Body Armor: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Page 2 of 4)
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Originally Posted By D-R:
Altair- That would be great. Regarding the plates, the compressed Spectra or Dyneema in hard plates are *less* susceptible to heat that the soft armor versions. Having said that, they should be protected from exposure to heat if possible. I look at it this way- ceramic plates and Dyneema plates each have a certain care and feeding regimen that must be followed. Trunks can be bad for both- ceramic plates should not be tossed in trunks, and Dyneema/Spectra plates should not be left in trunks. It takes *longer* to get the compressed material isothermic, but you can still see a degrading of the surface material. So definitely take them inside to your gear locker! Hope that helps. The plates won't be living in the trunk, they will be there during my shift only. That said, the trunk can still get pretty hot so I have some concerns. Since the TAC3S plates use steel on the outside, do they require spall guards? ETA: I wore the plates today at the range for a few hours. I have to say I'm impressed with the PIG plate carrier from SKD so far. Despite the weight of the plates (15lbs) and the total weight of the rig with gear being 26lbs they wore very well and were comfortable in that carrier. |
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Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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| I have some armor that I was issued about 20 years ago. It is Point blank Hi Lite IIIA XT concealable vest. It says aramid/spectra on the label. I wore it a lot in the past and I do not think it ever got over 180 degrees (but it is possible it did as it was mostly in AZ at the time). It is in visually good shape and I now have it stashed away for a "just in case" circumstance. Is there a way to determine if it is still any good or if the spectra has gone bad? If it is no longer good there isn't much sense in keeping it around. |
I am the undertaker.
| Hey D-R, great info....what is the difference between a shank vest and a regular vest? |
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You can't see the wind can you? ....But you can feel it and feel it's effects all around you correct? 1GunRunner
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Eric the Hun Rest in Peace
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NIJ Test Standard 0101.06 has no provision for contact shots in regard to soft armor. All rounds are fired at 5M +/- 1M from the panel. Again, instituting contact shot requirements would remove all laminates from body armor, and the companies that make them apply a lot of lobbying pressure to prevent it. Even the FBI protocol does not address contact shots, though it is more rigorous. Below is a link to the NIJ protocol so everyone has it:
http://nij.gov/pubs-sum/223054.htm Autumn- I would be very leery of Spectra that old, just because it has had longer to be exposed to the high temp threshold. And is the Aramid woven, or laminate? If woven, then half the vest is GTG. If laminate, meh, not so much. If you can, pull the ballistic package and see if it is woven or laminate material. PM me if you get a chance. Wind- A "shank" vest is typically issued to Corrections officers, and is designed to resist penetration by sharp implements. While they are often designed similarly to standard ballistic vests, they typically consist of more tightly woven aramid fabric to resist shanks, knives, and icepicks. There are some hybrid vests that are both ballistic and stab rated. The more recent vests use a blend of fibers to enhance stab resistance- they work pretty well. |
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Guys out at the range on my job, "shoot the shit out of" all sorts of old armor. Even stuff from the 1970's.
The consensus is generally that of suprise, at how well the panels hold up, and how many 9mm,,45, .357, hits they take. (Oh, 12Ga also) If I had an old vest, and the SHTF, I'd wear it. |
Fill your arms with those you lift up....you'll have no room left to tear others down....
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Eric- That's just what I am saying- the "cheap" vests are often made with the good stuff. KM2 is very, very good.
