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Posted: 6/11/2017 8:34:52 AM EDT
Ideally something that can shoot both .22LR and .22WMR.
Link Posted: 6/11/2017 8:52:41 AM EDT




Link Posted: 6/11/2017 9:00:22 AM EDT
Revolvers are reliable until they have an issue. Almost any issue requires Smith work
Link Posted: 6/11/2017 11:40:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2017 11:41:39 AM EDT by MarkHatfield]
Those two cartridges are not the same bullet diameter, close, but not the same.  For best results, get one or the other.  I would chose a rifle in 22 or 22 mag. if carry and concealment was not a concern.  Long ago I wrote an article about this for LooseRounds.com.  Skeeter Skelton felt similarly.
Link Posted: 6/11/2017 1:29:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2017 1:38:19 PM EDT by ferfal308]
No. great utility gun but not the best survival gun in my opinion.
The best survival gun is a Glock 9mm. 17 or 19.
Everyone should have a 22LR revolver, but anything a 22 revolver can do a 22 carbine can do better... except be carried concealed. But then again thats why the glock is the best survival gun.
Link Posted: 6/11/2017 5:45:39 PM EDT
I have a smith 317 kit gun.  I would absolutely never trust my life to it.  It is finicky with what type of ammo it likes to eject, and the double action trigger sucks.  I would trust my ruger Mkiii hunter or sr22 over it.
Link Posted: 6/11/2017 8:30:49 PM EDT
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
Link Posted: 6/11/2017 10:51:34 PM EDT
.22 revolvers are nice, but I have found them difficult to hit with when cold, tired, and hungry.
I like a little more margin for error in desperate situations, so go with a single shot 12 gauge shotgun.
Simple to operate maintain and repair, plentiful effective versatile caliber, compact, low price, durable.
Link Posted: 6/15/2017 11:50:49 PM EDT
Best survival gun is a .22.  Over a 20ga barrel.
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 7:11:04 AM EDT
Not even close....

I have a late 1950's vintage field and Stream magazine around here.  Its definitely Cold War, The-Russians-Are-Coming, duck and cover era.  In it is an article that claims the 22 revolver is the best option for a survival weapon, mostly on the premise it can be used for small game...

It's all horseshit.  Small game virtually evaporates when SHTF.  I know it did around here during the 1930's.  And if you do see a now very rare bunny or squirrel, do you really want to try to pot it with a pistol?  Seriously?

I've taken a woodchuck cleanly with a headshot out of a Ruger MKII at 50 yards.  It was luck, not skill.  On most days, that's more of a 20 yard gun.  Nope, a .22 handgun is NOT a great game getter at most reasonable ranges...  I do like .22 handguns for their weight (lack of it) and for the compact, inexpensive and easy to carry nature of the ammo.  That's about it.

If I have to positively anchor a small game animal, I want a .22 rifle.  While long shots are a joke with a handgun, I can regularly nail just about anything to an honest 75 yards with good rifle.  Its a whole other world....

And 22 Magnum?  Um, No.  Yup the the 2 WMR is an impressive little cartridge when its fired out of a rifle.   It really isn't nearly so impressive out of a 4" barrel.  It's just louder and flashier.  If you red more power, then stepping from 22 LR to 22 WMR isn't doing much.  You'd be FAR better served moving up to something like 9mm, 40, 38, 45....

No.   The whole switch cylinder revolver with 22 and 22WMR cylinders is a nice concept but its one that really doesnt offer much.  And virtually all are single action revolvers.  So you have a big, heavy, slow to fire, slow to reload SA handgun, with marginal ballistics and marginal accuracy.  Again, no.  I'd happily take my daughter's little Savage Cub G single shot .22 rifle first...  Its about as slow as the SA revolver, but at least it shots accurately to far greater distances...
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 8:27:41 AM EDT
To each his own.

I agree with most here that a rimfire is tops to carry but a pretty big compromise in most any other measure.

Some argument can be made for a 357 or 44 revolver. More power for larger pests and has the ability to shoot shot cartridges . Yeah I know there are rimfire shot loads but they really are pretty much designed for mice or snake heads at 5 feet.

Still has the hard to hit with thing going against it.

