[ARCHIVED THREAD] - PA10 Nitrated 18", Gen 2 observations / fixes... Criterion barrel results 10 Sept '17. (Page 2 of 5)
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And, because times have changed ( and no offense to anyone ) ..... I will give a "beware of what some guy on the internet says to do" warning... and anyone doing what I have done, is proceeding at their own risk !!, ....as I have no way of knowing anyone's level of proficiency with home "gunsmithing" and "do it yourself tasks". IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE doing what I have chosen to do, then DON'T DO IT !
Me and/or anyone, including the webpage, at www.ar15.com is responsible for someone else's own decision's and actions. REMEMBER... grinding your barrel nut will VOID your warranty with PSA !!! I am not saying this to be mean spirited, but more as a warning. Make your own decisions, and be responsible for your own choices. I am saying that is the route I took. I am not sure I could have bent the gas tube enough or correctly.. at least to my liking. Also, honestly.. had I not ground the barrel nut, I still feel like the edge closest to the receiver would have been pushing on the gas tube and creating its own set of issues... AGAIN no offense to anyone !! I have been quite specific through this thread as to what worked for me... I don't want to feel like I should stop posting based on someone not understanding what I am doing with my property. |
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The D&H 20rd and 10rd mags feel much stronger the Brownells...they latch in better then the Brownells, needing only a normal slap, but do not drop free currently. I can feel a little feed lip spread when fully loaded, but not enough to hinder seating.
They are not better fitting / sliding into the magwell then the Magpuls or Lancers... So if you want some smooth sided mags that fits all USGI M14 type mag pouches... I'd use them. Hand cycled feeding was perfect....I think after the magwell wears in they will drop free better. The Brownells version of the Geissele reaction rod is "Ok"... I didn't bother to look at the overall length and you need to use a 1/2 drive ratchet to secure it... there is in no way, enough of the rod sticking out the ass end of the receiver to DIY grind vise flats and still engage the barrel extension locking lugs. And I was expecting a snugger fit into said locking lugs... the rest of the rod fits in the BCG channel perfectly The JP Universal Vise blocks are GTG... I would have preferred the blocks extend the entire length of the receiver, rather then one end or the other. |
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The Criterion Barrel...
I want to make a special notation about the quality of the packaging Criterion did... Outstanding will sum it up. Heavy Cardboard tube, bubble wrapped with plenty of spare on both the muzzle end and breach end, PlastiDip type caps on the breach end ( clear over the rim that makes contact with the receiver face ) and on the muzzle and that expandable plastic netting over all of it. Details count !!! The care taken in packaging, makes me think they really do take pride in their workmanship. Thank You Criterion Barrels. I have to say... if I knew which upper was going to be the recipient of the Criterion Barrel... I would probably stay up waaaay to late getting it installed. |
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Quoted:
Thanks, OP. PSA owes you a commission as I now have a cart full of PA10 uppers and lowers and a complete rifle! Will the PA10 upper mate with a DPMS lower? According to this thread... QUOTE ... "yes, the Gen2 PSA upper fit my Bushmaster/DPMS pattern lower perfect" the OP said he had to relieve some material behind the bolt catch. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/PSA-Gen2-PA10-18-upper-question-/121-716315/ |
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Range day 18" SS Upper....
First off... The PSA 18" Middie SS upper runs 100%.... no issues at all The D&H 20 and 10rd mags function perfectly... and by the end of the day, they both were dropping free. I have some IMI 20rders on order as well as a 20rd C Products. On to the good stuff. Accuracy results.... all targets are fired at 100yds , solid benched, scoped ( PA 4-14x44 ), bagged front and squeeze bag on the back.... I prefer to shoot mildly rapidly, so, no barrel cooling between shots ( it is a MSR , Lol.. so I shoot it in the manner it was intended to be used ) This barrel demonstrates how different barrels can be.. the result were quite different between this stainless and the nitrated one. Generally speaking... the SS barrel I have is more accurate, with a greater variety of the tested ammo.... Some of it was dramatically more accurate. The first group of the day was a great start... brand new barrel, nice and clean.... Stainless Steel OEM Barrel with the SLR Adjustable Gas block groups..... First photo ... STAY Tuned on this ammo. Some of the "sanitized" DAG / MEN ammo SGAmmo was selling ( groove cut around the head of the cartridges rim , removing most of the head stamp ) Great group IMHO, especially considering the ammos cost and being "Ball" ammo. 
