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Posted: 8/19/2010 10:44:22 AM EDT
I've been doing some thinking after reading a few of the SHTF books floating around out there and talking with some of the law-enforcement officials around my home.
I came across this link. http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html and am now really starting to understand the importance of Op-Sec as pertaining to preps.

I realize that short term...say a month or so...that food preps will keep you out of harms way and keep your family fed. No need to run to the grocery store and take a risk of getting shot in the back of the head on your way to the parked car and having your food stolen. I would think grocery stores would only be stocked for a couple of hours in a true SHTF scenario anyway.

But for longer events, where communities are banding together under the leadership of local community leaders or law enforcement, I can see food confiscated and divided up for the "greater good" of the community. I would think that you would need to join a large group or risk being overtaken and losing everything to the lawless and desperate.
Not to mention the punishment by the members of a local group when it is discovered you've been holding out while their families starve.

Holding out for long periods of time with just you and your family and guarding your home and stash against everyone else just isn't realistic in my opinion. So is it senseless to stockpile food and supplies for longer than a couple of months worth of time? I could see these supplies as strong leverage in ensuring your place in a community, but at some point there is a value of diminishing returns.

Agree or disagree?
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 10:47:31 AM EDT
I would rather have the food and take the risk of defending my food, rather than not having any food and taking the risk of taking someone else's
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 10:52:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2010 10:55:18 AM EDT by advracer]
I'll stock up and let them go through the effort to come take it ........there are a number of scenarios that could play out this way.....

Why stock up if a fire could come along and destroy it and there is no fire service to stop it.

Why stock up if looters will simply break-in, overpower you and steal it....

Why stock up if you suddenly have to bug out and leave 90% of it to rot or be taken........
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 10:56:08 AM EDT
I disagree. If Ive got a years worth of food stored/saved for my family, Im not giving it up for the greater good of my community. Unless its family or good friends, they can kiss my ass.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 10:56:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2010 11:01:44 AM EDT by Fra_Tra]
No !

I hope I don't ever need it, but if I do it's there and I don't have to worry about my family.

I Hope to make it to my remote BOL were I will have a much greater chance of keeping my stores and a less of a chance of having to defend it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:03:03 AM EDT
I look at it like this:

We have all had equal time to prepare. Some did, some didn't.

Instead of taking $5,000 vacations every year, my family and I chose to be prepared for bad times.

If the have nots who wasted thier money on fun and games try to take what I saved, by force, this is a threat to my life since it is life sustaining food they are stealing.

I will protect my life with appropriate force.

YMMV
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:03:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By smithc6:
I disagree. If Ive got a years worth of food stored/saved for my family, Im not giving it up for the greater good of my community. Unless its family or good friends, they can kiss my ass.


Bingo!
What food are they talking about?
Maintain a very low profile
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:05:23 AM EDT
What if your worry of confiscation never occurs? When your family begins to starve will you be happy that you had nothing to be confiscated? Why keep two months of food? Why keep any at all? If you're worried about confiscation, then why is two monrhs your "magic" number? Your preps could be taken after three days.

Keep as much food as you can and if need be defend it with your life. You're being irresponsible if you're not doing everything in your ability to ensure your family's wellbeing if shtf. Prepping isn't expensive, you need to stock as much as you can.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:16:16 AM EDT
I am using 2 months as an example. I realize every place is different, I just happen to live in a close-knit rural area where everyone is in everybody else's business.
I keep food for the same reasons we all do...to keep my family from starvation if the food network were to be disrupted. Defending it with your life? You damn well might be if 30 or more people show up to take it. That is why OPSEC is of such vital importance.
Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
What if your worry of confiscation never occurs? When your family begins to starve will you be happy that you had nothing to be confiscated? Why keep two months of food? Why keep any at all? If you're worried about confiscation, then why is two monrhs your "magic" number? Your preps could be taken after three days.

