources. |
+1 What he said. I've been buying complete LBE setups on ebay for years for about $10 each.plus shipping When SHTF I plan on being able to equip dozens of evil minions. I'm currently taking applications. 
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if you're going to hand out the less common (e.g., mosin) calibers make sure you stack the ammo deep. the 7.62x39 for the sks would be easier to find, but any caliber will disappear quickly. i'm not sure on prices, but you may want to look into a lever action 30-30. |
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Mosin: Definitely cheap to buy and to feed. I don'te recommend it. There are two major flaws when used by 'novice' shooters. The rimmed cartridge can cause feeding failures. If the shooter uses stripper clips incorrectly (unside down) or loads clips incorrectly you end up with a rim over base problem and a hung up rifle. The lack of a decent safety is the other issue. The additional power (compared to an SKS) is NOT a benefit, its a handicap (for new users). Muzzle flash is bad... SKS. its the way to go. Shop around. You can score them cheap. I found two new yugos for $150 each. Ammo is cheap, the gun is reliable, it has a decent safety, and it works well. CZ52. Forget it. Ergonomics of a brick. Shop local shops. Look for police trade ins. You can score a used S&W revolver cheaply enough. I strongly favor 3" J frames and K frames. I've found several in nearly new condition for $100-$130... |
Would you like references sent with the application? |
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Up until recently, my brother has only had a handgun for defense and the usual hunting weapons shotgun and .22lr. One Christmas hard pressed to come up with a gift, I gave him a M44 since he was lacking a large caliber with some distance to it. He's in OH and they can't hunt with rifles. He not only like the little carbine with its monster kick but has now bought 1903. I guess my point is a lot of folks shoot guns just don't always see the need for a military style weapon. They don't always see Red Dawn or hordes of zombies being feasible. Give them a rifle and sometimes they see the other benefits. Tj |
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I am pretty good with a Mosin, and I would never feel sorry for myself with my Finn 91/30 or M39. But not everyone would do so well. I think SKS is a better choice. I haven't seen anyone mention M48s or other Mausers. They are easier to load from clips and have less problems. LBE is too easy. Some clips and a cleaning kit in a shoulder bag are all you really need. |
Here's my list for what I call my "Minuteman Box". A smaller version of my personal go bag for my AR or FAL. All packed together in a small plastic bin. Grab a rifle and a box together, you're good to go for a while. I'd like to get a couple together to go with hand-out Enfields or Garands. Then I come to my senses. Then I want to do it. Then I come to my senses. repeat... Minuteman Box/Cache - Enfield (Garand box is the same just replace Garand clips for Enfield clips) Item - # Stripper Clips w/5 rounds each - 2 with rifle Belt w/Pouches - 1 (Garand style small pockets, CTD sells them but not on their website) Holds Stripper clips w/5 rounds each - 20 Shoulder Bag (like CountyComm EOD bag) holds the rest: - Folding knife - 1 - Combat flashlight - 1 - Water bottle in pouch - 1 - Hat - Blowout kit in pouch - 1 -- Israeli Bandage - 2 -- Kerlix - 2 -- Gloves - 1 - Boo-Boo kit in ziplock -- bandaids -- vet wrap -- Ibuprophin -- Benadryl -- chapstick -- Sunscreen -- Insect repellent - Misc stuff in ziplock -- Earplugs -- Flat Duct tape -- Large trash bag -- Keychain light -- pencil -- Sharpie marker -- Notepad - Food in ziplock (or MRE) -- Powerbars -- Tuna packet -- MRE crackers - Gun cleaning kit in ziplock -- Boresnake or sectioned rod w/brush -- CLP small bottle -- Bandanna or rag - 2 - VPI rustfree bag for rifle in ziplock (for caching) - 1 Extra ammo in bandoliers if needed |
| All of the people I was wanting to take care of with the hand-outs have all shot big and small guns before. My mother is a jailer and she carries a 9mm glock. My dad hunts with a 30-30 and he has a .22 pistol. My brother and my sister do not own guns but have shot many times before. |
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I'd have no issue handing out Mil-surps in SHTF situations. Though my M-N's would be down near the bottom of the list of what I'd hand out. Mauser's are nicer, as are Enfields, '03's, Garands, etc. Ditto SKS's, though they do lack range. My M38 might come out, though, I've got a scout scope on it, Handy little Carbine that way. Of course, I collect Milsurps, so there's no 'buying' for me, it's just 'what do I give Dad' if he shows up, or some other friends if they show up un-or-under armed. I think you're as likely, to have a 'prepped' friend show up without his preps (can't get to them, etc) as you are to have sheeple show up. My best-prepared friend could easily show up with nothing more than what was in his truck and his CCW. Best to have something to hand people like that. |
