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Posted: 9/30/2008 6:41:06 PM EDT
Okay so I've been stopping at our little main street jewelry store about once a month and buying what I call 'token' one ounce silver coins - sometimes they commemorate something (I picked up a Ross Perot for President one) sometimes they are just a NWT or one of the other private minters bullion.  It's convenient and the nice older man that runs the store is pretty cool and has a huge box of them so I get to pick what I want.  Anyway - I told you all that to ask you this - a friend insists the only way to go is pre-65 US Mint 90% silver coins.  My question is - says who?  And no I don't care to hear from the silver and gold haters out there.  So what say the collective wisdom of ARFCOM SF?
Link Posted: 9/30/2008 6:43:27 PM EDT
Silver rounds are Ok but if the market bottoms out US coins will always be worth the face value.
Link Posted: 9/30/2008 6:44:56 PM EDT
Silver is silver. I prefer silver eagles but that's just my preference I don't think it would matter much.
Link Posted: 9/30/2008 6:55:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2008 6:56:29 PM EDT by aks74man]
This is a good link to help you

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/silver_coin_calculator.html

melt value of coinswww.coinflation.com/coins/silver_coin_calculator.html
Link Posted: 9/30/2008 7:56:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2008 7:58:06 PM EDT by foxherb53]
The good thing about 90% silver coins is that you have smaller than 1oz denominations. Their good to have around to make change or break a 1oz bullion slug. I prefer bullion to any commemorative or Eagle because those you pay a premium just because of the fact that they are commemorative coins. Better to buy the bullion at spot price plus the 1 or 2% added than the 50% mark up for a collectors coin. A nice bag of mixed coinage (90% silver) would be good to have for the change making unless you think the everything is going to cost a oz. of silver when ever you need to use your silver for the SHTF situation.


ETA: I buy all mine at the local coin shop , they always have the best deal on the days spot price.
Link Posted: 9/30/2008 8:08:43 PM EDT
yeah - they guy I buy commemorative coins from only charges one dollar over spot - seems like a decent deal to me.
Link Posted: 10/1/2008 12:12:11 PM EDT
Variety is the spice of life.    You cant go wrong either way.  90%, rounds, bars, govt issued coins... mix it up, it makes collecting fun.
Link Posted: 10/1/2008 4:06:08 PM EDT
I had a mix of silver from quarters to 1/2 dollars to morgan dollars. I got rid of them all to stick with Silver Eagles. If silver bottoms out the Silver eagle still have a value of 1 dollar.
Link Posted: 10/1/2008 5:09:14 PM EDT
If I buy rounds, it's because I particularly like them. At worst, American legal tender coins will have face value- though I would prefer something like American Eagles to dimes/quarters/etc... that most people won't be able to differentiate from current circulation coins . I do make an exception for bars from known/ reputable makes. Even though those don't have a face value, they are something that everyone should be able to understand what it means. Of course, I'm not too crazy on investing in precious metals for barter, because if the commodity markets tank (and the pieces are needed), a lot will be lost- even on pieces with a nominal face value. Metals have an artificial value, that we often mis-identify as guaranteed.
Link Posted: 10/1/2008 5:39:36 PM EDT
Half dollars, dimes & quarters from before sometime in the early 60's are 90% silver.  Unless they are circulated & mint condition & are for some reason collectible they are considered "junk sliver."  The have no numismatic, that is collectable value.  Thier only value is in their silver content.  Legally, and financially, they are considered bullion.  Normially bullion is 99.99% squares or rounds, but these are considered bullion.  As such, there isn't as much "privacy" with these, which means if you take in more than $500 worth of coin to a dlr to sell he has to repport it to the IRS. However, you can buy any amount anymously.  They handier for SHTF tender.  Their worth is more volitile as it is directly tied to the spot price of silver.

