I put a couple more cameras including one that is color night vision. It really makes a difference in identifying the foxes.    
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The color night vision camera does come with a spotlight but isn't that bright. The camera works very well in low light. The glow in their eyes comes from that spotlight. It would be nice if the foxes carried flashlights, it would make them easier to see. This is what the human eye sees. The softwhite light on the bottom right is the light from the camera. That is all it takes to get those very bright pictures above. You can see a bit of glare on the top left of the dish, it's the same glare the top of the dish in the pictures above.  |
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First time having the kits come out when I was around. I'm pretty sure there are 2 families. The female on the far right is the oldest. The one in the middle seems to be a 1 or 2 year old male. The 2 kits on the far left don't always come out together but always interact with each other. The male took food over near the kits and dropped it for them. Previously the male would take food past the shed in the back while the female would take food to the wooded area closer to the house.  |
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Thanks for posting the photo. I do have a copy of it and I'm trying to get access to an original to try get a higher resolution scan of it. Some things in that photo still exist, such as the inter window shutters. Those are still there and have not been painted. They look just like they do in the windows. A huge change is that house is brick but the house now has been covered in stucco. The cornices over all the windows were removed when they put the stucco on. The house looks a bit odd now I think, like someone who shaved their eye brows off. All the trees pictures are now guy. One of the pine trees was around 20 years ago when I first moved here. The stone wall is still there but the wall or at least the top of it has changed. Something that might not be obvious is on the far right side of the image. If you follow the roofline back you will see that the main house ends but then it looks like a structure continues closer to the ground. That is another house, an old slave quarters that no longer exists on the property. |
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Originally Posted By bajagringo: Thank you SWIRE for spending your morning showing me around your house and property. Beautiful property and really cool house. @bajagringo Thanks for taking time out of your trip to see family to stop by. It was great meeting another Arfommer in person. You are welcome to bring the family over to see the foxes in the evening if you like. They usually come out around 9:30pm now. Probably not worth the drive but is pretty neat to see. Hopefully the bugs didn't chew you up too bad. For everyone reading I have only sprayed for mosquitoes on the top 1/3 of the property and as soon as we crossed that line bajagringo was getting swarmed and we had to go back and get bug spray. The creek and woods makes for nice scenery but they also create a great place for mosquitoes to thrive. I use a combination of Bifenthrin and Permethrin out of a backpack mister to keep them in check but haven't had time to get spray the whole property yet. |
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The whole family is starting to come out every night. The mother has been absent for about 5 days and it was just the little ones (half grown now) that were showing up on their own.  |
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@Kitties-with-Sigs How much tomato production is needed to prove that a tomato line doesn't care about juglone? This is that walnut soil that I dumped 40 gallons of walnuts into 2 years in a row. The plants germinated in that soil, they were all volunteers, and they are grown under the canopy of the young walnut tree. All the plants are less than 2 feet away from the trunk of the tree. Tomato size is just smaller than a Ping-Pong ball.  |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: @Kitties-with-Sigs How much tomato production is needed to prove that a tomato line doesn't care about juglone? This is that walnut soil that I dumped 40 gallons of walnuts into 2 years in a row. The plants germinated in that soil, they were all volunteers, and they are grown under the canopy of the young walnut tree. All the plants are less than 2 feet away from the trunk of the tree. Tomato size is just smaller than a Ping-Pong ball. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_tomatoes-3612861.jpg I don't know that such a metric exists. That's really good production as compared to what I would have expected--or might still expect from something you buy at the store and plant there. Have you eaten any of them? How is the flavor? |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: I don't know that such a metric exists. That's really good production as compared to what I would have expected--or might still expect from something you buy at the store and plant there. Have you eaten any of them? How is the flavor? Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: @Kitties-with-Sigs How much tomato production is needed to prove that a tomato line doesn't care about juglone? This is that walnut soil that I dumped 40 gallons of walnuts into 2 years in a row. The plants germinated in that soil, they were all volunteers, and they are grown under the canopy of the young walnut tree. All the plants are less than 2 feet away from the trunk of the tree. Tomato size is just smaller than a Ping-Pong ball. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_tomatoes-3612861.jpg I don't know that such a metric exists. That's really good production as compared to what I would have expected--or might still expect from something you buy at the store and plant there. Have you eaten any of them? How is the flavor? Whatever the metric might be I think that photo is very solid evidence that this line of tomatoes 100% does not care about walnut trees or juglone. I've neglected my gardens this year, never watered them once and barely pulled any weeds. The only tomatoes that have produced are these growing under the walnut tree. I have several varieties in my regular garden and even a few store bought plants. There are finally some green tomatoes forming on a couple of them but no red tomatoes so far. Right now the weeds are wilting because it has been so hot and dry...yet these tomatoes keep on growing fine. The flavor is decent and better than store bought. I haven't eaten many just because I want to see how they perform. I will start harvesting tomatoes for their seeds soon. |