Pistol caliber carbine with sling has lots going for it
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 8:30:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2017 8:35:37 AM EDT by rzrsedge]
If we're talking SHTF scenarios, I'd rather have a pistol or rifle that's easily suppressable, even if it's with an improvised suppressor. 22lr wouldn't be ideal for SD, but great for smaller game.
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 9:32:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
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My super Redhawk and plenty of pigs beg to differ.
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 9:55:27 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
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Revolver, especially a .22, is tough shooting. I carry one for snakes, but would hate to survive with one.
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 12:05:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MRTEX:
My super Redhawk and plenty of pigs beg to differ.
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Originally Posted By MRTEX:
Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
My super Redhawk and plenty of pigs beg to differ.
So....you and all your friends can hunt with pistols no problem? How about the general population? Do you see what I'm saying?
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 2:23:38 PM EDT
People have a notion of hunting to feed themselves in a massive SHTF and hence the ficticious need for a sub caliber gun. Not gonna happen. Not in any real and sustainable way.


The real need for a firearm is self defense. A concealable gun which allows it to be ever present is a big desirable.

So, quality pistol of decent capacity and power is in order.
Link Posted: 6/16/2017 8:20:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By llanero:
Best survival gun is a .22.  Over a 20ga barrel.
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I can go with that.  20 ga allows you to harvest bigger game.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 8:57:26 AM EDT
I've shot impala with a suppressed Norinco .22 pistol (copy of a Buckmark) at very close range, from a car. I would like to avoid doing that in the future! Most .22lr rounds are anemic from a pistol length barrel. I would not hesitate doing the same with a .22lr rifle and decent ammo, but if I'm going rifle, might as well go rifle caliber or at least PCC.
I also owned a .22/410 Over and Under at that point. I loved it and used the 410 with slugs on impala and a bushpig on one occasion. It wasn't great on the pig, but it knocked the impala down. DRT. If I had to guess (It's been the better part of almost 3 decades ago), I'd say the impala was around 125lbs or so and the distance was about 80 paces.
A friend dropped a bushbuck of almost 200lbs with a BRNO .22lr rifle at well past 100 meters. Perfect shot behind the ear. He was also in the National shooting team, so he knew what he was doing.

Anyways, a .22lr pistol will be great for harvesting squirrels, rabbits and birds. I'd prefer a decent sling shot at that point for harvesting small game and a decent handgun/ rifle for SD and larger game if the opportunity presents itself. There won't be a lot of game around once people start going hungry - saw it with my own eyes in Zimbabwe, Mozambique and on our farm (close to the Zimbabwe border). Massive amount of poaching.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 12:06:09 PM EDT
I wouldn't rely on a revolver in 22lr for a survival gun. a all metal ruger MKII in my eyes would be alot more reliable, and it can be suppressed if you had it threaded.

for a survival revolver I would want a 3" gp100 with rear adjustable sights in .357 with the small grip, it is concealable, packs enough punch for SD and hunting. you can download 38 spl rounds to be quiet and forage small game cleanly with minimal meat loss.

Now that i've ventured into the NFA world. I would one day like to build a pdw similar to a HK mp7 topped with a rmr but in the fn 5.7 cartridge keeping the locking bolt design. this in my eyes would be the ultimate survival weapon.

it's something that isn't overly heavy, can be kept out of the way when not in use. ammo isn't too heavy and you can pack quite a bit in a small place. you could carry subsonic rounds and a suppressor for small game foraging then with supersonic rounds you could harvest deer sized game with carefully placed shots. and go forbid if you had to defend yourself you have capabilities of fast aimed shots that can defeat soft body armor.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 3:38:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
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Link Posted: 6/18/2017 3:52:32 PM EDT
Personally when it comes to .22 handguns, I will take a suppressed semi auto every time over a revolver, and I love revolvers. Having a quiet gun is a very big advantage. Plus as far as handguns go, if you are a well practiced shot and experienced hunter, lots of thing are possible.

BTW,

Neither the Buffalo or the Antelope were shot with anything but my camera that day,and they never knew how close they were to meeting Mr. 44 Magnum. I was simply counting coup. Plus sneaking up on a full grown and wide awake Buck Antelope to within handgun range is a real challenge.


Coyote got hit with suppressed 22 in the back of his head as he tried to slink away.








Link Posted: 6/18/2017 4:16:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lost_River:

Personally when it comes to .22 handguns, I will take a suppressed semi auto every time over a revolver, and I love revolvers. Having a quiet gun is a very big advantage. Plus as far as handguns go, if you are a well practiced shot and experienced hunter, lots of thing are possible.
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As you can clearly see, Lost_River has just a little experience to prove his point  

You start throwing out the word "survival", it carries a wide spectrum of opinions.  We are definitely not talking sport-hunting; you are shooting fowl on the ground, dispatching snared medium/large game, and killing anything edible...which is most likely small game.  22LR is a very effective cartridge for those parameters and with accurate shot placement, less destructive to meat.  I need to eventually suppress my "ideal" survival firearm, my Ruger 22/45 LITE.  With a RDS, it's extremely accurate out to 25-30 yards; add a suppressor and you can harvest tree rats, raccoons, or other small rodents with very little signature.  

