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Posted: 4/16/2007 1:37:19 AM EDT
I've been thinking a lot about what kind of vehicle I will buy in a July. I know it has to be BOV and daily commuter capable. It also has to be 4 wheel drive/off road capable.

I've always wanted a Taco and love the idea of combining that with a camper shell and making a nice portable base-camp with parts/tools/gear/food/water.

on the other hand:

We know the possibilities of EMP and have read Lights Out.
Which leads me to consider fixing up something older and American made like a Blazer.

But I noticed that a lot of people here still seem to have newer vehicles that would be susceptible to EMP. Is that because people don't consider it a real enough threat to deal with an older vehicle? Is it because of financial limitations? Is it because of the comfort/capabilities of newer vehicles? What?
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 5:54:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ryn_v:
I noticed that a lot of people here still seem to have newer vehicles that would be susceptible to EMP.


you know they would be susceptible to EMP because... ?

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 5:59:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 6:00:57 AM EDT by Avalon01]
What are the odds of ever being hit with an EMP device?

There are VERY few nations that posses the capability. China and Russia are the only threats right now.

If you are rally worried about it, buy a modern day vehicle for your daily driver, and then get an old truck for a BOV.

Av.

edit: anyway, I don't think anyone really knows what will happen to a modern day car in a EMP. Might work just fine.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 6:25:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
What are the odds of ever being hit with an EMP device?


odds of being in an auto accident: 1 in 8.
odds of having your car broken into: 1 in 25.
odds of being EMP'd: 1 in a bazillion.

i'll take the advanced safety equipment in modern vehicles (airbags, sidebags, pillar bags, anti-lock brakes, stability control, crumple zones, etc) and the advanced security features in modern vehicles (coded keys, anti-theft radio, etched windows, panic FOB, etc) than worry for one second whether my 2002 Toyota Tacoma or 2000 BMW 323i is somehow remotely suscpeptible to EMP.

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 4/16/2007 8:21:53 AM EDT
"Electo-Magnetic Pulse"
The perfect gift for the guy who's run out of things to worry about.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 8:34:24 AM EDT
EMP is way down the list of things I worry about. Buy a horse.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:44:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 9:45:00 AM EDT by TheTransporter]

Originally Posted By rxdawg:
EMP is way down the list of things I worry about. Buy a horse.


I agree. I think if your vehicle or you are close enough for EMP issues.... you have other (larger) issues to deal with...
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:08:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
What are the odds of ever being hit with an EMP device?


odds of being in an auto accident: 1 in 8.
odds of having your car broken into: 1 in 25.
odds of being EMP'd: 1 in a bazillion.

i'll take the advanced safety equipment in modern vehicles (airbags, sidebags, pillar bags, anti-lock brakes, stability control, crumple zones, etc) and the advanced security features in modern vehicles (coded keys, anti-theft radio, etched windows, panic FOB, etc) than worry for one second whether my 2002 Toyota Tacoma or 2000 BMW 323i is somehow remotely suscpeptible to EMP.

ar-jedi



As of right now, I would rather have modern technology on my side, too.


Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

you know they would be susceptible to EMP because... ?

ar-jedi


You're right, I definitely don't know for sure. I'm just trying to get a feel for how many people consider this to be worth the effort to think about.

Link Posted: 4/16/2007 11:33:59 AM EDT
I used a worst case EMP scenario to make "Lights Out" more interesting. I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over the possibility, however. I don't really know what effect an EMP would have on a modern car. I know at least some of them have a "limp home" mode that is supposed to kick in if the computer breaks. If we did have an EMP strike, you probably wouldn't be driving much even if your car does work. Gasoline would be in short supply very quickly I imagine.

I think that EMP war gaming is good. It makes us consider things that we might not otherwise think of. That is why I think we like Zombie fiction so much. It is the ultimate SHTF situation and if we are ready for that, we should be able to handle almost anything.

One thing that I am big on that the EMP possibility made me think about is having an alternative method to BO. There are many possible scenarios could see the highways clogged to the point that escape in a vehicle, even a very off-road capable truck, might be impossible. I plan to use my quads if I have to, and I even have a backup to go on foot if necessary. Of course we plan to bug in first.

Thinking about things like a worst case EMP is beneficial, but obsessing about them is not.

