ARFCOM 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG Challenge (Page 29 of 36)
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Here is my first submission from the GA HTF shoot. 100 Yards.
Rifle is a stock Tikka CTR 6.5 20" with Handloads (140 ELD / H4350 / Lapua Brass). Harris Bipod and red tac rear bag. I shot the string twice that day, first with a chassis and couldn't get comfortable. Mid day I grabbed the tupperware stock out that I was more accustomed to shooting and did better. I shot as good as I ever have. The spreading in the third group was the barrel heating up. I slowed down for 4 and 5 and it helped. One thing I didn't think about was my loads heating up in the chamber and getting a little erratic. Obviously if I slowed down I could improve on this a bit based on the first two groups. .555 - .264 = .291 .645-.264 = .381 1.076-.264 = .812 .845-.264 = .581 .952-.264 = .688 .5258 MOA average Bolt Action 100 Yards, Robpiat: Tikka CTR 6.5 Creedmoor- Sightron S-TAC 4-20x - Handloads 140 ELD . Groups: .291 .381 .812 .581 .688 = avg. .5506" = .5258 MOA 
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From the 3rd Annual GA HTF MOA Challenge:
Target at 100yds: Attached File Target: Attached File Calipers: Attached File Rifle as shot: Attached File SPR Division, wiseanhyzer: Home built with 20" LaRue Stealth barrel. Trijicon RS29 4-16x50 in LT104. ADI69 gr. Groups: 0.893", 1.251", 1.230", 0.796", 0.674" = 0.968" = 0.925 MOA |
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From the 3rd Annual GA HTF MOA Challenge:
Target at 100yds: Attached File Target: Attached File Calipers: Attached File Rifle as shot: Attached File Bolt Division, wiseanhyzer: Tikka CTR 308. Trijicon RS22 2.5-10x56. FGMM 168gr. Groups: 0.405", 0.817", 0.783", 0.647", 0.917" = 0.713" = 0.681 MOA |
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From the 3rd Annual GA HTF MOA Challenge:
Second attempt of the day with this rifle first try with a new load that I'd only fired 5 rounds of prior to the event. May have to tweak it or go back to the first load that should be in the .4's without me throwing some shots. Target at 100yds: 
Target: 
Calipers: 
Rifle as shot: 
Bolt Division, SuperJLarge: Large Customs 260. Vortex Razor Gen 2- 4.5-27x56, Deviant tactical, bartlein gap#6 contour, Manners T4A elite, sierra 142smk handloads, h4350, lapua brass, Fed210 primers. Groups: 0.423", 0.499", 0.524", 0.850", 0.953" = 0.649" /1.047= 0.620 MOA |
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From the 3rd Annual GA HTF MOA Challenge:
Need to try again without brass that is near the end of its life... Target at 100yds:
Target: 
Calipers: 
Rifle as shot: This rifle, with the Crosstac bag as posted above and a SAS Reaper suppressor. No pic of it on the line aside from Rob getting me in his pic. 
Bolt Division, SuperJLarge: Long Rifles Inc 260. NF ATACR 5-25x56, R700, bartlein M24 contour, Manners T4A, sierra 142smk handloads, h4350, 7x fired lapua brass, Fed210 primers. Groups: 0.562", 0.572", 0.746", 0.779", 0.991" = 0.730" /1.047= 0.697 MOA |
A drawl doesn't mean I'm ignorant, just Southern..
Joined:
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GA, USA
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...This year's results from the GHTF MOA Challenge....Not as good as last years .75 MOA but at least it gives me something to work on over the Winter....
SPR division, 100 yards, Draconis LaRue 5.56, 20" Stealth shooting handloads Groups: .741 + 1.244 + .622 + .834 + .773 = 4.214 / 5 = .8428 average = .804 MOA ...Range and set up.. Attached File ...Target with calipers..... Attached File ...Scored target with swag.... Attached File ...Again, I want to say Thank You very much to Mark and LaRue Tactical for sponsoring this for the GHTF again this year and Thanks to GaHunter for hosting.. ....Also, congratulations to all the shooters, sub-MOA , not so sub-MOA and tiny group shooters alike for taking the time to come out and see what they and their equipment could do.... 
...I don't think I'll be the only one trying to fine tune over the next year.... 
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Part-time plastic pony wrangler for frightened snowflakes in need of a safe space.
"It's better to be careful 100 times than to get killed once."-Mark Twain
"If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid."- Anon
"It's better to be careful 100 times than to get killed once."-Mark Twain
"If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid."- Anon
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Finally got around to shooting an entry for this.