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"Winchester 73" theres a good indian fight scene where they are able to repel an attack by the use of fast repeating fire which is really ones only defense if you are not behind something that can stop a bullet. I think the money would be better spent on 1 more modern weapon magazine fed or a good hunting rifle & scope where you can explode a melon at 350+ yards. not everyone needs to carry a rifle but those who do should carry the most advanced money can afford. s&w model 10 revolvers cheap and safe to hand out to, remember the Band of brothers scene where the guy finally got his luger. In the end it's your pantry fill it with things you like. |
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Not to rain on your parade, but I think that if someone doesn't see the need to own a firearm in the first place, then its highly unlikely that someone will even pull the trigger when the time comes. When I was in the police academy, we were told "You ought to be concerned about the guy with the lever action he's had for the past 35 years than the the young guy with the kicky-go fast rifle". I suppose we could debate that to death, but the point is that weapons and gear are useless without training and mindset. I say, don't go out of your way to spend your money on guns for them, but figure out what useful skills they do have, and find a way to accent them. |
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True, but that good ole boy with his 30-30, if he is anything like the rest of the ones I know, will have at best 20-30 rounds for it set back- if that. So giving him something that is better able to be resupplied gets you the best of both worlds. |
Agreed, but what do you give some metrosexual who doesn't see the need to own a gun? Coincidentally, you'll be happy to know I just placed and order to CMP for more 30-06. If you really want to talk about a surplus weapon for SHTF, I think you're hard pressed to beat the M1. Non-corrosive brass cased ammo is still priced nicely, and no one ever questioned the lethality of 30-06. |
Give him Jim-Bobs 30-30 with the 6 rounds left.
Ohh yes. I love my Garands. |
| I have a few Mosins. They're at the bottom of my handout list. To be honest I'd probably try to trade them. I prefer SKSs and CZ52s. They can both be bought shipped to your door with a C&R FFL. They're both ridiculously cheap for what you get. CZ52 ammo is cheaper than any other centerfire pistol ammo on the market right now so there's no excuse not to stock up. The price on 7.62x39 has gone up over the last few years but it's still the cheapest new manufacture centerfire rifle ammo on the market (except for maybe 5.45x39). Get yourself a high quality AK and learn to shoot it and have a few SKSs in the back of your gun cabinet "just in case". |
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most of us all have more than one rifle, and generally all the associated gear that gors with it. my freinds in on my preps are the same. there are plenty of circumstances i can see them or their family showing up with limited resources. those rifles are for them. if it comes to the point of "NEEDING" a full blown lbe and kit, for everyone there will likely be plenty on the ground 
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You get what you pay for though. Wolf 7.62 x 39 is underpowered, and inaccurate. Great for plinking, but not sure I'd trust my life to it. The political situation being what it is, it wouldn't take much for a ban on the importation of ammo. You're pretty much screwed then. |
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frankly, i don't see the need for handout secondary weapons. a pistol is a very poor substitute for a rifle in the vast majority of situations, and if the time comes that you're arming an entire family, there willl be enough trouble to warrant the carriage of rifles. buy 4 SKS and spend the rest on ammo/parts/training. |
wolf isn't the only manufacturer of 7.62x39, so even if there was a ban you could still get it, just as easily as 5.56. price wise, comparing apples to apples, winchester 7.62x39 is w/i $1 of winchester 5.56. the inaccuracy comment is true if you are talking match, but if you're talking SHTF, then i'd argue it groups well enough at distance. at least it does when i shoot it out of my sks. |
With all due respect you shot to STOP the attacker from what he is doing. If he happens to expire that is a side effect. It is a dis-service to firearms owners in general to portray gun owners as trigger happy red necks just looking for a chance to kill someone. EVERY SINGLE defensive firearms class I have taken, from a number of instructors, EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. made a BIG point to mention this. The emphisis was THEIRS. I have taken classes with LEO instructors, Ex-LEO instructors and non-leo instructors. They all made it a point to say the same thing. Is it an issue in a Mad Max kind of world, who is going to argue semantics. But in any type of situation where law and order is likely to come back it could mean the difference bewteen guilty and not guilty. You don't want a forum post to come back and make you look like you wanted to kill people. In a self defense situation if you shoot an attacker and he is alive but STOPS what he is doing you will probablybe ok. If you go and pop him another time to finish him off, then that could get you charged with murder. Local laws vary. Again talking about anythign other than a Mad Max type world. I am NOT talking about "sooting them in the leg" or other such nonsense. But shooting to STOP the threat. If the threat stops because the assailant died that is one thing. But the goal is to stop the attack. It is a subtle difference in word choice but changes the perception of the person who is listening. I agree that if you are puling the trigger it better be life or death (unless you are in TX as you can defend your property there). But your INTENT is to simply STOP the attack. This is smart to use the language for both legal reasons and in how we are portrayed in general. No one here is talking about going around just killing people cause they needed killen. |