2nd Photo..... Hirtenberger '83 
3rd Photo....168gr FGMM ....shot about the same as the Nitrated barrel. 
4th Photo.... M118LR... I have hope for this ammo, after the barreled settled into it .. it started shooting those touching rds sub groups. 
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Stainless Steel OEM Barrel with the SLR Adjustable Gas block groups.....
5th Photo... Portuguese FN Ball 
6th Photo....Atomic 168gr 
7th Photo... Malayisan from the .30cal cans... another one that deserves more scrutiny.. quite a few touching shoots. 
8th Photo... Hirtenberger '76 
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Stainless Steel OEM Barrel with the SLR Adjustable Gas block groups.....
9th Group Photo... 2016 MEN.. The nitrated barrel did better with this one. 
10th Group Photo....Eagle Eye 175gr ... One of the best groups of the day. 
11th Group Photo... ZQI Ball... still sucks, I gave up after a 5 shot group over 5" ish, based on the previous results. Why waste the barrels life.. Lol 
12th Group Photo... TAP "AR" ...much better in the SS, then the nitrated barrel. 
13th Group Photo... Federal 130gr OTM.. pretty good for such a unique bullet design. 
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Stainless Steel OEM Barrel with the SLR Adjustable Gas block groups.....
14th Group Photo... CBC / Magtech 2015 Ball 
15th Group Photo.... ELD TAP 
16th Group Photo... ADI / Aust. Outback 168gr 
17th Group Photo... BH 175gr TMK.... MUCH better group then the Nitrated barrel 
18th Group Photo... PMC XTAC 
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Stainless Steel OEM Barrel with the SLR Adjustable Gas block groups.....
This is the stay tuned part.... even after a full days worth of shooting , a filthy gun and barrel.... Just because the first group was so good.. ( the sanitized German ammo and a brand new , clean barrel ) , I decided it would be prudent to fire another group with it, just to be certain it wasn't a fluke... again mildly rapid fire, shoot, back on target within 1-2 seconds, fire.. 20rds. Sad part is.. that surplus has dried up. EDIT... back in stock at SGAmmo.com as of 10th Sept. '17 
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Well.... so ultimately... the nitrated barrel will be coming off and be replaced with the Criterion Barrel.
I do think the PSA barrels performed at their price point..... but for me ( and YMMV ) I do want better accuracy. I will try to change them as quickly as possible... I am anxious to see the accuracy improvement. PSA ... please note... if there is an easy way to remove your barrel nut... this would be when I like to know it. I am a little concerned about messing upper my upper... everything I have read says that your gunsmiths are known for " just a little tighter...) Frankly, even a you'll be fine would be appreciated. |
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Great stuff, OP. I know you don't get a lot of replys on these threads, but I can assure there are lots of us out there who read them with great interest.
I have a PSA Gen2 PA10 18" Mid-Length .308 WIN Stainless Steel sitting in the safe, and I'm still trying to decide what to do with it. |
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Quoted:
Great stuff, OP. I know you don't get a lot of replys on these threads, but I can assure there are lots of us out there who read them with great interest. I have a PSA Gen2 PA10 18" Mid-Length .308 WIN Stainless Steel sitting in the safe, and I'm still trying to decide what to do with it. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for sharing. I am going tomorrow to shoot my PA10 for the first time and plan to use Malaysian 308, so your results are encouraging. FWIW... plain ole' Fed. XM80 shoots good in the Nitrated barrel ... didn't get a chance to try it in the SS...yet. |
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Just got back from my first range trip with my PA10. I shot about 35 rounds of Malaysian 146 grain 7.62, and 5 rounds of black hills 175 grain match ammo a friend was kind enough to let me have. A larue MBT is destined for this gun, but I'm very happy with it. Dirt cheap gun with dirt cheap ammo resulted in a 2 MOA gun.
