[ARCHIVED THREAD] - PA 3-18 - details? (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 1/27/2018 4:06:56 PM EDT
OK - watched the video and would like more info  A few questions as it seems that in this price range the newest offerings out there will be the PA 3-18 (FFP), Vortex SE 3-18 (SFP?), and Althon 2.5-15 (SFP) and I would like to know how they stack up against each other. I have owned a few PA scope and still do and find they are a great bang for the buck but I would like to know more about the new scope. 1. PA Mike said it was great Chinese glass - So how does it compare against other glass that is currently out there (I know the Vortex SE and Athlon aren't out yet but what about compared to the Diamondback or viper lines)? - I am going to be getting one for my boy to shoot on his .22lr/17hmr 2. Illumination intensity - is this daylight bright or about the same as your other scopes (not the platinum levels)? 3. Weight - what does this weigh in at? 4. Low light ability - How does this stack up against your own 4-14 in low light conditions 5. FOV at different maginifications? 6. Eyebox - Not really a question but a shout out to PA_Mike for an awesome presentation and I love the honesty where he says on powers from 3-14 the eyebox is very forgiving but from 15-18 it's sensitive - that is way cool to let people know up front. There are probably other questions but those are the main ones. |
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OK - watched the video and would like more info
A few questions as it seems that in this price range the newest offerings out there will be the PA 3-18 (FFP), Vortex SE 3-18 (SFP?), and Althon 2.5-15 (SFP) and I would like to know how they stack up against each other. I have owned a few PA scope and still do and find they are a great bang for the buck but I would like to know more about the new scope. 1. PA Mike said it was great Chinese glass - So how does it compare against other glass that is currently out there (I know the Vortex SE and Athlon aren't out yet but what about compared to the Diamondback or viper lines)? - I am going to be getting one for my boy to shoot on his .22lr/17hmr Our booth was so busy I really didn't get a chance to walk through the show and look through the glass for those competing products. At this time I'm not really qualified to give you a straight answer on this. Eventually once the products are released I'm sure some YouTube guy will have multiple brands on hand and do a comparison, but even then, there's no substitute for having the scope on a rifle (or dummy stock at SHOT) and actually looking through it. 2. Illumination intensity - is this daylight bright or about the same as your other scopes (not the platinum levels)? The same as the others. If that isn't daylight bright to you, I would like to know which illuminated scopes you do consider daylight bright, so I can look through them and educate myself on how much brighter they are. I use our illumination during daytime all the time, but I've seen other people say they aren't really "daylight bright", and I wonder what other magnified optics are brighter, and what price point they are at. 3. Weight - what does this weigh in at? Without the flip caps, the prototypes weigh in at 25.6 ounces, or 0.8 ounces more than the 4-14x44. Pretty awesome. However, I caution that this is the prototype weight, so that's approximate-- they are still tweaking a couple of things, including how the turrets reset, and that could affect the final weight, but probably not by much. 4. Low light ability - How does this stack up against your own 4-14 in low light conditions Ok this is one of those times where me being honest and building up some cred hopefully helps out, because I'm going to sound like a shill here. I own one of the original R-Grid 4-14x44 scopes and I love it. It's been on three guns including my Para FAL where it held zero for over a year hammering away at steel targets. I love the 4-14x44, there are videos of guys taking them to 1000 yards and all. We had both the 3-18x50 and the 4-14x44 on dummy rifles at SHOT Show and if you've ever been you know it's pretty poorly lit overall, the booths