Body Armor: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Page 3 of 4)
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Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. OK, that's kind of what I've been taking away too. I don't really want body armor, can't really see a use for it off-duty, but for $50, why not. I'll take a couple of broke ribs over a broken lung. But, as you point out, since they're not rated, it's a crap shoot if you buy one that's still in working order. |
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Originally Posted By NotIssued:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. OK, that's kind of what I've been taking away too. I don't really want body armor, can't really see a use for it off-duty, but for $50, why not. Are you a LEO? If so, why wouldn't you wear armor off duty? I would think that running into a criminal I helped put away would be a worry...if you aren't, then nevermind. 
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| NotIssued- I have tested those old PASGT vests, and they are really crappy: horrible ergs, inability to upgrade the armor, and a ballistic package that is optimized for frag, not bullets. Having said that, if you can ONLY afford $50 for armor, it IS better than nothing. But twice that can get you some bona fide ballistic panels that you can then make your own concealable vest with. |
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Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. OK, that's kind of what I've been taking away too. I don't really want body armor, can't really see a use for it off-duty, but for $50, why not. Are you a LEO? If so, why wouldn't you wear armor off duty? I would think that running into a criminal I helped put away would be a worry...if you aren't, then nevermind.
I've never known a cop to wear body armor off duty and if one of my partners started to I would be a little concerned about their emotional well being. Yes, running into someone you've dealt with on duty while off duty is a concern and a big reason why it is foolish not to carry a weapon off duty, but body armor is just too much. Being a cop comes with some risks and that is one of them but you have to not be a cop when you're off duty or you will lose your mind. I believe in being prepared and I always have a weapon as well as a plan of action for my family in the event something goes down while I'm not at work, but that argument could be made for carrying every single piece of equipment I carry on duty while I'm not at work. You have to draw the line somewhere. Body armor is for known high risk situations, not every day use in my opinion. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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No, I'm military, not LE. Thanks for the concern. My daily job is very low risk.
This would be a "holy crap the world just fell in" type of idea. I've been eyeballing those PAGST since they came out in the 90s ... just never felt the urge to delve too much into them. Plus, I figure if I'm gonna get a set, then I should probably have a set for my wife. Or, lets face it, if my wife is wearing my set, then I should probably have a second set for me 
Thanks guys - saved me a few bucks. |
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Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. OK, that's kind of what I've been taking away too. I don't really want body armor, can't really see a use for it off-duty, but for $50, why not. Are you a LEO? If so, why wouldn't you wear armor off duty? I would think that running into a criminal I helped put away would be a worry...if you aren't, then nevermind.
I've never known a cop to wear body armor off duty and if one of my partners started to I would be a little concerned about their emotional well being. Yes, running into someone you've dealt with on duty while off duty is a concern and a big reason why it is foolish not to carry a weapon off duty, but body armor is just too much. Being a cop comes with some risks and that is one of them but you have to not be a cop when you're off duty or you will lose your mind. I believe in being prepared and I always have a weapon as well as a plan of action for my family in the event something goes down while I'm not at work, but that argument could be made for carrying every single piece of equipment I carry on duty while I'm not at work. You have to draw the line somewhere. Body armor is for known high risk situations, not every day use in my opinion. Okay, thanks for the insight. Being as I don't know any LEOs, this wasn't evident.
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Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. OK, that's kind of what I've been taking away too. I don't really want body armor, can't really see a use for it off-duty, but for $50, why not. Are you a LEO? If so, why wouldn't you wear armor off duty? I would think that running into a criminal I helped put away would be a worry...if you aren't, then nevermind.