Keep as much food as you can and if need be defend it with your life. You're being irresponsible if you're not doing everything in your ability to ensure your family's wellbeing if shtf. Prepping isn't expensive, you need to stock as much as you can.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:24:34 AM EDT
Someone stealing my food is a threat to my life, regardless of who the perp is.

All acts of theft that would threaten my life get the same response.

And will continue to receive that response until the threat is over, I am dead, or out of objects to respond with...

Opsec is still the name of the game though.

TXL
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:33:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lootie23:
I am using 2 months as an example. I realize every place is different, I just happen to live in a close-knit rural area where everyone is in everybody else's business.
I keep food for the same reasons we all do...to keep my family from starvation if the food network were to be disrupted. Defending it with your life? You damn well might be if 30 or more people show up to take it. That is why OPSEC is of such vital importance.
Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
What if your worry of confiscation never occurs? When your family begins to starve will you be happy that you had nothing to be confiscated? Why keep two months of food? Why keep any at all? If you're worried about confiscation, then why is two monrhs your "magic" number? Your preps could be taken after three days.

Keep as much food as you can and if need be defend it with your life. You're being irresponsible if you're not doing everything in your ability to ensure your family's wellbeing if shtf. Prepping isn't expensive, you need to stock as much as you can.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile




Well I guess dont tell your community or let them find out youre storing food...

pretty simple
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 11:53:06 AM EDT
Simple enough...




Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:02:02 PM EDT
Lootie, my suggestion to ya is just don't bother with preps. If you are right, you can laugh at the rest of us. If you are wrong, then no one will give a schit anyway.
Either way, you 'win'.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:04:00 PM EDT
Disagree... Why set your self up for failure or make it any harder than necessary?

Do what you can.
The best you can.
As long as you can.

Improvise adapt and overcome.

If you not cheating your not trying.

And my favorite;

Like the man said "I don't have to run faster than the bear. I just have to run faster than you."

Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:08:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2010 12:09:51 PM EDT by Fra_Tra]
We only have to survive about 3 months after an all out SHTF. After that all the non prepers will be dead. So can we make a pact that when we all emerge 3 months after to not shoot each other?
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:22:09 PM EDT
Having large sums of food during SHTF is a great bartering tool.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:23:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2010 12:23:33 PM EDT by Lootie23]
I second the motion...motion carried.
Originally Posted By Fra_Tra:
We only have to survive about 3 months after an all out SHTF. After that all the non prepers will be dead. So can we make a pact that when we all emerge 3 months after to not shoot each other?


Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:25:44 PM EDT
Oh, I bother. I'm just floating the argument that's all. I'm better prepared right now than 99% of the sheep. Now, if I can just find those damn Heinekens.
Originally Posted By Mannlicher:
Lootie, my suggestion to ya is just don't bother with preps. If you are right, you can laugh at the rest of us. If you are wrong, then no one will give a schit anyway.
Either way, you 'win'.


Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:32:59 PM EDT
People laughed at me after the Y2K non-event.
Then I fell out of a scaffolding in May of 01' and was on disability for a year.
People were calling me up offering me UTT work or asking if I needed any help.
I said no I'm eating all my Y2K food, everybody said, "Oh, that's so smart."

You really can't know what shape the crisis will take.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:35:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
Having large sums of food during SHTF is a great bartering tool.


Food is typically at the top of the list when it comes to survival. I cant think of anything (except maybe medical supplies) I would want to trade food for unless I knew I couldnt eat it before it went bad. Creature comforts to me are secondary to survival...
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:45:50 PM EDT
Not a waste of time but OPSEC better be more watertight than a frogs behind. Rambo fantasies are great until the .gov shows up on your doorstep.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 12:51:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
People laughed at me after the Y2K non-event.
Then I fell out of a scaffolding in May of 01' and was on disability for a year.
People were calling me up offering me UTT work or asking if I needed any help.
I said no I'm eating all my Y2K food, everybody said, "Oh, that's so smart."