are lit up nicely but the venue itself is dark, with a dark ceiling and nasty yellowish lighting. I was able to look at the 4-14x and 3-18x back to back, at the same distances, at the same "targets" (mostly signs hanging from the ceiling in different areas). I wanted to compare the scope I already have and know to the new one. The results? The 3-18x50 beats the 4-14x44 like a drum. I mean, it drives straight to the basket, dunks on the 4-14x, disrespects it, and draws the foul too. The eyebox, overall clarity, and light gathering are just in a different league. It's going to be SO worth the extra money in my opinion. And I wish there was a way to impart that in some way besides doing what I did, which is just look through both scopes back to back. For now you'll just have to take my word for it. 5. FOV at different maginifications? The specs chart says at 3x you get 36.7ft at 100 yards, and at 18x you get 6.1ft at 100 yards. In between those two extremes, I don't know. But to show you how good this is, the Trijicon TA-33 is a fixed 3x and has a field of view of 19.3ft at 100 yards. This has over 17ft more field of view at the same power (hooray 50mm objective lens!). I know that's an odd comparison but I always like to compare to ACOGs because they are famous for having great FOV. One scope that is more comparable, which does beat us in field of view is the Leupold VX-6 3-18x50, which is listed at 38ft FOV at 3x, and 7ft at 18x. Great job Leupold! But the MSRP on their scope is $1,819. Stuff like this is why I believe we kick butt in value. You're getting really close to the performance of some high dollar optics, for $499 with a lifetime warranty. 6. Eyebox - Not really a question but a shout out to PA_Mike for an awesome presentation and I love the honesty where he says on powers from 3-14 the eyebox is very forgiving but from 15-18 it's sensitive - that is way cool to let people know up front. If I'm honest about everything up front then the customer has more realistic expectations and I build up credibility that money can't buy. If I say everything is perfect all the time, I might fool a few newbies, but real shooters know that you have to give up something to get something, that we are looking for value per dollar spent. I was totally honest with everyone at SHOT Show last week and people could tell I was excited and enthusiastic about our products and I believe in the company. I really am, so why would I have to lay the bull**t on top of that? No, you aren't getting a Schmidt and Bender for $500 here. But oh baby, this is gonna be one of the best $500 scopes ever made, and you'll be able to do great things with it. I was talking with a PRS shooter (there were quite a few out there) and the guy was really blown away by the quality of this scope, and he said something brutally honest that really made me happy. He was looking through it at 18x with the eye of a true long range shooter, and he said, "yeah, I can see a bit of chromatic aberration around the very edges at full mag..." and I said something like "damn, I'm sorry, that's disappointing". He replied "Doesn't matter at all. Any guy who tells you he missed the target and lost the stage because of chromatic aberration is full of crap. I don't spend my time at a match looking at imperfections around the edge of my scope. Your clarity is great, your reticle is smart, you're gonna sell every one of these you can make." There are probably other questions but those are the main ones. Glad to help. I'm gonna buy at least one of these for myself. The question is, does it go on my precision AR build, on my Rem 700, or both. If I buy two, where does my 4-14x44 go to live? I'm attaching a pic I took of my friend James with one of the prototypes just to add a visual to this thread.  |
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Thanks for the details! I’m really looking forward to seeing some reviews and comparisons. I love the ATHENA reticle and was looking at the Athlon Ares and Vortex PST 2. If you notice both have similar Christmas tree reticles but I can’t find anything under $900 with a reticle like that. I agree that you’ve filled that niche with a nice scope.