OneLeg- 1970's era Kevlar is among the best. They really over-engineered the early vests, and they can take a licking. If you find one, wear it with confidence! |
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D-R
I know this is way out there, but any guess what these might be made of, and if they would be any good? Thanks ETA: A little more research leads me to believe they are polyethylene, so I take it they are not a great deal. Do you know of any sources of a decent quality cheap Level 3 stand alone plate out there? Thanks again. |
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Originally Posted By juslearnin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NEW-10x12-GAMMA-PLATE-LEVEL-III-ESAPI-BODY-ARMOR-/160667321925?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256884c645Do you know of any sources of a decent quality cheap Level 3 stand alone plate out there? $130 per plate for Level 3+ is a good bargain in my books. Doc GKR even rates them highly. |
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| D-R, should I be using spall guards on my TAC3S plates since they use a layer of steel? |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Originally Posted By Altair:
D-R, should I be using spall guards on my TAC3S plates since they use a layer of steel? I just spoke with an AMI rep and he advised that the TAC3S plates do not require spall guards. The coating before the steel is designed specifically to catch spall. Everything I can find about these plates seems to indicate they are top notch and tried to think of everything. The only complaint I've found is the weight. I'm still waiting to hear back from SKD about the Kevlar side armor. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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| Thanks, we have kevlar, my department is too cheap to buy us bullet vest, we have to share them...well the special guys don;t they get their own |
Homeland Security is the American People
You can't see the wind can you? ....But you can feel it and feel it's effects all around you correct? 1GunRunner
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You can't see the wind can you? ....But you can feel it and feel it's effects all around you correct? 1GunRunner
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Eric the Hun Rest in Peace
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Juslearnin'- The Mile Dragic Plates are actually a good deal. You WILL NOT find a less expensive plate that is standalone Level III out there. Only complaints I have heard is the long shipping time from Serbia. And they are square cut, so a lot of plate carriers will not work with them. My investigation actually revealed that they are at least partially constructed with the Russian version of woven Kevlar. Heck, if someone wanted to split a set with me, I would be willing to get one for testing ($50 a plate shipped is decent).
Altair- Nope these plates are generally ok with spall. You can still run guards, and some guys do, but it is less of a concern. I would still do backers, even though they are rated standalone. Wind- That is a shame- I would not want to share a vest with anyone else- who knows what kind of crappy maintenance/lack therof they are doing? And with my luck, I would share it with someone who sweats Alien Blood, dissolving the freakin' vest by the time it was my turn to wear it. What kind of vests are they? |
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D-R, do you still sell titanium inserts for vests and carriers? I have soft armor in 3 of my carriers and not looking to add full plates, just added protection for pistol rounds.
I didn't see this, but how do most IIA or IIIA vests fare against 12 ga buckshot or slugs? |
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| I have tested different shot,slugs and handgun rounds on some of my old vests. They are Level 3s. They stopped ALL handgun rounds tested. From 22 to 45 acp with little deformation. I didn't test it with the FN 5.6 because it is said to slice right throw it according to a memo sent out. On the shotgun side all the buckshot we fired was stopped at 10 yards or greater. But the vest did stop some of the lower velocity slugs. Most slugs went throw however even the slugs that were stopped had enough energy to fling the vest down range. This seemed to indicate to us that those could still be critical injuries because the vest deformed more than 4 inches. One of the vests was all Kevlar but the lighter vest we tested was spectra something or other. We should have tried at closer ranges 7 and 10 seemed a standard that we shoot at. |
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Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By D-R:
Altair- SKD makes good kit. I would say the likelihood is good that they are woven, but it will be good to make sure. Kevlar when completely soaked loses about 40% effectiveness, but returns to full value as it dries. Light rain or sweat really won't affect it much, but it is good to know. I subscribe to the school of not trying to keep it waterproof, because if you apply a waterproofing chemical to the fibers, it causes it to become flammable, and some evidence exists that it compromises the ballistic effectiveness. If you try to keep it dry inside a sealed or non-permeable fabric covering, if you get a single hole in the shell, and it gets wet, it will keep the water inside, thus negating the whole point. If your panels get wet, dry them when you can. :) SKD has two different side panels available for the PIG Plate Carrier, the one I linked that is Kevlar and a Dyneema version. The Dyneema is more expensive and was what I thought I wanted until reading this thread. I will post SKD's response here in case there is anyone else with a PIG looking to add the soft armor side panels. One last thing, you mentioned that the TAC3S uses Spectra and that Spectra has some trouble with heat but it is less of an issue with hard armor. I know you mentioned 180 degrees will degrade the soft armor, what temp with the hard armor start to exhibit problems? My armor will spend most of its life in the trunk of a squad and while I'm in the midwest, so I won't have the same heat as a cop in Arizona or Texas, the trunk of a squad can get pretty hot here. Is there a magic number or any way to tell if a plate has been compromised? Any updates? I'm interested since I wanted to buy some for the cummerbund on my Eagle Plate Carrier. |
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Originally Posted By shotdown:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By D-R:
Altair- SKD makes good kit. I would say the likelihood is good that they are woven, but it will be good to make sure. Kevlar when completely soaked loses about 40% effectiveness, but returns to full value as it dries. Light rain or sweat really won't affect it much, but it is good to know. I subscribe to the school of not trying to keep it waterproof, because if you apply a waterproofing chemical to the fibers, it causes it to become flammable, and some evidence exists that it compromises the ballistic effectiveness. If you try to keep it dry inside a sealed or non-permeable fabric covering, if you get a single hole in the shell, and it gets wet, it will keep the water inside, thus negating the whole point. If your panels get wet, dry them when you can. :) SKD has two different side panels available for the PIG Plate Carrier, the one I linked that is Kevlar and a Dyneema version. The Dyneema is more expensive and was what I thought I wanted until reading this thread. I will post SKD's response here in case there is anyone else with a PIG looking to add the soft armor side panels. One last thing, you mentioned that the TAC3S uses Spectra and that Spectra has some trouble with heat but it is less of an issue with hard armor. I know you mentioned 180 degrees will degrade the soft armor, what temp with the hard armor start to exhibit problems? My armor will spend most of its life in the trunk of a squad and while I'm in the midwest, so I won't have the same heat as a cop in Arizona or Texas, the trunk of a squad can get pretty hot here. Is there a magic number or any way to tell if a plate has been compromised? Any updates? I'm interested since I wanted to buy some for the cummerbund on my Eagle Plate Carrier. I use the issued side SAPIs and kevlar lined SAPI holders...... |
Mcneilsen- I had a few left as of October, but a couple gents bought the last few. I am going to try to find the time and funds to get another run together if there is enough interest. I still wish I had purchased more Ti when it was $8 per lb....
Buckshot is fairly easy to stop, and even IIA vests can do it. Slugs are another matter, and there are several out there that will give all but the best IIIA vests a hard time. Minimum is broken ribs with a slug and any vest, due to extreme BFD. Para FN- I would still have tested it with the 5.7. Unless you have the restricted SS190 rounds, they will most likely be stopped by the vest. Plus it is always good to verify for yourself. I do have a question though- what sort of backing/target stand did you use for the tests? If the vest is freehanging, up against a board or cinder block backing, or staked to the ground, none of the results mean squat, unfortunately. I can put 9mm rounds through the best IIIA vest all day if it is draped over a 2X4 or cinder block. And conversely, a freehanging vest can often cause rifle rounds to bounce off. If you are testing soft armor, you need to set it up thusly: Get a 2X4. Wrap it with a towel or two, and duct tape it in a secure but not overly tight fashion. Place 2-3 phone books behind the towel wrapped 2X4, and tape around the whole thing. If possible, put the phone books in front of a plastic barrel half filled with water. Place the panel to be tested in front of the towled 2X4. Shoot. Enjoy! You have to find a setup that mimics the "squishiness" of the body for lack of a better term. You also need to mimic the mass of a human body. A vest placed against a hard surface will seldom stop anything, as it allows the rounds to "cut," the hard surface acting as the lower edge of a pair of scissors. I have had people say that old armor they shot "was not worth a da*m" because of this. "Prior planning...." etc. Same way with free hanging or staked armor- there is no resistance, and round will tend to just bounce off. Altair- Definitely interested when you get the word from SKD. |
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Originally Posted By shotdown:
[ Any updates? I'm interested since I wanted to buy some for the cummerbund on my Eagle Plate Carrier. Still waiting on a reply. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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For anyone wanting to test their old armor, why not make a holder for the armor similar to what the NIJ uses in it's testing?
