[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Black oxide? (Page 2 of 3)
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Quoted: Its a very durable black oxide finish that works very well on the exterior of the barrels. You'll just need to oil like normal and the barrel will be good to go. We've seen great results with this coating and haven't had any issues with the finish on our in house cold hammer forged chrome lined extremely accurate barrels. -GACS #VERYDURABLEBLACKOXIDEFINISH |
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Quoted: They have been made with a black oxide coating for a few months now. -GACS I have a couple of 14.5" DDCs still sealed in the bags that were shipped in mid February and have the non-warcomp flash hider. Are these likely to have the black oxide coating? I can't tell being sealed in bags. Cheers |
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Quoted: I’d like to know which barrel finish the new 14.5” URGI has as well. Thanks. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: @GACS Any idea which barrel finish will be on the incoming 14.5” URGIs? Thanks Yes, please inform I’d like to know which barrel finish the new 14.5” URGI has as well. Thanks. Attached File |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: @GACS Any idea which barrel finish will be on the incoming 14.5” URGIs? Thanks Yes, please inform I’d like to know which barrel finish the new 14.5” URGI has as well. Thanks. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310007/Polish_20210719_133808130_jpg-2020420.JPG I personally would rather not buy one than buy one that I'm going to have to oil and watch forever. I'll be waiting for G to go back to phosphate or nitride |
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I have to wonder about the importance of finish on a barrel that is shrouded from nut to muzzle by a solid free float handguard. It really just doesn't seem super critical. @GACS My SD shipped Feb 23 2021, SKU# 08-187LB. Can you tell by that info what finish it has? I'm curious because whatever it is, it is completely satisfactory (I've shot well over 1K rds, including 6 matches, both PRS style and tactical multi-gun, one of which was in the rain and we all got a mud bath). In other words, if this barrel has the black oxide finish then I can confirm it is perfectly adequate. |
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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Geissele make their barrels completely in-house now? Or do they outsource for phosphating and chrome lining (also nitriding, for that option)? I don't understand the rationale for moving to this inferior black oxide finish. It seems just about every other barrel manufacturer is phosphating their barrels just fine, from budget to high-end. I'd much rather have a nitrided barrel than this questionable black oxide stuff. Chrome lining just isn't that important to me. It's unfortunate, since I'd like to backorder an SD upper, but I'm not gambling with these black oxide barrels. |
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Quoted: If you read their reply, they're recommending you remove your FF rail to oil the barrel. I won't share my thoughts on the matter. My biggest gripe with G is they approach their business like an elegant restaurant that wants to tinker with their menu that don’t need to be tinkered with. If you read on of their manuals it reads like a 1980s stereo instructions…. Let’s over engineer a process around a rail that half the guys will freak out when they scratch the paint. But hey, that rusted barrel will get that cream your pants shade of DDC in no time! |
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Quoted: Not all steel can be phosphated. Quoted: Quoted: I think somewhere like ADCO will phosphate the barrel for $50 per barrel if you send it in. I’m sending mine in to pin/weld a warcomp and may have them do a mag phosphate finish on the barrel. Not all steel can be phosphated. Any reason to think their barrels are not CMV? They forge them in house I believe. No idea what kind of steel they use. Hopefully it’s 4150 CMV but considering the cost cuts with black oxide instead of phosphate, who knows. |
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Quoted: There barrels will phosphate if they will take black oxide. Hmm. Not necessarily. Phosphate works on carbon based steel like 4140 and 4150 "Chrome Moly" steel. Black Oxide will work on both 4000 and 400 series steel, so Stainless as well as carbon based CM and CMV. I am not sure what steel Geissele is using. I did not research it. Maybe they have said ? I have skimmed the barrel conversations but it seems like Geissele has been changing barrels. Correct me if I am wrong. I thought they had Nitrided, Phosphated and chrome line and Black Oxide finishes. I am not sure if they are using Stainless or Carbon-Chrome-Moly steel. I seem to recall button cut and cold hammer forged. There is a lot or writing, and I have been away. My only comment is not all steel can be phosphated, but black oxide takes to different steel alloys. |