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I've had other experiments going on but the squirrels and groundhogs have compromised them. I'm still getting some positive results but I can't state which line is which any more. This spring I took 100% walnut organic matter including leaves, twigs, walnuts, and roof debris from under the walnut trees and planted tomato seeds directly into it. According to what people say the seeds shouldn't have even germinated but they did. The plants should have been stunted and deformed but they grew fast and healthy. They shouldn't have produced, especially in small containers, but they flowered and one has produced a tiny tomato so far. Here is what I started with, all walnut organic matter, and planted multiple lines of seeds.  The tomato seeds germinated but half the plants in that container are walnut trees that grew from the walnuts.  Container full of very healthy tomato plants and walnut seedlings!  Larger tray of tomato seeds in walnut material. You can even see the blossom on the plant on the right. Those plants are from seeds from the 2024 volunteers.  |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: Whatever the metric might be I think that photo is very solid evidence that this line of tomatoes 100% does not care about walnut trees or juglone. I've neglected my gardens this year, never watered them once and barely pulled any weeds. The only tomatoes that have produced are these growing under the walnut tree. I have several varieties in my regular garden and even a few store bought plants. There are finally some green tomatoes forming on a couple of them but no red tomatoes so far. Right now the weeds are wilting because it has been so hot and dry...yet these tomatoes keep on growing fine. The flavor is decent and better than store bought. I haven't eaten many just because I want to see how they perform. I will start harvesting tomatoes for their seeds soon. |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: Whatever the metric might be I think that photo is very solid evidence that this line of tomatoes 100% does not care about walnut trees or juglone. I've neglected my gardens this year, never watered them once and barely pulled any weeds. The only tomatoes that have produced are these growing under the walnut tree. I have several varieties in my regular garden and even a few store bought plants. There are finally some green tomatoes forming on a couple of them but no red tomatoes so far. Right now the weeds are wilting because it has been so hot and dry...yet these tomatoes keep on growing fine. The flavor is decent and better than store bought. I haven't eaten many just because I want to see how they perform. I will start harvesting tomatoes for their seeds soon. Maybe I can actually get to them next spring if you have extra to offer. I'm trying to get my little greenhouse done so I can start seeds. The weather this year is a little unhinged. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: I've had other experiments going on but the squirrels and groundhogs have compromised them. I'm still getting some positive results but I can't state which line is which any more. This spring I took 100% walnut organic matter including leaves, twigs, walnuts, and roof debris from under the walnut trees and planted tomato seeds directly into it. According to what people say the seeds shouldn't have even germinated but they did. The plants should have been stunted and deformed but they grew fast and healthy. They shouldn't have produced, especially in small containers, but they flowered and one has produced a tiny tomato so far. Here is what I started with, all walnut organic matter, and planted multiple lines of seeds. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_pots21-3616690.jpg The tomato seeds germinated but half the plants in that container are walnut trees that grew from the walnuts. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_pots22-3616693.jpg Container full of very healthy tomato plants and walnut seedlings! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_pots23-3616688.jpg Larger tray of tomato seeds in walnut material. You can even see the blossom on the plant on the right. Those plants are from seeds from the 2024 volunteers. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_pots24-3616687.jpg To my eye, that's impressive results. Now I don't know all the factors. I'm not sure anybody does. I think you have more moisture in the lower part of your property where the garden is, and that may be helping with the production of the ones in the ground. That is not what resulted in germination and growth of the ones in your containers. I also don' tknow how many seeds you planted and how many produced viable transplants. But if you'd asked me ten years ago whether anybody could grow tomatoes under Juglans nigra I would have said " I think absolutely not." I doubt there is much research that can prove you wrong, right, or anything in between because most people aren't trying to grow gardens under these trees. But for folks who have a lot of these trees and value them, but want to grow food, to my mind this is an absolute victory. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By MongooseKY: Does juglone production increase as the walnut ages and increases in size? That's an interesting question. My guess would be yes, to a point. Like old people tend to produce lower amounts of hormones and such, my guess would be that once a walnut hits a certain point, it no longer needs to outcompete its surrounding plant life, and either levels off, or decreases production. HOWEVER that is pure guess and may be flat wrong. I'm not sure this has been researched but if I can get a few minutes I might look for it. Prob won't be easy to find. I'm thinking about it with human logic. A little plant needs to produce a lot of "STAY AWAY" to ensure it doesn't get overtaken by a stronger, more aggressive plant species. Once you're 50' tall and 3' around, the only thing that might take you out is disease, bugs or humans. Plants ain't gonna touch you. If that makes sense? But that doesn't mean that's how the tree acts. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Maybe I can actually get to them next spring if you have extra to offer. I'm trying to get my little greenhouse done so I can start seeds. The weather this year is a little unhinged. Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Whatever the metric might be I think that photo is very solid evidence that this line of tomatoes 100% does not care about walnut trees or juglone. I've neglected my gardens this year, never watered them once and barely pulled any weeds. The only tomatoes that have produced are these growing under the walnut tree. I have several varieties in my regular garden and even a few store bought plants. There are finally some green tomatoes forming on a couple of them but no red tomatoes so far. Right now the weeds are wilting because it has been so hot and dry...yet these tomatoes keep on growing fine. The flavor is decent and better than store bought. I haven't eaten many just because I want to see how they perform. I will start harvesting tomatoes for their seeds soon. Maybe I can actually get to them next spring if you have extra to offer. I'm trying to get my little greenhouse done so I can start seeds. The weather this year is a little unhinged. The weather this has been a wild ride. Pretty much 3 months of rain, at least 5 days a week, in the spring and now over a month of nothing. I was looking around my garden the other day and area by some hostas was clear. I was pondering who came over and weeded but then I realized the weeds had actually just died off from the heat and drought. I've run my cistern dry. The creek is at a record low level from the drought but they also removed a down stream low-head dam which dropped my creek more than a foot on top of it. I can't get water out of the creek because of it. City water is too expensive to use on a garden or lawn. It comes out to something like a $3 for 100 gallons. The cistern holds about 5,000 and would cost $150 to fill up with city water. I have a 10'x12' Harbor Freight greenhouse I need to get built too. Trying to figure out how to keep it heated a bit in the spring and fall to extend my growing season. I have a new experiment going on, a friend gave me dragon fruit cuttings, and that plant does not like temps below 40 degrees . So I have to figure out something for winter. |
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: I'm trying to get my little greenhouse done so I can start seeds. Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: I'm trying to get my little greenhouse done so I can start seeds. I'm going to start harvesting seeds soon. If you send me an address I can mail you some. That way you have them next spring when you are ready. There will most certainly be more volunteers than I will use next spring as well. I harvesting seeds at different times trying to get any variation in genetics. For example the first ones produced in the summer to lean towards an early production line, the largest growing right now for a size line, if I get any that are ripening now for a drought tolerant line, and then I select the latest/strongest in the fall. With animals the female has influence on some of the genetic markers that get turned on or suppressed. The same is said to happen with plants. I have no idea if I'm handling the process correctly but I'm giving it a shot. Some background on "epigenetic mechanisms": This occurs primarily through epigenetic mechanisms, where environmental factors alter gene expression without changing the underlying DNA sequence. These modifications can include DNA methylation, histone changes, or non-coding RNA influences, and they often have long-term effects on the offspring's health, behavior, and development. In plants, environmental factors like temperature, drought, nutrient availability, or pathogen exposure during seed development can induce epigenetic changes such as DNA methylation, histone modifications, or small RNA-mediated regulation that affect which genetic markers (genes) are expressed in the offspring. For tomatoes specifically, studies show that environmental stresses during the reproductive phase (e.g., flowering or fruit development) can lead to epigenetic modifications in seeds. For instance, heat stress or water deficiency can alter DNA methylation patterns, affecting traits like seed germination, fruit size, or stress tolerance in the next generation. These changes can be transgenerational, meaning the offspring plants may exhibit altered growth or resilience even if they don't face the same environmental conditions as the parent plant. While the mechanisms are similar to those in animals, plants have unique features, like a lack of a germline, allowing somatic cells to directly contribute to reproduction, which can amplify the transmission of epigenetic changes. This makes plants, including tomatoes, highly responsive to environmental cues during seed development, influencing the genetic expression in their progeny. In plants, like tomatoes, somatic cells can give rise to reproductive structures (e.g., pollen or ovules) because plants lack a dedicated germline. This allows environmental factors affecting somatic cells during a plant's life to influence epigenetic changes in the offspring. In theory it is possible for my stress tests to produce changes in the plant. Whether that is what is happening, I have no clue. What I do know is I have a of tomatoes will produce in smaller than Ping-Pong ball size tomatoes in almost any conditions. |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: The weather this has been a wild ride. Pretty much 3 months of rain, at least 5 days a week, in the spring and now over a month of nothing. I was looking around my garden the other day and area by some hostas was clear. I was pondering who came over and weeded but then I realized the weeds had actually just died off from the heat and drought. I've run my cistern dry. The creek is at a record low level from the drought but they also removed a down stream low-head dam which dropped my creek more than a foot on top of it. I can't get water out of the creek because of it. City water is too expensive to use on a garden or lawn. It comes out to something like a $3 for 100 gallons. The cistern holds about 5,000 and would cost $150 to fill up with city water. I have a 10'x12' Harbor Freight greenhouse I need to get built too. Trying to figure out how to keep it heated a bit in the spring and fall to extend my growing season. I have a new experiment going on, a friend gave me dragon fruit cuttings, and that plant does not like temps below 40 degrees . So I have to figure out something for winter. Do you have any pawpaws on your property? I have a patch with several young trees and a few producers. I've been contemplating trying to start some from seed but supposedly they are difficult to start that way. I think it's a really neat fruit but have had a hard time getting much production out of the ones I have since they have pollination challenges. |