I only noticed a little bit of scratching/burring on the ejected rounds, so I'll grab a bore brush and ream it out a little to smooth out the rough patch. I also noticed ejection was approximately 2 o'clock, so all seems well. No malfunctions, and I'm tickled to death right now because I feel like I stole a gun from Palmetto at half price. Pictures because everyone likes pictures: Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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And its done... barrel nut loosened.
Well.... that was very uneventful !!! The PSA barrel nut was a breeze to loosen up on the nitrated upper !! WD-40'd it let it soak for about 5 min. and a reasonable pull was all it took. ( Heck I have turned bolts tighter then this one ) IMHO, it was snug enough... but not Gorilla'd on like I expected ! JP Vise blocks worked perfectly for this upper. The barrel freely moved out of the upper. So much for worrying about some thing needlessly !! Next, I will true up the receiver face..... most likely "glue / lock tight" the Criterion barrel in place and torque it down. |
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Lot of us appreciate your posts, and the other posts of others before.
I mean, with a few tweaks you can do, the PA10 at less than $500 is a hell of an AR308. I love my gen1, waiting on my gen2 upper to get here and put it on the rifle gen2 lower. Something will be interesting is that the rifle lower recoil system feels a lot stouter than the gen1 carbine recoil system. Would be nice if my gen2 will chamber the PPU 7.62x51 I have, if not, probably will be trading material with friends....... |
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Checking the headspace w/ PSA Bolt and Criterion barrel.... bolt will close and lock on FGMM .308 , CBC 7.62x51, and Hirtenberger '76 7.62x51 ball....
Bolt will NOT close or lock on a Forster NO GO gage. 1st photo....trued the receiver face ..... ignore the haphazard grind marks from the "flattening of the barrel nut" 
2nd photo... shows the different barrel profiles... PSA at the top, Criterion SS Nitrated .308 Hybrid Barrel on the bottom ( Criterion Model 1018S-HYM-N...18"... 1-10 RH twist ... 5/8 x 24 threaded muzzle.... .750 gas journal... Mid length Gas system.... Criterion 308 WIN M118 chamber ) 
3rd Photo... PSA on top.. Criterion on the bottom 
4th Photo ... PSA on top ... Criterion on the bottom 
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Comparing the fit of the two barrels into the upper receiver.... the PSA barrel shows some slop in the barrel extension to upper receiver....
Using just my hands you can feel a definitive " light thunk" while holding the PSA barrel snuggly into the receiver and shifting the barrel side to side and up and down... interestingly, it is most pronounced up and down..... the Criterion barrel shows MUCH less movement.. in any direction. I will try to mic both and see what the measurements are. After hand fitting all the parts together, and slightly snugging the barrel nut on the Criterion barrel ( Not fully torqued ) ... I have hand fed numerous .308 rounds and 7.62x51 rounds... all have fed perfectly... from the Magpul, Lancer ( still the strongest mag spring of all the mags ) , the D&H and even the Brownells. I will use the Loctite 609 Retaining Compound .... when I install the barrel, following their guidelines. From the Criterion barrel fitting youtube video...  Accurizing the AR-15 - Part 3: Receiver Prep & AR-15 Barrel Installation |
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Quoted:
And its done... barrel nut loosened. Well.... that was very uneventful !!! The PSA barrel nut was a breeze to loosen up on the nitrated upper !! WD-40'd it let it soak for about 5 min. and a reasonable pull was all it took. ( Heck I have turned bolts tighter then this one ) IMHO, it was snug enough... but not Gorilla'd on like I expected ! Mine is a SS barrel and I tried removing it twice, wont budge. Since I don't have a 308 vice block I have been a little hesitant to really lean on it, but it is for sure past the range of normal for the AR's I have taken apart. |
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I don't know if the ALG "Go Juice" that I have been using helped with the barrel nut coming loose freely.... but I should mention that information as well... FWIW.