I hope this helps,

David

Link Posted: 4/16/2007 11:42:14 AM EDT
I would need a BOL first where I would go to is pretty imortant. BOV, feet, MTN Bike, if emp'ed. Car otherwise, at least you could eat the horse if you had to.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 11:46:13 AM EDT
I am not so worried about an EMP weapon from another nation. What about naturally
occurring EMP such as a Solar Storm?
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 11:46:50 AM EDT
David-

I agree with you on not overly worrying about EMP. I think this pretty much settles my conundrum.

AND, you're book is great, I'm finishing up the last 10 chapters now.

Ryan
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 6:14:55 PM EDT
Back around 1998 I heard that .gov had some engineers at Ford sign confidentiality agreements (around 1995) so they could get emp protected vehicles on the road. It was supposedly an across the board effort at getting all new Ford vehicles emp hardened, with special emphasis on emergency response vehicles.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 6:50:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Back around 1998 I heard that .gov had some engineers at Ford sign confidentiality agreements (around 1995) so they could get emp protected vehicles on the road. It was supposedly an across the board effort at getting all new Ford vehicles emp hardened, with special emphasis on emergency response vehicles.


link?
reference?

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 6:59:23 PM EDT
BMW's are EMP proof. Buy an X5. 4x4, good BOV, etc.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 7:42:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pangris:
BMW's are EMP proof. Buy an X5. 4x4, good BOV, etc.


link?
reference?

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 7:54:32 PM EDT
I built and EMP and tested it against my 325i. Car still runs like a champ, but my neighbors hate me.

<­BR>

I'm talking out my ass. With no bees and crazy chinamen shooting up VT, who gives a fuck about EMPs??????
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 8:32:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 8:34:20 PM EDT by RedhorseG20]
If there is an EMP how will those with Optics shoot straight?

What brands have been tested?

If you are scared I will trade you heads up for some good old iron sights!
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 8:35:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 8:36:03 PM EDT by pangris]
The man makes a good point - if in your EMP BOB, you have a RDS on your AR, you better have BUIS or you will be SOL.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 8:36:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 8:37:20 PM EDT by Skibane]

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
odds of being in an auto accident: 1 in 8.
odds of having your car broken into: 1 in 25.
odds of being EMP'd: 1 in a bazillion.


To which I would only add:

odds of being EMP'd AND having your vehicle disabled by it : 1 in a much-bigger bazillion.

Folks, it's time to stop believing (and passing along) all the internet bullshit about EMP.

Rule Of Thumb: If you are expending any significant effort preparing for EMP, YOU HAVE BEEN MISINFORMED.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:24:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pangris:
BMW's are EMP proof. Buy an X5. 4x4, good BOV, etc.


X5's are POS's IMO.


My BOV is either my 03 Tahoe or if EMP (not that I really thought of that) is an 88 3/4 ton Suburban with a winch.

Whit
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:35:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grove:
X5's are POS's IMO.


And you are entitled to that opinion. I'd take an X5 over a Tahoe every day of the week. Makes the world go round.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:53:25 PM EDT
Ok, so it looks like the overwhelming consensus is:

"No we don't worry about EMP being a factor."

I get it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 7:30:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pangris:

Originally Posted By Grove:
X5's are POS's IMO.


And you are entitled to that opinion. I'd take an X5 over a Tahoe every day of the week. Makes the world go round.


After our X5 needed a $6000 transmission @ 65k I decided they were junk. The dealer said it was a common problem then informed me that it was a "non servicable" part.

I definately don't think GM has any build quality but it is a comfortable SUV that tows my boat. New Tundra's have my vote.

Whit
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 7:35:17 PM EDT
I have a Expedition EB, 5.4, 4x4 - my choice for the $$.

I also have a BMW sedan. BMWs are known for having so-so automatic trannys. Solution - buy the manual. It is a shame they don't offer the 4.4 as such, but I keep checking out the 3.0 with a manual...

Link Posted: 4/17/2007 7:38:09 PM EDT
Yeah sacrifice a nice truck so you can try to navigate roads strewn with vehicles that dont work (if that would ever happen) and are covered with people and crap everywhere... You would not be able to use the roads and you would have to move out on foot anyway. People who worry about EMP have serious psychologocal problems that need to be worked out by a counselor IMO.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 8:41:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Yeah sacrifice a nice truck so you can try to navigate roads strewn with vehicles that dont work (if that would ever happen) and are covered with people and crap everywhere... You would not be able to use the roads and you would have to move out on foot anyway. People who worry about EMP have serious psychologocal problems that need to be worked out by a counselor IMO.