I don’t shoot as much as I like to so being able to get an awesome reticle like that in a good 3-18x scope for nearly half the cost is perfect for me. Now I just have to decide what I’m going to build for it, a 6.5G or 224 Valkyrie. |
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Happen to know when these things will be released? |
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Mike - Thank you for the detailed response - As a guy who has owned/owns ~ 10 PA optics (I know this pales in comparison to others  )
I will be waiting to see when this comes out. The 4-14 orion worked this year to bag 2 elk so I know they work :) - Lots of people talk about needing to dial but in the heat of the moment sometimes you need something fast and a little better than the old "Kentucky windage" 
Can't wait for more info on the reticles to decide which will work the best with my guns 
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OK - watched the video and would like more info
A few questions as it seems that in this price range the newest offerings out there will be the PA 3-18 (FFP), Vortex SE 3-18 (SFP?), and Althon 2.5-15 (SFP) and I would like to know how they stack up against each other. I have owned a few PA scope and still do and find they are a great bang for the buck but I would like to know more about the new scope. 1. PA Mike said it was great Chinese glass - So how does it compare against other glass that is currently out there (I know the Vortex SE and Athlon aren't out yet but what about compared to the Diamondback or viper lines)? - I am going to be getting one for my boy to shoot on his .22lr/17hmr Our booth was so busy I really didn't get a chance to walk through the show and look through the glass for those competing products. At this time I'm not really qualified to give you a straight answer on this. Eventually once the products are released I'm sure some YouTube guy will have multiple brands on hand and do a comparison, but even then, there's no substitute for having the scope on a rifle (or dummy stock at SHOT) and actually looking through it. 2. Illumination intensity - is this daylight bright or about the same as your other scopes (not the platinum levels)? The same as the others. If that isn't daylight bright to you, I would like to know which illuminated scopes you do consider daylight bright, so I can look through them and educate myself on how much brighter they are. I use our illumination during daytime all the time, but I've seen other people say they aren't really "daylight bright", and I wonder what other magnified optics are brighter, and what price point they are at. Well I have had your 1-6 and 1-4 scopes as well as currently am running an Accupower 1-4 and non of them to me are daylight bright. Not a deal killer just wondering where it landed with all the new technology that is coming out 3. Weight - what does this weigh in at? Without the flip caps, the prototypes weigh in at 25.6 ounces, or 0.8 ounces more than the 4-14x44. Pretty awesome. However, I caution that this is the prototype weight, so that's approximate-- they are still tweaking a couple of things, including how the turrets reset, and that could affect the final weight, but probably not by much. That is way cool - That gives me a reference 4. Low light ability - How does this stack up against your own 4-14 in low light conditions Ok this is one of those times where me being honest and building up some cred hopefully helps out, because I'm going to sound like a shill here. I own one of the original R-Grid 4-14x44 scopes and I love it. It's been on three guns including my Para FAL where it held zero for over a year hammering away at steel targets. I love the 4-14x44, there are videos of guys taking them to 1000 yards and all. We had both the 3-18x50 and the 4-14x44 on dummy rifles at SHOT Show and if you've ever been you know it's pretty poorly lit overall, the booths are lit up nicely but the venue itself is dark, with a dark ceiling and nasty yellowish lighting. I was able to look at the 4-14x and 3-18x back to back, at the same distances, at the same "targets" (mostly signs hanging from the ceiling in different areas). I wanted to compare the scope I already have and know to the new one. The results? The 3-18x50 beats the 4-14x44 like a drum. I mean, it drives straight to the basket, dunks on the 4-14x, disrespects it, and draws the foul too. The eyebox, overall clarity, and light gathering are just in a different league. It's going to be SO worth the extra money in my opinion. And I wish there was a way to impart that in some way besides doing what I did, which is just look through both scopes back to back. For now you'll just have to take my word for it. Once again - this gets me super excited - at times the 4-14 is not quite as bright as some of my vortex optics at dusk or dawn. The 3-18 would replace my main go to scopes so this is pretty important as I would use them from Dawn till Dusk and maybe some night hunting too 