I too own a S&W 317 Kit Gun (3" barrel).  It's light and the SA trigger is excellent, but the DA trigger is just terrible.  The cylinder is also very "sticky" with all cartridges and extraction is a PITA.  

ROCK6
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 7:07:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Jackrabbits/125-1.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/G19Badger.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Jackrabbits/dec2006232-1.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Elk%20hunts/P1000384_zps06f31ec1.jpg
You figure that's typical? You think more than 0.001% can hit jack shit with a pistol?
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 10:59:53 PM EDT
You missed the point entirely.

I know a bunch of people who can shoot a handgun quite well. Same with rifles.

Making broad sweeping generalizations about what people can and cannot do is a very good way to get proven wrong. It is pretty typical on survival forums where guys say "all the game will be gone in days/weeks and everyone will starve!".

The very vast majority of the people saying those things are absolutely clueless about anything beyond their own local area.

I have a cabin in a very remote location where people are very rare and there are considerably more elk, deer and antelope than there are people. The odds of running out of small game, let alone large game for a person who knows the back country, and has been hunting it for 30 plus years is pretty slim.


Today we live in a super mobile society and I have run across trappers cabins in the wilderness areas that don't look like they have been disturbed since the early 1900s.

Theory versus reality.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 5:32:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
You missed the point entirely.

I know a bunch of people who can shoot a handgun quite well. Same with rifles.

Making broad sweeping generalizations about what people can and cannot do is a very good way to get proven wrong. It is pretty typical on survival forums where guys say "all the game will be gone in days/weeks and everyone will starve!".

The very vast majority of the people saying those things are absolutely clueless about anything beyond their own local area.

Theory versus reality.
View Quote
Other considerations (and I know this has been fully discussed in another dedicated thread) is that most hunting areas are pretty well controlled and managed; very much, an artificial setting.  Game management at the macro-level is actually quite good in the US, whereas it's pretty clear hunting is on the decline in several locations.  Some areas are likely to get hunted out quickly, others will still be quite fertile.  Game will move on to safer pastures where most people will remain.  Hunting skills are also lacking across the board and those that are infrequent hunters will likely fail to fill the larder.  Post SHTF, the main "predator" will be man.  It won't be long before nature balances itself.

I would have to agree that we do have swaths of land that rarely gets hunted.  Game management is mostly at the mercy (and likely benefit) of mother nature.  Sure, the heavily populated areas will likely drive out most game, but to conclude all areas will be affected is not entirely likely.  I would even hypothesize that after a major (national-level) catastrophe with a significant mortality rate to the human population, we would likely see a spike and upsurge of scavenger type animal populations.  Raccoons, possum, wild hogs, etc.  There are numerous factors that would impact your local wild game populations, but those are mostly attributed to the type of culture, population density, geographical location, and natural resources.

ROCK6
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 9:14:42 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
You missed the point entirely.

I know a bunch of people who can shoot a handgun quite well. Same with rifles.

Making broad sweeping generalizations about what people can and cannot do is a very good way to get proven wrong. It is pretty typical on survival forums where guys say "all the game will be gone in days/weeks and everyone will starve!".

The very vast majority of the people saying those things are absolutely clueless about anything beyond their own local area.

I have a cabin in a very remote location where people are very rare and there are considerably more elk, deer and antelope than there are people. The odds of running out of small game, let alone large game for a person who knows the back country, and has been hunting it for 30 plus years is pretty slim.


Today we live in a super mobile society and I have run across trappers cabins in the wilderness areas that don't look like they have been disturbed since the early 1900s.

Theory versus reality.
View Quote
You are the one missing the point. Put your pistol in the hands of 100 average survivalist and how many of them do you think can hunt with your handgun? I would wager that it might be 2 in 100. I don't know many people who can hit a paper plate at 50 yards consistently with a pistol.

I shoot competition and I know for sure I can hit a 4" circle at 50 yards off hand with a red dot equipped 22 pistol. I know a few other competitors who can but I know many who cannot.

This is my experience shooting small targets out in the woods for the last 6 years. This is not a sweeping generalization because I never said that no one can do it. I simply said that most people who think they can cannot. Prove me wrong. You might have had a point if 50/100 were that proficient with a pistol.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 10:47:42 AM EDT
So, what is the correlation is between competition shooting and a conversation about the best choice for a survival gun as it relates to hunting?


Please feel free to post up some of your hunting pics, or are you working off of theory?


