Posted: 12/7/2013 5:56:50 PM EDT
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Thinking about adding a 12' tall 8' wide climbing wall to back of the kids fort in the back yard. While its not to terribly tall I am wanting to put in a top rope belay setup. What type of rope should I be using? The wife and I will probably play as well. At this height I would probably personally be comfortable bouldering it myself but want the rope especially for the kids. I see Static rope sold by the foot and I only need 30-35 feet total so this has me wondering if this rope will be good for this purpose or do I need to kick down the 150+ buck for 60+ meters of dynamic rope. The setup is probably already going to run about 300-350 in cost without the rope but if I can get by without having to spend more and buy more rope than needed right now the better. Creating a "safe" experience is more the priority though. We climb at an indoor gym so the harnesses are already covered.
Thanks C |
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Static is for rappelling, rope doesn't move, holds constant weight.
Dynamic is for climbing, the rope gives like a bungie rope so you don't rip your pelvis off. Be sure to have two anchor points about 8-10" appart with biners, so the rope doesn't flatten out. ETA: GearExpress.com has tons of "short ropes" full strength but not full price, get a 10mm or bigger. Also look at dry ropes if you think the rope will get wet at all. Be sure you know what you are doing as far as rope knots A few old mattresses at the base will go a long way to save a broken ankle. Here |
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You can use static for top roping but you MUST be super attentive to keep slack to an absolute minimum, and for kids it's not going to give at all. Better to use dynamic.
The one other benefit of static is that when the climber starts to fall, they stop quickly where with dynamic the stretch makes it feel like they're not getting caught. The only issue with dynamic is that it does stretch... if you have a long top rope run and the climber takes a fall close to the ground, the stretch in the double-length rope can be enough for them to contact the ground. That's not going to happen with as short of a run as you're talking about though, and not with kids who don't weigh much anyway. Second the idea of mattresses or other padding at the base. For a 12' wall I'd be tempted to just get some braided nylon 1/2"~3/8" rope at the hardware store. It'd be pretty stretchy. |
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In this very specific application, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using static. I would try to get a piece of "semi-static," though... which, you'll probably find is actually what your local store is selling anyway. Eidelweiss makes a lot of bulk semi-static you find in climbing shops.
Do you have a surplus store near by? A local store in Portland called Andy & Bax sells some super fat, super cheap dynamic kernmantle rope for like $30 a coil. They claim it's climbing rope, and you can take a fall on it like any other climbing rope. For a 12' wall with a maximum fall height of like 9', I'd be perfectly fine using it for top rope. You could give them a call and see if they'll ship you a coil. http://www.andyandbax.com/home.bax?cart=13864754054841717 Also, if you watch the climbing boards, people sell good toprope rope all the time. $30 is a pretty common rope for worn out furry ropes getting retired from leading, but will still hold a Mac truck on top rope. |
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Glad (hope) you got the right answer to your question. For ANY type of recreational climbing where there is ANY chance of a dynamic load, you need to use a stretchy rope. Static rope stretches only like 3-6%. Imagine looking away for long enough for your kid to ascend 1 body length - a half second maybe - then taking a 3 foot fall onto a steel cable. spf |
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One thing on the static rope I didn't think about... nowadays there are some polyester core static ropes on the market which have NO stretch at all. Do NOT use one of those even for top roping, Only use the nylon core types.
I top roped a lot with static over the years, its no problem other than as I said the belayer has to be very attentive. Static wears less on falls since there's less movement over the rock surface. For toproping don't forget a good pulley, don't try to do it with just rope through a carabiner or something... use a pulley. ETA: The Sterling HTP ropes on that Gear Express site are the polyester core I'd recommend you avoid. The Superstatic appears to be nylon core and would be usable. Polyester outer braid ropes (regardless of the core properties) are a much slicker feel and get less friction through belay/rappel devices and such, as well as in your hand for control. Nylon has a better feel and easier control IME. When I got my first polyester braid ropes (KM-III) I had to use an extra brake bar from what I'm used to due to the reduced friction. |
| I'm gonna have to totally disagree with the pulley... Firstly, a big part of the function of the anchor is to create friction to help you catch and hold a fall. A pulley creates a mechanical advantage, and will make it a LOT harder to catch, hold, and control a fall. In high-angle systems, you always want to reduce the amount of potential failure points and increase redundancy. This is why you double up on fixed gear, and triple up or even quadruple up on placed gear, when building anchors. Running the rope through a pulley runs contrary to this philosophy on two points, A being that you're increasing the complexity of the anchor, and B being that you eliminate your redundancy by focusing all of your anchor lines through one point. |
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You can fall on static line, you just won't like it. It all stretches, static just stretches a lot less than dynamic.