i completely agree with this. the basis for defensive shooting is to end the threat, not to do such-and-so to the other person. if i get charged by a bear, my goal is to keep shooting until the bear is no longer a threat. often, this means killing the bear, but my goal isn't to kill the bear, it is to end the threat. if the bear dies, so be it. but it doesn't matter to me whether or not the bear dies, so long as the threat is ended. but if he jumps on his unicycle and rides away, the threat is over for the time being. i think the same is true for human assailants. i want to incapacitate them--to eliminate their capacity to do me harm. as a defensive shooter (not a combat shooter), it makes no difference to me whether that incapacitation takes the form of his death or simply throwing down his weapon and running away--i'm going to shoot until he loses the immediate capacity to do me harm. |
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Why WAIT, I have four grown and married children, they all have an AR, AK and M44 supplied by me. They also have at least one other firearm of their own. If you are HOLDING this stuff, what happens if the people you want to help can't get to you or you are the first victim, then they are SOL. Assuming I live long enough to see my Grandchildren grown I will also make sure they all have something as well from me. |
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I also recommend a 10/22 for non-gun people. Imagine, people who have never shot are facing an armed threat and shooting for their lives. They aren't going to hit anything w/ an M44. Sorry, reality. Its great to have a rifle that is simple, rugged and powerful, but you're friends son't be able to hit targets. The best you can hope for with people who aren't trained is that they can put some lead downrange to keep the enemy's heads down and maybe get a few hits. A 10/22 with 6 30 rd mags and lots and lots of ammo is fairly cheap. You can also train them up with this rifle to be accurate, if time and situation allows, more easily than an M44 or SKS. Plan for the worst case scenario, which for you is no time to train them and they need to engage with coonfidence immediately. |
death is just a productive side effect and a verifiable indicator the threat is "STOPPED" |
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Buy them some cheap single shot or bolt action shotguns. I recently bought 5 of these out of the back of a guys truck at the flea market, rusty but cleaned up OK . One missing a forearm but other 4 are fine. Paid $100 for the bunch. ...While I wouldn't want to get into a firefight armed with a single shot shotgun I think if you are being realistic a shotgun like this would serve the needs most people would have for a gun in a SHTF situation. Will these non gun people really need "battle packs" of rifles and pistols? Is Aunt Alice going to really be getting in shootouts then taking the dead guys gear and ammo?....Going to be doing reloading too?...Come on, Fantasy thinking. Much more likely they will just need a gun to scare him off some bum that is looking for somthing to steal and maybe for shooting a rabbet for the pot.. Shotguns like this are easy to load and use and with different loads a pretty good all purpose gun. ...if you want to spend more money buy them a .22 rifle and a .38 revolver and they certainly then would be all set for just about anything......Todd |
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Here's some food for thought, 1) Your money, get whatever you damn well please. Their going to be the Beggars so they cannot be choosers. 2) Hold monthly shooting matches for family and friends. It's really easy get a bunch of empty plastic drink containers. Fill them up with water and shoot them. After a few of these shoots everyone will know how to use the weapons. Hell I'm getting married Friday and for my bachelor party a bunch of us all went shooting. I taught 2 new guys how to use a pistol and an AK 47. Now their more inclined to get a gun for themselves. Hell I corrupted one of my friends into wanting the S&W from Dirty Harry. See my point here........ 3) From the shooting matches figure out who has the JUDGEMENT AND DISCRETION to use a weapon in combat. Then put them on the "Approved" list. You will really be surprised. It would also be a good idea to explain to your crew the legality's of defensive shooting. A judge and jury looks very poorly on a self defensive shooting case when the criminal was tied, put against a wall and shot. I would start with In the gravest extreame by Massad Ayoob. |