[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Generator suggestions. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/23/2007 12:46:22 PM EDT
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I am not looking for a Generac natural gas system or anything fancy. Looking to keep the price sub $750. Enough to run the fridge, some lights, and a ceiling fan. I have heard 5500w to 7500w is good for this. I am going to be buying it during the Hurricane Tax holiday to save a few bucks. What brands should I stay away from or consider? Edited to add: Hurricane tax break is only good on generators $750 or less. |
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You might want to actually measure how much juice you really need. Kill-A-Watt meter takes out the guess work. Now if you plan to just get a big generator anyway, no problem. But what I see is maybe going to top 1000 watts. Big low-cost generators are really loud (think sitting between two lawnmowers ) and they are gas guzzlers. Just the nature of the beast. You'll hear it a block away. On the other hand, you might want the extra power -- most big units also have 240 volt that could run a central AC But at 120 volt, something like a Honda EU2000i sips gas and has a very low noise output. They are spooky quiet by comparison. Just some random thoughts...hope this helps |
What is the difference between running and max power advertised on this generator:
www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=191635 |
It can handle a running load of 6500 watts and a short "start-up" load of up to 8125 watts |
Kind of like what it sounds, you could draw 6.5k for any length of time and you could spike to 8.125k for a short-short time. They are rated like this beacuse electric motors take alot more energy to start from standstill then they do to run. Sump Pumps, Well Pumps, Furnaces, freezers all have a pretty high draw when starting up. -JTP |
Like when a sump pumps starts up the power draw can be 2-3 times the normal load. Check the watt/amp stickers on a few of your household items link to chart |
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My Coleman/Tecomseh provides good power, but is LOUD and a gas hog. If I had the cash to do it again, I'd probably save more $ and spend on getting a quieter gen because everyone within a few hundred yards of me knows where my gen is when it is on. The gas consumption is also a factor, but less important to me than the security issue of the noise. Saving a couple gallons of gas per incident just doesn't compare to having the generator disappear when you need it most. |
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I'd get the 5K overhead valve HD or Lowes special that way you could have a 10K air conditioner running while you chill your fridge you can cool of the bedroom and maybe even get some through the whole ordeal because you can jump her bones when she's comfortable much eazier than when she's sweaty and bitchy  JMO and experience
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Buy a honda 2000. In the 8 to 900 dollar range. Much quieter than anything else out there, cleaner power, extremely fuel efficient. Running at 1/4 load (about 400 to 500 watts) gives you about 14 hours on a gallon of gas. It's small enough to pickup with one hand and carry it around, and it's a honda. It will handle a fridge, chest freezer, and a couple low-wattage lights, all together, just fine. |
I've got a 7200 Btu/h window AC unit. Says 6.6 amps. Handle it just fine. |
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In my observation, most first-time generator buyers tend to select a bigger generator than they really need. Folks tend to look at all their appliances, add up the wattages of each one, and then assume that they'll need to run them all simultaneously during an emergency. Often, this is a serious mistake, because a large generator consumes a lot more fuel than a small one, even when it is only powering a small load. My suggestion would be to figure out which appliances you NEED during an emergency, and then figure out which ones NEED to be operated simultaneously. For example, you may need to run the fridge and chest freezer for 2 hours several times a day, but you don't necessarily need to run them both at the same time. Next, select a generator that meets these needs, plus perhaps 20 percent extra for unanticipated loads. This strategy could easily save you hundreds of gallons of fuel during a short-duration emergency, or thousands of gallons during an extended one. BOTTOM LINE: The smallest generator size that meets all reasonable power needs is usually the best one. For most folks, this will be something in the 3 to 5 KW range. Anything much above this is often a costly luxury that greatly increases your chances of running out of fuel before you run out of emergency. |