Silver dollars from the early 20's or before, generally called "peace" or "morgan" dollars are the bottom of the barrel in terms of numismatic coins.  These are coins that have at least 15% collectability value over the value of their silver content.  As such, they are not subject to the same financial/legal/tax rules governing bullion & junk.  Thier value is slightly more stabile.  

"silver" coins from the 60's & 70's are generally only 40% silver.  There were some that Kennedy & Carter relased, or there were some w/ kennedy on them...I forget the details, but be aware that silver dollars from the latter 20th centruy are only 40% silver so keep that in mind.  Of course, there are also those new gold & silver coins the mint is releasing that are basically bulllion rounds.  

I just bought a bunch of silver "peace" dollars for $15 a piece.  Junk silver is currently costs about 10 times its face value.  

Get both.  I like the silver dollars a little bit more b/c they are not quite so volatile, but are still of small enough in value to be useful as emergency tender, plus they are more "private"

But I will get more junk silver too.  I'll probably try & buy some gold coins before too long but those are very expensive.  

Factoid: the face vlalue & silver content between the different junk silver coins is proportional, which means that there is exactly 5 times as much silver in a half dollar thant there is in a dime.  But there is slightly less sliver in one old sliver dollar than there is ten junk dimes, or four quarters etc.  
Link Posted: 10/1/2008 7:29:59 PM EDT
Forget the eagles, no serious invester would mess with them- Too much over spot.  While you will get you money back when you sale, why waste that money in the mean time.

Between junk rounds and coins, I prefer coins as they are of smaller denomination, and less likely (and illegal) to counterfit.  But if you liked coins, go for the rounds.  Used to, the spread between buy and sell was lower for bags of 90% (maybe a few hundred, and part fo that was shipping)  Now I see AJPM is showing a $1400 ($2/oz) spread.

Everybody is paying more then spot for buys on rounds,  bullion coins and junk silver.  That shows a huge shift to metals by the small investor
Link Posted: 10/1/2008 11:40:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Country_Boy:
Forget the eagles, no serious invester would mess with them- Too much over spot.  While you will get you money back when you sale, why waste that money in the mean time.

Between junk rounds and coins, I prefer coins as they are of smaller denomination, and less likely (and illegal) to counterfit.  But if you liked coins, go for the rounds.  Used to, the spread between buy and sell was lower for bags of 90% (maybe a few hundred, and part fo that was shipping)  Now I see AJPM is showing a $1400 ($2/oz) spread.

Everybody is paying more then spot for buys on rounds,  bullion coins and junk silver.  That shows a huge shift to metals by the small investor


What do you mean by "rounds"  
Link Posted: 10/2/2008 7:09:06 AM EDT
Rounds are coins privately minted as opposed to being minted and issued by the US mint.  Its semantics.  
Link Posted: 10/2/2008 9:06:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Half dollars, dimes & quarters from before sometime in the early 60's are 90% silver.  Unless they are uncirculated & mint condition & are for some reason collectible they are considered "junk sliver."  The have no numismatic, that is collectable value.  Thier only value is in their silver content.  


They do have Numismatic value. (and I think you mint un-circulated )
But their silver value is greater than the numismatic value.
Several circulated coins have values that far exceed the silver value do to rarity.
I have several Walking liberty halves that are worth more than their silver value.
I collect coins and I am working on completeing the collection Mom and I started years ago.
Both for the fun of it and I like the coins. I am collecting the silver "grade" coins since I tend to be cheap thrifty.
I did get my Daughter a graded (MS-63?) Morgan Dollar that is 100 tears older than her
Along with other for fun and one that is 100 years older than our wedding anniversery.

"Junk silver" coins is the way I go because I like the coins.
In a SHTF after a while I would be very cautious or "Rounds" since people will start faking them. But Mom bought some and they are "cute"
Link Posted: 10/2/2008 10:28:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2008 10:45:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Argon3:

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Half dollars, dimes & quarters from before sometime in the early 60's are 90% silver.  Unless they are uncirculated & mint condition & are for some reason collectible they are considered "junk sliver."  The have no numismatic, that is collectable value.  Thier only value is in their silver content.  