And buy a vise block... I left the BCG installed as an added internal support , in case it was a bear, but luckily didn't need to worry about it. After I get the barrel changed on the Nitrated upper.... I will disassemble the SS upper and check how tight that ones barrel nut is. I will report the results here. FYI... do not buy the Brownells .308 "Reaction Bar"... it is to short to use in ANY practical sense.... except for installing barrels to the receiver extension. |
| The only reason I want to move the nut is the rail is off just a hair. Before in my youth I have been able to crack barrel nuts loose without a vice block on ar15's, I was hoping to get lucky with this one but no dice. Once of these days it will annoy me enough to get a block and fix it. |
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I installed the Criterion barrel today as per Criterions video, used the Loctite 609, lubed the barrel nut with anti seize, torqued it to 50 ft/lbs , Blue Loctited the gas block screws and torqued to SLR spec.
I then checked the headspace, with the ejector and extractor removed from the bolt.... closed on a "Go" gage and would not close on a "No Go" gage... even with a little nudge / pressure on the BCG assist......( BTW... the SS PSA upper with the OEM barrel was the same ) With the hammer removed , I hand cycled various .308 and 7.62x51 ( 10 different, 5 of each cal.) brands through it , each brand from a fully loaded 20rd mag, all fed and extracted fine... except the 2016 MEN.. 2 of those 20rds were snug extracting... and the bolt went fully into battery. Are those two rds something to be concerned about ?.... I think I will open another couple of 20rd boxes, hand cycle them and see if it happens again. As per Criterions webpage..." These barrels feature an M4 barrel extension and M118 LR match chamber compatible with both 7.62x51 NATO and .308 Win ammunition. " Here is the explanation on the "M118LR Match Chamber".... https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/06/13/the-m118-lr-chamber-the-223-wylde-of-the-308-ar-world/ ...it is similar to a .223 Wylde chamber design.... I feel comfortable with the M118 LR match chamber. I will measure the neck diameter on the MEN ammo and compare it to the other rounds... I would like to test fire it this weekend. |
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4 hours ago, survivalshop said:
"Once the Bolt seats with the Barrels locking Lugs , it should loosen up , so to speak . Feeding & extracting certain live ammo may have issues extracting on a new build , shouldn't have any issues with the Action when the ammo you feed is fired . Keep it well lubed for the first hundred rounds or so . Criterion is my main brand of Barrels for the 308AR , that chamber works very well indeed . " Thank you. With no mil-spec I was kind of concerned...( parts fitting wise ) but you are right. |
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So I received the IMI 20rd mag and the C-Products 20rd mag....
The IMI is GTG, 100% function, drops free loaded and unloaded, holds all 20rds, has just the right spring pressure.... and is OD Green.. ;) The C Products is... rough cycling almost like it was binding with the BCG holds only 19rds if you want it to seat in the PSA PA10, doesn't drop free at all, the follower looks like something I whittled out of plastic, is NOT anti tilt .. and frankly looks like it uses a M14 mag spring, seriously....I can't say I will buy more C-Products mags. |
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As for the testing of the new Criterion barrel, a much more detailed "report" is coming.... but, to cut to the chase, it shot most everything better and I couldn't be happier. No problems at all with the Criterion barrel.
