[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gas Masks (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/17/2007 1:50:58 PM EDT
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I checked the entire forum and I was amazed that nobody talks about protective measures, such as gas masks and MOPP suits. In light of recent incidents in Iraq, where insurgents used clorine as a weapon of terror (used in conjunction with VBIEDs to not only kill by means of explosives, but also to kill by using chlorine gas to poison people). Now, chemical warfare is as old as warfare itself; in the Middle Ages, invading armies woudl catapult cow carcases over walls of sieged castles to spread diseases inside the walls (germ warfare); in some instances, they even catapulted rotting corpses to speed up the damage. In WW1, Mustard Gas was used by the German to kill thousands of Allied soldiers inside the trenches (Mustard Gas would turn liquid inside a person's lungs and the vicitim would drown in a mixture of mucus and blood as the gas reacts with the sensitive membranes inside the lungs); and recent incidents after 9/11 in which Anthrax was mailed into post offices in Washington and Virginia also raise the possibility of chemical warfare in our cities What can you do? For starters, get your hands on a gas mask... But don't go into your local surplus store and buy a Vietnam era M17A1 or a Russian surplus gas mask; your wasting your money; if you spend a good amount of money in high end optics for your M1A or buidl a custom, sub MOA, match-grade AR; then you can definitely afford some of the more modern gas masks in the market; from military issue M40/M42/MCU-2A/P masks or a civilian made MSA Advantage 1000 respirator, plus replacement filters, which can run you anywhere between $60-$250 depending on how hard you look. I recently purchased a US Navy issue MCU-2P protective mask (military version of the MSA Advantage 1000 respirator, used by police agencies across the country), plus two C2 filters in the "Spam Can"; the mask is IMHO superior to the Army/USMC issue M40 mask, mainly because of the superior peripheral vision, provided by the large "window" type face cover.  (Not my mask, but the same model) The reason I bought this mask is because I'm a corrections officer and I've seen the terrible conditions that our issue riot gear is in and I'd rather invest my hard earned money on equipment that I know is in top shape and won't fail me if we have to flood a cell full of CS and I have to go into the cell as part of a Forced Entry Team; nobody likes a leaky gas mask, specially not me. So, you have your supplies up to date, you have your weapons loaded and ready to go, you have your BOV cgassed up and stocked and you have your home ready for whatever may come... BUt, do you have the protective equipemnt to protect you and your family in case of a chemical spill or a bilogical attack? Do you have a mask as part of your preps? |
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Important subject not always taken seriously by some survivalists. Unfortunately, add to the fact that there are MANY unscrupulous companies that put there propaganda out there like fact. More unfortunate is that people buy it hook, line and sinker despite the FACTS. Bottom line- RESEARCH and I don't mean with 3-4 BS internet johnny come lately companies. Check DOD research, Janes NBC mask guides, etc. |
I agree; the mask I have is made by MSA, a company that supplies law enforcement and the military with their gas masks; I'd avoid anything else, like British S10 respirators, Israeli gas mask and even some of the older M17 US made gas masks. Most of that stuff is worn out and doesn't work; the beauty of the MCU-2/P and the M40/M42 is that they are current issue and are superior to anything else we've used in the past. Check out www.msanorthamerica.com for the variety of protective products they sell. Trust me, I don't step into something without doing some thorough research.  |
| I think this source has been posted on the forum before: www.approvedgasmasks.com/mask-kits.htm. Looks like a great selection, how are their prices? |