Specifications from the NIJ .06 standards: 4.2.5 Armor Backing Material 4.2.5.1 Backing Material Fixture The inside dimensions of the backing material fixture shall be 610 mm x 610 mm with a depth of 140 mm (24.0 in x 24.0 in x 5.5 in). The tolerance on all dimensions is ± 2 mm (± 0.08 in). The back of the fixture shall be removable and shall be constructed of 19.1 mm (0.75 in) thick wood or plywood. 4.2.5.2 Fixture Construction The sides of the fixture shall be constructed of rigid wood or metal, preferably with a metal front edge to reliably guide the preparation of the flat front surface of the backing material. 4.2.5.3 Backing Material In the interest of inter-laboratory conformity, Roma Plastilina No.11 oil-based modeling clay shall be used as the backing material. The backing material shall be replaced on an annual basis or more frequently if necessary. 4.2.5.4 Backing Material Surface Preparation The clay in each backing material fixture shall be manipulated to produce a block free of voids, with a smooth front surface for the accurate and consistent measurement of depression depths. The front surface of the backing material shall be even with the reference surface plane defined by the fixture edges. Striking devices of sufficient length shall be used to ensure the reference surface is established using the edges of the clay block fixture as index points. Essentially it's a frame filled with modeling clay. I've seen it said that modeling clay is not the best representation of a human body; ballistic gelatin may be superior. But modeling clay is the Holy Writ according to the NIJ. 
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Bill, thanks for that! I have used that fixture in the past when I was feeling like getting detailed information, but I used Dux Seal instead, which is a much better medium than #2 Roma Plastilina modeling clay. Funny, and true story of why it was chosen:
It was not the ultimate material scientifically. It was not that the properties mirrored human flesh precisely. It was....wait for it.... because one of the authors of the NIJ standards had to come up with something that morning, and grabbed his kids modeling clay off the table!! :D Always gives me a chuckle when I think of it. Dux Seal should still be available at Home DePoo, not too expensive. |
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DR.
This thread has brought me from lurking status to posting! I have been looking into soft concealable body armor for some time now. The information you are offering is great and prob saved me a bad purchase. Do you have a recommendation for concealable level llla armor that is woven keeping in mind that I won't be wearing for work, more just incase so I don't want to spend a fortune. Woven seems to be what you believe the most in I think. Thanks. |
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Originally Posted By Deer_huntn:
DR. This thread has brought me from lurking status to posting! I have been looking into soft concealable body armor for some time now. The information you are offering is great and prob saved me a bad purchase. Do you have a recommendation for concealable level llla armor that is woven keeping in mind that I won't be wearing for work, more just incase so I don't want to spend a fortune. Woven seems to be what you believe the most in I think. Thanks. I picked up a set from PPI , (their Python model) and it has worked out well. All Twaron, custom fitted, ran me about $480ish as I recall. It's kinda heavy, but the fit was good enough that the weight wasn't as noticeable. They were easy to deal with... |
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Originally Posted By Benjamin-Linus:
Originally Posted By D-R:
Benjamin....unless you got the 100% woven Aramid, you got a laminate. Gold Flex and Gold Shield are both laminates, and have all the problems mentioned above. I just checked, and the way they have it laid out, it would be easy to assume all their vests are woven P-Aramid. I do not recommend buying soft armor from them, as they still market and sell vests made with inferior materials. See if they will take it back, as you were lead to believe they were selling only wovens. Laminates are also a bad choice in cold climates, as they hold in sweat from winter clothes, and can crack and delaminate faster in colder environments. See if they will swap you for the 100% woven vest, and if they don't just cancel the transaction. It was good that you did the research, but some places use confusing marketing, because they are trying to move vests with crap materials in a market where more and more people are catching on. PM me if you would like. D-R Whoa, I fail. I guess I'll be canceling my order with them as I was indeed lead to believe I was purchasing a 100% woven p-aramid vest. ETA: my fault, I should have asked them specifically. I assumed all their vests sold on that page were 100% woven p-aramid.Now that I read their website closely it seems obvious. I sent them an e-mail asking to swap the order. They have a good reputation so I am hopeful they will swap the order without difficulty. Just an update in case anyone is curious, bulletproofme.com got right back to me after thanksgiving but they had already shipped my vest. They offered to exchange it without any complaint but said I would have to pay shipping. I think that is fair. They recommended I try the vest on to check the fit before sending it back. So today when it arrived I tried it on and it fit great. It was custom built to my measurements. The construction seemed really good and durable, though, I have nothing to compare it to. It surprised me how not flexible it turned out to be. One of the selling points of gold-flex is its flexibility, but I just didn't see it at all. Maybe compared to other materials it is more flexible, but slightly more flexible than a barrel doesn't make any difference to me. Maybe it would break in with enough wear? One thing I did like about the gold-flex is that it is thin. Bulletproofme.com specs this vest at 5.6mm thick (compared to 7.5mm for their 100% woven premium aramid). I wouldn't exactly call it super concealable, but with a light jacket it hid pretty well. So by swapping to the premium aramid I am going from 5.6mm to 7.5mm thickness which has me a bit sad. In any case, I want the protection and longevity of a 100% woven aramid vest so I will be swapping it. |
"How many times do I have to tell you, John? I always have a plan."