Like a great many things, hunting is a skill set, and purchasing a bolt action hunting rifle (or a rimfire pistol/rifle) does not automatically make you a skilled big game hunter,or any kind of hunter, any more than purchasing a Bösendorfer piano makes you a world class  pianist.

Speaking of theory:

Each year I see urbanites/theorist hunters from various places show up in the fall and zoom around on their 4 wheelers, or in Bro trucks, cutting ranch fences, dressed head to toe in the latest brand of fancy camo, (which is funny since they never get more than a hundred yards from an ATV or truck) complaining about not seeing any big game.

They  will stop and ask if we have seen any elk, or mule deer or whatever. They are all experts though. They have read on internet forums that this is where the animals are, and they recently purchased the latest WisMagnum SuperSlayer rifle.

When they do see an animal, no matter if it is 3/4 of a mile away, it sounds like a Mad Minute. But that is a topic for another thread.

We simply avoid the "experts" like the plague. The best way to do that is to hunt areas where the terrain features are such that an ATV cannot go there:





The funny part is that my 14 year old girl's track record so far would probably put the majority to shame.














Anyways, back on topic, a suppressed rimfire pistol is an exceedingly handy tool in the toolkit in my experience. It does not weigh much, ammo does not weigh much and it is useful in numerous areas.

There is no question that a rimfire rifle is easier to make accurate hits with for most people, but an accurate, high quality rimfire pistol like a Ruger MKII, Browning Buckmark, Colt Woodsman, HI Standard, or similar pistol is far more accurate than many realize, and deadly effective. I see no reason not to have one in my pack.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 11:07:08 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lost_River:
So, what is the correlation is between competition shooting and a conversation about the best choice for a survival gun as it relates to hunting?


Please feel free to post up some of your hunting pics, or are you working off of theory?


Like a great many things, hunting is a skill set, and purchasing a bolt action hunting rifle (or a rimfire pistol/rifle) does not automatically make you a skilled big game hunter,or any kind of hunter, any more than purchasing a Bösendorfer piano makes you a world class  pianist.

Speaking of theory:

Each year I see urbanites/theorist hunters from various places show up in the fall and zoom around on their 4 wheelers, or in Bro trucks, cutting ranch fences, dressed head to toe in the latest brand of fancy camo, (which is funny since they never get more than a hundred yards from an ATV or truck) complaining about not seeing any big game.

They  will stop and ask if we have seen any elk, or mule deer or whatever. They are all experts though. They have read on internet forums that this is where the animals are, and they recently purchased the latest WisMagnum SuperSlayer rifle.

When they do see an animal, no matter if it is 3/4 of a mile away, it sounds like a Mad Minute. But that is a topic for another thread.

We simply avoid the "experts" like the plague. The best way to do that is to hunt areas where the terrain features are such that an ATV cannot go there:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/LostRiverRangeOct08027.jpg



The funny part is that my 14 year old girl's track record so far would probably put the majority to shame.



http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/2016%20deer%20elk/IMG_2068_zps9f88tde8.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/2016%20deer%20elk/IMG_1797_zpsqgzjxv1t.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/2015%20ELK/P1010360_zpsgpwovk78.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/P1000624_zps6pkxcxbu.jpg



Anyways, back on topic, a suppressed rimfire pistol is an exceedingly handy tool in the toolkit in my experience. It does not weigh much, ammo does not weigh much and it is useful in numerous areas.

There is no question that a rimfire rifle is easier to make accurate hits with for most people, but an accurate, high quality rimfire pistol like a Ruger MKII, Browning Buckmark, Colt Woodsman, HI Standard, or similar pistol is far more accurate than many realize, and deadly effective. I see no reason not to have one in my pack.
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I'm not going to kill animals simply to prove I can. That's silly. I only shoot ground hogs and I don't often use a pistol.

If you are saying I don't have the ability to kill animals then you only embarrass yourself.

Can your daughter take rabbits off hand with a 22 pistol out to 50 yards reliably? How many folks do you know who can?

I'm accurate as hell and I'd never claim to be able to feed my family with my MKII. That was my whole point. Most people buying 22 revolvers because of this thread to use as a survival gun PROBABLY cannot print a reasonable group at 10 yards. I can only hope that they read my words and actually go out and practice. They will either realize it's futile or get really good. That is very rare.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 11:16:35 AM EDT
So where are all the accounts of people using .22lr revolvers in 3rd world countries to survive?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm actually curious.  There are a lot of backwoods hellholes on this globe so I would assume there have to be some decent stories of someone using their .22lr revolver to live off the land?  I'd be interested to read some of them.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 12:07:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2017 12:21:49 PM EDT by Lost_River]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By batmanacw:



I'm not going to kill animals simply to prove I can. That's silly. I only shoot ground hogs and I don't often use a pistol.

