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Posted: 4/6/2008 8:16:25 AM EST
What's everyone's opinion on including kevlar helmets in SHTF gear? For those with experience, how important is a helmet to you?
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 8:28:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 8:36:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2008 8:36:24 AM EST by LtDirector]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i have one that was given to me along with several others.

JMHO but in shtf i will be leaving mine behind.

basic testing i did at the range showed little if any real "protection" vs pistol rounds at social distance and zero benifit against a rifle inside about 300 yards or so for 223.

i use the weight saving to carry more gear and just keep my head down. they might be great against fragmentation such as airbursts and grenades but lets face it. if i am worried about that i have MUCH bigger problems than my simple planning is going to solve.


This is along my line of thinking. But I've learned on this site, that someone else nearly always has thought of something I didn't. So I figured I should ask. Thanks for the input!
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 8:48:43 AM EST
Depends.

There are some very light weight (relative to others) helmets available and enough after market suspension systems to make them very comfortable. Helmet mount night vision is really nice to have and IMHO superior to those weirdo head mounted devices that don't require a helmet.

Keep in mind that bullets are not the only threat. You've got things that could happen in SHTF like flying glass or other materials that could cause harm. Say you're in a bug-out and driving through some bad stuff a helmet might not be bad idea. Protect that loved ones head if you don't want it for yourself.

They are an ultimate SHTF..oh my God the Chinese are invading or you find yourself in the middle of LA Riot style violence piece of SHTF kit. Certainly other things that would take priority, but if you've already nicely rounded out your supplies not bad thing to pick-up for you and yours.

Link Posted: 4/6/2008 8:59:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2008 9:26:51 AM EST by JAD]
In all honesty, I never really thought about buying a K-POT for SHTF use. However, I recieved a NATO K-POT as a Christmas swap item, and I figure that as interesting as a curio it is, it could also have some potential SHTF use. I spent $3 on a DPM cover for it (stimulating the economy, I guess)


Link Posted: 4/6/2008 12:02:49 PM EST
All depends on whether or not you expect to receive indirect fire?

Personally, I wouldn't bother. It's extra weight for no reason. So is body armor, really.

Honestly, what situation do you expect to get in during SHTF, where a helmet would be essential - meaning worth the effort of humping that heavy, uncomfortable shit around? Once you've identified that situation, change your plans to avoid it altogether.

You are not going to survive protracted contact, especially not when there are hazards from fragmentation, which is the only reason for a helmet. Therefore do everything humanly possible to avoid contact, and have a damned good plan for breaking contact if you do.

Link Posted: 4/6/2008 1:27:57 PM EST
I'm not going to bother with a military quality helmet for combat unless the zombies have HE devices (frags, RPGs, arty, etc.). Other than explosive weapons, there is not much use for the loss of comfort and added weight. If you are worried about bumping your head on crap, use a lightweight biking helmet.

Another thing to consider, is that with the average person, it is supposedly easier (mentally that is) to shoot someone who is wearing a helmet. It helps the shooter depersonalize them.

I think to some extent that is true. What sort of hostile would be easier to pull the trigger on at close ranges, say some guy decked out in a uniform, helmet, ballistic sun glasses or goggles, balaclava, and other gear all over OR a guy in jeans and a t-shirt where you can see the color of his eyes and the sweat on his brow? The less they look like an average human, the easier it is on your conscience to depersonalize them and thus kill them.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 2:36:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shrike37:
Another thing to consider, is that with the average person, it is supposedly easier (mentally that is) to shoot someone who is wearing a helmet. It helps the shooter depersonalize them.

That's interesting, Shrike. Where did you hear that?
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 2:52:38 PM EST
I'm not sure I agree with the conventional wisdom here about helmets being useless except for fragmentation. No, I would not tote one while bugging out- the weight is not worth what circumstances it would be of benefit in. But I would wear one while pulling security at a fixed site, or while driving.

Overseas, I've seen helmets save a lot of guys from a nasty injury while driving. And while folks are correct that they will not stop rounds at close range or at a perpendicular angle, they will deflect rounds or ricochets or spall that is "glancing". And a glancing headwound sounds like a bad thing to me. And of course, the standard "bump" protection from things falling around you, or you falling onto/into things, probable goes without saying.

I would not pay a lot for a k-pot or even an ACH. But I have both, and got them cheaply, and am glad to have them in the stash.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 2:55:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dominus:
All depends on whether or not you expect to receive indirect fire?

Personally, I wouldn't bother. It's extra weight for no reason. So is body armor, really.
Honestly, what situation do you expect to get in during SHTF, where a helmet would be essential - meaning worth the effort of humping that heavy, uncomfortable shit around? Once you've identified that situation, change your plans to avoid it altogether.