I personally have the M-95 respirator with a bunch of M-95 filters, as well as some M291 & M295 chem-bio decon packs. These masks are GREAT for weapon use and are designed for INFANTRY use. The MCU masks, although great, do make weapon use more challenging as they are like a big bubble, mainly designed for NON-INFANTRY use. Keep that in mind when you make a purchase.  Also, approvedgasmasks.com also has some BS on their web site about "surplus masks." I won't get into details, as you can search for past threads on this (I have done long, technical rants in the past about SURPLUS), but I would use, without question, a good MCU, Canadian C4, USGI M40, British S10 and the like gas mask. Their BS about expiration and defects is way overblown and some (CDN C4 for example) are outright LIES. Same with most surplus filters. Only a few are to be avoided when the intended purpose is BIOLOGICAL or RADIOLOGICAL. Chemical is a different story... But then again, a gas mask won't help squat if you are in the middle of a CHLORINE gas cloud, as OXYGEN will be displaced and you will suffocate in your fancy gas mask... Only SCBA will get you out of that one... Then you have the Cl2 BURNS and absorption on your skin to deal with...  I personally do not think CHEMICAL is likely in my SHTF scenarios in MY location. YMMV Where you are may require different protection concerns. Rmpl |
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Also, approvedgasmasks.com also has some BS on their web site about "surplus masks." I won't get into details, as you can search for past threads on this (I have done long, technical rants in the past about SURPLUS), but I would use, without question, a good MCU, Canadian C4, USGI M40, British S10 and the like gas mask. Their BS about expiration and defects is way overblown and some (CDN C4 for example) are outright LIES." YES!! I emailed them regarding there bullshit info about the Czech M10M series mask quoting information from JANES DEFENSE regarding that mask. They stated that they considered it unusable "because the mask is 50 years old." I emailed them back telling them they obviously had that series of masks confused with the "SMH" series of masks and that I had NUMEROUS M10M's with manufacture dates ranging from the late 80's to the late 90's and related to them that the Czech chemical company sent to help with the 2nd Iraq war was featured on CNN WEARING THAT MASK! Of course I got no reply..... BUYER BEWARE! When someone tells you that you "cannot live" without there OVERPRICED product, expect to smell something funny on the bottom of your shoe! Should you buy the best YOU can afford? OF COURSE! Is it unethical and freakin just plain wrong to tell the guy that makes $6. an hour that can only afford a $50. "surplus" mask that he's going to DIE unless he drops $600. on your mask? Your damn right it is..... How long have they REALLY been in business? Anyone actually heard of them BEFORE THE NET? |
If you are looking for C2A1 filters (used on the M40/42 and on the MCU-2/P); got on eBay to get them. My main concern is not radiological, but more on the chemical side; from a chemical spill to a cloud of poison gas; typical filters last up to 8 hours (according to my NBC training); so having a good stock of replacement filters is good. |
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I'm a Guardsman and my unit and others were just issued guide lines that give the shelf life of MCU-2 or Micky 2 masks as 15 years. Unfortunately my mask and many others fall under this. I realize that this is a "military standard" so YMMV. Also, make sure that you do not store the mask in the quick done config as it will lead to premature cracking and possible failure of the retaining straps. As a disclaimer, I am not a NBC expert, I only know what I have been taught to keep myself alive. YMMV ETA- The shelf live was decreed as a result of deterioration of the mask's material. I looked at the order and it mentioned something about cracking and dry rott causing failures during the annual "Fit Test". |
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I went with the British S-10 masks at a very reasonable price (www.specwargear.com/gasmasks.html scroll down to the S10), I also purchased a case of NBC rated Swiss filters still sealed in their "hockey puck" type canisters. I was also able to pick up a half dozen NATO threaded particulate canisters as well for $2 each (expire 8-12) that will fit the masks. The masks seal extremely well (as in suffocate if you cover the intake), and all the tests that I have tried with expired, opened, canisters have produced no detectable olfactory results (acetone, xylene, cat box or chicken coop.. Hooray for activated charcoal ).I figure with the new canisters the masks will be fine as long as they are fit properly. c0 98% of the population is asleep. The other 2% are staring around in complete amazement, abject terror, or both. falloutshelter653.org |
That is my plan. Just need the money. 