| Benjamin- When I worked with Goldflex eons ago, I was underwhelmed by the flexibility. I felt, if anything, the laminates are *less* flexible, by a fair margin, than the wovens. Take a thin piece of plastic- fold it around, and notice that it cannot compress, it bends. Same with Goldflex- it just bends, and cannot flex at all. And the extra 2mm is worth it, especially since extra thickness means extra backface deformation protection. Believe me, after you wear the woven vest for a while, you will be glad you did- Goldflex does NOT breathe at all, so after shift, you look like you were in a sauna. Woven Kevlar can breathe, so much less problem with perspiration. |
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Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By shotdown:
[ Any updates? I'm interested since I wanted to buy some for the cummerbund on my Eagle Plate Carrier. Still waiting on a reply. I got this response today: "They are woven soft armor and VS puts a waterproofing type coating on them" Looks like it should be good to go. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
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Altair- That is great news, the panels are GTG.
Care of woven Kevlar- Since this has come up a lot, here are my recommendations: The enemies of woven Kevlar are two- sun exposure (strong, chronic exposure to UV light) and bacteria/fungus. The best way to protect against the former is don't go sunning in your bare armor panels. Keep them inside the carrier, or at the very least in their protective fabric outer sheath. For the latter, every once in a while, soak the armor panels in a weak solution of baking soda. This will kill the fungus, and neutralize any acids produced by sweat eating bacteria. You can then follow up with a very mild dish soap solution, then rinse again and let dry. This will keep your armor practically immortal. DO NOT put your armor in the dryer, and DO NOT use harsh chemical cleaners on it. Just baking soda and a little dish/bar soap is all you need. HTH D-R |
| The DEA protocol requires 3 contact shots in plus 8 others at distance in various areas of the same panel. They also do a heat test, a cold test and submersion test. What are your thoughts on ABA BR01? It is Gold Shield but is listed as passing the DEA and other threat rounds as well. Ballistic gelatin isn't used as the indentation cannot be easily measured. Thanks for all your thought and research provoking info! |
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Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By shotdown:
[ Any updates? I'm interested since I wanted to buy some for the cummerbund on my Eagle Plate Carrier. Still waiting on a reply. I got this response today: "They are woven soft armor and VS puts a waterproofing type coating on them" Looks like it should be good to go. Awesome. Thanks for the info. |
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Originally Posted By D-R:
Kar15- I would find a plate carrier FIRST and then fill it, rather than getting armor and then trying to find a carrier to fit. It depends on what you are looking for. Having this conversation with another gent right now about wanting something a little more low-vis: DBT made (don't know if they still have it) a good low-vis plate carrier that could handle 10X12 and 8X10 plates, as well as soft armor. TAG also makes a Slick plate carrier that can be more easily worn under clothing. Both are a good bet, as they can handle just soft armor or soft armor and plates. Just remember that if you are talking aluminum oxide plates, you have to be careful of breakage. I like the Armored Mobility plates (all three are GTG actually) because they are robust, and cover the range of threats/weights. I would seriously consider just going with AMI, there is no reason at this juncture (unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED level IV protection) to go with anyone else. Let me know on the spall guards, as I have some material that works well, and is not expensive. Altair- Those are the current best overall plates IMHO. You get extreme multi-hit level III against most conceivable threats. And no, it can say 100% Kevlar and be Goldflex or Goldshield (both laminates). It should say 100% WOVEN