You really can't know what shape the crisis will take.


Another excellent point.

SHTF isn't black and white.

Preps can be useful for all of the in between situations like jobs loss or similar.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 1:14:31 PM EDT
Why stockpile food? Because you never know how long you might be hungry!

Other folks have talked about loss of income, there's also the ability to take advantage of bulk pricing and sales on items. Look at it this way, if everyone had a year's supply of food on hand then major SHTF wouldn't be a problem as far as food is concerned. The more people who have supplies the longer everyone can last.

Me, I don't store supplies in case of major EOTWAWKI, but because I've experienced minor SHTFs in my life where I was glad that I could not spend as much money on supplies for a few months. No money for gas? No problem, I run off stores for a while. No money to eat out? No problem, I have plenty of interesting food stored I can easily prepare.

TEOTWAWKI, a year supply of food can be stretched to two if necessary, long enough to get gardens and crops and animals growing.

I look at it as pretty stupid to not have several months worth of food on hand, I am not sure why someone would want something so critical to be in short supply in their homes.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 1:27:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2010 1:27:26 PM EDT by TxLewis]
IMO, it won't be another decade before PSA's about your neighbor hoarding food.

REMEMBER, ALL GOVERNMENTS NEED A BOGEYMAN. WHEN PEOPLE ARE STARVING, IT WILL BE FOOD HOARDERS.

Corporations are keeping cash on hand for many reasons. Uncertainty in the future being the biggest. What's the .gov doing right now? Making them the bad guy, when it's the .gov causing problems.

Look at the middle east. And really, all poor countries that have idiots running them. They point to America of Israel, (If in the middle east) as the SOURCE of all the peoples problems.

The .gov will do that as well. When there are food shortages, (There will be, when the .gov starts getting involved in planning and production, for the people, you know) they will blame those who are prepared.

Good thing I stared being a Morman.

TXL
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 1:28:51 PM EDT
i hope not
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 1:29:10 PM EDT
I would rather be forced to make the decision to deny the or allow the group/mob/.gov access to my food than be the ones in the group.

Grove
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 1:38:59 PM EDT
Food and Supplies can only be confiscated if it can be found. Same for Firearms.

Not advocating burying it, or anything, but whether it be bad guys or FEMA, just how long ,
and how much time, and resources would they tie up, searching a property?

Check the pantry? have a look around? Question the inhabitants?
Then they are off to the next place to ransack/pillage/confiscate.

If its BG's entering your private property , forcibly, well that's easy to justify force against.
Anyone "official" would just get the old story, "sorry, just a few cans of beans"

Will they look in your attic under the insulation? doubtful.
Will they look in the rafters in your garage? doubtful.
Inside the door panels of your car? doubtful
Will they look in your shed behind those partial pieces of plywood? doubtful.
You get the picture.

Only scavengers will end up looking that hard, for scraps and leftovers, and possibly discover a "cache".
But that requires you abandoning the place.

I have never, and still don't see a .gov agency WHOLESALE/SYSTEMATICALLY confiscating firearms or food from folks in a disaster scenario.
They will have their hands full. You may see sporadic unlawful confiscation, a la , NOLA,
which is why strategic placement and concealment could be important.

YMMV



Link Posted: 8/19/2010 1:50:53 PM EDT
Interesting question by the OP. One more reason I like my neighborhood: many of my neighbors have even better preps than I do.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:01:28 PM EDT
I have nothing to worry about because I have no preps, honest injun.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:14:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BIG_PAPA:
I look at it like this:

We have all had equal time to prepare. Some did, some didn't.

Instead of taking $5,000 vacations every year, my family and I chose to be prepared for bad times.

If the have nots who wasted thier money on fun and games try to take what I saved, by force, this is a threat to my life since it is life sustaining food they are stealing.

I will protect my life with appropriate force.