They do have Numismatic value. (and I think you mint un-circulated )
But their silver value is greater than the numismatic value.
Several circulated coins have values that far exceed the silver value do to rarity.
I have several Walking liberty halves that are worth more than their silver value.
I collect coins and I am working on completeing the collection Mom and I started years ago.
Both for the fun of it and I like the coins. I am collecting the silver "grade" coins since I tend to be cheap thrifty.
I did get my Daughter a graded (MS-63?) Morgan Dollar that is 100 tears older than her
Along with other for fun and one that is 100 years older than our wedding anniversery.

"Junk silver" coins is the way I go because I like the coins.
In a SHTF after a while I would be very cautious or "Rounds" since people will start faking them. But Mom bought some and they are "cute"



Might wanna be careful with those Morgans because the Chinese are faking them already.  
Link Posted: 10/3/2008 8:28:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By angryhippy:

Originally Posted By Argon3:

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Half dollars, dimes & quarters from before sometime in the early 60's are 90% silver.  Unless they are uncirculated & mint condition & are for some reason collectible they are considered "junk sliver."  The have no numismatic, that is collectable value.  Thier only value is in their silver content.  


They do have Numismatic value. (and I think you mint un-circulated )
But their silver value is greater than the numismatic value.
Several circulated coins have values that far exceed the silver value do to rarity.
I have several Walking liberty halves that are worth more than their silver value.
I collect coins and I am working on completeing the collection Mom and I started years ago.
Both for the fun of it and I like the coins. I am collecting the silver "grade" coins since I tend to be cheap thrifty.
I did get my Daughter a graded (MS-63?) Morgan Dollar that is 100 tears older than her
Along with other for fun and one that is 100 years older than our wedding anniversery.

"Junk silver" coins is the way I go because I like the coins.
In a SHTF after a while I would be very cautious or "Rounds" since people will start faking them. But Mom bought some and they are "cute"



Might wanna be careful with those Morgans because the Chinese are faking them already.  


Thankfully the cost to effectively produce a fake round is so extreme that it isn't worth it to chi-coms to even try.  

The quality of the fake rounds coming out of the east is so laughable that even the untrained eye can pick them out of a lineup and can avoid them.
Link Posted: 10/3/2008 9:10:18 AM EDT
In silver, I buy new issue American Eagles.  I watch the spot market, and when I see a dip of 4-5%, I order some more.  BTW, this has been a good week to buy silver.  Keep an eye out early next week too, as the bail-out is freaking out a lot of commodity traders, and volatility means opportunity.
Link Posted: 10/3/2008 11:52:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shadowbody:

Originally Posted By angryhippy:

Originally Posted By Argon3:

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Half dollars, dimes & quarters from before sometime in the early 60's are 90% silver.  Unless they are uncirculated & mint condition & are for some reason collectible they are considered "junk sliver."  The have no numismatic, that is collectable value.  Thier only value is in their silver content.  


They do have Numismatic value. (and I think you mint un-circulated )
But their silver value is greater than the numismatic value.
Several circulated coins have values that far exceed the silver value do to rarity.
I have several Walking liberty halves that are worth more than their silver value.
I collect coins and I am working on completeing the collection Mom and I started years ago.
Both for the fun of it and I like the coins. I am collecting the silver "grade" coins since I tend to be cheap thrifty.
I did get my Daughter a graded (MS-63?) Morgan Dollar that is 100 tears older than her
Along with other for fun and one that is 100 years older than our wedding anniversery.

"Junk silver" coins is the way I go because I like the coins.
In a SHTF after a while I would be very cautious or "Rounds" since people will start faking them. But Mom bought some and they are "cute"



Might wanna be careful with those Morgans because the Chinese are faking them already.  


Thankfully the cost to effectively produce a fake round is so extreme that it isn't worth it to chi-coms to even try.  