5. FOV at different maginifications? The specs chart says at 3x you get 36.7ft at 100 yards, and at 18x you get 6.1ft at 100 yards. In between those two extremes, I don't know. But to show you how good this is, the Trijicon TA-33 is a fixed 3x and has a field of view of 19.3ft at 100 yards. This has over 17ft more field of view at the same power (hooray 50mm objective lens!). I know that's an odd comparison but I always like to compare to ACOGs because they are famous for having great FOV. One scope that is more comparable, which does beat us in field of view is the Leupold VX-6 3-18x50, which is listed at 38ft FOV at 3x, and 7ft at 18x. Great job Leupold! But the MSRP on their scope is $1,819. Stuff like this is why I believe we kick butt in value. You're getting really close to the performance of some high dollar optics, for $499 with a lifetime warranty. I hate to keep saying it but that is impressive in a $500.00 optic 6. Eyebox - Not really a question but a shout out to PA_Mike for an awesome presentation and I love the honesty where he says on powers from 3-14 the eyebox is very forgiving but from 15-18 it's sensitive - that is way cool to let people know up front. If I'm honest about everything up front then the customer has more realistic expectations and I build up credibility that money can't buy. If I say everything is perfect all the time, I might fool a few newbies, but real shooters know that you have to give up something to get something, that we are looking for value per dollar spent. I was totally honest with everyone at SHOT Show last week and people could tell I was excited and enthusiastic about our products and I believe in the company. I really am, so why would I have to lay the bull**t on top of that? No, you aren't getting a Schmidt and Bender for $500 here. But oh baby, this is gonna be one of the best $500 scopes ever made, and you'll be able to do great things with it. I was talking with a PRS shooter (there were quite a few out there) and the guy was really blown away by the quality of this scope, and he said something brutally honest that really made me happy. He was looking through it at 18x with the eye of a true long range shooter, and he said, "yeah, I can see a bit of chromatic aberration around the very edges at full mag..." and I said something like "damn, I'm sorry, that's disappointing". He replied "Doesn't matter at all. Any guy who tells you he missed the target and lost the stage because of chromatic aberration is full of crap. I don't spend my time at a match looking at imperfections around the edge of my scope. Your clarity is great, your reticle is smart, you're gonna sell every one of these you can make." There are probably other questions but those are the main ones. Glad to help. I'm gonna buy at least one of these for myself. The question is, does it go on my precision AR build, on my Rem 700, or both. If I buy two, where does my 4-14x44 go to live? I'm attaching a pic I took of my friend James with one of the prototypes just to add a visual to this thread. http://primaryarmsoptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/James3-18x50.jpg |
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Quoted: Need to post up some pictures on a CZ455, Ruger precision rimfire, 10-22 and other ones. Seeing how Athlon is doing well in the 22 prs type matches, I bet the 3-18 will be also. It is a large optic and will look goofy-huge on a 10-22. However, .22lr precision competitors have exacting requirements and "looks proportional" is generally not one of them. |
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Quoted: On the prototypes, parallax goes all the way down to 15 yards. Also, we will offer multiple ACSS grid-type reticles which will be compatible with any caliber assuming you care enough to run your data through a ballistic app. These are ATHENA (MIL-based), RGrid-2B (MIL-based with horseshoe and chevron for quick target acquisition at low magnifications) and HERA (MOA-based). It is a large optic and will look goofy-huge on a 10-22. However, .22lr precision competitors have exacting requirements and "looks proportional" is generally not one of them. Could you post up some pictures or drawings of the reticles? I hope you have ordered a ton of these scopes. If they are as good as they sound then you might be selling out of another scope . I have seen that happen to more than one of your scopes
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| I'll give you guys more of a breakdown on reticles when we get closer to actually launching the optics. There are a lot of options but with the same basic concept, I'll have to put some thought into how to present it so shooters can decide which one is right for them. |
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zero stop on the production models? And how can I get on a list or pre order so I don't miss out on the first run? If these come out in the spring my mind will be on bass fishing and I'll forget to follow up. With this 3-18x50, for what we expect it to do, if you are counting clicks on the top turret for multiple revolutions and then needing to spin it down back to zero super fast, you are doing it wrong. The reticles Dimitri has designed have amazing, accurate holdover references that will get you out to, and sometimes even past, 1000 yards without ever touching the turrets, simply using holdovers for both wind and elevation. Holdovers are the way of the future. They are so much faster and more flexible in real life shooting situations. At the SHOT Show booth this year I encountered multiple PRS shooters and had some really honest discussion with them about where PA is in the optics field and what these guys are doing in competition. One guy told me "My attitude is, if I have to touch a turret while shooting, I know right then that I've lost that stage." For the Platinum 