You are not going to survive protracted contact, especially not when there are hazards from fragmentation, which is the only reason for a helmet. Therefore do everything humanly possible to avoid contact, and have a damned good plan for breaking contact if you do.




Sorry Bro, but that is...



can't let that one slide.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 2:55:57 PM EST
Hadn't thought of that but it makes sense. So on that train of thought, one of the big wheeled baby jogers would be a great place too keep guns ina bug out situation.

Helmet? What for. I didn't wear mine most of the time in Iraq, sure anit gonna wear it here.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 3:05:23 PM EST
beerslayer, you did those tests and didn't post the range report on arfcom? and if you did, link please.

was it an issue PASGT or chicom? sure?

if helmets are so worthless, you guys can tell uncle sam to save a lot of money...
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 3:35:39 PM EST


The setup: i am passing (cement practice) mines out the small back door on an M113. It's night time. The driver is creeping along at about 3 mph. There are troops behind us in a rotating line taking and placing the mines. The gunner yells something too me and I turn and face inward and yell back at him "What?". At that moment the track his something and stops dead. I am now airborne and rapidly approaching the center / TC / Gunner / seat post. I duck my head at the last moment and hit the post with my helmet. My otherwise useless flack vest shoulder pad is the next thing to hit after my head glances off the post.

It hurt like a MF'er. I am sure I would have suffred a cuncussion, a broken collar bone, or both had I not been in all that crap.

So I am lying there in a heap at the TC/Gunners feet and he repeats him self: "I said hold on".

Bastard.



With that said I don't have a helmet for my SHTF stash. I do have body armor though.

Link Posted: 4/6/2008 3:42:37 PM EST
I bought my own light weight kevlar helmet before being deployed to Iraq and believe that it is rated for 9mm at approx 1400 fps, just like the interceptor vest. I agree that I would probably not wear it for BO, unless I had a full vest with rifle plates and was in a vehicle or expecting frag.

-Nathan
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 4:54:32 PM EST

So is body armor, really.


I'm having a hard time picturing the sorts of threats you are preparing for. Do you expect to get blown or shot up while bugging out? Do you expect to have to defend your home or BOL singlehandedly from a group or heavily armed attackers? Is there some assumption that you are making that I am not?

Are you also going to armour your family? They are going to be experiencing the same threats you are, and they need to be protected as much or more than yourself.

I wear body armour w/ plates as a part of my job because we operate in a very high threat environment (Afghanistan), and I'm pretty much guaranteed to get blown the fuck up at least once when deployed. I can't really see any realistic situation where a survivalist would need the stuff. If your plans lead you to a situation where you need it, then you have a bad plan. If it is for some unforseen circumstance, then you'll need to wear it 24/7 for something that unlikely to ever occur. It's probably better bang for the buck to spend the money on improving your BOL.

I really see SHTF as a sustainment problem, not a combat situation. "How am I going to eat/drink/sleep?" as opposed to "How am I going to kill hordes of looters?", and that's what is guiding my logic here.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 5:59:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dominus:
I really see SHTF as a sustainment problem, not a combat situation. "How am I going to eat/drink/sleep?" as opposed to "How am I going to kill hordes of looters?", and that's what is guiding my logic here.

Good point. “Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics” applied to the end of the world.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 6:41:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Caliburn:

Originally Posted By Shrike37:
Another thing to consider, is that with the average person, it is supposedly easier (mentally that is) to shoot someone who is wearing a helmet. It helps the shooter depersonalize them.

That's interesting, Shrike. Where did you hear that?


On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

It is a very interesting read for anyone who foresees the possibility of having to kill another human being in self defense or war. It is a real eye opener. Killing another human, for a normal person, is a very difficult thing to do when you can see the person up close and personal. Killing another person also has a very high psychological cost that you must be ready and willing to accept. Proper conditioning and other factors that Mr. Grossman mentions in the book can help to mitigate that cost though.

Bottom line, killing is not like in the movies If you are not prepared for it, there is a good chance that killing another person can frak you up.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 6:43:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2008 6:50:57 PM EST by warlord]
For those folks who believe that a helment is necessary for their preps, the Brits make a lighter wieght helment forget what is called, but I think its available from Brigade Quatermaster. It wieghs about a 1lb less.

I will forgo the helment, and hopefully, I won't see the repeat of the 1992 L.A. Riots where one would be helpful. To me, avoid encounters during SHtF paramount. I think I would invest a good pair of boots for the family.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 7:26:52 PM EST
If nothing else a good "skater" helmet can keep you from cracking your mellon while dodging fire.... + it make a good NVG platform, weighs very little, most are comfortable and work well with goggles/ gas masks. + they look way more like DELTA than the rangers in blackhawk down.