I was at the range from 08:00 - 15:30... fired 100's of rounds, and still got nice, predictable small 10rd groups from its favorite ammo at the end of the day.... with no cleaning at the range at all... the rifle ran 100%. I fired all the different types of .308 / 7.62x51 I had with me.... I am guessing around 30-40 different rounds. 20rd or 10 round groups. The Lancers with their stiff springs ( probably not helped by the gas block settings ) caused sluggish feeding.... but all the other mags ran like champs... especially the P-Mags, D&H, and the IMI. One other brief highlight was the ZQI ammo no longer shots like a 25yd duckbilled buckshot pattern.... it is not a small group... but it is better. Also, while I am confident the new Criterion barrel helped with the group flyer issues... I can't help but wonder if trueing the receiver face and using the Loctite 609 helped with flyers.... I could see if I messed up the shot. I started realizing that the "flyers" were a result of me, more often than not, because of my poor bench skills....IE, not maintaining proper rifle holding skills. I guess what I am saying is.... true up your receiver faces and use the Loctite 609... I will even pull apart the 18" SS upper and do the same thing to it. I seriously mean it when I say thanks for all the help from this forum and from all you guys... you all helped instill confidence and offered help with a helpful demeanor, something that lacks at other forums sometimes... no one here ever looked down on the lowly PSA PA10 GenII. After some morning coffee and such, I will start photographing and reporting. |
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IMI 20rd AR10 mag photos...nice thick "rubber" base, smooth positive spring action....easy to take apart, seats easily holds all 20rds, fed and functioned 100%
Might be 2nd or 3rd favorite mag... 1st P-Mag, then D&H or IMI... D&H is 100% GTG and is slick sided, to in and out of mag pouches is very easy. Ignore the white powdery look... that is just a Dri-film lube. And the sprng to the left is from the C-Products mag. 
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An antitilt follower is fine with curved mags, but on a straight 20 mag, the follower must tilt.
An M14 mag spring seems to fix the cheap Brownells mags causing bolt overs on my gen1. The Brownells issue happens on the last 1-3 rounds. The base of the cartridges wont rise to the top..... I have a few CProducts 20s on the way to test.... Keep up your hard work. Thank you sir! Edit: I have a few D&H 20s coming, not CProducts. |
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New Criterion Barrel shooting results...
First off, the barrel was 100% GTG in all aspects... no issues with its performance, feeding and fuction or its install, as a matter of fact I couldn't be happier with it. The online Criterion Barrel install video is excellent and I installed it just like it shows. ( Video # 3 ) I allowed the Loctite 609 about 35+ hrs to dry... prior to shooting. http://criterionbarrels.com/media/videos/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series Kudos to Criterion barrels for a those videos. I do think the trueing of the receiver face and the Loctite 609 are important, and easy to do, if you have the barrel off take the time to do it. I suspect Criterion knows what they are doing , ;) Lol ... and the benefits are less flyers and more consistent group sizes. I could tell when I was screwing up a group with the new barrel installed.... and really couldn't fault the PA10 GII for those flyers. Here are the first groups of the day.. ( I did fire 6 rounds to get on target ) New Criterion Barrel shooting results... 1st photo, FGMM 168gr, 6rds 
2nd photo, FGMM 168gr, 5rds or 6 ?.. I don't remember, and I was excited to try more ammo. 
3rd photo, 20rds BH 168gr Moly coated 
4th photo, 20rds Fed. M118LR, happy about this one because I got a great deal on these from PSA ( $300 / 500rds. ..way back when ) 
5th photo, 20rds rapid fire 168gr FGMM... most of them went into that ragged hole !! 
6th photo, 10rds Atomic 168gr Nosler 
7th photo, 10rds Maylaisan ball 
8th photo 20rds 2016 MEN ball 
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New Criterion Barrel shooting results...
2nd Target results.... 1st photo, that gawd awful ZQI...19rds shown, 20 fired... the first was so off my zero.. I had to find it. Much better performance then before... but still kind of .. well, sucks. 
2nd photo, 8rds more 168gr FGMM , I was curious if my grouping had shifted after the first ZQI shot... so this was of the fly. 
3rd photo, 20rds Fed. AE 168gr M1A .thumb.jpg.3773c484bbbf1d0312fb5055ccb92bf8.jpg)
4th photo, 10rds Winc. 147gr White Box ball .thumb.jpg.0479fddb0859a3d988b6b509ee4def89.jpg)
5th photo, 16rds '83 Hirt. ball, boxer primed .thumb.jpg.75e5002b1501c2046b3b2516cfd5d974.jpg)
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New Criterion Barrel shooting results...