The quality of the fake rounds coming out of the east is so laughable that even the untrained eye can pick them out of a lineup and can avoid them.


I guess you have seen different Chinese copies than I have. I got two along with a large purchase and believe me they are very well done and 18% silver content. These are not funky cast coins these are struck coins. Read this article and check out the pictures for the quality. I've been collecting coins for 40 yrs and they fooled me and the dealer I bought them from. A very honest guy who replaced the fakes immediately. The article says some have been found in faked slabs,I would say those are very good fakes!

Red
coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Chinese-Fake-Morgan-Dollars.htm
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 12:53:47 PM EDT
Counterfit Silver  

They even counterfeit junk & indian head pennies!

Are the 18% silver counterfeits a different weight than the real 90% silver ones?  
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 1:52:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Counterfit Silver  

They even counterfeit junk & indian head pennies!

Are the 18% silver counterfeits a different weight than the real 90% silver ones?  


I don't remember about the weight. I will check and see if I can find the info on the fakes that I had. Whatever aging process they used was also very good. When put beside the real silver dollars nothing stuck out. When these pass among average collectors I have no doubt even very smart members of the public will be fooled. The faking of the collector pennies tells you even at that level their profit margain is good.

 I wonder how much fake gold these guys have made. The lesson for me was to only buy from very honest reliable sources who will make good on the transaction if something is wrong. That "good deal" you find may only be in favor of the seller. In a SHTF situation you can just imagine the tons of this stuff that will come on the market to the unwary buyers. I can't believe that anyone can go into these Chinese stores and buy this stuff off the shelf in buckets!

Red
Link Posted: 10/12/2008 11:28:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RedWoods:

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Counterfit Silver  

They even counterfeit junk & indian head pennies!

Are the 18% silver counterfeits a different weight than the real 90% silver ones?  


I don't remember about the weight. I will check and see if I can find the info on the fakes that I had. Whatever aging process they used was also very good. When put beside the real silver dollars nothing stuck out. When these pass among average collectors I have no doubt even very smart members of the public will be fooled. The faking of the collector pennies tells you even at that level their profit margain is good.

 I wonder how much fake gold these guys have made. The lesson for me was to only buy from very honest reliable sources who will make good on the transaction if something is wrong. That "good deal" you find may only be in favor of the seller. In a SHTF situation you can just imagine the tons of this stuff that will come on the market to the unwary buyers. I can't believe that anyone can go into these Chinese stores and buy this stuff off the shelf in buckets!

Red


It woudl be nice to know if you could tell the fakes by weight, though w/ a lot of care it would be possible to make a silver plated coin the same weight as a 90% coin
Link Posted: 10/12/2008 1:46:36 PM EDT
If the silver content is wrong, there has to be a weight difference if the dimensions are held correctly.
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 5:02:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Powerkicker:
If the silver content is wrong, there has to be a weight difference if the dimensions are held correctly.


Not necessarily.  Remember, these fakes are plated, solid not alloy's.  So they could make the core out of a profane alloy that has the right mass, when added to the plating to make proper weight.  

But I do understand the whole thing about the relation ship between the mass & volume of a specific element, ya know that whole story about how that ancient greek guy figured out whether or not that gold crown was solid pure gold or not by using water displacement.  
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 5:12:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2008 6:44:01 PM EDT
Silver Maple Leaves.

$5 CDN face value, rather than $1 USD.  Which means a higher 'floor' in case the price of silver falls.

Link Posted: 10/13/2008 7:40:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedWoods:

I guess you have seen different Chinese copies than I have. I got two along with a large purchase and believe me they are very well done and 18% silver content. These are not funky cast coins these are struck coins. Read this article and check out the pictures for the quality. I've been collecting coins for 40 yrs and they fooled me and the dealer I bought them from. A very honest guy who replaced the fakes immediately. The article says some have been found in faked slabs,I would say those are very good fakes!

