As some of you are aware, I am an inner-city pastor here in Chattanooga, TN. My ministry involves trying to reach the souls of some of Chattanooga's most desperate people.



For the last two months I have had gang members showing up at my house between 2 and 3:30 in the morning making threats to fire-bomb my house. I have had the police out, but they are not able to do anything about it due to the fact that we don't know the names of the individuals involved.



At first, I tried to just be peaceful and told them I would call the police and asked them to leave. After talking to the police, I took it up a few notches and threatened to shoot anyone that came onto my property with a molotov cocktail. This is just a threat due to the fact that as a white pastor I know if I kill a black person, my ministry in the black inner-city is over.



This threat has seemed to escalate matters so I decided that the next time they came, I would try a more peaceful route. My wife and I thought maybe I should try to handle things in a more Christian/pastoral way. I decided that instead of threatening, I would try to meet their hate with Christ's love and would offer them some candy and tracts that I hand out while in the inner-city and talk about Jesus.



Last night at about 2:30 a.m. I heard the doorbell ring and went down with my Glock 30 with crimson trace in hand. I went to the door, pushed back the curtain and seen a 20-25 year-old gang member (Cuz/Crypts-Crips) standing on my porch with a beer bottle with a rag fuse in his hand. I had prepared myself mentally to not be harsh or forceful in anyway, so I opened the door, offered him candy, and gave him some Christian tracts. His first response was to laugh and cuss. I then told him that each time he came to my house in the middle of the night, that I would like to go to his house the next day and talk to him about the condition of his soul.



He quickly became very agitated and pulled a pistol on me, and started trying to shoot me. He had either forgot to load the chamber or the Hi-point pistol malfunctioned. I had my glock in hand and tried to return fire but in my peaceful mindset, I had my pistol in condition 1 3 (unloaded chamber) rather than condition 3 1 (Loaded chamber).



In the process of this happening, I called 911 and the young man ran down to the sidewalk where he stood and cussed at me for awhile. By the time the police arrived, the young man and his accomplices had driven away. The police did put an APB out on the car but were not able to find it.



I am at the end of my rope and don't know what to do. As some of you know, I had a stroke in June of last year and, as with any brain injury, I need lots of sleep. I am weakened physically (wear a leg brace and use a cane) and just am not as powerful a deterrent force as I was before the stroke. With these nightly visits happening once or twice a week, I am not sleeping at night. I don't know what I have done to cause this escalation with these gang members. Before the stroke, I would have known what was said/done that incited them. I know that I am not as aware of circumstances and situations as i was before the stroke. Now, I have no idea what I have done or how to de-escalate this situation.



The police are telling me to just shoot them and put them down and I will do that if I feel for certain that my family's life is in danger. But, in the intermediate, the stress and lack of sleep are killing me. Does anyone have any thoughts on how I can remedy this situation?



Thanks as always. I am sorry for having to ask for advice.



Amos1909

It doesn't sound like there is much that you can do. My suggestion would be to LOAD your firearm of choice and wait. Your ministry may be over if something of the sort happens, but how much do you value your life?

I would look into something like this as well - Link...        

I installed a few of these on the perimeter of my grandmothers house after she was having problems with people breaking into her garage. This wasn't the model I used, but I got them from harbor freight a couple of years ago, quite cheap I might add and they still work perfectly.

ETA:    Another...

You have the right to defend yourself. Short of moving, I don't see how your situation will get better. I can tell you, that if some POS showed up on my porch in your situation, I would shoot til slidelock the threat was removed and feel no remorse. I wish you the best in luck.

Sounds like the punks are trying to build themselves up to doing something. Does it seem like each encounter is getting worst?


Do the people in the community support you? Can you rally them to your side or are they scare of the gang members?


Moving out seems to be the best bet here.

Saving Souls is what is aggravating them! It will cut into their drug business and hamper their recruiting efforts.

Amos, are the congregants of your ministry aware of your situation?  Will any of them stand by you on this issue?  I do not know you, but the posts of yours that I have read indicate that you are a stalwart and giving person.  I would hope that someone you have supported in the past might be able to help you now, even if to only broker some kind of truce.  Otherwise, it may be time to move on to greener pastures and live your life in peace with peaceable folks.  Your call.