I've never known a cop to wear body armor off duty and if one of my partners started to I would be a little concerned about their emotional well being. Yes, running into someone you've dealt with on duty while off duty is a concern and a big reason why it is foolish not to carry a weapon off duty, but body armor is just too much. Being a cop comes with some risks and that is one of them but you have to not be a cop when you're off duty or you will lose your mind. I believe in being prepared and I always have a weapon as well as a plan of action for my family in the event something goes down while I'm not at work, but that argument could be made for carrying every single piece of equipment I carry on duty while I'm not at work. You have to draw the line somewhere. Body armor is for known high risk situations, not every day use in my opinion. Awhile back, CTD had some german flaks that were pretty sketchy for $30 each IIRC. I bought a couple and tested some of the panels out of them, most of which were labeled aramid corp or something similar and dated from 1988-1995. It was just layers of woven fiber that I assumed to be kevlar and stopped 4x HP .357mag, 2x .45 soft tip, and 2x out of 4x fmj 9mm. I was rather impressed. I just looked and couldn't find them on CTD's website though 
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Thanks to a broke-leg, buckwild SGT of Marines for the membership.
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Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
Originally Posted By billclo:
Originally Posted By NotIssued:
So getting one of those surplus, $50 woodland pattern "flak vests" would be a worthwhile investment, that actually would help w/ pistol calibers? Assuming of course that they're woven kevlar. As I recall reading here before, while those vests may stop pistol rounds, they can't be depended upon to (they have no NIJ rating after all), and the backface deformation (bulge in your tissue from the vest deforming) may be unacceptably deep. Better than nothing at all, but I'd save up for something better personally. OK, that's kind of what I've been taking away too. I don't really want body armor, can't really see a use for it off-duty, but for $50, why not. Are you a LEO? If so, why wouldn't you wear armor off duty? I would think that running into a criminal I helped put away would be a worry...if you aren't, then nevermind.
I've never known a cop to wear body armor off duty and if one of my partners started to I would be a little concerned about their emotional well being. Yes, running into someone you've dealt with on duty while off duty is a concern and a big reason why it is foolish not to carry a weapon off duty, but body armor is just too much. Being a cop comes with some risks and that is one of them but you have to not be a cop when you're off duty or you will lose your mind. I believe in being prepared and I always have a weapon as well as a plan of action for my family in the event something goes down while I'm not at work, but that argument could be made for carrying every single piece of equipment I carry on duty while I'm not at work. You have to draw the line somewhere. Body armor is for known high risk situations, not every day use in my opinion. Okay, thanks for the insight. Being as I don't know any LEOs, this wasn't evident.
I just re-read my response and it sounded harsher than I meant it to. To be clear, I wasn't trying to call you out on the idea, I was just pointing out that it isn't common practice and why. One of the dangerous things for a guy's mental well being as an LEO is not being able to separate home life from the job. Sadly, some guys take their work home with them and it destroys marriages, parent/child relationships, and friendships with non-LEO's. That is the type of danger I was talking about when I said I would be concerned for their emotional well being. Keep in mind I'm not talking about guys talking about work at home. In fact, I think the attitude of shielding your family from the horrible things we see on duty is a recipe for disaster. I tell my wife everything. I mean treating your family like you are dealing with a call rather than treating them like family. It happens more than people outside the lifestyle would think. Sorry for the side track. To get back on the issue of body armor, regardless of the mental aspect wearing body armor on duty is a pain in the ass so wearing it 24/7 would be unbearable, especially in the summer. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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MotherDearest- THOSE were great vests, and the price was awesome. They tested to approximately level II equivalent (the woven Kevlar was much smaller denier than the PASGT). They had the German DPM camo pattern carriers. Unfortunately, a widely read test duplicated what you found, and they were quickly snapped up. If you can find them these days, they run $150 to $180...I still kick myself for not getting more, as they make great "loaner" armor for range use, etc.