Conditions were not too good. Variable cross wind at around 5 mph, gusting to around 10 mph at times. Sun was glaring off my scope some as well. Also, my magazine consistently fails to feed and the spring that makes my mag release work got lost somehow  . So I had to single feed today. I was also rushed for time so my results are, I feel, substandard compared to what I've shot with this rifle previously. I'll be re-shooting this one in the future.
Without further ado... JamesP81 - Bolt Division 100 yards Savage Hog Hunter 223 Remington. Fitted to a Bell and Carlson M40 Stock with PTG bottom metal. Factory barrel and factory Accutrigger. SWFA SS 12x fixed power Ammo: Handloads, new Winchester brass, 24.8gr IMR 8208XBR, 52gr SMKs, loaded to 2.20 COL Groups: 1.004" / 0.943" / 0.996" / 0.69" / 1.036". Average = 0.934" = 0.892 MOA Here's the rifle: 
The range. This is a public range run by the Missouri Department of Conservation: 
The targets: 
I feel like I can do better, but every group was sub-moa (some of them barely) so I was happy about that. A most excellent way to spend a Sunday afternoon, regardless. |
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Originally Posted By akethan:
Too big Originally Posted By akethan:
Originally Posted By JmacAr:
Consider this my placeholder, but I have a question regarding the rear bag... This is the only bag that I have and I don't remember who made it so I can't give you the website URL. **Edit** Just checked the link earlier in this thread, 100% sure it's this bag: http://www.triadtactical.com/Red-Tac-Gear-Rear-Bag.html Just want to know if the results will be official or un-official 
Picture next to my shoe to give a size reference. http://i60.tinypic.com/2yy9grb.jpg 
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Originally Posted By akethan:
Nope see page 1 for approved bags. Ask questions here |
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Finally beat 1 MOA with 118LR of all things
Rifle as shot 
Picture of range 
Entire target 
Best group with caliper not adjusted for bullet 
SPR Division at 100yds Flg23 Sr25 APC with KAC bipod and S&B 5-20 shooting M118LR 0.713/1.513/0.909/0.738/1.333=5.206/5=1.041/1.047=0.994MOA |
Well I was hoping for something averaging .7 and beat it! Shot with mono pod hinge disengaged and hand on it.
upload pics direct link 
upload pics direct link 
upload pics direct link 
photo uploading sites SPR- JPgolffl, Home built mega MKM, Larue stealth 18 inch, Leupold MK4 3.5–10, tactical yoga mat, LC Varget SMK77 handloads. 0.934+0.741+0.743+0.818+0.800/5= 0.8072-0.224=0.5832/1.047=0.5570MOA Edited to correct score. |
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I was shooting for load development, so each 5-shot group is a different powder charge weight.
Savage Stealth 6.5 CM - 147g ELD-M Lapua brass CCI 450 47.1g to 47.9g RL26 - Groups: 0.534" 0.652" 0.486" 0.735" 0.673" Avg MOA = 0.588 
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Cold killed my phone, so no photos from the range. Took target home and got a caliper. Rifle is a Remington 700 sps that I stuck in an XLR element chasis (extended cheek rest) , vortex PST 6-24 ffl, mrad . Ammo was store bought Hornady Vmax 55 grain. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
"I'm a master mechanic, I can take anything apart, usually get it back together too without too many extra parts.."
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Originally Posted By fsjdw2:
Cold killed my phone, so no photos from the range. Took target home and got a caliper. Rifle is a Remington 700 sps that I stuck in an XLR element chasis (extended cheek rest) , vortex PST 6-24 ffl, mrad . Ammo was store bought Hornady Vmax 55 grain. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/216165/3035319F-D639-46BE-88EC-91676FC71B4A-380702.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/216165/ACCD11AD-2C61-4FF5-A400-7C4E08D9EAA2-380703.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/216165/6F8DB62F-6A8E-4C80-85C8-3D075F668FFE-380704.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/216165/347AFCBB-8CAB-48C4-BCCE-CA6536DB60D8-380705.JPG Good shootin'. |
Distinguished Rifleman #2223
#FreeBradders
"Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara
#FreeBradders
"Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara
This entry needs to bump my previous entry off the roster... also, I removed half the sand from my old sock to make it the size of a fist and I actually like it more. This is just some load development I did today, I think I'll go with 41.8gr H4350... might reshoot this some day to get into the top 10.
 Bolt gun division. Assaultdog0351. Savage 12LRP true reciever, glass bed, barrel nut, griffin brake. Vortex Razor Gen 2, handloads. Sand in sock 101yd..6285", .583", .563", .422", .6005" = Average .5594"/.5342 MOA |
 
LaRue UU kit 18" tOBR barrel in 308. Reshot today and screwed it up for myself at the end. Oh well I have the next couple weeks off to try again. SPR akethan LT UU kit in .308 18" 168GMM .742/.788/.657/1.081/1.226= .8988 New pic of range since Photobucket shit the bed. 
