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Posted: 2/11/2018 8:35:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
I do, indeed. It's a warm winter and on top of tired eyes all the AZ crap is in bloom again and the allergies are killing me. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: You're quoting and talking to yourself, you need a break.  Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 8:42:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Defender3 What material do they run those bullets out of ? Asking for a friend ... Sorry Mark, but I couldn’t locate a single definitive answer on the Warners. One review said they were a copper alloy, another said they were a copper solid monolithic, a third says they are monometallic, but later calls them a solid “copper alloy,” and a fourth says alloy. So, it’s 3 to 1 that they are an alloy. I creeped their Facebook page, but there was just too much stuff on there and I didn't find an answer. FWIW: Announced here, but no details on composition: A clue here from a South African producer of monolithic projectiles. But here they say they are the only solid red copper monolithic bullet used for long range shooting. Long range only said they were monometallic, but when you go down to “load development,” they call them a copper alloy. Here's a picture from the end of the article showing a flowered flatline. I’m not a metallurgist so I can’t tell you if that’s was solid copper looks like or not. Great data in the article though. 
Cutting edge states they are making rounds from solid bar stock: A guy making solids on his CNC:  CNC Bullet Turning Cutting Edge Bullets - Maybe the Swiss lathe referenced in the Peregrine article?:  Bullet Being Machined On A Swiss-Style CNC Lathe Or maybe this one?  Match/Tactical Bullet being machined on a Swiss-style CNC Lathe Bonus – AR 15 Bolt machining:  Swiss CNC AR-15 Bolt Demo made on a Swistek AB42 complete ETA - Let's see if Mark's OCD has been triggered and he has to go out and buy a Swistek. 
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Posted: 2/11/2018 9:28:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: @LaRue_Tactical Sorry Mark, but I couldn't locate a single definitive answer on the Warner's. One review said they were a copper alloy, another said they were a copper solid monolithic, a third says they are monometallic, but later calls them a solid "copper alloy," and a fourth says alloy. So, it's 3 to 1 that they are an alloy. I creeped their Facebook page, but there was just too much stuff on there and I didn't find an answer. FWIW: Announced here, but no details on composition: A clue here from a South African producer of monolithic projectiles: But here they say they are the only solid red copper monolithic bullet used for long range shooting. Long range only said they were monometallic, but when you go down to "load development," they call them a copper alloy. Here's a picture from the end of the article showing a flowered flatline. I'm not a metallurgist so I can't tell you if that's was solid copper looks like or not. Great data in the article though. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/Flowered_flatline-449101.jpg Cutting edge states they are making rounds from solid bar stock: A guy making solids on his CNC:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZeAVrXpS_g
Cutting Edge Bullets - Maybe the Swiss lathe referenced in the Peregrine article?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfDObdkxFOA
Or maybe this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IC6gYPlWUg
Bonus AR 15 Bolt machining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkn3P2Z5m5U why haven't you take these bullets to a lab to have them sliced/diced/analyzed? 
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Posted: 2/11/2018 9:30:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Two weeks... |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 9:33:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#5]
A good starting point for finding out which alloy, is a hardness test
I am thinking this because I highly doubt that they heat treat bullets. I would have to inspect the surface finish on a flatline for post heat treat cosmetic finishing, to eliminate that(heat treat). They look like they have a machine finish.... |
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Posted: 2/12/2018 7:54:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
I do, indeed. It's a warm winter and on top of tired eyes all the AZ crap is in bloom again and the allergies are killing me. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
I do, indeed. It's a warm winter and on top of tired eyes all the AZ crap is in bloom again and the allergies are killing me. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. Originally Posted By DuneShoot:
With all of your recent bullet/cases/o-give OCD nerdness why haven't you take these bullets to a lab to have them sliced/diced/analyzed? Originally Posted By mettee:
A good starting point for finding out which alloy, is a hardness test I am thinking this because I highly doubt that they heat treat bullets. I would have to inspect the surface finish on a flatline for post heat treat cosmetic finishing, to eliminate that(heat treat). They look like they have a machine finish.... |
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Posted: 2/12/2018 10:46:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
ETA - Let's see if Mark's OCD has been triggered and he has to go out and buy a Swistek. |
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Posted: 2/12/2018 3:42:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: I can only imagine the cost! Supposedly the lathe was $200,000; amortize that, operating costs then profit, which adds up to (in Warner’s case) $1.30 a projectile. Seems Mark could tinker around with the concept and make a run for himself, but flat lines probably can’t be used for hunting since they don’t expand, so they are longer range only. On the other hand, a FL supposedly shoots like a bullet in the next lower weight class with the next higher BC. I’ll have to leave that to a more industrious OCD’er. Look at the video of the solids being made; it looks like they’re using a copper stock. I would assume you would spec the stock from your supplier and then process it. I would doubt you’d need any other processing, except a QC step. I think the flatline in a gasser would be a great combo. Or a bullet with those parameters so to speak. Yes, I agree, it has to be sourced in rod form. I was reading a little bit about the various copper alloys last night and there are a few ranges that seem to have properties that would work. |
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Posted: 2/12/2018 3:45:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: I have in my possession a room with 16 CNC screw machines. 