YMMV


This has always been my position.

Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:18:01 PM EDT
i would rather have and not need it than need it and not have it

jm2c
6
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:42:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
I have nothing to worry about because I have no preps, honest injun.


this. all my beeferoni and spaghetti-o's were lost in the same tragic boating accident that i lost my firearms in. (to quote another arfcommer... )
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:49:01 PM EDT
I have nothing to hide Officer, see my kids are hungry too. Please give me some food.....
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:49:38 PM EDT
I guess if they try and take it for the greater good they will end up giving their life for the greater good.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 2:56:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By makintrax73:
Not a waste of time but OPSEC better be more watertight than a frogs behind. Rambo fantasies are great until the .gov shows up on your doorstep.


Best answer!

Stack it deep and keep your mouth shut. Tell NO ONE. If you got relatives that know, you've got a security risk. How far can you trust them?

I like what you said about the .gov at your door. Let's face it, folks, the set of brass Internet testicles we all wear are a lot bigger and bolder than the ones we wear in Meatspace. I'll defend my family and goods from people intent on robbing me, or doing us harm, but when federal, state, or local government types darken my doorway with official business, that's another story altogether. I'm a patriot - not an anarchist. So my plan is to keep my prepping on the down-low, and hope it does not become obvious. What they do not know, I am not required to divulge.

Stay GREY and out... of... the... way!
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 3:14:19 PM EDT
Ths reminds me to buy a C-Mag for some reason.....
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 3:17:09 PM EDT
My vote is no. BUT... Just depends on what type of SHTF event you think is coming... Worst case realistic scenario in my mind ... I want to have a yr supply covered incase bird flu hits and everyone's quarantined in their homes for a yr. A yr is a good storage point for lots of scenarios and for my current living environment is as much as I can stockpile... more than that I'll be relyling on community etc...
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 3:29:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lootie23:

at some point there is a value of diminishing returns.

I agree. Now here is the brazillion dollar question - Where is that point? It's that way, past the cupboard and the pantry. Nobody knows where that point will be.

Hell, let's be honest. As it turns out, for somebody who started prepping in the 1960's lived a normal uneventful life and died today, having one freaking can of baked beans put back was a waste. The future is a funny thing, though. You just don't know.

As a rule of thumb, though, you would want to have enough food stashed to get you through the next fall. Assuming a total EOTWAWKI, you would need to get by until you could start producing your own food in sufficient quantities. In a warm climate, that could be as short as a couple months if you could plant right away. In a cold climate, that could be more than 12 months if you were caught mid-summer, too late to start crops.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 3:44:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lootie23:
I've been doing some thinking after reading a few of the SHTF books floating around out there and talking with some of the law-enforcement officials around my home.
I came across this link. http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html and am now really starting to understand the importance of Op-Sec as pertaining to preps.

I realize that short term...say a month or so...that food preps will keep you out of harms way and keep your family fed. No need to run to the grocery store and take a risk of getting shot in the back of the head on your way to the parked car and having your food stolen. I would think grocery stores would only be stocked for a couple of hours in a true SHTF scenario anyway.

But for longer events, where communities are banding together under the leadership of local community leaders or law enforcement, I can see food confiscated and divided up for the "greater good" of the community. I would think that you would need to join a large group or risk being overtaken and losing everything to the lawless and desperate.
Not to mention the punishment by the members of a local group when it is discovered you've been holding out while their families starve.

Holding out for long periods of time with just you and your family and guarding your home and stash against everyone else just isn't realistic in my opinion. So is it senseless to stockpile food and supplies for longer than a couple of months worth of time? I could see these supplies as strong leverage in ensuring your place in a community, but at some point there is a value of diminishing returns.

Agree or disagree?