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Originally Posted By MongooseKY: It has been a crazy summer here in KY hasn't it? We went from "is it ever going to stop raining" to "OMG it's the surface of the sun and it's still raining" to "the ground is so hard and dry I can't dig in it" over the course of 2 months. It's nice to have pleasant temps right now but boy do we need some rain. Looks like we might get some this week but it doesn't sound like it's going to be anywhere near what we need. Do you have any pawpaws on your property? I have a patch with several young trees and a few producers. I've been contemplating trying to start some from seed but supposedly they are difficult to start that way. I think it's a really neat fruit but have had a hard time getting much production out of the ones I have since they have pollination challenges. I do not have any Paw Paw trees or any fruit trees really. Of the dozen fruit trees I've planted only one peach tree has survived but I believe squirrels still all the peaches. The walnut trees seem to kill off the others and most the property has tall mature trees that shade things too much for anything else to grow. Next year the back yard will change a bit. The city asked/demanded a 30ft easement across the back of my property. They are clear cutting everything and then digging a 10ft deep trench for the lines. I'm losing fewer trees than I thought I would, many are right at the edge of that 30ft mark but there will be two 50ft tall maple trees that will be taken out. The loss of fall colors in that area will be disappointing but it will open up a section to more sun. That opening should give me room to plant new fruit and nut trees. Do you have a Rural King near you? In the spring they have reasonably priced trees and I've seen Paw Paw trees every once in awhile. |
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| My wife has about 10 Paw Paw trees on our property. None are to the fruiting phase yet. Apparently they are a pain to get started in that they require shade off the start and then fruit after a few years. On top of that, there are so many varieties of fruit flavor that it is a deep hole to go down finding the one you like. If you'd like to know where my wife got the ones we ordered. |
Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: Does Paw Paw need multiple trees for good pollination? I do not have any Paw Paw trees or any fruit trees really. Of the dozen fruit trees I've planted only one peach tree has survived but I believe squirrels still all the peaches. The walnut trees seem to kill off the others and most the property has tall mature trees that shade things too much for anything else to grow. Next year the back yard will change a bit. The city asked/demanded a 30ft easement across the back of my property. They are clear cutting everything and then digging a 10ft deep trench for the lines. I'm losing fewer trees than I thought I would, many are right at the edge of that 30ft mark but there will be two 50ft tall maple trees that will be taken out. The loss of fall colors in that area will be disappointing but it will open up a section to more sun. That opening should give me room to plant new fruit and nut trees. Do you have a Rural King near you? In the spring they have reasonably priced trees and I've seen Paw Paw trees every once in awhile. Georgetown is my nearest RK, and is about the same distance as Winchester. I never thought to look for fruit trees there - I will have to check them out come spring planting time. |
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Originally Posted By turtle2472: My wife has about 10 Paw Paw trees on our property. None are to the fruiting phase yet. Apparently they are a pain to get started in that they require shade off the start and then fruit after a few years. On top of that, there are so many varieties of fruit flavor that it is a deep hole to go down finding the one you like. If you'd like to know where my wife got the ones we ordered. I didn't realize there were different varieties/flavors. Since the fruit isn't sold in stores I'm going to assume it isn't the greatest flavor/texture or it is an acquired taste. Or is it the fact that they are difficult to fruit and take too long so people just don't bother with them? I've been to a winery that made wine from paw paw and it was ok tasting. That's my extent of knowledge on the flavor. |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: I didn't realize there were different varieties/flavors. Since the fruit isn't sold in stores I'm going to assume it isn't the greatest flavor/texture or it is an acquired taste. Or is it the fact that they are difficult to fruit and take too long so people just don't bother with them? I've been to a winery that made wine from paw paw and it was ok tasting. That's my extent of knowledge on the flavor.  They have a very soft texture and the flavor is sort of like a cross between a banana and a mango. They have LOTS of big seeds though. If you ever get a chance to try one, I highly recommend it, if nothing else so that you can say you've been there, done that 
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: I didn't realize there were different varieties/flavors. Since the fruit isn't sold in stores I'm going to assume it isn't the greatest flavor/texture or it is an acquired taste. Or is it the fact that they are difficult to fruit and take too long so people just don't bother with them? I've been to a winery that made wine from paw paw and it was ok tasting. That's my extent of knowledge on the flavor. The problem with the fruit is that it doesn't preserve well. You pretty much have to have it fresh. There are some preservation methods IIRC, but not your typical canning, freeze drying etc... I'll see what I can dig up on it. ETA: Yeah, what he said! |
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@Kitties-with-Sigs Onn a scale of 1 to 10 how would rate you rate this as evidence that my tomato line does not care about juglone one bit. This is a volunteer plant that germinated in the walnut soil that had 40 gallons of walnuts dumped in it 2 years in a row. It also grew up less than 16 inches away from this walnut tree and the tomato vine is climbing the walnut tree. It is in heavy walnut soil, growing in the root space of a walnut tree, is climbing the walnut tree, flowered, and produced tomatoes.  |
