[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Black oxide? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 5/10/2021 1:59:58 AM EDT
| I noticed the barrel description for the 14.5 super duty rifle said cold hammer forged, chrome lined, and black oxide coated. I thought these barrels were parkerized on their exterior, was I wrong? If these are no longer parkerized, when did that change occur? |
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Its a very durable black oxide finish that works very well on the exterior of the barrels. You'll just need to oil like normal and the barrel will be good to go. We've seen great results with this coating and haven't had any issues with the finish on our in house cold hammer forged chrome lined extremely accurate barrels. -GACS |
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Quoted: Its a very durable black oxide finish that works very well on the exterior of the barrels. You'll just need to oil like normal and the barrel will be good to go. We've seen great results with this coating and haven't had any issues with the finish on our in house cold hammer forged chrome lined extremely accurate barrels. -GACS So the same maintenance as a parkerized barrel? Or should it be oiled more liberally? |
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Quoted: Parkerizing is a much better process than black oxide Meeh, not necessarily. Both are good. I think we missed the real question: what about chrome lining and are the barrels Geissele CHF, or another barrel ? As I recall, Geissele has quoted CHF Parkerized barrels and buttoned Nitrided barrels in the past few months. Does it matter? Probably not. But, will Geissele remain transparent or drift into the realm of “proprietary barrels” like the firm in TX? |
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Quoted: Meeh, not necessarily. Both are good. I think we missed the real question: what about chrome lining and are the barrels Geissele CHF, or another barrel ? As I recall, Geissele has quoted CHF Parkerized barrels and buttoned Nitrided barrels in the past few months. Does it matter? Probably not. But, will Geissele remain transparent or drift into the realm of “proprietary barrels” like the firm in TX? They still specify CHF and chrome lined on the black oxide coated barrels. |
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Quoted: Meeh, not necessarily. Both are good. I think we missed the real question: what about chrome lining and are the barrels Geissele CHF, or another barrel ? As I recall, Geissele has quoted CHF Parkerized barrels and buttoned Nitrided barrels in the past few months. Does it matter? Probably not. But, will Geissele remain transparent or drift into the realm of “proprietary barrels” like the firm in TX? Quoted: Meeh, not necessarily. Both are good. I think we missed the real question: what about chrome lining and are the barrels Geissele CHF, or another barrel ? As I recall, Geissele has quoted CHF Parkerized barrels and buttoned Nitrided barrels in the past few months. Does it matter? Probably not. But, will Geissele remain transparent or drift into the realm of “proprietary barrels” like the firm in TX? Quoted: .... on our in house cold hammer forged chrome lined extremely accurate barrels. -GACS The Nitride barrels on the current Super Duty options are CHF barrels made on our forge and we do our own button barrels as well. We also include barrel info on the product pages so you know what you're getting. -GACS |
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Pretty standard oil maintenance for the barrel should be gtg. If you live in a high humidity area then more will be needed but that's true for mag phos too. One of the really nice things about the SD series is that the rail comes off and goes on super easy. All you need is a t30 torx key and can do just fine with hand tight. The center tab with the rail and receiver even locates it so you'll be lined up right with zero effort. -GACS |
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Quoted: Pretty standard oil maintenance for the barrel should be gtg. If you live in a high humidity area then more will be needed but that's true for mag phos too. One of the really nice things about the SD series is that the rail comes off and goes on super easy. All you need is a t30 torx key and can do just fine with hand tight. The center tab with the rail and receiver even locates it so you'll be lined up right with zero effort. -GACS Ok thanks. |