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Well, my five C2A1 filters came in the mail a few days acog; they are all sealed up and going into my emergency stash, along with the mask; I pulled the mask down for a thorough inspection of all seals, valves and a good cleaning with soap and warm water. One thing that I like to remind myself is that keeping the mask in top shape will ensure flawless function and long service life. Next on my agenda is to buy a dedicated decon kit. How you guys doing in terms of NBC protection? |
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I've got an M10 gas mask one of the SF members generously donated to me to help out with my preps. Of course, it's all but worthless in an NBC event- I accidentally tore the exhalation membrane. It is useful for dealing with environments that are extremely dusty or have horrific smells (such as the animal carcass I had to dispose of, or the Chinese food I found last week that was in my fridge since January), but beyond that, it's just a Halloween costume. So my plan is to get myself an Israeli mask from Sportsmansguide over the summer. Thirty bucks for an unissued gas mask with two filters sounds good to me, especially since, you know, the Israelis kind of NEED their masks to work. If I can convince my family to get some too, that'd be great. I personally don't foresee a use for gas masks in my preps, but I'm getting one anyway. It's one of the few preps I can afford to purchase on my budget, and if there IS a terrorist attack or accident involving chemicals, well, now I'm going to live long enough to haul ass to somewhere safe. Of course, I need a hood to go with the mask since my ears are exposed... |
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Gas masks will help in many ways. I read that many of the victims of earthquakes and other disasters die or have their health destroyed by inhaling massive amounts of dust when a building collapses. It acts as eye protection and dust mask all in one package. It's a simple as that. Add to that the threat of chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear threats, good grief!, why would you NOT have one. I keep mine under my desk in the office. I think a suit is next. It's more than a suit, though, isn't it. It's a hooded suit, boots, gloves and duct tape to seal the joints. That should be enough to get me out of there and home safely. I need to stash a bicycle at work, too. 15-20 mph is way better than 2-3mph. |
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Not to hijack the thread, but I have a possiblity of getting a mask deal and would like an opinion. What are the thoughts on the M40A1 mask? I can get one manufactured in "04" size large. I wear a 7 3/4 size hat, would the large cover me? Plus the filters are the C2A1, Manufactured "03" Is their an expiration on the filters? Any info/opinion/practical experience/links would be GREATLY appreciated. |
You didn't say HOW MUCH $$$, so how can we know if you are getting a good deal? As for the mask and filter, if I didn't have my M95, which is superior, and I was offered a good deal, I would WITHOUT HESITATION trust that mask/filter to protect me in a NBC emergency AFTER TESTING. The M40A1's are great masks and the C2A1 is an excellent filter. A 2003 manufacture would make me happy til 2016 or farther into the future. Rmpl |
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What do you guys think about industrial maskes like the AO safety 8000 series respirator. http://www.aosafety.com/industrial/resp_detail.cfm?platform=8000%20Respirator&prod_family=8300%20Full%20Face&ind_prod_num=50282-00000001 My friend can get these for me at cost. I am thinking about getting the multi contaminant cartridges with the P100 particulate prefilters. One advantage to this mask is it has a tremendous amount of periperal vision and it is very comfortable. I would even bet that it flows better than most of the military versions as folks have to trust their lives to them every day. |
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Well, I paid 43.04 for five C2A1 filters, new in their plastic "Spam" cans (about $6.60 per filter if you deduce the $10 I paid for shipping). They all have a Mfg. date of 2003, plus I have an older C2 filter with a mfg. date of 1990 still in the metal can and another C2 filter with a date of 1990 in the mask. I figure the filters are good if they are still in their cans sealed up; the one I have on the mask is still good as well, but I might just use a new one and ditch the one it has now. |
Go for it. |
I’m curious about that too. SG has some of those for a really good price. Not knowing the age worries me a bit though. Are they worth getting? Maybe get the mask and ditch the filters it comes with for new ones? www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=336746 |