Altair- Makes sense what you said. Would be nice if there was armor that was wearable 24/7, but the whole taking your job home (Esp. LEO) is not healthy, as you say. |
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Originally Posted By D-R:
MotherDearest- THOSE were great vests, and the price was awesome. They tested to approximately level II equivalent (the woven Kevlar was much smaller denier than the PASGT). They had the German DPM camo pattern carriers. Unfortunately, a widely read test duplicated what you found, and they were quickly snapped up. If you can find them these days, they run $150 to $180...I still kick myself for not getting more, as they make great "loaner" armor for range use, etc. Altair- Makes sense what you said. Would be nice if there was armor that was wearable 24/7, but the whole taking your job home (Esp. LEO) is not healthy, as you say. Any comments on older IBA vests? I picked up an '03 point blank made unit a while back that looked like new in every way, and all the info I find online of people shooting these older panels comes out with them stopping all common handgun threats. I tried to get point blank to confirm what materials were used in its construction, but the only answer I could get was "not zylon." |
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Originally Posted By D-R:
MotherDearest- THOSE were great vests, and the price was awesome. They tested to approximately level II equivalent (the woven Kevlar was much smaller denier than the PASGT). They had the German DPM camo pattern carriers. Unfortunately, a widely read test duplicated what you found, and they were quickly snapped up. If you can find them these days, they run $150 to $180...I still kick myself for not getting more, as they make great "loaner" armor for range use, etc. I actually use one of these vests for paintball, butter than wasting a decent vest to train in. |
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I need some help. I bought a set of plates and carrier at a gun show. The carrier is a Condor. That was easy. The plates are marked
NIJ Level IIIA . TRAUMA-PLUS Flat- 10x12x9/16 Stand Alone They are made by Protection Development International Corp. I called the PH. number but it is disconnected. Googling yields nothing. I know they won't stop a rifle round. I don't know if they are ceramic or aluminum but they look like the outside layer is woven Kevlar and weigh about 4 pounds. Any help is appreciated. |
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Originally Posted By 545ak: I need some help. I bought a set of plates and carrier at a gun show. The carrier is a Condor. That was easy. The plates are marked NIJ Level IIIA . TRAUMA-PLUS Flat- 10x12x9/16 Stand Alone They are made by Protection Development International Corp. I called the PH. number but it is disconnected. Googling yields nothing. I know they won't stop a rifle round. I don't know if they are ceramic or aluminum but they look like the outside layer is woven Kevlar and weigh about 4 pounds. Any help is appreciated. Level IIIA (3A) are NOT rifle-resistant. 3A is pistol/shotgun only. Level 3 and Level 4 are rifle plates. |
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
 Bought at a yard sale a few years ago, look to be in perfect shape, carrier doesn't even have any sweat stains. A quick google comes up with this link, http://www.allamericanprotection.com/armor1.htm which resembles my setup. Thoughts? I currently just use it as a public range vest, and a OMGWTFwasthatnoiseinmyhouseohitsthewind vest. Thanks for a great thread and great info. |
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545AK- As mentioned, the IIIA rating is pistol shotgun only. Having said that, I *like* rigid plates, even those not rated for rifles, as they make dandy armor against things like bats, rocks, fists, and knives. The plates you mention are steel (they should have a curve in the upper third, more like a bend, and are covered with woven Kevlar of large weave), and are not a bad thing to have one hand. You can upgrade to Titanium at some point, as this material is much lighter and non-corrodable.