Very good point indeed. While we have the new 12KW (.25 gal/hr) diesel to power the entire house, we also have a eu2000i running around as well. The latter does a great job of running fridges and the like, I keep the big one around because I do like to be able to power the entire house when I feel the need. For the record, the eu2000i models are only super quiet when they are run under the threshold that causes them to kick up into high gear to support the load. But, they are still MUCH more quiet at full load than the typical 5KW 1 banger One major thing to consider though is the fact that units like the eu2000i cannot supply 240V, this is something that is needed by most out there that rely on a well for their water supply (myself being one of those). c0 98% of the population is asleep. The other 2% are staring around in complete amazement, abject terror, or both. falloutshelter653.org |
| 7500w was recommended by an electrical contractor I had look at my new house. I would love to go smaller. I consider my necessities during a power outage to be the well pump, fridge, and ceiling fans. I will be using lanterns, grill, and taking cold showers otherwise. I have been through multiple power outages in the past without a generator, the longest lasting nearly 3 weeks. I have the money and would like to live with some luxuries after a storm instead of hunting down ice and rationing bottled water. |
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Besides what you would like to run during a power outage, there are two other considerations in chosing the right genny for you. The first is and always should be how much fuel you can store vs your projected (best guess) how long you may need your genny to operate. The second is how often you may have the need to use your genny. For most of inland US, that's about once every ten years and a max of about one week. For the southern coastal areas depending on where, that can be once a year for a week and as often as once every ten years for multiple weeks (avg). What that comes down to is those of us in low risk areas can do quite well with less expensive units with our main limitation being gas while those in high risk areas should go for more expensive longer lasting units with the main concern durability over multiple events. I'm not telling you anything new that you are in the high risk area. The one thing that really popped out year before last (bad season) was just how many generators in FL went silent due to lack of fuel. Though I didn't find it all that odd I was very curious about this so during my visit to FL last month talked to a number of people on thier approaches to this topic. Throwing out the just plain dumb answers, I think what I learned may help you some. There were two major approaches to this from those I interviewed I found to be reasonable plans. This doesn't include a couple people I talked to who were in the unique position of having access to fuel no matter what so power thier entire home. The first approach and quite frankly kind of shocked me not the dominate approach is what I think of the minimalist approach. This was a small generator just enough to keep the refridgerator running and a few nice to haves. These people had enough fuel for one week solid running that could be stretched out to 3 weeks if needed. (avg again) Most of these folks had a 2-3 kw genny and about 20 gallons of fuel on hand. The other approach (no I do not consider this unreasonable) is what I think of as I got to have AC a few hours a day approach. The best of these type plans I saw was a 5-8kw wired to their box with about 20 gallons of fuel on hand. That gave them about a 3 day run with limited use of AC at which time they figure though inconvient they can find fuel. Since most of these folks have learned thier lessons the hardway, they had a get fule plan 1,2,3. Now these were typical FL block homes not mansions and the average size gen was 5.5 kww and yep by being prudent they were running thier AC for periods of time during outages. Most of these homes had a 24K btu AC unit thus the size just enough to not only allow a 5.5kw to run the AC but with the AC off the hotwater heater for baths and when running either application no other use. This approach kind of surprised me but does work. I will say some of these people had outstanding setups including a large number of remote starts. They would simply plug the thing in, switch off the rooms