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Quoted: The Nitride barrels on the current Super Duty options are CHF barrels made on our forge and we do our own button barrels as well. We also include barrel info on the product pages so you know what you're getting. -GACS Okay, so I believe part of this. 1). Your nitride barrels are CHF in your equipment. Good to know. Would not have been my guess, 2). “We do our own button barrels.” I am throwing the penalty there. No way you you button broach yourself own barrels and run a hammer forge. I don’t buy it. Explain. What I will believe is you are buying someone else’s buttoned blank and you are chambering and contouring those blanks. Yes? No? I am not the World’s expert on barrels, but the experts I talk to point to only company who does button broaching and CHF. That is FN. and I bet FN makes 10x the number of barrels that Geissele makes, as they make fir commercial (CHF) and military (buttoned) markets and all their barrels are also chrome lined. The barrel is the heart of the AR15 / M4 platform. I just like transparency. I have no doubt the Geissele is doing it’s best to make a super quality rifle and all the components that you make and have made for you. But telling the full truth when it comes to barrels is important. I really would be happy as a turd to learn that all the buttoned barrels come from Rick Creek or Criterion or Lilja or wherever, because, at the end of the day I know two things: 1). I really do trust Geissele to design and assemble a quality product, and; 2). I do t think you really make all the things you say you make, but I do t care. See #1. That said, show us a virtual tour of your facility. I think that is fun to watch. |
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Quoted: Okay, so I believe part of this. 1). Your nitride barrels are CHF in your equipment. Good to know. Would not have been my guess, 2). "We do our own button barrels." I am throwing the penalty there. No way you you button broach yourself own barrels and run a hammer forge. I don't buy it. Explain. What I will believe is you are buying someone else's buttoned blank and you are chambering and contouring those blanks. Yes? No? I am not the World's expert on barrels, but the experts I talk to point to only company who does button broaching and CHF. That is FN. and I bet FN makes 10x the number of barrels that Geissele makes, as they make fir commercial (CHF) and military (buttoned) markets and all their barrels are also chrome lined. The barrel is the heart of the AR15 / M4 platform. I just like transparency. I have no doubt the Geissele is doing it's best to make a super quality rifle and all the components that you make and have made for you. But telling the full truth when it comes to barrels is important. I really would be happy as a turd to learn that all the buttoned barrels come from Rick Creek or Criterion or Lilja or wherever, because, at the end of the day I know two things: 1). I really do trust Geissele to design and assemble a quality product, and; 2). I do t think you really make all the things you say you make, but I do t care. See #1. That said, show us a virtual tour of your facility. I think that is fun to watch. 
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Quoted: Okay, so I believe part of this. 1). Your nitride barrels are CHF in your equipment. Good to know. Would not have been my guess, 2). “We do our own button barrels.” I am throwing the penalty there. No way you you button broach yourself own barrels and run a hammer forge. I don’t buy it. Explain. What I will believe is you are buying someone else’s buttoned blank and you are chambering and contouring those blanks. Yes? No? I am not the World’s expert on barrels, but the experts I talk to point to only company who does button broaching and CHF. That is FN. and I bet FN makes 10x the number of barrels that Geissele makes, as they make fir commercial (CHF) and military (buttoned) markets and all their barrels are also chrome lined. The barrel is the heart of the AR15 / M4 platform. I just like transparency. I have no doubt the Geissele is doing it’s best to make a super quality rifle and all the components that you make and have made for you. But telling the full truth when it comes to barrels is important. I really would be happy as a turd to learn that all the buttoned barrels come from Rick Creek or Criterion or Lilja or wherever, because, at the end of the day I know two things: 1). I really do trust Geissele to design and assemble a quality product, and; 2). I do t think you really make all the things you say you make, but I do t care. See #1. That said, show us a virtual tour of your facility. I think that is fun to watch. We legit do our barrels in house, fact. I know I still think it's crazy too! I'd love to do a virtual tour but that's also super tricky given some of the mil work we do and all. If I can work out something though I'll let everyone know and post up. -GACS |
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Quoted: We legit do our barrels in house, fact. I know I still think it's crazy too! I'd love to do a virtual tour but that's also super tricky given some of the mil work we do and all. If I can work out something though I'll let everyone know and post up. -GACS Have Bill call me. 