Kevlar. I looked at those panels, and I think you should be ok, as they are heat sealed to keep water out. Woven Kevlar loses 40% effectiveness when wet, but recovers completely when dry, so a lot of companies heat seal them. I am torn on the practice, as if you get even a pinhole in the sealing fabric, they take forever to dry. Call the company to verify. If moisture uptake is a performance issue, has the protective vest industry tried packaging their woven plates within a "sufficiently" thick Gore-Tex pouch material and then heat sealing the pouch closed? They could also further tape and seal the seams for secondary seal protection. It would be interesting to see if the Gore-Tex would allow the protective pouch and its plate contents to sufficiently "breath" at an acceptable rate to stay "effectively" dry. |
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Originally Posted By SailMeister:
Originally Posted By D-R:
Kar15- I would find a plate carrier FIRST and then fill it, rather than getting armor and then trying to find a carrier to fit. It depends on what you are looking for. Having this conversation with another gent right now about wanting something a little more low-vis: DBT made (don't know if they still have it) a good low-vis plate carrier that could handle 10X12 and 8X10 plates, as well as soft armor. TAG also makes a Slick plate carrier that can be more easily worn under clothing. Both are a good bet, as they can handle just soft armor or soft armor and plates. Just remember that if you are talking aluminum oxide plates, you have to be careful of breakage. I like the Armored Mobility plates (all three are GTG actually) because they are robust, and cover the range of threats/weights. I would seriously consider just going with AMI, there is no reason at this juncture (unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED level IV protection) to go with anyone else. Let me know on the spall guards, as I have some material that works well, and is not expensive. Altair- Those are the current best overall plates IMHO. You get extreme multi-hit level III against most conceivable threats. And no, it can say 100% Kevlar and be Goldflex or Goldshield (both laminates). It should say 100% WOVEN Kevlar. I looked at those panels, and I think you should be ok, as they are heat sealed to keep water out. Woven Kevlar loses 40% effectiveness when wet, but recovers completely when dry, so a lot of companies heat seal them. I am torn on the practice, as if you get even a pinhole in the sealing fabric, they take forever to dry. Call the company to verify. If moisture uptake is a performance issue, has the protective vest industry tried packaging their woven plates within a "sufficiently" thick Gore-Tex pouch material and then heat sealing the pouch closed? They could also further tape and seal the seams for secondary seal protection. It would be interesting to see if the Gore-Tex would allow the protective pouch and its plate contents to sufficiently "breath" at an acceptable rate to stay "effectively" dry. I thought the same thing, so I went and looked at my armor. The Eagle scalable plate carrier has a 'coating' inside where the armor is inserted. It resembles the waterproofing used on old backpack. I get the impression that the manufacturer tried to put in a seal to keep sweat from getting to the armor, both the soft and hard armor. |
| My issue vest is a PACA and I asked them what the vest was made of and whether it was rated for contact shots. The reply said it was a hybrid of Goldflex UD, Artec Woven, and Dyneema UD. They also said it was tested against contact shots with a .45 ACP. I asked if it was rated for 9mm and still haven't gotten a reply but I wonder if they test for .45 because it is the least likely to penetrate. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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ALRX- I have been trying to get a copy of the DEA test protocol, and have not yet. I like the fact that they take contact shots into account, but I do *NOT* like the fact that there is no BFD measurement. That part sounds a bit fishy to me, as you should always be able to pull the vest off the clay backing, stick the test tool in the gap, and note if it leaves an indent (pass) or not (fail).