Just a thought.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 8:32:48 PM EST
a pro tec will keep your grape safe from flying debris.....hell i've been hit in the head with kayak paddles with one on. Also have bounced my head off of rocks underwater with one...couldn't tell you the speed I was going but it was enough to wake me up and ring my bell. They're far from the best for protection but they'll do for most things.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 8:42:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2008 8:46:14 PM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 4/7/2008 4:55:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2008 4:59:54 AM EST by l1a1man]

Originally Posted By JAD:
In all honesty, I never really thought about buying a K-POT for SHTF use. However, I recieved a NATO K-POT as a Christmas swap item, and I figure that as interesting as a curio it is, it could also have some potential SHTF use. I spent $3 on a DPM cover for it (stimulating the economy, I guess)

img137.imageshack.us/img137/7137/p1030129bj6.jpg
img409.imageshack.us/img409/825/p1030128yp2.jpg


Where did you get your DPM cover?

I do have a ballistic light weight helmet I bought. Don't think I would hump it, I don't like to wear them at work either.
Link Posted: 4/7/2008 10:35:32 PM EST
If you would have asked when all that was available at the time was steel pots and k-pots, I would have said no. Hell, a standard k-pot won't even stand up to a 9mm.

I just picked up an RBR F6 PAGST style helmet from brigade quartermasters. Bastage ran me over 3 bills, but it's rated IIIA and is relatively light. With that in mind, yes, I'll be taking mine.

Body armor can be expensive and heavy/uncomfortable depending on your needs, whether you're just rollin with soft body armor or a full setup with SAPI plates.

How much is your life worth?hinking.gif
Link Posted: 4/8/2008 5:43:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By l1a1man:

Originally Posted By JAD:
In all honesty, I never really thought about buying a K-POT for SHTF use. However, I recieved a NATO K-POT as a Christmas swap item, and I figure that as interesting as a curio it is, it could also have some potential SHTF use. I spent $3 on a DPM cover for it (stimulating the economy, I guess)

img137.imageshack.us/img137/7137/p1030129bj6.jpg
img409.imageshack.us/img409/825/p1030128yp2.jpg


Where did you get your DPM cover?

I do have a ballistic light weight helmet I bought. Don't think I would hump it, I don't like to wear them at work either.

Local Army/Navy store has a bin of them for $3 a pop. If you want one, I'll pick one up for you next time I'm there. Let me know.

My helmet's Brit made, so I figured it should get a Brit cover.

Humping it- probably wouldn't. However, for (especially for a bug in scenario) during a period of serious civil unrest, or when there is a lot of flying debris, I would be apt to don it, or at least keep it close by.
Link Posted: 4/8/2008 6:29:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/8/2008 6:30:46 AM EST by WhyTanFox]
BulletProofMe.com has PASGT-cut III-A helmets for $250-290. As a plus, they're about a quarter pound lighter than the MICH/ACH style (and a good $100+ cheaper to boot). What are the benefits of one style over the other?

While items like ballistic protection and night vision are not as important as food and water, I do not see the next Executive Administration trying to "reasonably regulate" 50# bags of rice and beans.

::shrug::

-WhyTanFox
Link Posted: 4/8/2008 7:31:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By JAD:

Originally Posted By l1a1man:

Originally Posted By JAD:
In all honesty, I never really thought about buying a K-POT for SHTF use. However, I recieved a NATO K-POT as a Christmas swap item, and I figure that as interesting as a curio it is, it could also have some potential SHTF use. I spent $3 on a DPM cover for it (stimulating the economy, I guess)

img137.imageshack.us/img137/7137/p1030129bj6.jpg
img409.imageshack.us/img409/825/p1030128yp2.jpg


Where did you get your DPM cover?

I do have a ballistic light weight helmet I bought. Don't think I would hump it, I don't like to wear them at work either.

Local Army/Navy store has a bin of them for $3 a pop. If you want one, I'll pick one up for you next time I'm there. Let me know.

My helmet's Brit made, so I figured it should get a Brit cover.

Humping it- probably wouldn't. However, for (especially for a bug in scenario) during a period of serious civil unrest, or when there is a lot of flying debris, I would be apt to don it, or at least keep it close by.


Yes please. IM sent
Link Posted: 4/8/2008 7:45:52 AM EST
I somehow got to keep my kpot, and have it as a memento, but I doubt I will be lugging that heavy bastard along if I'm going on foot. Even if I'm going on patrol, it's too cumbersome.