Static is for when you're descending and ascending the rope itself. It's not much fun to be climbing out of a pit and feeling like you're on a yo-yo. Or the old days on laid line like where you would spin like a top. Static is typically also much more resistant to wear because of a more tightly woven sheath. |
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Quoted:
a big part of the function of the anchor is to create friction to help you catch and hold a fall. A top rope anchor should not in any way contribute to friction, that's what the belayer is for. Especially if you have a kid on belay, they might well not even weigh enough to overcome the friction going over a 'biner with a stiffer rope. Larger bend radius is easier on ropes and reduces wear and tear. Just because most are doing it wrong doesn't make it right. Earlier I forgot one other benefit of static rope for top roping... less stretch means a climber doesn't move very far when they fall, so fewer abrasions. As far as static "breaking your back", we're not talking about lead climbing here. Max fall with an attentive top roper should be a few inches at most. There's also give in the belayer and belay system. "Static" nylon core rope does have some stretch, it's not steel cable... polyester core though has almost no inherent stretch and is really only suitable for specific applications. If the climber is doing big dynos and stuff then static regardless of core type isn't good for that situation. |
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I will be going with one of the dynamic short ropes, the cost on those will be worth the little extra, plus with some of the lengths there they might serve well for other short climbs on real rock next year. While a top roper should only fall a couple inches at most may be the case most of the time my oldest climbs as fast as the wife or I can take up slack. Just keeping the slack out with her is a chore. $50-60 for a dynamic short rope will not break the bank. The more I looked at the fort that I will be building it on, I decided to just kick down a couple hundred more and add an overhang as well instead of just a straight vertical wall.
C |
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A top rope anchor should not in any way contribute to friction, that's what the belayer is for. Especially if you have a kid on belay, they might well not even weigh enough to overcome the friction going over a 'biner with a stiffer rope. Larger bend radius is easier on ropes and reduces wear and tear. Just because most are doing it wrong doesn't make it right. Earlier I forgot one other benefit of static rope for top roping... less stretch means a climber doesn't move very far when they fall, so fewer abrasions. As far as static "breaking your back", we're not talking about lead climbing here. Max fall with an attentive top roper should be a few inches at most. There's also give in the belayer and belay system. "Static" nylon core rope does have some stretch, it's not steel cable... polyester core though has almost no inherent stretch and is really only suitable for specific applications. If the climber is doing big dynos and stuff then static regardless of core type isn't good for that situation. Oh my gosh, dude... where did you learn to climb? Will you show me a SINGLE publication that says a top-rope should be run through a pulley? Because I have a bookshelf full of climbing books, including the gold-standards on climbing methods, systems, equipment, and technique, and NONE ever mention it being a good idea to use a pulley on top rope. Every single one of these books, and every single certified climbing instructor in this country, and probably every country, will use, and teach, a double-carabiner anchor for top-rope. It is THE method. Ever heard of John Long? How about The Mountaineers? Ever read Freedom of the Hills, the bible of climbing? Have you ever actually gone to a climbing crag, or even a climbing gym? No pulleys... not in books, not at the crag, not in the alpine, not in gyms. The belayer is NOT friction- he's a counterbalance only. What would he be rubbing against? And having belayed most of my 5 kids hundreds of times with a lot of different ropes, I've never had anything even remotely close to an inability to lower them because of friction. Impossible- absolutely impossible, if you're setting it up right (I have no idea what you think a real anchor looks like). Lemme know when you find that reference to using a pulley. I'll start pulling these technical manuals out. |
| I'm in 100% agreement with bkb. I've never heard of pulleys being used in a top rope anchor. I have used pulleys to create hauling systems to pull climbers out of crevasses, which is way different than as an anchor which will be shock loaded. Yes, the OP has a relatively small wall, but that anchor will at times be shock loaded, which is why pulley or a static rope would eventually prove dangerous. OP, good call on the dynamic rope. Make sure you use carabiners rated for climbing. |
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Oh my gosh, dude... where did you learn to climb? Quoted:
Oh my gosh, dude... where did you learn to climb? On rocks mostly, a few indoor climbing walls. Ever read Freedom of the Hills, the bible of climbing? Indeed I have. Have you ever actually gone to a climbing crag, or even a climbing gym? Far too many times to count, starting quite possibly before you were born. (I have no idea what you think a real anchor looks like). I usually try for 3 solid anchor points, with a minimum-angle equalized sling arrangement, usually with 1/2" static rope but sometimes using 7/16" or strap/webbing. Have experience with vertical rope work for over 35 years, to include rappelling, caving, vertical rescue, tower climbing, and yes, sport rock climbing. The rock climbing culture takes a lot of shortcuts driven by weight savings, everyone wants to think they're climbing the nose even if they're just top roping a 100' pitch with easy top access. Somewhere I have rescue books where use of pulleys is well documented. I'm not going to dig them up just to answer your insult. I've been using them for decades and know they work. Here's a vertical gear and training website for example, wonder what the first subcategory of equipment they have listed under hardware is? http://www.cmcrescue.com/c/hardware/ The sport equipment companies have them too: http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/pulleys-0 Do whatever you want, but I'll continue to give my opinion and advice based on my education and experience exactly as I've already stated it. The last indoor climbing wall I climbed had fixed pulleys at the top. BTW if you're shock loading your anchor in top roping a practice climbing wall you really need to rethink how you are belaying. Then again most indoor walls anymore seem to be going to those automatic self-retracting belayers. |