If you are saying I don't have the ability to kill animals then you only embarrass yourself.

Can your daughter take rabbits off hand with a 22 pistol out to 50 yards reliably? How many folks do you know who can?

I'm accurate as hell and I'd never claim to be able to feed my family with my MKII. That was my whole point. Most people buying 22 revolvers because of this thread to use as a survival gun PROBABLY cannot print a reasonable group at 10 yards. I can only hope that they read my words and actually go out and practice. They will either realize it's futile or get really good. That is very rare.
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Your answers are what I expected..


I was specifically talking about HUNTING pictures, not exclusively rimfire.


BTW, my oldest daughter is a 3 time State Champion Mounted Cowboy Action Shooter for her age group.

She does not shoot nearly as much .22 out of handguns, as she does .45s, since she has had her own pair of matching .45s since she was 11.















She is also pretty well versed in other platforms as well.

Wolverines!






EDIT to add:

For the sake of moving this discussion forward, lets just say Batman that you are right. I have no idea what I am talking about.

I have never used a firearm in any way shape or form in the now 3 decades I have been carrying and using them in a martial role, as an Infantryman, LEO, high threat protection contractor (with 13 rotations in the middle east), competition shooter, etc. Not to mention the 2+ decades as an instructor.

You win.

Your theories trump the 30 years.

Cheers!
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 12:12:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Your answers are what I expected..


I was specifically talking about HUNTING pictures, not exclusively rimfire.


BTW, my oldest daughter is a 3 time State Champion Mounted Cowboy Action Shooter for her age group.

She does not shoot nearly as much .22 out of handguns, as she does .45s, since she has had her own pair of matching .45s since she was 11.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/012-7.jpg






http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Kimber45Rugers_zps99f59dbf.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberJune1Ontario2013_zpsedf59d11.jpg



She is also pretty well versed in other platforms as well.

Wolverines!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberWolverines_zpse79622f1.jpg
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Originally Posted By batmanacw:



I'm not going to kill animals simply to prove I can. That's silly. I only shoot ground hogs and I don't often use a pistol.

If you are saying I don't have the ability to kill animals then you only embarrass yourself.

Can your daughter take rabbits off hand with a 22 pistol out to 50 yards reliably? How many folks do you know who can?

I'm accurate as hell and I'd never claim to be able to feed my family with my MKII. That was my whole point. Most people buying 22 revolvers because of this thread to use as a survival gun PROBABLY cannot print a reasonable group at 10 yards. I can only hope that they read my words and actually go out and practice. They will either realize it's futile or get really good. That is very rare.
Your answers are what I expected..


I was specifically talking about HUNTING pictures, not exclusively rimfire.


BTW, my oldest daughter is a 3 time State Champion Mounted Cowboy Action Shooter for her age group.

She does not shoot nearly as much .22 out of handguns, as she does .45s, since she has had her own pair of matching .45s since she was 11.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/012-7.jpg






http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Kimber45Rugers_zps99f59dbf.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberJune1Ontario2013_zpsedf59d11.jpg



She is also pretty well versed in other platforms as well.

Wolverines!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberWolverines_zpse79622f1.jpg
So she is a typical shooter then.....? Obviously not.

When I said that most people who think they can hunt with a pistol cannot, what part of that do you disagree with? I think you are not in touch with the reality of how poor most people shoot.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 12:25:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By batmanacw:


So she is a typical shooter then.....? Obviously not.

When I said that most people who think they can hunt with a pistol cannot, what part of that do you disagree with? I think you are not in touch with the reality of how poor most people shoot.
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Dude I have been a firearms instructor for more than 20 years...


BTW,

I edited my previous post.

Give it a rest.

Your theories win.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 1:48:35 PM EDT
If by survival you meant the SHTF, and there is little if any law and it it back to 1890's like living, and I only had 1 gun, I would definitely choose a rifle. Handguns don't have enough velocity to do a great job consistently, in my opinion , in a survival situation.
If concealment isn't a concern, because laws isn't a factor in this scenario, I see no point in choosing a handgun over a rifle.
Of course, I would want a bigger caliber than .22. I know it's a versatile round, quiet, cheap, abundant, but I would prefer a .243, .270, or .308 rifle IF I could only have 1 gun in a survival sceanario
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 1:58:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Dude I have been a firearms instructor for more than 20 years...


BTW,

I edited my previous post.

Give it a rest.