Stay away from those. I doubt they would even block CS gas. |
As soon as your focus goes beyond dust and out to NBC threats you really need a complete set of gear. You also likely need a warning system. Most NBC agents will give you a lethal dose FAST. Even "simple" chlorine gas will kill you (destroy your lungs) if you get too big a whiff before getting your mask on. HF, used in many/all oil refineries is odorless but will eat your skin. Etc., you get the point. The suit, gloves, boots and duct tape aren't much money in that context. Approved Gas Masks has all that gear AND they have the warning systems, too. |
I would NOT personally use the C2 filters unless they were LAST RESORT. The C2's have a matrix inside them that if damaged can introduce a dust that has been shown to cause cancer in lab animals. I would keep them for last resort (when death is at the door, I will risk a cancer risk dust...) You can also keep the C2's for barter/trade if things got that serious in your area. Again, a "possible" cancer-causing dust is a better risk than a clogged filter and no spares in a deadly environment. I think you see my point... As for the filter on your mask: If it has been several months or more, that filter is NO LONGER GOOD for any CHEMICAL protection. Since biological and nuclear DO NOT rely on the AC (Activated Carbon) for protection, rather the FILTER MEDIA itself, then that filter will work fine until clogged. Once you OPEN and EXPOSE a filter capable of CHEMICAL filtration (almost all use AC for this protection), the effectiveness of the AC begins to reduce over time due to the absorption of air and moisture from the air it is now exposed to by the openings, both inlet and outlet. This is why filters have an EXPIRATION DATE. The expiration date has NOTHING to do with the ability of the FILTER MEDIA itself, rather it has to do with the effective capability of the AC contained inside the filter. This is why there is no expiration dates on automobile air filters or HEPA filters used in industry or the home, for example. There is nothing in them but synthetic or paper filter elements, which do not break down when properly handled, stored and cared for. It is the AC that can EXPIRE. This is why I adamantly defend the use of SURPLUS gas mask filters for radiological, nuclear and biological contaminants, if NO BETTER OPTION EXISTS. Rmpl |
I disagree, if the mask and seals are still pliable and undamaged. Although not my first (or second, or third) choice, they are CHEAP and affordable, and IMO, would protect adequately. The M15 is far better than the Israeli "civilian" masks, but not the best choice by far. It is all about the INSPECTION and CONDITION... Ditch the filter though, but keep it for "last resort." Get a good, modern P100/HEPA filter, like the M95 or military C2A1. BTW, CS gas is easy to filter out... It is a course substance easily trapped in any decent filter. But I must reiterate here, that a gas mask with proper filter ALONE, is for EMERGENCY ESCAPE ONLY. Even then, a full NBC protective set (hood, suit, gloves, boots, etc...) is ideal. But IN REALITY, unless you are where your gear is, those who prep for possible NBC threats will most likely only have MASK & FILTER quickly available to them, which means ESCAPE ONLY purposes. There is A LOT of PLANNING, EDUCATION and THOUGHT that needs to go into a true NBC protection package, which doesn't even include the questions and scenarios of the "OK, I'm in my gear and protected, and those around me are now dead or dying... What do I do now?"  Basically, I hope I NEVER have to do for real what I have planned in my head and prepared for... it would SUCK beyond imagination... Rmpl |
The filter on these Israeli masks are pretty much useless/deactivated. The mask itself is good quality for a civilian unit. A brand new NATO NBC rated filter would be a HUGE step up and have better airflow. Storing your mask and filter in a cool dry place is critical for long term standby service. The masks are nice cause they have a drinking tube setup. |
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I have found a source for AO safety M-tac masks for cost thru a friend. His cost is $155 and the filters are $25.60 apiece, plus shipping. I don't have a link, but I have seen pictures of it. I am betting that this is what local PD's are using. Where is a good place to buy the C2A1 filters that this apparently takes? It has the standard 40mm Nato threads. I am guessing that this is the standard? This is a brand new mask. I may try some cheaper filters, but I would rather have the best when my life is on the line. |