Notwithstanding that thought, and the posts of ar-jedi and Skibane, I still wouldn't be surprised to see an EMP attack on the US in my lifetime, nor do I think anyone really knows what the effects would be, especially if the weapon originated in Russia or China and it's detonated at a sufficiently high altitude. I'll make an appointment with a counselor tomorrow.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 8:56:24 PM EDT
AGNTSA

I will now summarize my many weeks of experience on a national lab EMP test range with a commercial vehicle (commercial engine & ignition system & electrical harness). The vehicle portion (not the payload) was unprotected against the field. The field generated was at a nominal strength and rise time characteristic of a "bad event".

Ready?


"Don't worry about it".


CWO
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:32:41 PM EDT
How 'bout if everyone saves the condescension for the GD forum. I was just throwing an idea out for feedback, not proposing a new theory or anything.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 10:06:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Halffast:I hope this helps,

David



David!!!

Wonderfule to see you here friend!!!!
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 10:13:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 10:20:45 PM EDT by HuckMeat]



How 'bout if everyone saves the condescension for the GD forum. I was just throwing an idea out for feedback, not proposing a new theory or anything.


+1

I'd say this forum is full of the smartest folks, across a broad spectrum. If we can all tolerate the repeat questions, answer then quickly, and help everyone get informed, we've done a little bit to help other folks make preps....

I understand wavelengths and whatnot, and it still took me 6 months to come to my conclusions...

Be kind, we're all learning,
m

ETA: Spelling...
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 8:32:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pangris:
AGNTSA, if TSHTF and in your EMP BOB, you have a RDS on your AR, you better have BUIS or you will be SOL, IMO.


LMAO!
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 3:39:30 PM EDT
All things are possible. Not all things are probable. Yet sometimes the improbable happens. To fail to at least consider the issue, make your own assessment of the risks, and then plan accordingly, is not generally a wise decision.

Case in point: The likelihood of being in a location when some lunatic starts shooting up the place is extremely remote. Yet that doesn't stop many of us from regularly carrying a personal defense firearm.

You pays your money and takes your chances. Then you live with the consequences of your decisions... if you guessed right.

If you guess wrong you can always hope that folks say nice things about you at your funeral.


Link Posted: 4/18/2007 6:53:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kar98k:
To fail to at least consider the issue, make your own assessment of the risks, and then plan accordingly, is not generally a wise decision.


ok, i'll play.

anyone who has an advanced education in electrical engineering, has worked in the EMC/EMI/ESD/EFT/EMP/TEMPEST fields for more than 20 years, has both desktop analysis and practical testing knowledge of the immunity of various analog and digital electronic circuits to externally-imposed H- and E-fields (up to 1KV/m) and extremely fast risetime impulses, PLEASE RAISE YOUR ARM AND SPEAK TO US ABOUT THE RISKS THAT WE ARE FAILING TO CONSIDER....

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 8:51:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

ok, i'll play.

anyone who has an advanced education in electrical engineering, has worked in the EMC/EMI/ESD/EFT/EMP/TEMPEST fields for more than 20 years, has both desktop analysis and practical testing knowledge of the immunity of various analog and digital electronic circuits to externally-imposed H- and E-fields (up to 1KV/m) and extremely fast risetime impulses, PLEASE RAISE YOUR ARM AND SPEAK TO US ABOUT THE RISKS THAT WE ARE FAILING TO CONSIDER....

ar-jedi


ar-jedi, I respect your opinions on subjects like this, and I'll be the first to admit that my own education falls far outside the realm of EE, much less the more specialized training you've had. Also, I'm not entirely sure if we're just talking about cars, or if the original question and your responses have been more generalized.

In either case, I honestly have a hard time believing that there is a near zero probability that an EMP attack could zap (how's that for a technical term?) cars and maybe other things with circuit boards, which is what I think you were saying. So let me explain why I'm still skeptical:

1. There was that US nuke test in the Pacific 50 years ago (Starfish Prime maybe??) that screwed up some electronics in Honolulu, which was maybe 1000 miles away. I don't remember the details, but I think it awakened the military to the possibility of EMP effects, and I also suspect that it was a surface test which would be far less damaging from an EMP standpoint than a high altitude burst.

2. The US military took the possibility seriously enough that for decades it "hardened" military systems to protect them from possible EMP effects. I don't know why they would do that unless they believed there was some vulnerability. And I believe the military's emphasis was not on things like power lines that are presumably more vulnerable, but rather individual things like planes, missles, tanks and ships, which are more like individual automobiles.