Geologist- At first blush, that looks like a decent vest. Says made with Kevlar- only thing you want to be sure of is that it is *woven* Kevlar, as Goldflex and Goldshield are both made with Kevlar. If you can pull the inner panels (the ballistic package), see how the material inside feels- if it is slick and "bendy" rather than fabric textured, it is probably a laminate. If it feels and looks like woven fabric stacked and stitched, it is woven Kevlar. Let me know when you can, and you are most welcome for the info. |
| The information about getting 100% woven p armaids is very interesting. Anybody know what vests are out that meet that criteria and you can get ahold of easy? I looked for the US armor enforcer classic but didn't find any places that had 'em that I was familiar with. Anybody have any idea if the US palm soft armor that sgcusa is selling is any good? |
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Originally Posted By E__WOK:
Do civilians really need a vest that protects against contact shots? While non-LEO civilians are certainly less likely to need a vest that protects against contact shots than those employed as LEO's, they are also less likely to need body armor at all. If you think having body armor is worth the cost, why wouldn't you want it to protect against contact shots? |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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E-Wok: Do civilians really need:
Firearms? Knives? Cars that go more than 45 MPH? Motorcycle helmets? Etc.? Need is not the same as want and can have...;) If you want something, and can afford it, you should be able to have it. Need is irrelevant. Assesments made when considering armor vary from person to person. I would argue that civilians, if they *need* ;) armor in the first place, actually have greater justification for contact shot rated armor, as most self defense scenarios take place at much closer ranges (including contact ranges). But my way of thinking is thus: if you are wearing something for protection, why not make sure it protects over the greatest range of circumstances? Only you can answer your question. |
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Originally Posted By Altair: Are the plates your speak of their TAC3S plates? I just took delivery on a pair last week. Also, if something is 100% Kevlar does that mean it is woven or can Kevlar be laminate? I'm looking at these for side armor to go with the TAC3S plates. Altair, Ever get ananswer from SKDTac or velocity in regards to whether the soft armor you were considering listed as 100% Kevlar was wovenor laminate? |
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Originally Posted By ChrisLe:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Are the plates your speak of their TAC3S plates? I just took delivery on a pair last week. Also, if something is 100% Kevlar does that mean it is woven or can Kevlar be laminate? I'm looking at these for side armor to go with the TAC3S plates. Altair, Ever get ananswer from SKDTac or velocity in regards to whether the soft armor you were considering listed as 100% Kevlar was wovenor laminate? Yes, it is on page 4. Their reply was "They are woven soft armor and VS puts a waterproofing type coating on them" Also if anyone was wanting to know about the PACA soft armor I asked about, they replied promptly when asked about contact shots and told me they were rated to stop .45ACP. I replied asking about 9mm and didn't get an answer. It would seem they don't want to answer that question which leads me to conclude that either the vest wasn't tested against 9mm contact shots or, more likely, it won't stop them and the company doesn't want to say that. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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New (?) posting on Century.  Anyone know anything about it? Paper catalog has it listed for $49.87. |
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Originally Posted By nvgeologist:
New (?) posting on Century.
Anyone know anything about it? Paper catalog has it listed for $49.87.
Well, right under the photo is: "Novelty Item Only! NOT A FUNCTIONAL BALLISTIC VEST!" |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Originally Posted By D-R:
545AK, those are one of the three plates I currently recommend. Alumina monolithic plates over compressed Dyneema. If you understand their limitations and drawbacks, they are a decent choice for that price. What are their limitations and drawbacks, just the careful handling needed? They list them as III+ multi-hit rated for M855, similar to my RBR steel plates. Given their listed weight at 5.2lbs per plate I could have soft panels behind them and still have less weight than my RBR steel at 7.5lbs per plate. |
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| D-R what is your opinion on this stuff and the body armor associated with it? I saw some of this armor at an area surplus store. Link is for stuff that hangs off of main armor. Sorry for my poor verbage. |
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What about this armor?
ABA xhp-iiia body armor Any comments or opinions? I'll more info later, but it may be this. http://www.americanbodyarmor.com/EcommerceProduct.aspx?ProductID=8&ProductCategoryID=1 |
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Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Anyone heard of this Any thing dyneema = BAD. It may be lighter and thinner, but it doesnt breathe at all (woven Kevlar does) meaning it gets HOT! Also, exposure to temps could potentially cause it to fail. You are far better off sticking to WOVEN Kevlar |
Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
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| Where can I even find old fashioned woven kevlar vests anymore? Everything I see for sale uses other fibers. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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| I just posted or videos of an unscientific plate shoot . |
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Harris Co., Texas
281.451.4175
[email protected]
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Originally Posted By SC-Texas: That is the problem. Try finding Kevlar only panels. I paid for all-kevlar 3A panels from Easi-Corp Armor, twice. I did not get what I paid for.  |
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