All that said, you were fortunate to survive the draw down you described.  Next time, don't be lucky, be sure.

Not only do you have the right to defend yourself but the lord is on your side as well. You know this.

Make it so that you know they are on your property before they get to your door - the motion detector was a good idea, and there are ones for driveways as well.

Get a rifle, not a pistol, and don't open the door next time. Legally, I believe arson is a justification for deadly force, and you should check your state law on that. If they have a molotov cocktail and a means to light it.... well then you know where you sit.

Also, next time you hear the knock, pick up the phone first and dial 911, let them know the situation and leave the line open. Either they will arrive in time or you will have done what was needed.

Unfortunately in this day and age the situation is not just going to go away - you will have to meet it head first as you have done with all of gods gifts in life.

let me get this straight: You see a man at your front door, standing there with a molotov cocktail in his hand, after previously threatning you to firebomb your house, and you open the door with candy and a fuckin pamphlet? Are you out of your mind? Here's a real wake up call buddy. Why you are thinkin on your Christian ways, reflect back on how many of your faith have been killed by godless heathens, and if any of those deaths made the world a better place. There is a time for ministry, and there is a time to take care of buisness. You are all out of ministry, and now stand at a crossroads: Take your faith to rediculus lengths and see your family, yourself and your home destroyed, or set down the good book and shoot these low life scum dead between the fuckin eyes the next time they are standing on your doorstep.

At the end of the day, you can stand before the good lord and tell him you went like a lamb, or you went like a lion. That choice is yours. The reprocusions of you blowing away some ghetto rat is probably going to mean more blood, and you better be ready for that.

Or, you could quit your ministry, and find something that gives you solace in your older years, rather then dealing with this scum. Good luck.

Theology aside, shit is hitting the fan for you. It's high time you pick up a rifle, say prayers in whatever way you believe and start taking out the trash.

Amos,

I hope that God blesses you and your ministry and that you have a very speedy recovery from your stroke.  Killing one of the gang members will not only end your ministry, it puts your family in more danger, and will likely have strong psychological effects on your and your family members for the rest of your lives.  (I say this not so much to you, but to the "shoot them all" crowd.)  Shooting anyone is about the last thing any of us should want to do.

Does your PD have anyone in the gang unit who could arrange a sit down with you and the leadership of the gang?  Is there a black pastor who could go to the sit down with you?  Perhaps if you found out what you did to upset them, and apologize for it, you may be able to come to a truce.  I doubt they really want to kill you, or there wouldn't be a knock on the door before the fire was lit.  If you show the gang the "respect" they think they deserve, perhaps things will change.

Of course, if that doesn't work, and it's between you/yours and them, then color me firmly in the "shoot them all" camp.

God bless you,

David

could not have said it any better....and HE DREW DOWN ON YOU AND HE IS STLL ALIVE?????

  Your ministry might be more successful elsewhere. Sad to say but this community may be so deluded that they can only hear words from someone that looks like themselves. There are other people you can help without having to take a life.

  More practically I would quickly set up video surveillance to record what is going on around your property. If you are forced to defend yourself having evidence that can quickly prove your innocence will keep your ministry from the inevitable charges of racism and flat out lies about you that will occur after a shooting.

  Surely you realize that after a shooting it will be said that your thug/assailant/victim came to you for help/sex or to confront you about his girlfriend/sister etc? Do not let lies destroy the truth. There are plenty of good threads here on how to rig lo cost cameras and long term recorders (always the weak link) to document what is going on. Secure the house. The next step may be a burglary.

place holder brb with response





Amos, you asked in a secular forum, so you are going to get secular answers.  Now at the risk of getting the thread locked, moved, or melted I'm going to give you a more faith based response.





First lets set the record straight.  These are a few questions that you need to answer.  You do not need to post your reply, but you –– Amos –– need to  make a steadfast commitment to the answers you give.


~Is the Son of G_d (the King of the Universe) the Lord of your life?


~If yes.  Are you where you were told to be by G_d?  


~Are you sure?  See 1 John 1:4 1 John 4:1





The remainder of my answer is on the assumption that the answer is yes to those questions.  