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Originally Posted By akethan:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14209/uu30811-395322.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14209/uu30812-395323.jpg Shot this in under 10 minutes today. She was hot! LaRue UU kit 18" tOBR barrel in 308. . SPR division akethan Larue Ultimate Upper Kit 18"308 tOBR barrel IOR MP8 GMM168 .764/.703/5.83/.593/1.285= .786 Originally Posted By akethan:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14209/uu30811-395322.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14209/uu30812-395323.jpg Shot this in under 10 minutes today. She was hot! LaRue UU kit 18" tOBR barrel in 308. . SPR division akethan Larue Ultimate Upper Kit 18"308 tOBR barrel IOR MP8 GMM168 .764/.703/5.83/.593/1.285= .786 
Originally Posted By akethan: Rules for posting are on page #1 |
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Originally Posted By jpgolffl: Missing a couple of pics there dear leader! And you left my name off of the #8 spot You're right I haven't posted a pic of my measurement I was planning on doing that tonight. On target is jacked Next time post in the discussion thread. |
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My entry...
Witnessed by Winston Wolf, Desert Moon, both ARFCOM members. 100 yrds Remington 700 PSS Tasco scope (old school jap) Federal 168 SMK Front bag, no other support, to be fair, I used to use this rifle for 1000 yard shoots. I really have no real way to measure, figured it was good enough on the ARFCOM small target. Thanks for firing me up, been at least 2 years since I shot this rifle! On to the pics! The range... Attached File The target, 5 rounds of Fedeal Match 168 SMK*... Attached File * It seems to be loaded hotter than Military Match with 168 SMK. |
I have no useful skills, therefore I supervise.
Call sign:Radio Silence
Call sign:Radio Silence
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Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
My entry... Witnessed by Winston Wolf, Desert Moon, both ARFCOM members. 100 yrds Remington 700 PSS Tasco scope (old school jap) Federal 168 SMK Front bag, no other support, to be fair, I used to use this rifle for 1000 yard shoots. I really have no real way to measure, figured it was good enough on the ARFCOM small target. Thanks for firing me up, been at least 2 years since I shot this rifle! On to the pics! The range... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19372/1220distance-396544.JPG The target, 5 rounds of Fedeal Match 168 SMK*... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19372/1220_shoot-396545.JPG * It seems to be loaded hotter than Military Match with 168 SMK. |
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Originally Posted By akethan: You're missing 20 rounds. They're probably in your range bag. FWIW, this is my initial target at that range, started top left with a called cold barrel shot. Bottom right is a 5 shot string (which was the group immediately before the one in OP). And really, I need to fire 25 rounds to "prove" my ability to hit a target? Naw, accept what I did or not, I'm not wasting ammo just to be part of your group. Attached File |
I have no useful skills, therefore I supervise.
Call sign:Radio Silence
Call sign:Radio Silence
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Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
Naw, accept what I did or not, I'm not wasting ammo just to be part of your group. |
"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." - Capt. W. F. Call, Texas Ranger
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Shooting Stuff Is Fun
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Shooting Stuff Is Fun
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
The BFL target is the only one I can print. The other two links are dead. Would it be acceptable to make my own target with five 1" diameter black dots on it? I can convert group sizes to MOA after the shooting is done. |
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Originally Posted By Gunslinger808: Going back and looking at the rules, you are 100% correct, my apologies. FWIW, this is my initial target at that range, started top left with a called cold barrel shot. Bottom right is a 5 shot string (which was the group immediately before the one in OP). And really, I need to fire 25 rounds to "prove" my ability to hit a target? Naw, accept what I did or not, I'm not wasting ammo just to be part of your group. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19372/F4C32136-5DCC-4587-B820-829E09E1832C-396655.JPG |
"I'm a master mechanic, I can take anything apart, usually get it back together too without too many extra parts.."