3rd Target... 1st photo, 10rds South African Ball , the stuff from those tubs. .thumb.jpg.6bb186d87d0e23f6474d1b49604ed2c4.jpg)
2nd photo, 19 of 20 shown, Current CBC / Magtech Ball.. kind of all over the place photo missing the one off target on top .thumb.jpg.bb5bf377269d8385ad5c61e0b4d94216.jpg)
3rd photo, 9rds PMC XTAC 168gr Match .thumb.jpg.53837650d54036e063b691937d34d2d8.jpg)
4th photo, 15rds ? , Hornady Steel Match 155gr OTM... I have gotten great results with this and the .75gr .223 load.. so steel cased ammo can shot. .thumb.jpg.b71aef6d1b0e7895bfce593798e0c6f8.jpg)
5th photo, 20rds '76 Hirt. Berdan Primed. 
6th photo, 10rds, Aust. Outback 165gr SGK, soft point. .thumb.jpg.41a126a907bed010251800215dbb45a2.jpg)
7th photo , 20rds, Sanitized DAG 
8th photo, Eagle Eye 175gr.... only 5 shoots... the barrel and this did not play nicely together... almost pierced primers and obvious signs of pressure. More photos later. 
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New Criterion Barrel shooting results...
4th Target... 1st photo, 20rds Port surplus Ball, also from way back when. 
2nd photo, 14rds Hornady brass cased 155gr Match 
3rd photo, 10rds Horn. TAP ELD 168gr "AR" 
4th photo, 10rds SSA 165gr Accubond.. this shot MUCH better ( through the Criterion ) then both the OEM barrels results . 
5th photo, another spot check with 168gr FGMM 
6th photo, 10rds Fed. MSR Fusion... IMHO excellent performance from and great bonded bullet. 
7th photo, Fed. 130gr OTM.. labeled T762TNB1 
8th photo, 18rds SSA 150gr Accubond ... much better ! ... mislabeled as DAG 
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New Criterion Barrel shooting results...
5th Target... long day of shooting and I could tell I was getting tired. Also a special note about the last group pictured... 7rds of 168Gr FGMM... this group was from a filthy barrel... and the Criterion barrel could still shoot as good as when it was clean. 1st photo, 10rds Black Hills 175gr TMK 
2nd photo, 10rds Speer / CCI 150gr Gold Dot 
3rd photo, some more cheap Malaysian berdan primed 
4th photo, 10rds Speer / CCI 168gr Gold Dot 
5th Photo, Sanitized DAG again.... still holding its accuracy , even from the dirty barrel. 
6th photo, another FGMM group, rapid fire. 
7th photo, Horn. TAP ELD 168gr Precision 
8th photo, This, to me is outstanding performance from the Criterion barrel.... final group of the day... after a full 30cal can, and 1 quart ziplock bag worth of spent ammo cases.... The Criterion barrel still shot like it was sparkling clean. 7rds 168gr FGMM..( I stopped with 7 because I thought I'd fubar such a good group ! Lol ) 
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New Criterion Barrel shooting results...
The Eagle Eye 175gr SMK ammo issues.... Sadly, this ammo and barrel combo didn't like each other. Clear signs of over-pressure... and pierced primers, ( I can blow air through each case ) the little primer indentation disc wasn't allowed to "pop out". ( You can't see it clearly in the photos ) I will attribute the fact that I didn't have popped primers and those little disc's to a very heavy buffer ( 9.3oz), the added spring weight with the BCG closed from the Tubbs spring and an adjustable gas block... those 3 parts "retarded" the typically violent/ rapid cyclic action of the OEM configuration by just enough milliseconds to allow BCG movement and extraction at a more moderate chamber pressure. 
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Quoted:
An antitilt follower is fine with curved mags, but on a straight 20 mag, the follower must tilt. An M14 mag spring seems to fix the cheap Brownells mags causing bolt overs on my gen1. The Brownells issue happens on the last 1-3 rounds. The base of the cartridges wont rise to the top..... I have a few CProducts 20s on the way to test.... Keep up your hard work. Thank you sir! Thank you ! |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - PA10 Nitrated 18", Gen 2 observations / fixes... Criterion barrel results 10 Sept '17. (Page 2 of 5)
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