This battle is between the gang's god and your G_d.  You need to review the passages on war.  King David's G_d was no pacifist.  G_d told David one time to wait until David could hear the Lord's army marching in the tree tops, then the Israelites could attack.





Know that the gang's god has lost the war, the G_d of Moses has won.  





Sending PM



 

In my opininon faith wont solve anything here once they start that kinda shit it only gets worse. If the gang rat is willing to stand on your doorstep and pull a gun on you already...what do you think is next? You could move out but times are kinda hard you just cant pick up and leave all the time, i think motion alarms or some kinda of camera to get there faces would be a good start.and if nothing else if it comes to an all out shtf moment you have proof this has been happening and you had every right to defend yourself.....oh and yeah the most trustworthy gun by your bed at night.

but maybe jus maybe they'll leave you alone cuz you stood up to them....but i think youll hit the lottery first....

.

Cameras and TV news  in this sort of situation.  How's homeslice gonna feel when he beats on your door and is met with the local pitbull reporter and a camera crew?

Get a referral on a good criminal defense attorney and keep his number handy. 2am with cops on the scene is not the time to try and find a lawyer.

I'm not saying its easy, but you know what you need to do.  God bless

I would call FOX news and see if publicity doesnt get the SO patrolling heavier in your area.Shotgun or carbine to answer the door.Let the gun talk next time!Document EVERYTHING that happens.Sorry your going through this crap.

install motion activated lights on your porch and the next time your door bell rings in the middle of the night call 911 immediately.  Go down and keep an eye on the thugs and don't open the door unless you must intervene with their actions or the police arrive.  Cameras would be a good thing too.

Also no one mentioned this: Do you have fire extinguishers? I'd get some big ones, as big as I could carry or wheel around.

I don't know exactly what I would do, but if the police tell you to shoot, GET IT IN WRITING! Then start dropping some hammers....... or releasing some strikers lol.

You're way past this, but my first reaction would be talk to them like adults. Ask why they are messing with me and mine. Why they feel so intent on harming me, when I've done nothing to them. Then when that doesn't work, make threats out the ass.

Also, cameras are an excellent idea. Hell, a cheap game camera from Dicks would probably work fine. And make sure you have proof that they are in fact on your property in a threatening manner. I would also start keeping one in the chamber.

They already TRIED to shoot you once.



Next time you can be sure his gun will be loaded, and yours better be as well...



I'm not usually a proponent of the 12ga 00B through the door, but this just might warrant it if it's the same guy on your doorstep next time you peek out the window...

Ask the police and/or a lawyer if they consider someone on the doorstep with an unlit firebomb after many death and arson threats constitutes deadly intent... especially after the guy has already tried to kill you... AND GET IT IN WRITING!!!

Know it's better to pull the trigger and live with the guilt of killing someone who has proven the desire to kill you than die with the guilt that they may burn your family alive as you bleed to death on the floor.

And keep a round chambered.  A gun that doesn't go bang when the trigger is pulled is a poor club.  Kinda like having a car with a bone dry fuel tank.

My answer is simple = Move. If you don't do anything you risk the chance of them either firebombing your house or shooting you be it at night or drive by. If you do shoot one of them you put yourself and your family at a greater risk of retaliation. The Internet commando in me says shoot them all, but the practical side of me says move to a better area and be done with it.  if the cops cant handle the gangs neither can you. A job is not worth your or your family's life's.

You fear that your ministry will be destroyed if you defend yourself.  I think you may be late - your ministry is already destroyed.  They have destroyed it.  If you can't do your work out of fear of reprisal, it's the same as not being able to do your work if you are dead.  And it sounds like those are the 2 choices, barring something unforeseen.

Luke 9:3-5.  Heed it.

I'm with mac1020.  Move.  There is no fixing this situation.  Eventually they'll make good on their threats and kill you, or you'll again be put into the position where you'll have to shoot one of them, and they'll come back with 10 more.

WOW.  How do you comment on something this big.  

The comments made above all ring of truth- one way or another.  You are a minister of the Gospel.  Your deisire is to promote His Kingdom.  But you are not called to be stupid either.  I am also a minister, but not to the inner-city.  I came to the realization many years ago that some people just need killing.  And I pray to the Creator that I never have to make that happen but I also know that if I can no longer go another route, then I will stop the threat.  Period.  