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: @Kitties-with-Sigs Onn a scale of 1 to 10 how would rate you rate this as evidence that my tomato line does not care about juglone one bit. This is a volunteer plant that germinated in the walnut soil that had 40 gallons of walnuts dumped in it 2 years in a row. It also grew up less than 16 inches away from this walnut tree and the tomato vine is climbing the walnut tree. It is in heavy walnut soil, growing in the root space of a walnut tree, is climbing the walnut tree, flowered, and produced tomatoes. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tom_walnut-3638649.jpg This is a really difficult rating to make for a lot of reasons. So there's two ways to read your question. The first way--how would I rate this as EVIDENCE? I cannot rate the validity of the evidence itself, because I've been taught how to set up a randomized experiment and make sure it's done just a certain way. No matter what I actually think, I can't "unsee" that training. So while your experiment is far beyond anecdotal (to my thinking) it is also not done to "university standards" blah blah blah. So rating the validity of the evidence might not be the right tack to take. HOWEVER.. Can I rate how many f*cks I think this tomato gives about juglone? Yes. Not scientifically but Yes I can. 1 being the tomato cares a LOT and 10 being the tomato has zero effs to give.... Off the cuff, without any time to mull it, my inclination is to give it a 6. You have no idea how random and arbitrary that is. Some reasoning: 1-Would the tomato be more robust, with more branches and more fruit, if it were not in the juglone soil? 2-Would the tomatoes be larger if it were not in juglone rich soil? 3-Will the tomatoes perform in OTHER juglone rich soil beyond yours? 4-Will the tomatoes continue to produce in subsequent generations to at least this level, in juglone-rich soil? 5-Is there any blight on these tomatoes? If so, would the tomatoes be MORE disease resistant in regular soil? Or would they get blight worse, or does it make no difference? Basically, is the presence of the juglone doing ANYTHING harmful to this tomato plant? Is the tomato completely armored against the effect? Or is it compensating and struggling? Dunno. There are other questions that swirl around, some relevant maybe, some not (not all of these are relevant to the immediate question you asked) but since I don't know the answer to any of these, the question of whether the Juglone-proof tomato is truly juglone proof, or if it's just surviving the best it can, cannot be answered by anybody (I don't think). Lots of study, lots of testing, lots of planting in the same conditions (same shade, same water, same air quality, same overall randomized environmental conditions, etc blah blah blah) both on-site (but with NO juglone present --not an easy experiment to set up)and on another site far away from any black walnuts, with both plots amended to a certain level of plant-available N, P, K and micros, would be of interest. But you are not in the business of running randomized trials. The thing I believe is so important is... If people need food, and have limited options available for growing food, being able to grow tomatoes like THIS ONE under trees that are trying to kill them, is a very, very good thing. A few hundred years ago those tomatoes would have made a regular gardener dance in little circles, with no black walnuts in sight. Now we are used to ginormous, glorious heirloom hybrid fruits that weigh a pound each. I don't know what type of tomato you started with. Was it a full-size beefsteak? Or was it smaller, like a salad tomato? (I know they weren't cherries or you would have said. I think I would remember that.) So you see, my rating is as random as a rating can get. But I am truly surprised and impressed with what you've been able to do across a few years. Even now, those fruits are beautiful to my eye. Do they taste good? I wonder if they taste different in the juglone-rich soil than they would in regular dirt. This is why science is so interesting to me. The farther you go, the more fascinating it gets.  Are you saving seeds from that? 
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Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: This is a really difficult rating to make for a lot of reasons. So there's two ways to read your question. The first way--how would I rate this as EVIDENCE? I cannot rate the validity of the evidence itself, because I've been taught how to set up a randomized experiment and make sure it's done just a certain way. No matter what I actually think, I can't "unsee" that training. So while your experiment is far beyond anecdotal (to my thinking) it is also not done to "university standards" blah blah blah. So rating the validity of the evidence might not be the right tack to take. HOWEVER.. Can I rate how many f*cks I think this tomato gives about juglone? Yes. Not scientifically but Yes I can. 1 being the tomato cares a LOT and 10 being the tomato has zero effs to give.... Off the cuff, without any time to mull it, my inclination is to give it a 6. You have no idea how random and arbitrary that is. Some reasoning: 1-Would the tomato be more robust, with more branches and more fruit, if it were not in the juglone soil? 2-Would the tomatoes be larger if it were not in juglone rich soil? 3-Will the tomatoes perform in OTHER juglone rich soil beyond yours? 4-Will the tomatoes continue to produce in subsequent generations to at least this level, in juglone-rich soil? 5-Is there any blight on these tomatoes? If so, would the tomatoes be MORE disease resistant in regular soil? Or would they get blight worse, or does it make no difference? Basically, is the presence of the juglone doing ANYTHING harmful to this tomato plant? Is the tomato completely armored against the effect? Or is it compensating and struggling? Dunno. There are other questions that swirl around, some relevant maybe, some not (not all of these are relevant to the immediate question you asked) but since I don't know the answer to any of these, the question of whether the Juglone-proof tomato is truly juglone proof, or if it's just surviving the best it can, cannot be answered by anybody (I don't think). Lots of study, lots of testing, lots of planting in the same conditions (same shade, same water, same air quality, same overall randomized environmental conditions, etc blah blah