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Quoted: Hmm. Not necessarily. Phosphate works on carbon based steel like 4140 and 4150 "Chrome Moly" steel. Black Oxide will work on both 4000 and 400 series steel, so Stainless as well as carbon based CM and CMV. I am not sure what steel Geissele is using. I did not research it. Maybe they have said ? I have skimmed the barrel conversations but it seems like Geissele has been changing barrels. Correct me if I am wrong. I thought they had Nitrided, Phosphated and chrome line and Black Oxide finishes. I am not sure if they are using Stainless or Carbon-Chrome-Moly steel. I seem to recall button cut and cold hammer forged. There is a lot or writing, and I have been away. My only comment is not all steel can be phosphated, but black oxide takes to different steel alloys. This brings up a great question. We have all been focused on the black oxide finish. Now I’m more curious to know what kind of barrel steel they are using in these uppers. I really do hope we are getting MIL-B-11595E 4150 CMV for these prices. |
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Geisele is not going to be chrome plating. Stainless barrels. Don’t over-think this. Quoted: Hmm. Not necessarily. Phosphate works on carbon based steel like 4140 and 4150 "Chrome Moly" steel. Black Oxide will work on both 4000 and 400 series steel, so Stainless as well as carbon based CM and CMV. I am not sure what steel Geissele is using. I did not research it. Maybe they have said ? I have skimmed the barrel conversations but it seems like Geissele has been changing barrels. Correct me if I am wrong. I thought they had Nitrided, Phosphated and chrome line and Black Oxide finishes. I am not sure if they are using Stainless or Carbon-Chrome-Moly steel. I seem to recall button cut and cold hammer forged. There is a lot or writing, and I have been away. My only comment is not all steel can be phosphated, but black oxide takes to different steel alloys. |
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Quoted: @GACS I’d assume it’s 4150 cmv and they don’t list it because it’s the industry standard barrel steel. Quoted: Quoted: @GACS What barrel steel are you guys using in your SD rifles? It does not say on the product pages. @GACS I’d assume it’s 4150 cmv and they don’t list it because it’s the industry standard barrel steel. That’s a really great question, I noticed it too, it doesn’t say what steel the barrels are made from. I always assumed 4150 CMV, but idk. I’d really like to know the answer too. |
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Quoted: Do most $2000+ AR companies black oxide their barrels or no? Is it to increase the profit margin? I would say it's because they can do it in house which allows more rifles to get out to customers. Have you had any rust on your geissele rifle? |
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Quoted: Have you seen how fast the rifles are selling? I would say it's because they can do it in house which allows more rifles to get out to customers. Have you had any rust on your geissele rifle? Quoted: Quoted: Do most $2000+ AR companies black oxide their barrels or no? Is it to increase the profit margin? I would say it's because they can do it in house which allows more rifles to get out to customers. Have you had any rust on your geissele rifle? I don’t know because I don’t own a black oxide barrel. But Geissele did recommend oiling the black oxide barrels on a schedule to prevent it from rusting. Perhaps they use a special kind of black oxide that works just as well as phosphating. I don’t think they would sell rifles they knew would all rust. I’ve just never seen a manufacturer that suggested removing the rail on a schedule to oil the barrel. I was just trying to understand Geissele’s reason for switching from phosphating to black oxide. Maybe they have a proprietary version of black oxide that’s better than phosphating. I honestly don’t know, but would like to. |
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Quoted: I don’t think they would sell rifles they knew would all rust. I’ve just never seen a manufacturer that suggested removing the rail on a schedule to oil the barrel. I was just trying to understand Geissele’s reason for switching from phosphating to black oxide. Maybe they have a proprietary version of black oxide that’s better than phosphating. I honestly don’t know, but would like to. Agree 100% |
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The G hate is absurd. How can anyone call phosphate a great finish…it’s a WW1 era metal finish born out of a lack of technology and understanding. It wears off, scratches to bear metal, can easily rust if not bathed in oil, and looks horrible after minor handling (see colt hate thread #87). It is outdated crap…not something to be lauded. People are bitching to bitch. If you don’t want a G rifle..don’t buy one, easy solution. The rest of us are perfectly happy with them as they are great. |