Your theories win.
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Originally Posted By batmanacw:


So she is a typical shooter then.....? Obviously not.

When I said that most people who think they can hunt with a pistol cannot, what part of that do you disagree with? I think you are not in touch with the reality of how poor most people shoot.
Dude I have been a firearms instructor for more than 20 years...


BTW,

I edited my previous post.

Give it a rest.

Your theories win.
Which makes this far more puzzling....
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 9:11:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2017 9:11:37 PM EDT by ROCK6]
I'll be the peace-maker.  First, your daughter is too stinking cute @Lost_River; you should be a proud father!  I do agree with @batmanacw that most pistol shooters are likely not very capable for handgun hunting.  Can you get proficient?  Heck, your daughter is proof that you can become proficient if you're disciplined and dedicated.  

USRSOG is a respected group who have advocated for the .22LR pistol.  For size, weight and potential, it's hard to disagree.  Sure, a rifle is always more inherently accurate with better range, but it's hard to stow in a butt-pack type kit.

I also go back to location, environment and season as significant factors.  Skill is the only factor the shooter can control.  The potential for effective pistol hunting is there, but not many shooter dedicate the time or practice under typical weather hunting-conditions.  There are valid points from both of you, and there is more in common then their is different...

ROCK6
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 10:10:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:



Your answers are what I expected..


I was specifically talking about HUNTING pictures, not exclusively rimfire.


BTW, my oldest daughter is a 3 time State Champion Mounted Cowboy Action Shooter for her age group.

She does not shoot nearly as much .22 out of handguns, as she does .45s, since she has had her own pair of matching .45s since she was 11.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/012-7.jpg






http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Kimber45Rugers_zps99f59dbf.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberJune1Ontario2013_zpsedf59d11.jpg



She is also pretty well versed in other platforms as well.

Wolverines!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberWolverines_zpse79622f1.jpg




EDIT to add:

For the sake of moving this discussion forward, lets just say Batman that you are right. I have no idea what I am talking about.

I have never used a firearm in any way shape or form in the now 3 decades I have been carrying and using them in a martial role, as an Infantryman, LEO, high threat protection contractor (with 13 rotations in the middle east), competition shooter, etc. Not to mention the 2+ decades as an instructor.

You win.

Your theories trump the 30 years.

Cheers!

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Dude, you done good.

Link Posted: 6/20/2017 11:10:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2017 11:16:12 AM EDT by buck19delta]
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Originally Posted By llanero:
Best survival gun is a .22.  Over a 20ga barrel.
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this.

a over under rifle / shotgun combo is BEST, if your going with a single gun. maybe not what you want to fight off 20 hungry bikers, but perfect for shooting animals for food, nail a squirrel, turkey, or raccoon at 20 yards, or a  deer, or elk at 100-200 yards, all with the same gun .. protection from a wild animal, shooting raccoons in the chicken coop,  or to discourage someone from bothering you.

my perfect version would likely be .12/.20 guage under .223, 30-30 or .308. hell even .410 / 223 would be awesome. depends on several things. walking a lot, .410 / .223 would be great for light ammo / ability to carry lots of ammo.... not moving much?  .12 / .308, ammos heavier, but you don't care as much.

worst combo would be .22 / .410 IMHO. your gtg on small game, but not much effectiveness on larger game over maybe 50 yards with a .410 slug. as a small game only gun though, it would bring home the viddels.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 3:27:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Dude, you done good.

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Thanks for the Kudos!


Due to the nature of my career path, and the very real likelyhood that one of these times I may not return from one of my trips, I have always worked to teach my kids how to think instead of what to think, and teach skill sets.

Plus instead of saying "Don't touch that", I would say  "Here, let me show you the safe way to do that"


The oldest is fairly well versed, since whenever I was home from overseas, she was right by my side for everything.



The oldest is fairly well versed, since whenever I was home from overseas, she was right by my side for everything.







Link Posted: 6/20/2017 3:40:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2017 3:41:28 PM EDT by batmanacw]
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Thanks for the Kudos!


Due to the nature of my career path, and the very real likelyhood that one of these times I may not return from one of my trips, I have always worked to teach my kids how to think instead of what to think, and teach skill sets.

Plus instead of saying "Don't touch that", I would say  "Here, let me show you the safe way to do that"


The oldest is fairly well versed, since whenever I was home from overseas, she was right by my side for everything.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/CoyoteHuntingOct07053.jpg

The oldest is fairly well versed, since whenever I was home from overseas, she was right by my side for everything.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KMBRFSHHTCHRY.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberLCcabin_zps90deb428.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/006-1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/kimmberfiresticks_zpsf6df8cd2.jpg
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Dude, you done good.