6-30x, I envision a situation where someone is going to do a combination of pre-dialing in some elevation compensation, say 500 yards worth, and then crunching the numbers to do holdovers for another 1000 yards past that. If the competition stage (or the hunting situation) changes and now the shooter has to switch from 1500 yards to then hit a an Ace of Spades playing card at 200 yards or something, BAM spin the turret back down to the stop and you're back at 100 yard zero super fast. If you're playing that game with a $499 scope, even as good as this one is... you're probably reaching too far, in my opinion, and you would be better served saving up for the big bad Platinum with it's beautiful Japanese glass and giant 56mm objective lens. All the above is just PA_Mike's personal take from talking to the PRS guys, that's not official Primary Arms policy or anything. Just how I personally envision these products in use and why I think we designed them the way we have. 2. We are working on a pre-order system for products which are announced but not yet live. I think the idea is to allow pre-orders briefly while the product is here but going through our Quality Assurance process. The QA process here is extensive and we check every single PA product, we don't just "spot check" a few from the top of the pallet, so it takes some time. So, I hope we would be looking at maybe a week or two of pre-ordering, knowing how many we will have in stock, and then BAM you get your product pretty quickly. But this isn't implemented yet and all that is subject to change. For those who didn't get a chance to see our 2018 Product Catalog at SHOT, we used the 3-18x50 on a Daniel Defense DD5v1 .308 rifle (which is a freakin' amazing rifle even at $3000+) for our cover photo. You can follow the link for the full size version in all it's glory. 
http://primaryarmsoptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/3-18onDD.jpg Also, this particular scope was a prototype that did not have it's reticle type engraved on the ocular bell as usual, but there is a clue to one of our new reticles in this photo, if you know where to look....
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They are expensive, and we didn't print enough for that. All of our products listed together with their info and nice photos on good paper stock is over 60 pages. If we gave one out with every order we would run out in half a day or so. |
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I understand, maybe next year I'll make it to the NRA show. I'm a sucker for old fashioned print catalogs, keep up the great work! Quoted:
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They are expensive, and we didn't print enough for that. All of our products listed together with their info and nice photos on good paper stock is over 60 pages. If we gave one out with every order we would run out in half a day or so.
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What should we expect for reticles, price range and availability? I have to replace my 4-14X44mm .308 ACSS that went belly up the last time I had it, and my RPR at the range. Holding off buying a replacement until the new scopes hit Texas. |
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What should we expect for reticles, price range and availability? I have to replace my 4-14X44mm .308 ACSS that went belly up the last time I had it, and my RPR at the range. Holding off buying a replacement until the new scopes hit Texas. What happened to your 4-14x44? Did you give us a ring and check into the warranty status of the scope? |
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We talked a little about it by email a few weeks ago. I honestly don't know what happened to it. Was hitting steel @ 200 yards with ease. Next time out,
WTF? Mounted the scope on a 10/22, and tried to zero at 25 yards. It turned into SNAFU. Did notice the illumination turret was locked up solid (turning freely now). Not sure if it's past the warranty. I've had it for over two years for sure. Things happen and it's all good. Quoted:
I'm gonna do a run-down on all the reticles at some point later, it'll probably be it's own thread because it'll generate a lot of discussion. What happened to your 4-14x44? Did you give us a ring and check into the warranty status of the scope? Quoted:
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What should we expect for reticles, price range and availability? I have to replace my 4-14X44mm .308 ACSS that went belly up the last time I had it, and my RPR at the range. Holding off buying a replacement until the new scopes hit Texas. What happened to your 4-14x44? Did you give us a ring and check into the warranty status of the scope? |
| It's a three year warranty. Email [email protected] and lets get you taken care of. The 4-14x44 is usually really tough, I haven't heard of one locking up like this, I bet we will want to rip it apart and see what happened. |
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I'm honestly not sure because the pre-order process is still being worked on and I'm not really in the loop on that. The best thing to do is like Primary Arms on Facebook and Primaryarmsonline on Instagram. You can bet that as soon as they start to come in and pre-order becomes available, we'll be talking about it there trying to stir up some attention. Also, that's where all the cool pics and stuff get shared anyway.