Red
coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Chinese-Fake-Morgan-Dollars.htm


I'd love to get my hands on one of those fakes so I could take the Pepsi challenge. I'm guessing even if they had a good quality knock-off, it still couldn't pass the tink-test. (the sound silver makes when you tap it against another silver coin)
Link Posted: 10/19/2008 10:24:14 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Half dollars, dimes & quarters from before sometime in the early 60's are 90% silver.  Unless they are circulated & mint condition & are for some reason collectible they are considered "junk sliver."  The have no numismatic, that is collectable value.  Thier only value is in their silver content.  Legally, and financially, they are considered bullion.  Normially bullion is 99.99% squares or rounds, but these are considered bullion.  As such, there isn't as much "privacy" with these, which means if you take in more than $500 worth of coin to a dlr to sell he has to repport it to the IRS. However, you can buy any amount anymously.  They handier for SHTF tender.  Their worth is more volitile as it is directly tied to the spot price of silver.

They are also legal tender coins.

height=8
Silver dollars from the early 20's or before, generally called "peace" or "morgan" dollars are the bottom of the barrel in terms of numismatic coins.  These are coins that have at least 15% collectability value over the value of their silver content.  As such, they are not subject to the same financial/legal/tax rules governing bullion & junk.  Thier value is slightly more stabile.
 Not really. The numismatic premium fluctuates wildly. They are also legal tender.

I would point out that the idea of collectible value being meaningful comes not from silver coinage but from gold coins. When gold was nationalized by FDR, people had to turn in their gold except for jewelry and collectible coins. The distinction is meaningless today since private gold ownership is legal.

height=8
"silver" coins from the 60's & 70's are generally only 40% silver.  There were some that Kennedy & Carter relased, or there were some w/ Kennedy on them...I forget the details, but be aware that silver dollars from the latter 20th century are only 40% silver so keep that in mind.  Of course, there are also those new gold & silver coins the mint is releasing that are basically bulllion rounds.  
Kennedy halves dated from 65-69 are 40%. all other us coins dated 65-69 are clad and have no silver at all.

height=8
Factoid: the face vlalue & silver content between the different junk silver coins is proportional, which means that there is exactly 5 times as much silver in a half dollar thant there is in a dime.  But there is slightly less sliver in one old sliver dollar than there is ten junk dimes, or four quarters etc.  
There is actually slightly more silver in a silver dollar than in a dollars worth of silver change. Silver dollars have 0.773 troy ounces of silver and a dollars worth of silver change has only 0.71 troy ounces of silver.
Link Posted: 10/19/2008 10:26:35 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By Steve_in_Washington:
Silver Maple Leaves.

$5 CDN face value, rather than $1 USD.  Which means a higher 'floor' in case the price of silver falls.


Somewhat of a myth that Howard Ruff and others spread back when he was hawking them. The truth is that they are not convertible to C$ except in limited amounts. I don't recall the exact limit but I seem to recall it is like C$20.
Link Posted: 10/19/2008 1:07:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shadowbody:

I'd love to get my hands on one of those fakes so I could take the Pepsi challenge. I'm guessing even if they had a good quality knock-off, it still couldn't pass the tink-test. (the sound silver makes when you tap it against another silver coin)


I was looking at few of the counterfeit 1oz "silver" chinese pandas in a coin store last week.  The dealer discovered them in a large lot that he had bought and kept them behind the counter for demonstration purposes.  These were the 'copper core with thin silver plating on the top' variety of counterfeits, easily detected because they weigh less than the real thing.  The dealer didn't catch them when he bought them as they were just a few coins in a group of 100+, but now he is weighing coins that are brought into the store before he buys them.

It might not be a bad idea to buy and carry one of those small digital scales if one is going to buy a large amount of coins.  The scales are now pocket sized, and might just pay for itself if it keeps you from getting stuck with a bunch of counterfeit coins.    As for now I have not seen any reports that counterfeit blanks are being blended with base metal to match the correct weight of the authentic silver and gold coins.  
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