*I will bring along a flotation device though.
Link Posted: 4/8/2008 8:27:25 AM EST
I have a couple of USGI surplus steel pots and a surplus british kevlar helment. I also have a USGI flakjacket and a german flakjacket. Body armour has its place in the event the shtf, especialy around the house. If I had to bug out, that shit would stay at home though.
Link Posted: 4/8/2008 11:18:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
beerslayer, you did those tests and didn't post the range report on arfcom? and if you did, link please.

was it an issue PASGT or chicom? sure?

if helmets are so worthless, you guys can tell uncle sam to save a lot of money...


www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

Not Beerslayers tests, but Old_Painless did one...
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 3:51:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2008 3:52:26 PM EST by boltcatch]
If I think that actually getting into a gunfight is likely, then I'm not going, if at all possible. But if I have to anyways, you can bet your ass I'm bringing a rifle, and situation and environment permitting, body armor.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 4:31:01 PM EST
If helmets and body armour are part of anyones plans, then I hope you train in them. Seriously train, too; not just static shooting while wearing the stuff. God help the man who puts on a vest with plates and expects to perform the same cardio-wise as he did bareass.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 6:45:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shrike37:
I'm not going to bother with a military quality helmet for combat unless the zombies have HE devices (frags, RPGs, arty, etc.). Other than explosive weapons, there is not much use for the loss of comfort and added weight. If you are worried about bumping your head on crap, use a lightweight biking helmet.

Another thing to consider, is that with the average person, it is supposedly easier (mentally that is) to shoot someone who is wearing a helmet. It helps the shooter depersonalize them.

I think to some extent that is true. What sort of hostile would be easier to pull the trigger on at close ranges, say some guy decked out in a uniform, helmet, ballistic sun glasses or goggles, balaclava, and other gear all over OR a guy in jeans and a t-shirt where you can see the color of his eyes and the sweat on his brow? The less they look like an average human, the easier it is on your conscience to depersonalize them and thus kill them.
the other side of the coin is its a hell of a lot scarier when youre not sure they are human but they ARE coming for YOU!
Link Posted: 4/16/2008 10:07:34 AM EST
It provides a place to hang my pvs-14 off

and a place to tap my mags
Link Posted: 4/16/2008 10:13:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2008 10:15:21 AM EST by SilentType]
I stated this earlier on page one, but I'll state it again and illustrate it via this youtube.com video.

Have you folks can see what flying glass or other flying material can do to the human head? You might want more than a plastic helmet or ballcap folks.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vdzyqQIEAI

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPnMOZn7v20&feature=related

Watch the pumpkin get pealed away by the flying glass...yeah you're not going to be too pretty after something like that or talk right without a good kevlar helmet.

Take note of the rate of speed things have to move to break human bones.

Link Posted: 4/16/2008 10:22:06 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By 4Kilo12:
It provides ... a place to tap my mags Yeah, that sucks when I do that but forget I'm not wearing mine...
Link Posted: 4/16/2008 10:37:57 AM EST
I would like to add, it's a pain in the ass running with a helmet on. If STHF and I am on foot, I will being running a lot.
Link Posted: 4/16/2008 11:44:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
beerslayer, you did those tests and didn't post the range report on arfcom? and if you did, link please.

was it an issue PASGT or chicom? sure?

if helmets are so worthless, you guys can tell uncle sam to save a lot of money...


It is common knowledge that they don't stop rifle rounds and pistol rounds are maybes. Check out Old_Painless' website for his testing on this. Uncle Sugar buys helmets for troops to protect them from shrapnel and head trauma/injury, not bullets.
Link Posted: 4/16/2008 11:46:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shrike37:

Originally Posted By Caliburn:

Originally Posted By Shrike37:
Another thing to consider, is that with the average person, it is supposedly easier (mentally that is) to shoot someone who is wearing a helmet. It helps the shooter depersonalize them.

That's interesting, Shrike. Where did you hear that?


On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

It is a very interesting read for anyone who foresees the possibility of having to kill another human being in self defense or war. It is a real eye opener. Killing another human, for a normal person, is a very difficult thing to do when you can see the person up close and personal. Killing another person also has a very high psychological cost that you must be ready and willing to accept. Proper conditioning and other factors that Mr. Grossman mentions in the book can help to mitigate that cost though.

Bottom line, killing is not like in the movies If you are not prepared for it, there is a good chance that killing another person can frak you up.


I know it's a thread Hijack but i think his books are overrated, oversimplified, and overrestated and pretty much mind numbing after about the middle.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 10:37:23 AM EST
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