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They are expensive, and we didn't print enough for that. All of our products listed together with their info and nice photos on good paper stock is over 60 pages. If we gave one out with every order we would run out in half a day or so. And make a post here about the pre-orders? I definitely want in on a mil Athena |
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2018 Primary Arms Product Catalog!
This is a low rez version to make the file size somewhat manageable, so some of the photos look pretty pixelated, but all the data is there. No pricing, as prices were not determined on some products when the catalog had to go to print. However you can find pricing on everything, including new products that haven't been released yet, at http://www.primaryarmsoptics.com |
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I actually used the search bar on top and the prices show up for the items. The gen 4 compact weapons light looks good but I really want that 3-18x scope with the Athena reticle. I just ordered my 6.5 Grendel barrel yesterday so my plan is to have the new upper ready by the time it ships!
What is the max travel per rotation on the turrets and max elevation/windage? |
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The spec sheet says maximum windage and elevation adjust is just over 50 MOA, but unless you are running the HERA BPR MOA reticle, clicks will be in Mils. For the Mil-based reticles you're looking at about 150 clicks available. The MOA-based reticle will come in a scope body featuring 0.25 MOA clicks, so you'll get about 200 clicks out of that one. But honestly, as I've said before, if you are counting hundreds of clicks through these optics you aren't really using the reticles as intended. They are designed for you to count a few clicks to adjust for the zero of a particular loading (today we are shooting 168 grain .308 instead of 147 grain) and then use the smart reticles to hold over for everything else. If your shooting style requires you to keep track of 110 clicks through multiple turret rotations, we officially suggest you step up to the Platinum 6-30x56 and make use of the zero stop elevation turret. |
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2018 Primary Arms Product Catalog! This is a low rez version to make the file size somewhat manageable, so some of the photos look pretty pixelated, but all the data is there. No pricing, as prices were not determined on some products when the catalog had to go to print. However you can find pricing on everything, including new products that haven't been released yet, at http://www.primaryarmsoptics.com |
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Thanks Mike! Not going to lie. The R-grid 2B reticle looks to be the best combination of all reticles |
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Off stops between brightness settings = Hell yeah! ... hard to get that feature in a That is the prototype of the 3-18 on the DDM5 on the cover page of the brochure, yes? ETA: FFP, zero reset, daylight visible illumination (brochure), illumination off/saver stops (brochure) - you guys have answered the call - well done! I honestly thought I'd be on a waiting list for a SE 3-18 .. I'm now on the PA bandwagon and I'll be waiting for one of these instead |
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Yes, off stops between brightness settings, with a total of 6 brightness settings. No night vision compatibility, but given the issues we've had with that recently maybe it's for the best right now, eh? The latest word is that we won't see these until late summer, which sucks because I have a precision AR build with NO optic right now just sitting in the safe. Maybe I need to snag another 4-14x44 to tide me over for a few months... dang... |
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Yes, off stops between brightness settings, with a total of 6 brightness settings. No night vision compatibility, but given the issues we've had with that recently maybe it's for the best right now, eh? The latest word is that we won't see these until late summer, which sucks because I have a precision AR build with NO optic right now just sitting in the safe. Maybe I need to snag another 4-14x44 to tide me over for a few months... dang...
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Will the release of the new optic line alter the pricing on any of the existing scopes y’all sell? Wishful thinking mainly on my part but I figured I’d throw it out there. It’d give me an excuse to start the dmr build I’ve been thinking about Start the DMR. Put the 3-18x50 on it. Hit the target from very far away. Be happy. |