they don't intend to use, then fire it up. Then, without leaving thier house shut it off and restart to conserve fuel so they could better plan thier refueling times with emphasis of not having to in the middle of the night. Keep in mind with this approach the key was matching the AC which in this case was 2 ton units in the neighborhood I was in and a 3 ton would take you into the 10Kw range. This two surprised me that the units were so small but then almost none of them were heat pumps but simply AC. This by far was the most typical approach I saw while there. This is my favorite sizing chart: Sizing Chart Another concern I wanted to address while in FL was noise level both from a convience standpoint and security. To my surprise I did not find a high number of low noise generators with the higher priority put on durability (industrial gens). Most addressed this simply with distance and a slightly long 30 amp cord. I was also surprised when asking about the security, after a laugh, the pat answer was you ought to hear this neighborhood when the powers out. I will mention most hookups were in fenced backyards out of sight of the street but basically I got the impression it was playing the odds and alot more people in FL now have generators. I hope this helps you some. Tj |
What kind of diesel generator and can you post pics? |
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I really had to weight the investment to need ratio when I bought my generator. If money was no object, I would have bought one of the new "I" models. I decided to buy entry level low tech and wait for the "I’s" to come down price and add 220v output for the well. The need for a generator is infrequent here. My main concern was running the refrigerator and well. What is the value of the food in the fridge vs the cost of the generator? If the power goes out, the food will be worth a lot more than it's face value. Back in the early 90's we had a hundred year flood. It shut the roads into the valley down. The supermarket was cleaned out in less than 24 hours. I'm sure some of this was panic buying but you would have been out of luck if you had an empty cupboard. I bought a Max Power 4400 (really a 3500) - $400 landed. Report: It is lightly made but well constructed. I start the generator once a month to charge the battery (didn’t want electro start). Every time it starts with one or two pulls and purrs like a kitten. It easily handles multiple loads: a shop vac, worm drive Skill saw and elec. heater all at the same time. I hooked it up to an oscilloscope and was appalled at how dirty the wave form was. Being an engineer, maybe I’m too critical. The wave will power motor driven devices but don’t even think about running your computer with this generator. |
| My generator will have to be in the side yard due to the location of the breaker box. I was planning on making a concrete pad for the generator to sit on with anchor points to lock it down to prevent theft. I am planning on keeping about 20 gallons of fuel on hand during the season and using it up afterwards. My main concern is storage. Is it safe to store in a garage? I don't have a storage shed or other detached storage area. |
To put this into perspective, the garage was made to hold a car and cars have gas tanks. The key here is to use good tanks and rotate the fuel. There are quite a few threads on surplus MIL or MIL type tanks which at 5 gallon seem to be the favorite. 5 gallon is still managable by weight and the tanks are made to last. I personally use the surplus NATO which are doing fine and in my garage. Tj |
Thanks for the report, I actually bought one of the 3,500s myself. Since I'm not in the deep south, I don't plan on running AC but did want to run my ceiling fans along with limited light use and a refridgerator and freezer. This is my second gen with my first being a small minimalist approach (fridge/freezer only). My worse case would be use the little gen as originally planned and the 3,500 to run a window AC unit, however I suspect the 3,500 will do both at least by theory and calculation. At this time, I have zero plans to use generators for delicate electronics. I addressed that issue before I bought my first gen with a battery/inverter/rechargeable approach. Tj |
You don't need that much power for just those items. Several times I have run furnace fan, fridge, freezer, lights, and well pump on a 5500. Sounds like you were over sold or need to run more items. Whit |
Most of the "essentials" like the Fridge, A/C and lighting are items that only require power intermittently - So, it makes sense to run the generator only intermittently, too.