| Please post questions in the other thread. See below. Thanks. - Old_Painless |
I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
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A reminder once again. This thread is for posting entries to the One MOA Challenge. If you want to talk about it or how you are preparing for it, or discuss equipment, there is another thread for that. - Old_Painless
https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/-Official-ARFCOM-1-MOA-ALL-DAY-LONG-Challenge-Discussion-Thread/17-4880/ |
"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." - Capt. W. F. Call, Texas Ranger
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Shooting Stuff Is Fun
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Shooting Stuff Is Fun
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Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File SPR Division, amannamedjed, PSA .223 Wylde SS 18” freefloat, Larue MBT, UTG 4-16x44, sock with garbanzo beans, IMI 77gr SMK OTM razor core: 0.944”, 1.135”, 0.935”, 1.402”, 1.079” = 5.495” / 5 = 1.099” avg. = 1.05 MoA. 100 yards. |
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22lr rifle with magnified optic at 50 yards division, Redbirdxx, CZ 455 American, Yodave trigger mod, Vortex 4-16 HS-T, Harris bipod, Bradley cheek rest, Crosstac squeeze bag, Wolf Target Match. Groups: .240", .685", .716", .386", .339" = .473" average= .904 MOA
Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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100 yards, 24" frankenstein 6.5 grendel, satern liberty barrel
Geissele ssa e trigger 12x ss swfa scope Crosstac squeeze bag in rear, sand bag front Ammo 123 smk, 27.3 grain xbr8208, oal 2.285, avg vel 2511fps Temp 52-54F, 30.1inHg, 1015am-1130am, jan 28 2018 Spr division, patchouli, 6.5grendel Frankenbuild 24" Groups: .602"/.720"/ .582"/ .720"/ 1.193" (avg =.7634") (.729MOA) 
Best group 21.5mm  Target after shots and math 
Target at 100 yards (target at right was used for new load development with 135 grain bergers and leverevolution and had poor results) Green dots outside of target were used as sighters between loads. 
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Reduce Spending, Limit Government, Increase Personal Freedom
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Since it's going to rain tomorrow I wanted to shoot this afternoon as I'd put my M77 Mk II VT in a Hogue stock (aluminum bedding block, not the way too flexible pillar bed stock) and wanted to see how it shot.
It was a little windy today, with a 8-10 mph half value cross gusting to 12-15 mph, and I didn't start out with an MOA challenge in mind, but the first group was great, and was on a clean target, so I thought I'd see how it would do with five groups in a row. 
100 yards: 0.712" 1.186" 1.216" 1.071" 0.963 5.148" 5.148 / 5 = 1.0296 1.030 / 1.047=0.984 MOA Ruger M77 Mk II VT 26", .308 Win, hand loaded 168 gr SMK, FGGM case, CCI-200 primer, 44.0 gr IMR-4064. Bolt Division, Dakota FAL: Ruger .308 Win - Hogue stock, BALS Mk 2 Gen 2 - Nikon Black X1000 6-24x50 - Sierra 168 gr MK hand load. Groups: 0.712"/1.186"/1.216"/1.071"/0.963" = avg. 1.030" = .984 MOA |
2012 Accuracy International AX in 6.5 Creedmoor with Factory 147gr Hornady ELD-M and Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27. Atlas bipod in front, cross-tac squeeze back in rear. Bolt division 100yd, Keyst0ne: 2012 Accuracy International AX 6.5 Creedmoor - Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27 - Hornady 147gr ELD-M. Groups: 0.834"/0.832"/0.411"/0.547"/0.544" = avg. 0.634" = 0.581 MOA |
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Originally Posted By Keyst0ne:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-xCFR2RQ/0/0a66f8d7/O/i-xCFR2RQ.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-33GHG7s/0/ae59f8f9/O/i-33GHG7s.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-828qjnK/0/2ba6c249/O/i-828qjnK.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6Zq4NNS/0/6c78c39a/O/i-6Zq4NNS.jpg 2012 Accuracy International AX in 6.5 Creedmoor with Factory 147gr Hornady ELD-M and Kahles 624i. Atlas bipod in front, cross-tac squeeze back in rear. Bolt division 100yd, Keyst0ne: Accuracy International AX 6.5 Creedmoor - Kahles 624i (SKMR3) - Hornady 147gr ELD-M. Groups: 0.834"/0.832"/0.411"/0.547"/0.544" = avg. 0.634" = 0.581 MOA |
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Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Using an old photo, I.e, not how it was shot?? |
The hardware was willing, but the flesh was weak. A couple shooter errors on the top groups kept this from being a really nice target. This won't be the last entry from this rifle, I'm certain I'll do better than this soon. My daughter hasn't done an MOA all day challenge yet but did pretty well on her 50 yard target. 2017 Accuracy International AX in 6.5 Creedmoor with Factory 140gr Hornady ELD-M, Thunderbeast Ultra 7 6.5 and Kahles 624i. Atlas bipod in front, cross-tac squeeze back in rear. Bolt division 100yd, Keyst0ne: 2017 Accuracy International AX 6.5 Creedmoor - Thunderbeast Ultra 7 6.5 - Kahles 624i (SKMR3) - Hornady 147gr ELD-M. Groups: 1.033"/0.867"/0.421"/0.696"/0.478" = avg. 0.699" = 0.640 MOA |
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Had a good day of shooting but cold. I put cold bore down as 6 degrees with the suppressor on because I would rather have data for that. I pulled the can off and shot two sighters followed by the challenge. Its hard having your body be cold but the gun get hot but when life gives you lemons you treat yourself to something sweet.