blah) both on-site (but with NO juglone present --not an easy experiment to set up)and on another site far away from any black walnuts, with both plots amended to a certain level of plant-available N, P, K and micros, would be of interest. But you are not in the business of running randomized trials. The thing I believe is so important is... If people need food, and have limited options available for growing food, being able to grow tomatoes like THIS ONE under trees that are trying to kill them, is a very, very good thing. A few hundred years ago those tomatoes would have made a regular gardener dance in little circles, with no black walnuts in sight. Now we are used to ginormous, glorious heirloom hybrid fruits that weigh a pound each. I don't know what type of tomato you started with. Was it a full-size beefsteak? Or was it smaller, like a salad tomato? (I know they weren't cherries or you would have said. I think I would remember that.) So you see, my rating is as random as a rating can get. But I am truly surprised and impressed with what you've been able to do across a few years. Even now, those fruits are beautiful to my eye. Do they taste good? I wonder if they taste different in the juglone-rich soil than they would in regular dirt. This is why science is so interesting to me. The farther you go, the more fascinating it gets. Are you saving seeds from that? I'll give you the point that my experiment is a one off and lacking all controls...but argue it is repeatable both in quantity and time. I've received a consistent result in heavily modified soil across multiple plants for years. Do I know for sure that a bird didn't drop a seed from somewhere for that plant this year? No. I can't certify that didn't happen. What I do know is a whole bunch of 2nd generation volunteer plants grew out of the walnut soil. The same soil I dumbed 40 gallons of walnuts in last year and about the same amount the year before. This spring I did not plant anything from seed in that bed. Everything that grew was a volunteer. Most of what grew last year was volunteer. The fact that any tomato germinated in the soil is a great feat but not quantifiable. I have other side experiments, mainly for confirmation purposes. I have buckets and containers full of 100% walnut material and watered by "walnut tea". The same line (but not the volunteers) germinated, grew, flowered, and started producing tomatoes as well. Squirrels and ground hogs have compromised the integrity of those experiments as well but there are still results that match the main test bed. The walnut tree last year was just a little thing and wouldn't have contributed much juglone. The walnut tree this year is getting close to 10ft tall but hasn't produced any walnuts. I'm not sure at what point a walnut tree starts toxify the soil with its roots so again nothing quantifiable. Besides the juglone tolerance feature I have also been cultivating for drought tolerance. We had a drought all summer long. These plants might have been watered twice. The typical response of plants wilting after a rain after a long dry spell did not happen. These plants produced tomatoes when the regular garden did not. 1. I moved some of the volunteers to my regular garden, the plants there are more robust but they are treated better and one would expect that. 2. Doubtful that the plants will produce larger in different soil but they might have some genetics remaining that would allow for it. My line started out as medium size tomatoes. Each year they produced smaller and smaller tomatoes until they became the size they are now about 4 years ago. However, there is one volunteer (which could be a bird drop) that is larger. It is right at the edge of the walnut soil patch and has medium size tomatoes. Not sure what to make of it but I will be collecting seeds from it and seeing where it goes. 3. This is the big question. From what I've seen I would put money on it producing in other juglone soil. But I have no way to verify it. 4. Yes, this has already happened. This year is 100% volunteer from last year and produced the exact same results as last year despite the addition of 40 gallons of walnuts. 5. This line gets black spots on the leaves and the lower leaves turn brown and fall off. This happens in my regular garden with almost all varieties as well. I select end of year plants, such as the one pictures, to know the plant will keep growing. Not sure if that is vine feature, no reason to support the lower leaves after tomatoes were produced or if it is just a blight problem in my garden. The tomatoes I selected for seeds are all without cracks and blemishes. The plants grow long and don't bush out much. I also prune suckers but compared to the others these plants will grow to the top of a 50" cage, all the way back down to the ground, and then continue to grow until frost. I'm assuming that is related to the specific type of plant it is. The parents of the line would grow maybe 5 feet tall and be more a bush type than a vine. I Usually don't eat these tomatoes since I'm observing them and want to see what the plant and fruit does. It also reduces my options for seeds, even though I have more than enough. I do try them and they are better than store bought. They do taste different from the ones in the regular garden but I think that is expected given the walnut material they are grown in. It could also be I waited longer to eat them and that changed things. Now that I've gotten a consistent result and volunteers there are more aspects that I can focus on. The volunteers are a great results but I can't select the tomato they came from. I bought an actual greenhouse but still need to get it setup. That will help some with the experiments and being able to conduct better tests. |
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The amending with walnuts operation has begun this. Thirty gallons of walnuts added so far.  The bag in the tree is protecting the red tomato. I don't want it to fall off and be lost or birds to eat it.  |
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Fox family. From what I can tell there are 4 young foxes from 2 different families. The mom will come out but she is very aggressive towards all but one of the younger ones. Recently a new full size fox showed up, I'm assuming the male/father of one of the families. He stays very far away. I can tell he was new as his eyes glow a different shade of color and for the first month when I would toss a hotdog his direction he would run off scared not knowing what was going on. 