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Quoted: Its a very durable black oxide finish that works very well on the exterior of the barrels. You'll just need to oil like normal and the barrel will be good to go. We've seen great results with this coating and haven't had any issues with the finish on our in house cold hammer forged chrome lined extremely accurate barrels. -GACS "Very durable black Oxide finish" Total bullshit I'm calling it now. There's no such thing. |
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Quoted: Okay, so I believe part of this. 1). Your nitride barrels are CHF in your equipment. Good to know. Would not have been my guess, 2). “We do our own button barrels.” I am throwing the penalty there. No way you you button broach yourself own barrels and run a hammer forge. I don’t buy it. Explain. What I will believe is you are buying someone else’s buttoned blank and you are chambering and contouring those blanks. Yes? No? I am not the World’s expert on barrels, but the experts I talk to point to only company who does button broaching and CHF. That is FN. and I bet FN makes 10x the number of barrels that Geissele makes, as they make fir commercial (CHF) and military (buttoned) markets and all their barrels are also chrome lined. The barrel is the heart of the AR15 / M4 platform. I just like transparency. I have no doubt the Geissele is doing it’s best to make a super quality rifle and all the components that you make and have made for you. But telling the full truth when it comes to barrels is important. I really would be happy as a turd to learn that all the buttoned barrels come from Rick Creek or Criterion or Lilja or wherever, because, at the end of the day I know two things: 1). I really do trust Geissele to design and assemble a quality product, and; 2). I do t think you really make all the things you say you make, but I do t care. See #1. That said, show us a virtual tour of your facility. I think that is fun to watch. We have forge, button and cut rifle capability, in house. Not blanks, not purchased, not contracted, not rebranded, not oem. Not anything else you can think of. Our barrels, all of them, are made in our facility on our equipment, by our team and no one else. |
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Quoted: We have forge, button and cut rifle capability, in house. Not blanks, not purchased, not contracted, not rebranded, not oem. Not anything else you can think of. Our barrels, all of them, are made in our facility on our equipment, by our team and no one else. Quoted: We have forge, button and cut rifle capability, in house. Not blanks, not purchased, not contracted, not rebranded, not oem. Not anything else you can think of. Our barrels, all of them, are made in our facility on our equipment, by our team and no one else. Can you respond to this: Black oxide is bluing, like what was on WW1 era 1911s. It offers zero corrosion resistance. And this: •Phosphate and oil affords more corrosion protection than black oxide with same oil. •Black oxide can be used as a rust retardant, but it is not as effective as black phosphate. The black zinc phosphate acts sacrificially to protect the steel, whereas the black oxide will rely on the after-finish for corrosion protection. •Benefits of manganese phosphate include its superior corrosion protection in comparison to black oxide, as well as it’s anti-galling and self-lubrication properties which provide continuous protection on gun parts subject to wear. • Black oxide is the lowest cost and least effective long term coating for the applications. |
Just compared my brand new G super duty to my buddies who has one of the first batch made. Mine is black oxide and very obvious once you compare the two. I ordered from Brownell's which shows this: I'm not very pleased to received a product different from what I ordered. @GACS Any chance you can take care of this? |
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Quoted: Just compared my brand new G super duty to my buddies who has one of the first batch made. Mine is black oxide and very obvious once you compare the two. I ordered from Brownell's which shows this: https://i.imgur.com/gOTDhUk.png I'm not very pleased to received a product different from what I ordered. @GACS Any chance you can take care of this? For my own curiousity, what would you like them to do to take care of it? They don’t make mag phosphate barrels anymore, so they can’t replace it. The only thing I can see is getting your money back from brownells. This isn’t gacs fault. |
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Quoted: For my own curiousity, what would you like them to do to take care of it? They don’t make mag phosphate barrels anymore, so they can’t replace it. The only thing I can see is getting your money back from brownells. This isn’t gacs fault. It's a brand new gun with 0 rounds through it. I paid 2.2k for a gun, when I could have gotten a better barrel from a PSA Daily Deal. It's absurd they are cheaping out on the barrel finish on a premium gun. |
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Geisseles website states right on it: Attached File Why would you think Geissele is responsible for out of date information on someone else's website? *unless Geissele never notified them of the change, then thats a whole nother issue* If you are that upset that your barrel has a different coating than what Brownells told you and you want a refund, then thats between you and Brownells. Nothing to do with Geissele. |