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Quoted:
A top rope anchor should not in any way contribute to friction, that's what the belayer is for. Especially if you have a kid on belay, they might well not even weigh enough to overcome the friction going over a 'biner with a stiffer rope. Larger bend radius is easier on ropes and reduces wear and tear. Just because most are doing it wrong doesn't make it right. Earlier I forgot one other benefit of static rope for top roping... less stretch means a climber doesn't move very far when they fall, so fewer abrasions. As far as static "breaking your back", we're not talking about lead climbing here. Max fall with an attentive top roper should be a few inches at most. There's also give in the belayer and belay system. "Static" nylon core rope does have some stretch, it's not steel cable... polyester core though has almost no inherent stretch and is really only suitable for specific applications. If the climber is doing big dynos and stuff then static regardless of core type isn't good for that situation. Quoted:
Quoted:
a big part of the function of the anchor is to create friction to help you catch and hold a fall. A top rope anchor should not in any way contribute to friction, that's what the belayer is for. Especially if you have a kid on belay, they might well not even weigh enough to overcome the friction going over a 'biner with a stiffer rope. Larger bend radius is easier on ropes and reduces wear and tear. Just because most are doing it wrong doesn't make it right. Earlier I forgot one other benefit of static rope for top roping... less stretch means a climber doesn't move very far when they fall, so fewer abrasions. As far as static "breaking your back", we're not talking about lead climbing here. Max fall with an attentive top roper should be a few inches at most. There's also give in the belayer and belay system. "Static" nylon core rope does have some stretch, it's not steel cable... polyester core though has almost no inherent stretch and is really only suitable for specific applications. If the climber is doing big dynos and stuff then static regardless of core type isn't good for that situation. Even a short fall on a static rope can cause damage. Yes, in a perfect world the belayer won't let you fall much, however in a perfect world I would never fall. It is a simple safety measure to just not use a static top rope. But I am no expert. |
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Have experience with vertical rope work for over 35 years, to include rappelling, caving, vertical rescue, tower climbing, and yes, sport rock climbing. The rock climbing culture takes a lot of shortcuts driven by weight savings, everyone wants to think they're climbing the nose even if they're just top roping a 100' pitch with easy top access. Somewhere I have rescue books where use of pulleys is well documented. I'm not going to dig them up just to answer your insult. I've been using them for decades and know they work. Here's a vertical gear and training website for example, wonder what the first subcategory of equipment they have listed under hardware is? http://www.cmcrescue.com/c/hardware/ The sport equipment companies have them too: http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/pulleys-0 Do whatever you want, but I'll continue to give my opinion and advice based on my education and experience exactly as I've already stated it. The last indoor climbing wall I climbed had fixed pulleys at the top. BTW if you're shock loading your anchor in top roping a practice climbing wall you really need to rethink how you are belaying. Then again most indoor walls anymore seem to be going to those automatic self-retracting belayers. I own pulleys- When did I say "you don't use pulleys in climbing?" But you DONT USE THEM FOR TOP ROPE CLIMBING. Nobody does. It's not a "short-cut," it's plain not smart for the reasons I listed - eliminates redundancy and increases complexity, creates a mechanical advantage against the belayer's counterweight, and eliminates the desireable friction used to control your climber's fall and lowering. Can you articulate any kind of reason why you think a pulley is a good thing in a top-rope anchor setup? Your rescue books probably have tons of information about pulleys. MINE do. Rescue is about hauling, and hauling basically requires pulleys. That's why I have pulleys on my harness for glacier travel and hauling loads up walls. They have absolutely no use at the crag. I'm sorry if my exasperation seems like an "insult"- but the fact of the matter is, using a pulley for top-rope, and then to claim that NOT using one is "short cutting" or not doing it "right," is so totally ridiculous... It really is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard all month. Maybe longer. It's that retarded. |
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A top rope anchor should not in any way contribute to friction, that's what the belayer is for. Especially if you have a kid on belay, they might well not even weigh enough to overcome the friction going over a 'biner with a stiffer rope. Larger bend radius is easier on ropes and reduces wear and tear. Quoted:
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a big part of the function of the anchor is to create friction to help you catch and hold a fall. A top rope anchor should not in any way contribute to friction, that's what the belayer is for. Especially if you have a kid on belay, they might well not even weigh enough to overcome the friction going over a 'biner with a stiffer rope. Larger bend radius is easier on ropes and reduces wear and tear. double biners isn't gonna create so much friction as to prevent lowering. Just last week I belayed a friends kid at the indoor gym. 35lb kid, top anchor is about a 5 inch pipe with the rope wrapped around it (not just over it) and 10+ mm fat fuzzy gym ropes, through my gri gri. Was a slow lower, but he came down. |
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The use of pulleys for haul systems is far different from using them for a top anchor in rock climbing.