Thanks for the Kudos!


Due to the nature of my career path, and the very real likelyhood that one of these times I may not return from one of my trips, I have always worked to teach my kids how to think instead of what to think, and teach skill sets.

Plus instead of saying "Don't touch that", I would say  "Here, let me show you the safe way to do that"


The oldest is fairly well versed, since whenever I was home from overseas, she was right by my side for everything.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/CoyoteHuntingOct07053.jpg

The oldest is fairly well versed, since whenever I was home from overseas, she was right by my side for everything.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KMBRFSHHTCHRY.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberLCcabin_zps90deb428.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/006-1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/kimmberfiresticks_zpsf6df8cd2.jpg
Seriously cute kids. Good job, Dad. They will live a better life because of your influence.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 4:31:40 PM EDT
Everyone must evaluate their need for survival. Here in Southern Arizona you are going to find in very difficult to feed a family on any wild game you are going to hunt in a shtf scenario. A 22 would probably feed them by shooting cats and dogs.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 9:48:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2017 9:48:46 PM EDT by Bubbatheredneck]
One of my favorite quotes regarding 'survival' firearms was from John 'Pondoro' Taylor. 

Something along the lines of "A man could walk across Africa feeding and defending himself with nothing more than a .22LR rifle and a large bore handgun".
Link Posted: 6/21/2017 8:48:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2017 8:50:50 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 4:46:24 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Just want to add here from a historical perspective.

The .22lr was used a lot by downed Bosnian war pilots in two main gun formats, The M6 scout which combined a .22lr with .410 shotgun and semi-auto target pistols with red dots.  Its good to keep in mind their application was very specific, game of opportunity.  Their main task was to get from point A to point B.  That's not necessarily hunting as we know it and not game specific.

Pretty much I think everyone should agree that hunting as a survival tool is supplemental at best. If we can think of it, 1,000 others will.  During the Great Depression the game of the SW US was so hunted out, people started eating Armodillos that they nicknamed "Hoover's Pigs".  

I've done outdoor stuff now for over half a century much of that in Appalachia. Appalachia was and still is a very economically suppressed area.  When I was a boy and before food stamps and the like, hunting was a way of life.  Almost everyone in those days supplemented their diet with game and hunting seasons meant almost nothing. The forests were hunted out to the point almost no game existed.  Even after the advent of first commodities then food stamps, it took decades for the game to return.  It has in a very big way but it did take quite a while.  The swamps of Louisiana have much in common with Appalachia especially historically.  There was a lot of poverty, geographic isolation, augmented diets by wildlife, and even shared a common theme in music.  When I first moved there in the early 70's, there were still people living in boat houses in the swamps so isolated they didn't even speak English.  They had a lot of game dishes I hadn't even thought of in Appalachia utilizing non-traditional game like Robin Gumbo.  Trot lines were a way of life.  Those boat people would run trot lines all the way around their homes and sell the fish to the restaurants along the I10 interstate. It was there I would learn about lizard fishing.  They'd cut a lizard shape out of an old tire, hook it, and put it on a very long cane pole then use their foot to slowly bob it up and down catching fish.  

The point I'm getting at here is when it comes to survival game collection one should think out of the box.  A widespread event, conditions and even what are going to change.

Tj
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Not being a native to the Southeast, I was shocked to discover that the Georgia squirrel population was hunted almost to extinction during the Great Depression.  As TJ said, game populations have rebounded and been managed extremely well, almost to the point we have an "over abundance" which is why hunting tags include up to a dozen deer and bear tags are more popular.  Small game has become such an annoyance, people pay trappers instead of hunting them.  We've had that discussion before, but if there's a major extended SHTF situation, game populations will go to ground or get over-hunted to the point that they will disappear again until a balance is achieved (i.e. a smaller human population).  

I think the only critter that will survive a large hunting surge is wild hogs, but your success with them will likely be trapping more than hunting.  

ROCK6
Link Posted: 6/22/2017 9:14:05 PM EDT
I guess different tools for different situations.  Dad used a single action Ruger .22 for years while drifting the river and running trap lines.  Usually there was always a shotgun and center-fire rifle in the boat.  He always shot a single action revolver back then so he was pretty good.  He shoots a semi auto now.  I like having a cz with a kadet conversion kit.  Best of both worlds pistol wise.  I also like a Savage 24 for these and survival situations.  It's heavy but I can use .22's and 20 gauge.  I've bought a .410 chamber insert to try as well.  Kinda heavy though.
Link Posted: 6/23/2017 9:59:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2017 10:00:40 AM EDT by 03RN]
I can't keep up with Lost_Rivers pics. I don't take pics very often. Very cute kid. You should be proud

But a handgun can be very effective survival tool. I don't choose my firearms on what the masses can, or can't shoot.