The few cheap generators I've looked at had a waveform that cleaned up considerably whenever a load was present - even a relatively small load. |
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Consider the following choices given your 20 gallon storage: Black Max 6,500/8,125-Watt Portable Generator www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=191635 8-gallon 12 hours runtime at 50% load with 20 gallons = 30 hours run-time Running non-stop = 1.25 days Running 15 hr/day = 2 days Honda EU2000i www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu2000i 1.1 gallons 4 hrs. @ rated load with 20 gallons = 72 hours run-time Running non-stop = 3 days Running 15 hr/day = 4.8 days 15 hrs. @ 1/4 load with 20 gallons = 272 hours run-time Running non-stop = 11+ days Running 15 hr/day = 18 days Seeing how you've been out of power for 3 weeks, would like some luxuries and are set at storing 20 gallons, I'd go with something like the EU2000i. 30 hours of run-time over 3 weeks doesn't sound like much. My best advice however is to talk with your significant other on a desired setup (what to power, how long and a budget). As for the fuel storage, I have an outbuilding that I keep mine in but would suggest to look into something lockable like this to put in the yard: www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/product/product.jhtml?prodId=HPProd100690 Not sure if there are any issues with this or not- maybe someone else knows. |
I do that, but fuel conservation doesn't really figure into it. I do it for stealth/quiet hours reasons...to run a window fan, some compact flouescent lights and deep freeze overnight and not have to have a genset running 24x7. For instance, using an inverter and a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure total kw-hrs...starting with a fully charged battery bank i.e. the charger has saturated the batteries at 14.7 volts and has now gone to float mode, if I draw a 1 kw-hr load from the battery/inverter it takes about *2* kw-hrs of line power to get the battery back to the original charge state. So between the inefficiencies in the battery and charger, that's only about 50% efficient. The flip side is reducing the wear and tear factor on the generator...I can recharge the battery bank in a couple hours of generator running and then shut it off and then go the next twelve hours on battery. The inverter/charger has a max charge rate of just over 100 amps. My typical minimalist loads would be 100 to 150 watts, but I can recharge the batteries at ten times that rate...so just in round numbers I can run the generator 1 hour for every ten hours of battery usage. So the $64,000 question Does it Save Gas? I don't know the answer. My guess is it about breaks even. Running a 2800 watt generator at only a 150 watt load is not going to be the most efficient use. Just in general, a genset is going to be most efficient if it's loaded close to it's rated output. There's an experiment here waiting to be done...basically how much gas would I burn maintaining a 150 watt load powering it directly for 10 hours compared to how much gas would I burn doing a fast recharge to a battery bank that had held that same 150 watt load for 10 hours. Like I said, my guess is about is about break-even. But the added advantage of not racking up long running hours on the generator is less wear and tear, and far longer oil change intervals. Maybe 1_BIG_BUNKER might have some thoughts. He supplements his battery bank with a diesel generator. ETA: Thanks 1_BIG_BUNKER for the description you gave! Makes sense how you do things...when you have a big electrical demand it's being powered directly from generator, so it sidesteps the inefficiency of the charging/inverter/conversion/re-charging loop. |
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I keep forgetting most of you guys live in a city. I live off the "grid" and have to go 30 miles to get groceries. Needless to say, we make lists before we go shopping. If AC is needed then you aren't gonna make it for the long haul imho. Ever watch that tv show Jericho? It isn't even real but they don't have AC. My refrig, stove, and instant hot water heater runs on propane. I also have propane lights which I've never had to use but they are piped into the places we would need if my batteries died for some reason. I'm sure some of those might run on natural gas too. My well pump is 220 (one can switch to a 110 pump too and they usually cost less) and yet I only have a 3,000 watt Honda EU. I get by because of a 400 buck transformer that boosts the current enough for the well pump to fill up my water tanks which also have enough pressure to water my lawn and garden. We just make sure the coffee pot or dishwasher are not on at the same time, or the 2,000 watt Xantrax inverter will shut down everything. The key is to have a propane tank of at least 500 gallon capacity. I use only 5% of my tank per month and it will run all my propane needs for at least 8 months. A thousand gallon tank would keep me going for a year and a half! That means 20 minute hot showers and all the hot water needed anywhere. We also have at least 3 months of canned and dried foods on hand at any one time. If the propane runs out and we can't cook on the stove, then we have a tank of propane for the BBQ or just heat all the food on the wood stove. Our main source of heat is wood but we have a backup propane heater in case we run out of wood. I guess I'm saying, there ic city survival for a few days and then there is rural which is really just an everyday thing for us. BTW, we have a diswahser, computer and a sattelite for HD tv. Except for the deer, moose, bear, eagles, osprey, among other critters, we have everything they have in LA. 