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Quoted: It's a brand new gun with 0 rounds through it. I paid 2.2k for a gun, when I could have gotten a better barrel from a PSA Daily Deal. It's absurd they are cheaping out on the barrel finish on a premium gun. We will get our site updated. If you are not happy with the gun, please contact us on AR15.com via messenger, including your order number, or contact us through our site and we can assist wit a return. |
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Quoted: I know Giessele has done some things to lower the cost or at least up the pace of production but I'm not doubting they make the barrels in house. Quoted: I know Giessele has done some things to lower the cost or at least up the pace of production but I'm not doubting they make the barrels in house. Quoted: We legit do our barrels in house, fact. I know I still think it's crazy too! I'd love to do a virtual tour but that's also super tricky given some of the mil work we do and all. If I can work out something though I'll let everyone know and post up. -GACS I really don't care what they make or buy, as long as it is quality. GACS says they do button cut and cold hammer forged. I did not know that. I cannot imagine why they would. Two very different technologies, for a shop does not seem to be producing many barrels, I mean comparatively. Also, quite unusual to chrome line, black oxide, phosphate and nitride barrels. I mean, seriously, this is a lot of barrel this and that. So, @GACS, you have said a mouthful on the barrels. Button broaching requires stress relieving. Are you heat treating or freezing? and @samuse, black oxide can be very effective on stainless, but then again, I agree, its purpose on stainless is somewhat limited, compared to the purpose of a phosphate or nitride finish on carbon-chrome-moly steel. This is intellectually interesting to me in so many ways, but then again, I am a barrel guy. The alloy and the process and the quality control fascinates me, but maybe is more so is the business model. I do not think I know of another company, certainly not a rifle company, let alone a barrel company that is offering so many varieties of a barrel, so early into their business life as a barrel maker. Why? |
@gacs Smyth Busters: Is Cold Blue as Good as Hot Blue? Speaking about hot blueing he says “even the good blueing is able to be taken off through wear and tear. Or rusted through, if you sweat on it, spill a coke on it, get blood on it it’s going to come off.” |
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Quoted: Black oxide is a bad choice for a duty weapon. For a safe queen? Probably works great. I worked in firearms manufacturing for 20 years. Black oxide is a terrible choice for a firearms finish. You did parkerizing at Barrett right? On the other hand, apparently G triggers are black oxide finished also. I could be mistaken, but that’s what I read. In any case, the triggers seem to be holding up fine, and have a great reputation, so I’m not as worried about it anymore. |
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Quoted: You did parkerizing at Barrett right? On the other hand, apparently G triggers are black oxide finished also. I could be mistaken, but that’s what I read. In any case, the triggers seem to be holding up fine, and have a great reputation, so I’m not as worried about it anymore. I did the parkerizing for about a year and a half before moving into the assembly/test fire shop. We did mil spec parkerizing because of a lot of military contracts. |
| If the barrel is mostly covered by the rail, is this a big deal for a gun that will spend time outdoors? I figured the mag phosphate is important if the barrel is gonna be banged around a lot and the finish might see some wear due to that. Not sure if the black oxide would be as corrosion resistant when left intact? |
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Quoted: I really don't care what they make or buy, as long as it is quality. GACS says they do button cut and cold hammer forged. I did not know that. I cannot imagine why they would. Two very different technologies, for a shop does not seem to be producing many barrels, I mean comparatively. Also, quite unusual to chrome line, black oxide, phosphate and nitride barrels. I mean, seriously, this is a lot of barrel this and that. So, @GACS, you have said a mouthful on the barrels. Button broaching requires stress relieving. Are you heat treating or freezing? and @samuse, black oxide can be very effective on stainless, but then again, I agree, its purpose on stainless is somewhat limited, compared to the purpose of a phosphate or nitride finish on carbon-chrome-moly steel. This is intellectually interesting to me in so many ways, but then again, I am a barrel guy. The alloy and the process and the quality control fascinates me, but maybe is more so is the business model. I do not think I know of another company, certainly not a rifle company, let alone a barrel company that is offering so many varieties of a barrel, so early into their business life as a barrel maker. Why? Maybe for government contract options |
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Quoted: If the barrel is mostly covered by the rail, is this a big deal for a gun that will spend time outdoors? I figured the mag phosphate is important if the barrel is gonna be banged around a lot and the finish might see some wear due to that. Not sure if the black oxide would be as corrosion resistant when left intact? I won't share my thoughts on the matter. |
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Quoted: I'll probably just hit the barrel with degreaser and clear krylon and call it a day. I doubt anything would get under the rail to wear the protective layer sufficiently to cause corrosion, unless I left the gun at the bottom of a lake. Can that hold up to the heat? |