I love my single six. It's taken a truck load of squirrels and rabbits. Even though it's a single action I find I can shoot it as fast as I need to for follow up shots. With .22 mags it fully penatrates coons and beavers.

I would hesitate to shoot bigger game with it. Partly because of my shooting, partly because of the caliber.

I have found that a g19 is about perfect for woods use, unless you're in need of a big bear defensive handgun.

I have hunted and killed 200lbs deer with it and was impressed. Squirrels, grouse, coons, yotes, are all cake as well.

Ammo is heavier than .22lr but I don't find it excessive. I usually bring a couple hundred rounds on backpacking/hunting trips to plink with.
Attachment Attached File

Pardon the pic of a pic. That grouse was just a dinner of opertunity that was my g19s first kill.
Link Posted: 6/23/2017 4:49:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lost_River:
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Off topic -- good looking kid.  You are doing it right.

Otherwise, I don't have a dog in this hunt relative to the back and forth discussion.

Other than, if I had to take 1 gun for SHTF it would be a Ruger 10/22.  This is based on my level of competence and I believe it is a good trade off of weight and firepower.  I am simply not good enough with my Ruger MkIV pistol.
Link Posted: 6/24/2017 4:16:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I would love to see how many people think they can hunt with a pistol actually try it. Probably the same number of people who think they can hunt with an AR. 22 conversion kit with the sights regulated for .223.
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I've been running the woods for almost 40 years. I've yet to see anyone hunting with a 22 pistol or a glock.

Pistols are for self defense in close quarters when a rifle or shotgun aren't available or appropriate. It's like trying to drive nails with a crowbar, yeah you can do it but it's far from practical or efficient.
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 9:53:03 AM EDT
I agree that if SHTF hits, and you think you can live off the land with the other 300 million people who will be trying it, your likely going to starve before long.

instead of shooting rabbits, you would be better off trapping a few and stuff them into cages and let the reproduce.... then eat the offspring, and feed them garden scraps..   a hell of a lot better idea than trying to live off the land with a gun.

once again, it all comes down to layers.

1. stored food.
2. try to bring home food from a store / gov food station.
3. raise animals / have a garden.
4. live off the land / hunt and fish.

using all of those, you would probably eat enough to keep going... relying on any 1 of those... you might end up hungry, if you run out / lose your stock..  using all of them, you have fallback options.  and traps would still work better than a gun to collect animals.. small game traps, box traps, trot lines, etc. they all work 24/7, while your doing other things.
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 2:40:06 PM EDT
Revolver is not as picky when messing with various oddball stuff, like the 317 mentioned handles shorts, longs, and long rifle ammo.  Course they all have different points of aim.

Revolver won't throw your brass around either. 

If you go center fire revolver you don't need to resize it either.  I remember my glock 20 tended to have little bulges in the brass and this was factory barrel and factory ammo.  If reloading it and wanting it to work reliably you would be having to chase the brass, resize the brass, and then load er up.  I won't discuss reloading rimfire ammo, not gonna do it so I avoid the discussion.

If bullets get hard to find and you run some soft lead I would rather run some soft lead through something like a  44 mag or 45 colt revolver than a glock.  Yeah all the rifling will load up but I can run slower speeds in the revolvers with more weight and I won't be worried about making sure it cycles reliably.

Then again I come back to a semi auto, especially glock, when it comes to changing parts out if something breaks.  Taking a glock apart does not really bother me.  Changing some springs in the ruger sp101, gp100, or super redhawk stuff does not bother me.  But tell me a smith and wesson is out of time and my eyes are gonna get kinda big and I am gonna wonder if I even want to open her up.

The super redhawk lets you stick a scope on it if you wish to do so.  Heck, I forgot the single actions.  Got a 44mag super blackhawk hunter with a 2x scope on it and it is pretty nice.

You can scope most anything, but the super redhawk tends to come with scope mount I think.  I am a fan these days of the 45colt, sorry to my 44 mag stuff, and the super redhawk in 454 casull can run 45colt loads with ease.  Wondering about some 460s&w brass to make some home made shot shells as well.

Overall I guess I just come down to

1.  Make a list of what you think you want the firearm to accomplish.
2.  Pick quality firearm.
3. Get out and use it.  Don't 2nd guess yourself, get out and use it and see if it will do what you want.

If you own ammo and reloading stuff for it and can work on your personal firearm, well guess what. 

You might your own personal survival gun.
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