What does your gut tell you about the ministry you are in now?  As one person put it, if you know that He still wants you there, confronting the evil, then be wise but follow His leading.  David Wilkerson knew that he was sent to the street people of NYC.  It wasn't easy for him at all but look at the results.  

It may be time to move you and yours on.  If He gives you peace to do that, follow His leading and do not let the enemy tell you that you failed or are running away.  You see, He is the driver of the bus.  We just need to know our stop.  

May you know His plan for you and yours in this trying time.  May His peace overpower you.  May His hand of protection be all around you and your family.  Be safe and ever watchful.

Your story sounds like the basis for Deathwish 6.

At a minimum, I'd make sure your locks are excellent, make sure your wife is competent w/ your firearms and knows what to do if TSHTF and you're not there.  Also, add motion activated lights around your house, a lot of them, especially covering the front of the house and door.  Then get a camera setup and make sure one camera covers the front door clearly and is not blinded by the lights.  

If the doorbell rings again, in the middle of the night, don't stand immediately in front of the door when you check to see who it is - this is where the cameras would come in handy.  And for Heaven's sake be prepared to do what you have to to end the threat.

Also, ask the leos if they'd place a car down your street or ask them to increase patrols through the area.  Then at least if you have to call the cops they'll be close.  But again, be prepared to meet force w/ overwhelming force.

MOVE. Defending yourself will just bring more danger to your family. You dont want to be trying to scramble out of town with a bounty on your head.

Once you are moved far away and time has given things a chance to settle drive back on a Friday night at 2am without telling a sole and knock a few of them off with the deer rifle under a street light.

Just had told the wife that I was going to take it to that stage. Answer with a loaded 12 gauge. I am just so tired...

Just got a call from officer today that said he was going to put more patrols down my street. I am willing to

to meet force with force but must make certain that it is my last resort!!!

For all those that have made statements like this. Thank you!!!!

Yes.  Move.



 

This has got me out of many jams in the last few years. I have men in church that wanted to cause trouble for me but candy and kindness has won them over. They might refuse the candy once, twice, three times but never more than ten times...



The only physical thing that works better is my Crimson Trace Laser!!!!

This is the Truth!!! I am working in the Devil's playground!!! I have faced many things over the last 10 years but this is the first time that it has followed me home! Well, that is not true, it is the first time since I got married and had my sons!!!! That does change things!!

Stay prayed up and read the Psalms.

Ask a police officer to come stay the night with you and your family...many that have pride in there work would probably come over and stay, don't have there car outside, so nobody knows they are there....when they come to the door, have hime with you out of sight, he could call it in and be on scene as it is happening, if they threaten you he is a witness and if they open fire or throw anything then he is a witness...eather way you win...
You have LEO there and you have them dead to rights, if you shoot them for fear of you and your family's life....
This is just my .02 for what its worth.

This is what I am trying to figure out!!! I wish I knew what caused the reaction like this.. I have made a lot of enemies (a lot more friends than enemies) over the last 10 years, so I guess it has come home to me!!!

Well, I guess I'll be  the only one to call B.S. on this story.  Nothing about the OP's tale rings true to me. Offering them candy?!?!?!  Are you kidding me!!!!! You really thought that might work???????? I don't believe any of it.

Also, why is this posted here????????  Seems like GD would be more appropriate.

This is the only time that I am going to respond to a negitive post. Promise!!!!



I am asking a survival question and I do not care for GD.... As I have mentioned, I had already tried meeting force with force. I am a man of faith and thought that I could change it up! Needless to say "It backfired on me"!!!





I wish it was a bunch of bull! I am living it!!!!!

I had not thought about that!!! That might be an option!!!

Hide a game cam or set up a security cam so you have some evidence of who is coming to your house.  I would bet that the people in gang unit of the police department will know who it is if you get some decent pictures.

The outside of your house needs to be lit up like a battleship at night.

You are under the Lord's protection.  There is no reason to be afraid, but that doesn't mean there is no reason to be prepared.