3. I have read a number of articles stating that Soviet first-strike doctrine involved starting the festivities with several high altitude EMP bursts, in the hope or expectation that the bursts would impair our ability to respond. The Cold War Soviets were no pikers in the nuke department, and again I wonder why they would make the effort if there were a near zero probability of it accomplishing anything.

4. I've also read that the US and the Soviets researched nuke warheads that would be enhanced or optimized for EMP purposes. Which again suggests that there was some meat on this bone.

4. I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but there was a show on the Discovery Channel or something that dealt in part with EMP. As part of the show, a guy went to Los Alamos or some other installation in New Mexico, where the US military was (still) investigating EMP effects. The guy drove his rental car under an EMP simulator (my terminology is certainly wrong, but that's essentially what it was), and it killed the car. I know it's a TV show, with all that implies, but I do not believe that they faked the part about the EMP killing the car.

5. I've read other seemingly-credible websites saying that high altitude EMP bursts may indeed pose a threat to electric components with integrated circuits. You will reasonably ask for cites, and I think I've probably bookmarked a couple, but it would take an hour or two to find them and I'm not willing to do the digging. I really don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just curious how you can be as certain as you are.

6. Finally, I am naturally skeptical of "absolute" scientific or engineering statements (like the Titanic being unsinkable) because there is too long a history of them being wrong. The fact is that there has never been a high-altitude, high-megaton explosion of a nuclear device, and I understand that those are the conditions ideally suited to an effective EMP burst, for atmospheric and electrical reasons that I don't pretend to understand. The point being, since it's never really been tested in its ideal medium, how can we know what the results would be?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm certainly not trying to start a pissing match. (You probably already knew that.) I also understand that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and I may well fall into that category. But I'm still having a hard time understanding why this is so clearly a non-issue as you say it is.

I hope you'll respond because I'm curious about this. Please don't get too "jargony" because you'll lose me and because it's not necessary to respond to the things I asked about. And I don't mean to direct this just at ar-jedi, anyone else please chime in, too.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 9:47:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By kar98k:
To fail to at least consider the issue, make your own assessment of the risks, and then plan accordingly, is not generally a wise decision.


ok, i'll play.

anyone who has an advanced education in electrical engineering, has worked in the EMC/EMI/ESD/EFT/EMP/TEMPEST fields for more than 20 years, has both desktop analysis and practical testing knowledge of the immunity of various analog and digital electronic circuits to externally-imposed H- and E-fields (up to 1KV/m) and extremely fast risetime impulses, PLEASE RAISE YOUR ARM AND SPEAK TO US ABOUT THE RISKS THAT WE ARE FAILING TO CONSIDER....

ar-jedi


Nicely said.... I have given up on this topic Jedi but I completely agree with you. You have said it a few dozen times now and I have too to a lesser extent. Do we need the wine glass example yet again? Somehow I doubt it will do any good.

Is it a threat? Probably, but so low that we should worry about it after we have a years supply of food and livestock already set up.

I rank EMP so low on my list of threats that its practically not on it. Tornados. floods, power outages and civil disturbances are FAR more likely. Prepare for these. None of us have the equipment nor the education to properly prepare for an EMP.

LTC
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 9:53:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EndGame:

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

ok, i'll play.

anyone who has an advanced education in electrical engineering, has worked in the EMC/EMI/ESD/EFT/EMP/TEMPEST fields for more than 20 years, has both desktop analysis and practical testing knowledge of the immunity of various analog and digital electronic circuits to externally-imposed H- and E-fields (up to 1KV/m) and extremely fast risetime impulses, PLEASE RAISE YOUR ARM AND SPEAK TO US ABOUT THE RISKS THAT WE ARE FAILING TO CONSIDER....

ar-jedi


ar-jedi, I respect your opinions on subjects like this, and I'll be the first to admit that my own education falls far outside the realm of EE, much less the more specialized training you've had. Also, I'm not entirely sure if we're just talking about cars, or if the original question and your responses have been more generalized.

In either case, I honestly have a hard time believing that there is a near zero probability that an EMP attack could zap (how's that for a technical term?) cars and maybe other things with circuit boards, which is what I think you were saying. So let me explain why I'm still skeptical:

1. There was that US nuke test in the Pacific 50 years ago (Starfish Prime maybe??) that screwed up some electronics in Honolulu, which was maybe 1000 miles away. I don't remember the details, but I think it awakened the military to the possibility of EMP effects, and I also suspect that it was a surface test which would be far less damaging from an EMP standpoint than a high altitude burst.