Eta: Just noticed the words "ballistic gelatin." This is not used in body armor testing unless they are expecting rounds to penetrate. Roma Plastilina #1 clay is used, as it semi-permanently deforms, allowing a BFD measurement. Ballistic gelatin WOULD be hard to measure, as it is highly elastic, and will flow back into shape almost immediately. Did they say ballistic gelatin in the test protocols? If so, even fishier... Re: the ABA vest- even if it passed the contact shot test, I would still nix it due to the other problems with this laminate. It is not comfortable, and delaminates, requiring a vest changeout within 2-3 years or so. The thinness, which seems to be its only claim to fame, is not worth the extra hassle/weakness. I would go with an all woven vest and sleep very well at night. And again, not measuring the BFD seems to be a flaw in an otherwise better testing protocol. My pleasure, and glad you got some info out of it! :D Vintovka- My pleasure! :) Sailmeister- Gortex is used extensively in sealing body armor ballistic packages. I think it offers decent UV and moisture protection, and does not need to be all that thick to provide this protection. Often there will be waterproofing on the ballistic fibers themselves, which works synergistically. USMC- Yep, most Cordura these days has a PU coating on the inside to protect against moisture. It will keep perspiration from getting too bad, but a full immersion will usually still cause some water issues. I think Cordura is a good compromise for soft armor, and use it myself. Altair- But did they answer the question? Which protocol was this tested under? .45 ACP is an easy stop, even with contact shots, and most vests laugh at it. I would want to know that the BFD was manageable if using laminates. 9mm is a much bigger contact shot threat. Please keep us appraised of their answer. |
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Originally Posted By D-R:
Altair- But did they answer the question? Which protocol was this tested under? .45 ACP is an easy stop, even with contact shots, and most vests laugh at it. I would want to know that the BFD was manageable if using laminates. 9mm is a much bigger contact shot threat. Please keep us appraised of their answer. The information I posted here was everything they gave me, which is limited at best. I suspect we didn't get a great set of armor but it was a bulk purchase by my agency when state law was changed requiring PD's to buy soft armor for all Officers. We'll have it until 2015, probably even if I find out and can prove it is inferior armor 
I will post anything I can find about it here unless it is restricted (like the actual FBI testing is). I will probably request the FBI data but I won't be able to share, they have a non-disclosure agreement that only allows me to share within the LE community. I don't know why, but if I sign it I will abide by it. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
| I apoligize for being less than clear, I'm not very organized on this web stuff..... My mention of gelatin was in response to another post. They (DEA) DO use clay for the testing and there are measurements of indentation specified. I'll check to see what they are and whether or not their protocol has been made public. I'll also get what calibers the contact shots are, one is the .40 165gr JHP for sure. |
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Altair- Roger that, whatever info you can share is great.
ALRX- Hey, no worries. I had a brain lapse and put Roma Plastilina #2 clay instead of #1...shows how tired I was. Please do share the protocol if you are able. .40 S&W is a fairly easy round to stop, but the muzzle blast is fairly significant, so that is a decent choice as a test round. 35mm- That budget should get you a decent set of armor. I would probably go with a used vest, woven aramid. I can recommend some, PM me. |
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Originally Posted By Prime: Thanks OP, great thread. It's good to know that my soft armor is crap. Note to self- avoid contact shots. Knowledge is power. Go JOE!!!  |
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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OP:
After reading this thread its obvious you recommend just woven armor. However sometimes we dance with who we brought. I've got a Twaron vest made from laminate and woven materials. It's made by Armor Express and I'd like your opinion on it. While you've recommended sticking to strictly woven fiber, is the combo types like I have just at risk of delamination or is there more going on there? I haven't been able to find info on how this vest would handle contact shots and obviously I'm curious. The vest I have is their Quantum series level 3a. |
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Originally Posted By D-R:
Altair- Roger that, whatever info you can share is great. ALRX- Hey, no worries. I had a brain lapse and put Roma Plastilina #2 clay instead of #1...shows how tired I was. Please do share the protocol if you are able. .40 S&W is a fairly easy round to stop, but the muzzle blast is fairly significant, so that is a decent choice as a test round. 35mm- That budget should get you a decent set of armor. I would probably go with a used vest, woven aramid. I can recommend some, PM me. Test rounds were 9mm 124 FMJ, .40 S&W 165 JHP and 9mm 127 +P+ from Glock 17/22. Contact rounds were at least 2" and no more than 3" from each other. These are rounds 9-11 on one test panel. The clay is in accordance with NIJ 0101.06. I believe the complete protocol is available to manufacturers who wish to submit products. I must say I feel much better knowing my armor passed this protocol as opposed to merely the NIJ. Vests passing the DEA protocol are fairly proud of the fact. |
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Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. |
Body Armor: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Page 2 of 4)
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