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I have a number of generators. The biggest one turned out to be a clunker of monumental proportions (North Star 8000 watt). Stay away from North Star generators. They are loud as hell and on top of that my circuit board literally melted and North Star said they'd be happy to supply me a new one (board) for $495. LOL. No thanks. The replacement is a Craftsman 6300 watt (9,100 start-up) that is much quieter, better on gas, and is more compact/lighter. I also have a Coleman 5000 and Honda 1000EUi. |
Those Hondas are way out of my price range though. |
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Ops Dam you STOP posting pic's of that set up! You make me twitch and surf the Tracor sites for sales and my wife hides the check book every time I start saying "Come look at this hun, it's how I want our set up to be!". Not getting a tractor this year =/ can't swing it, I h8 you! (not really at all in any way what so ever). Just /jelous! 
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Of course, we would all like to have the best if we can afford it. Add the Yamaha line to the suggestion and I would consider that a pretty good list. Not all of us have budgets for the best. Take a look at the China made Max Tools same company ProTool and a dozen other private labels. They're actually imported by a company in Texas. Those things weren't even on my radar screen till I saw our buddy LRT with one at a SF camp. Surprised the heck of me the model he had not only started easy on a cold rainy day but was quiet. If you are worried about the reliability buy two then if one craps you have another and spare parts. If you can't turn a screwdriver or use a wrench, budget and save for the best. The bottomline having a gen in an outage is better than not. It's natural for the guys here to recommend the best for basically we want the best for our fellow SF members. Tj |
Well, you did say “looking” to keep price sub $750 so that just sounds like a guideline. Really though, some of us here picked up an EU2000i for around $860 total, and when you consider the total cost of ownership its not hard to come out cheaper after some use. For starters, you could save 50 gallons of gas with decent use- at $3/gallon that’s $150. Also, if you want to keep enough fuel for a set runtime (say a week) then you can save by not needing as many fuel containers (decent to good ones go for $15-$40 / 5 gallons). Do some research on the quality as well and how much its going to cost to keep running. The smaller units also have the benefit of needing less storage space and are very mobile so you can use them for other applications. Granted, you do have less power but it sounds like enough for your application (do double check you load requirements). Just saying...
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A brand Kipor is taking the RV arena by storm. They are basically copies of the Honda's with the same benefits and are ~50% less expensive. Just Google Kipor and check eBay for prices. search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=so&sbrftog=1&fnu=1&xpufu=x&from=R10&satitle=kipor&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=81501&fis=2&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=3%26fsoo%3D1 |
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Just got one of these based on reviews from the RV crowd Champion Generator $299, can be picked up at local kragen/schucks/checker if you decide to order online, use coupon code wamu10 for 10% off. I ogt mine for $285 OTD ETA:corrected discount code |
Well, when I designed my system I designed it for ME, not anyone else. So I will tell you what I did. First, I should say that I was not worried about fuel. I planned for, and have over 3000 gallons on hand at all times, plus six 55 gallon barrels. These were incase we had to move, and to haul more fuel from other locations when I emptied them. I planned on burning at the most, 5-7 gallons a day in the winter, and much less in the summer. I figured this would last me about 1.5-2 years if I am careful. I also have a 3000 watt wind genny that helps out some as well. I have averaged it out what I get from it and going from the year before without it, to the end of one full year after I installed it, I get about 300KW a month out of it. I have 1500 gallons of LP, and an LP fireplace heater. I also have a wood burning fireplace as well. The whole house has electric heat in every room. I use about 700 gallons of LP a year. I am not really watching how I use it, just using it.  