Pulleys are NOT designed to shock loaded. And regardless of how much you try to alleviate that, it's what you would have to account for occurring to some degree. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. If you're worried about friction maybe double up with some steel screw links, that should provide less friction than aluminum. |
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Friction is the job of the belayer and the belay device. A kid will lower off of a doubled, reversed and opposed aluminum or steel biner set up just fine. The only time I ever use static line or pulleys is for high angle rescue and for big wall hauling. I've climbed El Capitan recreationally as well as worked numerous rescues on that wall for YOSAR. I think the OP's got it by now. BTW, OP, I can't remember if you mentioned the ages of your kids but you might look at the recommendations for age/weight and the use of full body harnesses. Make the overhang and those kids will get sick strong. spf |
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I've climbed El Capitan recreationally as well as worked numerous rescues on that wall for YOSAR. spf When were you there? I spent two seasons of full time climbing - 77' & 79'. Both times I showed up in March and left when the summer tourist zoo factor got too high to stand. I would move up to Tuolumne Meadows for dome action or hit the Sierra for alpine stuff... 77' - tent in Camp 4 79' - truck and camper in Lodge Parking Lot Loved it - some of the best times of my life. I got to meet Jardine, Chouinard, went into the Palisades for a week with John Lakey, etc. I was there for the whole Merced Lake Plane crash but stayed the hell away..... Firing the rads down at the Cookie - you remember that stuff? I did the big wall thing a couple times but that was not for me. I was a dyed in the wool free climber. In a good day you could pull off half the height of El Cap and be back at camp for a hot meal and fire. Grunting a 100# haul bag and jugging wasn't "my version" of rock climbing. |
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When were you there? I spent two seasons of full time climbing - 77' & 79'. Both times I showed up in March and left when the summer tourist zoo factor got too high to stand. I would move up to Tuolumne Meadows for dome action or hit the Sierra for alpine stuff... 77' - tent in Camp 4 79' - truck and camper in Lodge Parking Lot Loved it - some of the best times of my life. I got to meet Jardine, Chouinard, went into the Palisades for a week with John Lakey, etc. I was there for the whole Merced Lake Plane crash but stayed the hell away..... Firing the rads down at the Cookie - you remember that stuff? I did the big wall thing a couple times but that was not for me. I was a dyed in the wool free climber. In a good day you could pull off half the height of El Cap and be back at camp for a hot meal and fire. Grunting a 100# haul bag and jugging wasn't "my version" of rock climbing. Quoted:
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I've climbed El Capitan recreationally as well as worked numerous rescues on that wall for YOSAR. spf When were you there? I spent two seasons of full time climbing - 77' & 79'. Both times I showed up in March and left when the summer tourist zoo factor got too high to stand. I would move up to Tuolumne Meadows for dome action or hit the Sierra for alpine stuff... 77' - tent in Camp 4 79' - truck and camper in Lodge Parking Lot Loved it - some of the best times of my life. I got to meet Jardine, Chouinard, went into the Palisades for a week with John Lakey, etc. I was there for the whole Merced Lake Plane crash but stayed the hell away..... Firing the rads down at the Cookie - you remember that stuff? I did the big wall thing a couple times but that was not for me. I was a dyed in the wool free climber. In a good day you could pull off half the height of El Cap and be back at camp for a hot meal and fire. Grunting a 100# haul bag and jugging wasn't "my version" of rock climbing. Oh man, an original stone monkey! I was there in the mid 00’s. Summers beginning in 04 or so. I was the LYV ranger in 07. Good times indeed! Too ba dyou didn't get into the plane crash dude! I hear you about the big walling. The Cookie was more my speed as well. I got up a half dozen or so wall routes just because... My frame ain't really made for hauling a pig weighing more than myself. spf |