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: The amending with walnuts operation has begun this. Thirty gallons of walnuts added so far. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_soil_garden_2025_10_adding_walnut-3642130.jpg The bag in the tree is protecting the red tomato. I don't want it to fall off and be lost or birds to eat it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_soil_garden_2025_10-3642131.jpg How do you manage all of those nuts turning into new walnut trees next season? |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
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Originally Posted By SWIRE: I'll give you the point that my experiment is a one off and lacking all controls...but argue it is repeatable both in quantity and time. I've received a consistent result in heavily modified soil across multiple plants for years. Do I know for sure that a bird didn't drop a seed from somewhere for that plant this year? No. I can't certify that didn't happen. What I do know is a whole bunch of 2nd generation volunteer plants grew out of the walnut soil. The same soil I dumbed 40 gallons of walnuts in last year and about the same amount the year before. This spring I did not plant anything from seed in that bed. Everything that grew was a volunteer. Most of what grew last year was volunteer. The fact that any tomato germinated in the soil is a great feat but not quantifiable. I have other side experiments, mainly for confirmation purposes. I have buckets and containers full of 100% walnut material and watered by "walnut tea". The same line (but not the volunteers) germinated, grew, flowered, and started producing tomatoes as well. Squirrels and ground hogs have compromised the integrity of those experiments as well but there are still results that match the main test bed. The walnut tree last year was just a little thing and wouldn't have contributed much juglone. The walnut tree this year is getting close to 10ft tall but hasn't produced any walnuts. I'm not sure at what point a walnut tree starts toxify the soil with its roots so again nothing quantifiable. Besides the juglone tolerance feature I have also been cultivating for drought tolerance. We had a drought all summer long. These plants might have been watered twice. The typical response of plants wilting after a rain after a long dry spell did not happen. These plants produced tomatoes when the regular garden did not. 1. I moved some of the volunteers to my regular garden, the plants there are more robust but they are treated better and one would expect that. 2. Doubtful that the plants will produce larger in different soil but they might have some genetics remaining that would allow for it. My line started out as medium size tomatoes. Each year they produced smaller and smaller tomatoes until they became the size they are now about 4 years ago. However, there is one volunteer (which could be a bird drop) that is larger. It is right at the edge of the walnut soil patch and has medium size tomatoes. Not sure what to make of it but I will be collecting seeds from it and seeing where it goes. 3. This is the big question. From what I've seen I would put money on it producing in other juglone soil. But I have no way to verify it. 4. Yes, this has already happened. This year is 100% volunteer from last year and produced the exact same results as last year despite the addition of 40 gallons of walnuts. 5. This line gets black spots on the leaves and the lower leaves turn brown and fall off. This happens in my regular garden with almost all varieties as well. I select end of year plants, such as the one pictures, to know the plant will keep growing. Not sure if that is vine feature, no reason to support the lower leaves after tomatoes were produced or if it is just a blight problem in my garden. The tomatoes I selected for seeds are all without cracks and blemishes. The plants grow long and don't bush out much. I also prune suckers but compared to the others these plants will grow to the top of a 50" cage, all the way back down to the ground, and then continue to grow until frost. I'm assuming that is related to the specific type of plant it is. The parents of the line would grow maybe 5 feet tall and be more a bush type than a vine. I Usually don't eat these tomatoes since I'm observing them and want to see what the plant and fruit does. It also reduces my options for seeds, even though I have more than enough. I do try them and they are better than store bought. They do taste different from the ones in the regular garden but I think that is expected given the walnut material they are grown in. It could also be I waited longer to eat them and that changed things. Now that I've gotten a consistent result and volunteers there are more aspects that I can focus on. The volunteers are a great results but I can't select the tomato they came from. I bought an actual greenhouse but still need to get it setup. That will help some with the experiments and being able to conduct better tests. I am trying to get my greenhouse up and viable for seed starting this coming spring. If so, I would like to beg a few of your (not a lot. Don't want to waste them, and given the upheaval in my life at the moment, there's no guarantee I won't fail due to life) seeds, to see if I can start them in my greenhouse, and if so, I can plant a couple of them in juglone-rich soil that has been receiving juglone for nearly 200 years. I believe you offered before but I wasn't at a point where I could try. I don't know what the winter will bring but hopefully I will be more flexible in the spring. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
|
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: How do you manage all of those nuts turning into new walnut trees next season? Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: The amending with walnuts operation has begun this. Thirty gallons of walnuts added so far. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_soil_garden_2025_10_adding_walnut-3642130.jpg The bag in the tree is protecting the red tomato. I don't want it to fall off and be lost or birds to eat it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_soil_garden_2025_10-3642131.jpg How do you manage all of those nuts turning into new walnut trees next season? |
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: I am trying to get my greenhouse up and viable for seed starting this coming spring. If so, I would like to beg a few of your (not a lot. Don't want to waste them, and given the upheaval in my life at the moment, there's no guarantee I won't fail due to life) seeds, to see if I can start them in my greenhouse, and if so, I can plant a couple of them in juglone-rich soil that has been receiving juglone for nearly 200 years. I believe you offered before but I wasn't at a point where I could try. I don't know what the winter will bring but hopefully I will be more flexible in the spring. I have so many seeds that I'm happy to share. A one inch sized tomato will spit out 50+ seeds. I only grow about 5 plants in my test bed. In a couple of weeks I'll have seeds I can mail to you. I already have a couple collections of seeds from my line but they aren't from the walnut tree climbing plant. The plant climbing the tree is on the north side of the tree, about 16 inches away from it. It was shaded by the walnut leaves, growing in the walnuts roots, in the middle of the heavy walnut soil, was not watered during the drought, and it was a volunteer that germinated this spring. It checks every box for being a great test case. The only issue the plant has is it is susceptible to this form of blight. The bottom leaves get the spots, turn yellow, and turn brown and die off right below the tomatoes. It progresses up the plant about the same speed the tomatoes ripen. 