2. The US military took the possibility seriously enough that for decades it "hardened" military systems to protect them from possible EMP effects. I don't know why they would do that unless they believed there was some vulnerability. And I believe the military's emphasis was not on things like power lines that are presumably more vulnerable, but rather individual things like planes, missles, tanks and ships, which are more like individual automobiles.

3. I have read a number of articles stating that Soviet first-strike doctrine involved starting the festivities with several high altitude EMP bursts, in the hope or expectation that the bursts would impair our ability to respond. The Cold War Soviets were no pikers in the nuke department, and again I wonder why they would make the effort if there were a near zero probability of it accomplishing anything.

4. I've also read that the US and the Soviets researched nuke warheads that would be enhanced or optimized for EMP purposes. Which again suggests that there was some meat on this bone.

4. I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but there was a show on the Discovery Channel or something that dealt in part with EMP. As part of the show, a guy went to Los Alamos or some other installation in New Mexico, where the US military was (still) investigating EMP effects. The guy drove his rental car under an EMP simulator (my terminology is certainly wrong, but that's essentially what it was), and it killed the car. I know it's a TV show, with all that implies, but I do not believe that they faked the part about the EMP killing the car.

5. I've read other seemingly-credible websites saying that high altitude EMP bursts may indeed pose a threat to electric components with integrated circuits. You will reasonably ask for cites, and I think I've probably bookmarked a couple, but it would take an hour or two to find them and I'm not willing to do the digging. I really don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just curious how you can be as certain as you are.

6. Finally, I am naturally skeptical of "absolute" scientific or engineering statements (like the Titanic being unsinkable) because there is too long a history of them being wrong. The fact is that there has never been a high-altitude, high-megaton explosion of a nuclear device, and I understand that those are the conditions ideally suited to an effective EMP burst, for atmospheric and electrical reasons that I don't pretend to understand. The point being, since it's never really been tested in its ideal medium, how can we know what the results would be?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm certainly not trying to start a pissing match. (You probably already knew that.) I also understand that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and I may well fall into that category. But I'm still having a hard time understanding why this is so clearly a non-issue as you say it is.

I hope you'll respond because I'm curious about this. Please don't get too "jargony" because you'll lose me and because it's not necessary to respond to the things I asked about. And I don't mean to direct this just at ar-jedi, anyone else please chime in, too.


A good response and logical as to the threat. However I suspect that statistical review of the probability of an EMP event compared with the probability of fire/flood/tornado/riots and such will show that it is a poor choice to dedicate the necessary resources to harden yourself against an EMP. It would just take to many of the resourses away from the more probable events.

Again good response. And I can see where you are coming from.

LTC
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 10:51:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2007 10:54:44 PM EDT by Skibane]
EndGame - Nobody is claiming that an EMP event would cause no damage. What IS being claimed is that:

1. The amount of damage that would be caused in any conceivable EMP event is GREATLY exagerated in internet lore. Since the early 1960's, there has been considerable real-world testing on the effects of EMP, virtually all of which confirms that only certain classes of devices are vulnerable - namely, devices which are connected to very long wires or other large electrical conductors (i.e., AC power lines, telephone lines, large antennas, etc.). Automobiles do NOT fall into this category, because (A.) none of their electrical devices are connected to any particuarly long wires, (B.) most of their wiring is semi-shielded behind a metal body, and (C.) their electronics are factory-designed to shrug off the high voltage spikes that are normally present in an automotive environment (due to the presence of motors, relay coils, spark ignition system, etc.). Thus, as CWO implied, automobiles are among the LEAST likely of items that would be disabled by EMP.

2. Generating an EMP that is strong enough to affect a significant portion of the United States requires a very large nuke, detonated at a very high orbit, and located immediately over the central part of the continent. Back in its heyday, Russia MAY have been capable of pulling this trifecta off. Nowadays, it is doubtful that ANYONE (other than a couple of our Western allies) could accomplish it.

BOTTOM LINE: The threat associated with EMP is dwarfed by at least several hundred other more likely threats - each of which should be addressed first.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 2:39:34 AM EDT
Disclaimer: I am in no way an EMP expert.....

However I do know that most of the vehicles I work on are in no way hardened for EMP, most of the electronics are off the shelf, the same stuff as in your POVs.

The last few vehicles we have that were built with EMP in mind are a few old 2 1/2s and some M800 5tons. If DOD sees no problem of putting me in the field with non-EMP shielded vehicles, I'm pretty sure you guys are safe.

There's a whole lot more to be concerned about besides EMP. Katrina really opened my eyes as to where I need to spend my efforts.
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