I disagree, although I see the point being made. Remember that whole analogy of the grasshoppers and the ants? I'd rather be the ant and defend whats mine than risk seeing my family and children starve.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 3:46:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lootie23:
I am using 2 months as an example. I realize every place is different, I just happen to live in a close-knit rural area where everyone is in everybody else's business.
I keep food for the same reasons we all do...to keep my family from starvation if the food network were to be disrupted. Defending it with your life? You damn well might be if 30 or more people show up to take it. That is why OPSEC is of such vital importance.
Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
What if your worry of confiscation never occurs? When your family begins to starve will you be happy that you had nothing to be confiscated? Why keep two months of food? Why keep any at all? If you're worried about confiscation, then why is two monrhs your "magic" number? Your preps could be taken after three days.

Keep as much food as you can and if need be defend it with your life. You're being irresponsible if you're not doing everything in your ability to ensure your family's wellbeing if shtf. Prepping isn't expensive, you need to stock as much as you can.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile




yup

Link Posted: 8/19/2010 3:58:44 PM EDT
Outside of the hoarding conversation, those executive orders are out of control. The process has been aborted and needs to be reigned in.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:03:56 PM EDT
If you plan on keeping preps for a couple of months you will be no less a target than someone who preps for years.

People who would attack or attempt to confiscate will be after your preps long before "months" go by. In a real SHTF

situation, it will only take days for most people to use up what they have on hand, and at that point they will start looking elsewhere.

Damned if you do, damned if you dont. In a EOTWAWKI situation, we are all screwed, some will just get screwed first.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:09:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Szurgot:
If you plan on keeping preps for a couple of months you will be no less a target than someone who preps for years.

People who would attack or attempt to confiscate will be after your preps long before "months" go by. In a real SHTF

situation, it will only take days for most people to use up what they have on hand, and at that point they will start looking elsewhere.

Damned if you do, damned if you dont. In a EOTWAWKI situation, we are all screwed, some will just get screwed first.



I tell other like minded people this all the time:

If it happens and everybody else is hungry looking, dirty and smelly, you had better be hungry looking, dirty and smelly also, even if you're really not hungry or dirty or smelly. If you are well fed, clean and fresh smelling, you are a target.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:10:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pyro6988:
Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
People laughed at me after the Y2K non-event.
Then I fell out of a scaffolding in May of 01' and was on disability for a year.
People were calling me up offering me UTT work or asking if I needed any help.
I said no I'm eating all my Y2K food, everybody said, "Oh, that's so smart."

You really can't know what shape the crisis will take.


Another excellent point.

SHTF isn't black and white.

Preps can be useful for all of the in between situations like jobs loss or similar.
Yep, and another reason to "store what you eat and eat what you store"...as I've learned from YOU guys.

Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:34:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By makintrax73:
Not a waste of time but OPSEC better be more watertight than a frogs behind. Rambo fantasies are great until the .gov shows up on your doorstep.


I would really like to have better opsec, but we have all these mooing things standing around pooping and eating all damn day. They are a food source and I expect to see "local leaders" coming to discuss surrender of these valuable poop machines for their less fortunate constituents. Not sure how we will handle this yet, but I bet they don't even think about looking in the basement under those circumstances.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:40:37 PM EDT
interesting
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:45:57 PM EDT
"I can see food confiscated and divided up for the "greater good" of the community"

Only in your communist neighborhoods.... me,, I would fight to keep my stuff!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:50:38 PM EDT
I don't stock food my self because in me area there are so many cattle, deer and other wild game I don't see much point in it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 4:53:51 PM EDT
what is this food prep you speak of?.....maybe I'll do that in a few years....once the economy picks up.
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 5:00:06 PM EDT
I got some Saltines and moldy cheese the "neighborhood" can have....
Link Posted: 8/19/2010 5:09:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Interesting question by the OP. One more reason I like my neighborhood: many of my neighbors have even better preps than I do.

I suppose your neighbors are LDS as well? If so, I envy you. I've got one set of neighbors who thinks like me, the other set I'll probably have to bury.
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