Unless you have connections with the military, you will not be able to BUY NEW C2A1 filters. You can find SURPLUS ones, still sealed in the can, on eBay, for sale by present or former military. Your best bet is the M95 filter. It is a COMMERCIAL filter that meets or exceeds the C2A1 in performance. You can also find these on eBay amd other online sources Rmpl |
This smacks of selling military gear that belongs to the US Government. Selling what isn't yours is illegal. Please explain further. |
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I would be getting new commercial versions that do exceed the military specs., but at $25 a piece, I won't be buying a huge amount of them! I will probably just buy 3 to start and just not open them until I absolutely need them. I wonder if I can find cheapies to use for training with my mask. Without actually wearing the mask with a filter I cannot get used to the feeling of having my breathing slightly slowed. |
Slow down, Hoss... Don't get yer' hangin rope yet... I have been told, as I am not military, that PERSONAL PROTECTION gear is issued and not RETURNABLE once issued... just like BOOTS, socks and undies. It looks as if these SMALL QUANTITIES of filters are brought home after deployment or training... Much of this ends up on the market, just like other USGI gear. Rmpl |
Got it. Darn, I wanted to use this here new rope I got. |
Just want to point out that chemical agents that displace oxygen, like chlorine are not protected against. Being that the oxygen is displaced, yes the chlorine will be filtered, but you will not be breathing oxygen very long if you remain in the area. Chlorine is pretty widely used for pool and water purification purposes, so I would predict that a chemical agent attack would use chlorine, much like the attacks by insurgents happening in Iraq. The only way to survive chlorine gas in any concentration is SCBA. |
Oh, absolutely; something in the order of a SRU-40 B/P HABD would be appropiate in a chlorine attack.  This is standard issue for military helicopter crews; is a small emergency air tank that they use in case they have to crash in water; if you see the scene in the movie "The Perfect Storm" where the USAF Blackhawk crashes and the helicopter sinks; you notice that the pilot reaches into a pocket of his survival vest and retrieves a HABD (Helicopter Aircrew Breathing Device) and uses it to breathe as he frees himself from the sinking helicopter and surface to where his crewmen are. |
If you wanted to spend the money, you could buy a Scott Airpack for yourself. It's a full blown, self-contained breathing apparatus just like the firefighters use - Scott Promask and all. |
| I have both the Israeli issue M15 military version and my issue M40. I had a Chemical weopons expert go over it when I got it, he said that even though they are cheap they will work as long as you inspect just like your m40. Pull it out every couple of months and check for cracking on the rubber and what not. Store it in a relaxed state so that every thing is loose. I love the Israeli one except the drink tube thingy is kinda cheesey but I am gonna get with my NBC guy and have him rig me up a deal for my Camel Back bladder . I did not get mine from SG but it came brandnew with with Hebrew Instructions no filters though but that is no problem for me as I have bough brandnew ones. As to NBC stuff I know for a fact that it HAS to be turned back in after issue, because even though it may not be opened they have to turn them in as Hazmat. I know because I have turned in whole cases that have expired but were never opened. With any mask you get, get a couple of old filters so that you can train with the mask, they really restrain your vision and breathing some people really freak out when they put them for the first time. That is what I use mine for, nothing like doing a rifle course in your mask ( I am kinda sick like that though). If the price is right I am going to pick up another M40 so I can still have two masks and leave my issue one at work. |
What do you mean, selling what isn't yours is illegal, hell we've all paid for that gear. It already belongs to US, not the government, we are paying twice for it! |
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Just a question for those that have invested in quality NBC gear. How do you know when to put it on? Do you walk around with a detector kit on your belt? If you plan is to don your mask when you see people around you dropping...its too late. This is not meant as a flame, but unless you have the mask(and full mopp suit) and some kind of detection apparatus be it a mechanical / electronic "sniffer" or reactive paper strips you are deluding yourself into a false sense of security. IMHO Unless you live next door to a refinery or a chem storage facility (with their own audible alarm system) your $$ is better spent on more food/water/band-aids. Respectfully, echo6 |