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Quoted: What you said about parkerizing is true, Black Oxide has all the same weaknesses only moreso. While there are superior finishes, Black Oxide ain’t it. Nitride is the best external finish Geissele offers. There are plenty of data points on the Hide and similar sites regarding Nitride as a barrel treatment. The gist is that it is not great. The temps required to properly nitride metal can affect temper/heat treat. Further, the rifling is less wear resistant than chrome but harder than plane steel causing any imperfections (like burs from chambering) to be super hard and damage the bullets, leading to excessive copper buildup and limited accuracy. In general, it is not done to precision rifles without a huge amount of $$$ prep to lap and smooth any imperfections prior to nitride. This could never be done on a production gun. LWCRI did and does a ton of nitride barrels and they are ok...but not better than quality chromed bores. Black Oxide is fine on external surfaces. Frankly...a rifle seeing any real use is getting wet with lube pretty frequently anyway, so there should be no issue there. If it's an issue for someone, send the rifle to get ceracoated and you are good for life...easy day. |
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Quoted: There are plenty of data points on the Hide and similar sites regarding Nitride as a barrel treatment. The gist is that it is not great. The temps required to properly nitride metal can affect temper/heat treat. Further, the rifling is less wear resistant than chrome but harder than plane steel causing any imperfections (like burs from chambering) to be super hard and damage the bullets, leading to excessive copper buildup and limited accuracy. In general, it is not done to precision rifles without a huge amount of $$$ prep to lap and smooth any imperfections prior to nitride. This could never be done on a production gun. LWCRI did and does a ton of nitride barrels and they are ok...but not better than quality chromed bores. Black Oxide is fine on external surfaces. Frankly...a rifle seeing any real use is getting wet with lube pretty frequently anyway, so there should be no issue there. If it's an issue for someone, send the rifle to get ceracoated and you are good for life...easy day. Do you have sources to back those claims up? Some high end brands only use nitride barrels. Radian and Triarc to name 2. I haven’t heard any complaints about either brand. |
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Quoted: Do you have sources to back those claims up? Some high end brands only use nitride barrels. Radian and Triarc to name 2. I haven’t heard any complaints about either brand. Go research it. Dave Tooley, one of the best and most respected precision rifle builders in the US, did a big writeup on it complete with borescope pics/video. The gist was that Nitride was less resistant to heat/fire checking and crackling than chrome but would lock in the micro abrasions and burrs that are normal from cutting a chamber across the rifling lands which lead to bullet damage and copper buildup in the barrel. Effectively, nitride created a barrel that never truly "broke in" in precision rifle speak...those minor imperfections that would have been smoothed out over the first 100 rounds were virtually permanent... Smiths on the Hide in the gunsmithing section went back and forth on it forever, sending barrels to be treated, polishing them first, inspecting, shooting, testing...and Dave found a way to make it work. To paraphrase, you had 2 options- Build it, shoot 5-10 rounds as break in, cleaning between shots and inspecting with borescope...but no more as fire checking can start in the throat...then clean it fully and have it nitrided. Alternately, he has a way to lap the leade/throat after cutting the chamber and inspect until he can verify no more imperfections...then have it nitrided. Either way, the same throat erosion happened at the same rate as an untreated barrel because the temp of the burning powder/gas is higher than the melting point of the barrel steel...and nitriding can't alter that. You can read about it from the mouth of the guys who build guns that shoot in the 0s...go check it out, it is good stuff. Nitride is great for rust resistance though and it can prevent cleaning rod damage. |
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Quoted: How can they not be able to do parkerizing in house? I bet I could get setup in my garage in an afternoon after a youtube video and a trip to the hardware store. It's bizarre, especially since only Geissele seems to be having this problem. I haven't seen any other manufacturer having trouble phosphating their parts, so why is Geissele? |
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Quoted: It's bizarre, especially since only Geissele seems to be having this problem. I haven't seen any other manufacturer having trouble phosphating their parts, so why is Geissele? I've been noticing a lot of parts having black oxide substituted in place of phosphate for almost a year now. Colt parts like the safety selectors, takedown and pivot pins, bolt catches and even trigger parts have been showing up black oxided instead of phosphated. I know that Damage Industries used to offer the selection of parts in either finish, but now they mostly only offer parts in black oxide. Though Damage is saying that it's because the black oxide has a darker more even appearance which is more important to the mostly civilian customer base.  I know that ALG's QMS triggers are also finished in black oxide instead of phosphate which was pretty disappointing to me since bought 3 of them fairly recently after incorrectly assuming they would be phosphate. 