Now my gen set is a 50HP and 33KW diesel. My battery bank is just under 60KW with a 5500 watt inverter. The inverter charges at about 5500 watts. When I start the gen set, EVERYTHING happens. The batteries get charged up. We all take showers as I have an electric hot water heater. The washing and drying with electric dryer is done if needed. We cook on an electric stove. The electric heaters are used if extra heat is needed in the home. Basically everything we need to do that uses more power than the inverter can provide. All this takes less than two hours and about 3-4 gallons of fuel depending on the load, and how low the batteries are. In the morning it runs for about another hour or so just to top off the batteries, and run the heaters in the house, and if anyone wants a shower. We usually don't need the stove in the morning. The house uses maybe 1-2KW an hour when we are up and moving around. Again, we are not careful with power at all. If they want 2 or 3 TV's on, they are on. The inverter will charge at about 5.5KW an hour when the genny is running. Plus whatever the wind genny gives me. After the second running, most of us go to bed and we run off of batteries all night, which in hardly anything. We get up and start making breakfast, and start the gen set, and the day starts all over. We have microwaves and griddles to make something to eat for lunch so we won't need the stove. Now if for some reason we use ALOT of power, the inverter will watch the state of charge in the batteries and start the gen set up automatically and charge the battieries. I never really watched and measured out just how much fuel I really use in a day or even a week, and so far I have never had to ration electricity or fuel so my situation is probably not the best example to use. Would I want to be without my battery bank, OH HELL NO!!! I would burn much more fuel if I did not have it, but then again, my needs and wants are different from others on here. I wanted to be able to operate on my own for two years. If things are not back to normal by then, they won't be for the rest of my life. I have thought about going off the grid completely, but that isn't something I am set up for and maintain the same life style we all enjoy. I would add solar, but I would have to clear way to many trees to get full sun, because my house is about a half mile into the woods, and completely surrounded by trees. |
I just looked on the Honda site and this is like comparing apples to oranges to compare the black max to the EU2000i. The 2000i has an output of 2000w while the black max (powered by a Honda engine) has an output of 6500w. The Honda EU6500 would be a better comparison. It can run 4.7 hours on its 4.5 gallon tank at full capacity or 14 hours at 1/4 load. The Black Max has an 8 gallon tank and can run 12 hours on a 1/2 load. I think I am going to go with the Black Max for the price and power. $750 out the door on June 1st. |
I understand the power difference, what is really most important is for you to decide how much power you need and understand the trade-offs of having higher power. Perhaps you have good justification for high power so a 2000W inverter is out of the question- only you can decide this. For me, I wanted to be able to run a frig, a freezer, a room sized split-mini A/C (9000BTU) and a few lights. A 2000W inverter can do all this at the same time, it can also run any 13 amp appliance on its own if needed (most any power tool). I figured any additional power wasn't worth the expense of a bigger generator, use of more fuel, and the hassle to store/maintain 2-4x more fuel on-sight. Basically the benefit of any other home "luxury" gets negated by the additional hassle of dealing with more gas (Honda or otherwise). Sometimes less is more. If the Black Max works out for you best then that's great, as TJ noted, we're just sharing what we have learned by going through the same process to help you make the most informed decision possible (since you asked )- we all have different situations so one size does not fit all. I'd still look at one of the Kipor models that EXPY37 mentioned- inverters are a bit different than generators since they don't have to run at a content RPM to maintain their sine wave power signature- a huge advantage. |
This is the one I bought. Mine has a Honda engine, and starts/runs/works great, however, I will warn you, it is remarkably LOUD. If you were to use it for any length of time, you would probably need to build an enclosure for it. |
I guess I am still trying to figure out what I want to run. I know it will come out to be more than 2000 since the well pump requires that. Then there is the fridge, lights, ceiling fans, possibly the hot water heater. I was just at Costco and saw a propane generator. It is a 3500w though, but the propane tanks would make fuel storage really easy. Any experience with the propane powered generators? |
That's really the most important thing. If you have an adequate water tank then you may be able to load balance the well pump against everything else. Basically, use the genset to just run the well pump until the tank is full and then move it back to the fridge, lights, etc. If you had to do this once an hour it would likely be too much hassle but once a day could make it worth using less fuel. I've got no experience on propane but it seems like a great way to go for many applications, particularly if you can have (or already have) a 500+ gallon tank. At any rate, you're on the right path of asking these questions before you buy. |
Great oil life, engine life, etc. Fuel stores for a loooonng time. Uses considerably more fuel, though. I don't have a propane genny, but I have a few other propane-powered items, including vehicles, and the difference (in fuel economy) between using gasoline and propane can be significant. |