But first you take a selfie. 
First group was center up I felt pretty good about myself. I allowed very minimal time for cooling and to take a second to breathe. I started to really notice mirage at about round 8 and was noting it in my log book but it was pretty much a constant from there on. If I were to do it again I would rig up some kind of mirage strap for this kind of light weight barrel. Shot off of a BR front rest with a little midway triangle squeeze. These entered rounds 846-873 on this gun. The tipped match kings shot really well but to be very honest it felt a pretty terrible waste to be shooting them into paper at 100 yards while gaining almost nothing from it. I have looked at this challenge a couple of times and figured 25 rounds without much for human error is pretty tough and wanted to give it a try. I would guess there are some people that really enjoy this pursuit but I would rather be shooting steel in the wind or coyotes in the field I think. SPR Division JessBrie. Larue Predatar barrel, geissele free float rail mil spec trigger bushnell DMR 3.5-21 in ADM mount Black Hills 77 grain TMK 401/.696/.836/.941/.911=3.785/5=.757 0.757" / 1.047 = 0.723 MOA |
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Originally Posted By JessBrie: SPR Division JessBrie. Larue Predatar barrel, geissele free float rail mil spec trigger bushnell DMR 3.5-21 in ADM mount Black Hills 77 grain TMK 401/.696/.836/.941/.911=3.785/5=.757 0.757" / 1.047 = 0.723 MOA Check me math, I missed my nap today. |
I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: ^^^ 0.757" / 1.047 = 0.723 MOA Check me math, I missed my nap today. |
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Bumping this for ol' Painless ...
Sadly the post at top of this page is September of last year. |
I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Bumping this for ol' Painless ... Sadly the post at top of this page is September of last year. |
Just to add to what ever I have said above..remember mags and ammo are consumables. Continue buying and using quality consumables through out the process.
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This is an improvement for a rifle I have already entered a couple times up above ...this time I shot with handloads instead of factory ammo. The last entry of mine that this new entry improved upon was #44.
Picture 1: Range at 100 yards Attached File Picture 2: Target with 5 groups Attached File Picture 3: Full shot with caliper (NOT adjusted for bullet size reduction) Attached File Picture 4: Picture of rifle as shot with Bipod and Rear Bag Attached File Bolt Division with magnified optics (any precision gun) at 100 yards; newBMowner: Savage Stealth, 22” 6.5CM, Vortex Viper PST 4-16x SFP, Harris Bipod, 140gr Hornady BTHP Handloads, Groups: 0.562"/1.021"/0.770"/0.732"/.671" = avg. 0.751" = 0.717 MOA |
"Free men are not equal. Equal men are not free.” -Unknown
“An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Lt.Col. Jeff Cooper
“An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Lt.Col. Jeff Cooper
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Originally Posted By newBMowner:
This is an improvement for a rifle I have already entered a couple times up above ...this time I shot with handloads instead of factory ammo. The last entry of mine that this new entry improved upon was #44. Picture 1: Range at 100 yards https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/119115/IMG_1819-485163.JPG Picture 2: Target with 5 groups https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/119115/140gr_BTHP_42_2_gr_H4350-485164.JPG Picture 3: Full shot with caliper (NOT adjusted for bullet size reduction) https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/119115/IMG_1827b-485165.JPG Picture 4: Picture of rifle as shot with Bipod and Rear Bag https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/119115/IMG_1818b-485166.JPG Bolt Division with magnified optics (any precision gun) at 100 yards; newBMowner: Savage Stealth, 22” 6.5CM, Vortex Viper PST 4-16x SFP, Harris Bipod, 140gr Hornady BTHP Handloads, Groups: 0.562"/1.021"/0.770"/0.732"/.671" = avg. 0.751" = 0.717 MOA |
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Originally Posted By jpgolffl:
When you use software to measure group size you need to make sure the target is square within the frame of the camera. The software is 2D so any tilt of the camera will throw the measurements off due to perspective. It will make some groups larger and some smaller depending on what you used as a scale for the software. Another software tip -- measure the longest calibration distance you can -- i.e. if you have 1" squares on your target, don't just measure one square. Measure 5-8 squares (however many you have visible in the picture) and enter that distance. This will minimize error from the positioning of your start and end points. |