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Quoted: It's bizarre, especially since only Geissele seems to be having this problem. I haven't seen any other manufacturer having trouble phosphating their parts, so why is Geissele? Quoted: Quoted: How can they not be able to do parkerizing in house? I bet I could get setup in my garage in an afternoon after a youtube video and a trip to the hardware store. It's bizarre, especially since only Geissele seems to be having this problem. I haven't seen any other manufacturer having trouble phosphating their parts, so why is Geissele? BO is generally used after a manufacturer gets tired of finish complaints. Park is inherently streaky and blotchy. It varies based on numerous things including minor impurities in the metal being parked. All park is is a crystalline buildup on the surface that acts like a rigid sponge to hold whatever liquid it contacts…hopefully oil. Park is not great and generates a ton of complaints from the fit and finish crowd. Unless you are in salt water, BO should work fine and look better. |
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So a little more info from Geissele CS. Apparently this finish is not simply cold blueing. I could not get more specific info than that. They advised against stripping the barrel and phosphate finishing it but could not provide more detail outside of it would void warranty. It sounds like the best course of action is just to not mess with it and keep oiling it. I only asked because I shoot outdoors in all kinds of nasty weather and I’m going to be pinning a KAC MAMS device on here so hoping no issues with the barrel once those are pinned on there. |
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Quoted: So a little more info from Geissele CS. Apparently this finish is not simply cold blueing. I could not get more specific info than that. They advised against stripping the barrel and phosphate finishing it but could not provide more detail outside of it would void warranty. It sounds like the best course of action is just to not mess with it and keep oiling it. I only asked because I shoot outdoors in all kinds of nasty weather and I’m going to be pinning a KAC MAMS device on here so hoping no issues with the barrel once those are pinned on there. I highly doubt anyone thought geissele was cold blueing barrels. Hot blueing is also called black oxide. |
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Quoted: I don’t know because I don’t own a black oxide barrel. But Geissele did recommend oiling the black oxide barrels on a schedule to prevent it from rusting. Perhaps they use a special kind of black oxide that works just as well as phosphating. I don’t think they would sell rifles they knew would all rust. I’ve just never seen a manufacturer that suggested removing the rail on a schedule to oil the barrel. I was just trying to understand Geissele’s reason for switching from phosphating to black oxide. Maybe they have a proprietary version of black oxide that’s better than phosphating. I honestly don’t know, but would like to. Funny, Daniel Defense rifles don't need to have their barrels oiled on a schedule. Neither does PSA. |
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Quoted: Funny, Daniel Defense rifles don't need to have their barrels oiled on a schedule. Neither does PSA. Quoted: Quoted: I don’t know because I don’t own a black oxide barrel. But Geissele did recommend oiling the black oxide barrels on a schedule to prevent it from rusting. Perhaps they use a special kind of black oxide that works just as well as phosphating. I don’t think they would sell rifles they knew would all rust. I’ve just never seen a manufacturer that suggested removing the rail on a schedule to oil the barrel. I was just trying to understand Geissele’s reason for switching from phosphating to black oxide. Maybe they have a proprietary version of black oxide that’s better than phosphating. I honestly don’t know, but would like to. Funny, Daniel Defense rifles don't need to have their barrels oiled on a schedule. Neither does PSA. It's just another CYA thing that manufacturers state, same deal with warnings saying all parts replacements require a qualified gunsmith and never shoot remanufactured ammunition. Park, and even nitride will rust if exposed to adverse conditions and not cleaned within a reasonable period of time. |
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Quoted: Funny, Daniel Defense rifles don't need to have their barrels oiled on a schedule. Neither does PSA. To be fair, Geissele never said you have to oil it on a schedule. They just said it needs standard oil maintenance (just like mag phos) and that removing the rail was easy. Everyone needs to stop repeating this “oil on a schedule” bs. |
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Quoted: @GACS Any idea which barrel finish will be on the incoming 14.5” URGIs? Thanks Not sure what or why you ask. I think Geissele has been pretty open and transparent. Chrome lined = black oxide exterior finish. Nitride = Nitride inside and out. There is no more Parkerize exterior barrels. |
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The special edition Brownells super duty rifle has a CHF mag phosphate chrome lined barrel? Brownells |
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Quoted: The special edition Brownells super duty rifle has a CHF mag phosphate chrome lined barrel? Brownells I was just looking at that. |
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Here is the black oxide in all its glory, hate away on it. Got it about a week and a half ago, was waiting for sights a red dot to show up and got it out to the range today. No regrets on this purchase, black oxide and all. I am a little disappointed the Bill didn’t call me though.  Attached File |
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Quoted: The special edition Brownells super duty rifle has a CHF mag phosphate chrome lined barrel? Nope Attached File |
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They’ve changed the product description. Couple days ago it said mag phosphate ??????? |