Prayers sent.

I have been reading the posts here. I believe that God protected you and that he has started a work in that gang member. Give God a little time and I believe that he will come around. There was a good reason that his pistol didn't fire and that yours was not loaded in the chamber.
MAY GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS YOUR MINISTERY.

Amos,

With all due respect, the time to be peaceful and give candy and kindness has passed. The lord showed you this himself as you're still living due to the perp's gun not working.

How many more times do you need to be shown that the time for kindness has passed? The man attempted to kill you.

Moving is not an option right now...
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Amos1909
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  Okay moving is not an option, going Low Vis is not an option and your recovering from a stroke.

  Recommend that you go heavy and overt on surveillance. Not fake cameras, not motion sensors hooked to lights, but real cameras feeding into a DVR so you can PID the bad guys later.  Skip the "easy to install" wireless stuff and buy a pre-made kit from supercircuits. Once you get the cameras get the motion sensor lights

  Get some dogs, not just one dog, or a big friendly golden retriever but two or three Shepard/dobberman/pitbull type dogs. The dogs will be good for you and help in your recovery. If your living near the 'hood the pound will have some dogs that meet your needs and you'll be doing a good thing for the community.

   Shotgun vs handgun. Normally I would recommend  the 12 Ga hands down but you need to think if you have the physical capability to handle a shotgun and a cane, and a door and or push off a hood rat, offer candy etc. Start carrying your weapon in a  holster on you in the house. First aid kit and fire extinguisher needs to be kept handy.

Get the family on board with the rest  of this...

A huge uptick in security dogs, cameras, guns may deter a confrontation.

If all of this seems like overkill ask yourself where would you be if you had video of the gang banger with a pistol and a firebomb threading you? If during the recon the gang bangers saw the cameras and the dogs would they threatened you at your house? If they cant threaten you at your house will they threaten you at your church?

http://www.supercircuits.com/Security-Camera-Systems/4-Camera-Systems/SYRF204BLCD


Also I believe you have your terminology backwards

I had my pistol in condition 1 (unloaded chamber) rather than condition 3 (Loaded chamber).

For most mil/LE folks condition one is a round in  the chamber and condition three is a loaded magazine and an empty chamber. Don't fool around with an empty chamber, just load the weapon and leave it hot in y our holster. If you pull it out after this point you should be firing it at some one.

Aren't there some poor white people or Hispanics that need your help?

Prayers sent, Amos.  Have you told your congregation about what is going on?  Some of them may know the gang members who are harassing & threatening you.  At least, discuss it with your deacons and elders, and see if they think it worthwhile to discuss it with the congregation as a whole.

First off, I'm not going to tell you to move.  The ministry isn't a job, it's a calling.  Also, from your past posts, you do seem to be making a difference in your congregation.



I do have a few points, though.



If you're going to carry a weapon, be prepared to use it.  Condition 1: loaded chamber, safety engaged (moot on a Glock, I know) is the way to carry.  Anything less and you're fooling yourself.  If you're not willing to use it, leave it behind.



A taser is cheaper than a Glock (though the reloads are shitall expensive!) and almost invariably non-fatal.  Also, tasing a hood rat doesn't get his homies as riled as smoking him.  Of course, you'll have to deal with the reprisals and threats to not testify.



I'm not a minister, Lord knows.  Lapsed Catholic here at best.  Still, I understand inherently that God will not ever condemn you for protecting your own life or those of the innocent.  The shepherd must smite the occasional wolf to protect the flock after all.



One idea might be to find out their home ground, interface with a church there and have you a little church ladies' social.  Once the grandmothers know you, you've got better allies.



Picture through the peephole at the very least before you open the door, if you do open the door.  The preliminaries have been gotten out of the way now, and the next time you step out on the porch they might well just light you up as you step through the door.



Killing the rat at your door is the last thing you want if you can avoid it at all.  It won't solve the problem.  You don't render a snake harmless by snipping the end of the tail.  But capitulation/apology doesn't do much to render it harmless either.



You're deep in an almost assuredly unwinnable situation, Matt, and I don't envy you.  Where you go from here depends on how important your congregation is to you.



My prayers, for what they're worth, are with you.