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This is one of my side test case experiments. The groundhogs keep chewing the plant back so I had to move it way up out of reach. It is a 5 gallon bucket filled with fresh matter from under a walnut tree. Leaves, branches, walnuts...etc. and watered with walnut tea. There are half a dozen walnut saplings that germinated in it.  I also have tomatoes that germinated in it, grew, and are producing tomatoes. This tomato is larger than the one on the plant climbing the tree. The plant does suffer from the same blight problem.  |
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Do all your other tomatoes get that blight? This year I planted some cherokee purple, some Sun sugar (cherry style) and some Mr. Stripey. Mr. Stripey turned out to be just a yellow-orange tomato so I dunno what's up with that. Anyway, they all seem to have varying resistance to blight. But none are all the way resistant. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Do all your other tomatoes get that blight? This year I planted some cherokee purple, some Sun sugar (cherry style) and some Mr. Stripey. Mr. Stripey turned out to be just a yellow-orange tomato so I dunno what's up with that. Anyway, they all seem to have varying resistance to blight. But none are all the way resistant. We also raised Mr Stripeys this year that had very little red to them - mostly yellow-orange like yours. Still delicious though, but I hate the way heirloom tomatoes tend to split all around the stem. Ugly but delicious
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01010111 | 57 | 127 | LXXXVII
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Originally Posted By MongooseKY: Try some sungold cherries if you like the Sun Sugar. Oddly, I find them to be just a tad sweeter. We also raised Mr Stripeys this year that had very little red to them - mostly yellow-orange like yours. Still delicious though, but I hate the way heirloom tomatoes tend to split all around the stem. Ugly but delicious I made effort to either keep the water consistent or harvest before rain this season, and I had less of that cracking and a LOT less splitting on the body of the fruit.. I was surprised how MUCH less of it I had. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
|
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Do all your other tomatoes get that blight? This year I planted some cherokee purple, some Sun sugar (cherry style) and some Mr. Stripey. Mr. Stripey turned out to be just a yellow-orange tomato so I dunno what's up with that. Anyway, they all seem to have varying resistance to blight. But none are all the way resistant. What was interesting this spring is I was at Home Depot and some of the tomato plants they were selling had that blight already with brown spots and leaf turning yellow indicating it was dying. |
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Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: I made effort to either keep the water consistent or harvest before rain this season, and I had less of that cracking and a LOT less splitting on the body of the fruit.. I was surprised how MUCH less of it I had. Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By MongooseKY: Try some sungold cherries if you like the Sun Sugar. Oddly, I find them to be just a tad sweeter. We also raised Mr Stripeys this year that had very little red to them - mostly yellow-orange like yours. Still delicious though, but I hate the way heirloom tomatoes tend to split all around the stem. Ugly but delicious I made effort to either keep the water consistent or harvest before rain this season, and I had less of that cracking and a LOT less splitting on the body of the fruit.. I was surprised how MUCH less of it I had. |
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I did too, (dropped the ball) for the most part. Harvested what I had on the vines this week cuz thought we were getting frost. If I'd been able to manage it, I would have been canning tomatoes all summer on just a few vines. It's impressive how much food you can get in a small garden. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei
Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe
It might look pretty but I'm ready for winter to be over. I've produced almost no solar power in December because of snow and gray skies.
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| I feel your pain on the solar generation point. I've realized it just isn't practical for my family to go off-grid for electric. Sure I could get more propane and a generator, but that isn't better for my family. This past 9 days it has been horrible production. We don't have snow, just grey days. |
Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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Originally Posted By kallnojoy: If the panels were swept, how much would the high albedo of the snow (and cold temps) help offset the gray sky? Here is my power the last 7 days. Snow started last night after dark. Previous 2 days were just gray skies. Even if the reflection from snow could bump up gray sky power 50% the result is still almost nothing as they gray sky days produced less than 1 kWh. I might run out and clean off a panel though to see what it can produce. The sun did just come out. Hopefully that will help clear the panels.   |
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I cleaned off the panels except for the top row of one array that I couldn't reach. The sun came out for a minute but then the clouds came back. Production is still low with the snow due to the clouds.  Production on a mostly sunny day at the same time of day. 
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Originally Posted By kallnojoy: how much would the high albedo of the snow (and cold temps) help offset the gray sky? |
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