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Posted: 2/12/2018 4:06:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
What did frank from the hide use at 1000 for a hold, it was 6 or less mills, so that tells me its moving. And if my memory serves me right the drift was low as well. I think the flatline in a gasser would be a great combo. Or a bullet with those parameters so to speak. Yes, I agree, it has to be sourced in rod form. I was reading a little bit about the various copper alloys last night and there are a few ranges that seem to have properties that would work. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: I can only imagine the cost! Supposedly the lathe was $200,000; amortize that, operating costs then profit, which adds up to (in Warner’s case) $1.30 a projectile. Seems Mark could tinker around with the concept and make a run for himself, but flat lines probably can’t be used for hunting since they don’t expand, so they are longer range only. On the other hand, a FL supposedly shoots like a bullet in the next lower weight class with the next higher BC. I’ll have to leave that to a more industrious OCD’er. Look at the video of the solids being made; it looks like they’re using a copper stock. I would assume you would spec the stock from your supplier and then process it. I would doubt you’d need any other processing, except a QC step. I think the flatline in a gasser would be a great combo. Or a bullet with those parameters so to speak. Yes, I agree, it has to be sourced in rod form. I was reading a little bit about the various copper alloys last night and there are a few ranges that seem to have properties that would work. |
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Posted: 2/12/2018 5:06:04 PM EDT
[#11]
It will be interesting to see where it lands in the gasser, BTO vs COAL
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Posted: 2/12/2018 7:35:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#12]
Today's update is a new arrival, albeit probably one that will have to be sold off. I agreed to buy an older model Ohaus 10-0-5 precision beam scale (also sold by Lyman as the M-5) before deciding to ditch the Chargemaster and go with an A&D. This beam scale has two positives, the first being it was made in the USA (models shifted to Mexico and then China) and it's been fine tuned by Scott Parker. This beam scale is good to a kernel of powder! I was going to use it to verify my Chargemaster, but I've since purchased the A&D FX-120i combo, so I think the Ohaus is, sadly, OBE.
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Posted: 2/12/2018 9:47:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#13]
@LaRue_Tactical
Mark, I had some extra time and finally found Projectile with Enhanced Ballistic Efficiency. The USPTO application is here. Click the Images link and then click Full Pages to see all with diagrams. Over to you; I'm back to wasting time, but put me down for a couple hundred.
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Posted: 2/12/2018 9:56:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#14]
DoubleTap
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Posted: 2/12/2018 11:04:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Today's update is a new arrival, albeit probably one that will have to be sold off. I agreed to buy an older model Ohaus 10-0-5 precision beam scale (also sold by Lyman as the M-5) before deciding to ditch the Chargemaster and go with an A&D. This bean scale has two positives, the first being it was made in the USA (models shifted to Mexico and then China) and it's been fine tuned by Scott Parker. This beam scale is good to a kernel of powder! I was going to use it to verify my Chargemaster, but I've since purchased the A&D FX-120i combo, so I think the Ohaus is, sadly, OBE. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6625_JPG-447737.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6627_JPG-447738.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6628_JPG-447733.jpg 
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Posted: 2/13/2018 4:31:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Alright, today's update is a bit of a cop out as I had a job offer, then not, then again, then not, so I've been busy actually trying to score employment!
Here's a good reminder of the .260's abilities from none other than The LaRue Accuracy Report; where you can see a one mile 260 shot on steel on the cover and .260 goodness on pages 36 and 60. Passive dehumidifier doing its job in the safe: 
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Posted: 2/13/2018 7:57:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Alright, today's update is a bit of a cop out as I had a job offer, then not, then again, then not, so I've been busy actually trying to score employment! Here's a good reminder of the .260's abilities from none other than The LaRue Accuracy Report; where you can see a one mile 260 shot on steel on the cover and .260 goodness on pages 36 and 60. Passive dehumidifier doing its job in the safe: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6629_JPG-450968.jpg
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Posted: 2/13/2018 7:57:59 PM EDT
[#18]
checking in
I like those types of driers as well. I put three in there, with the amount of material that soaks up moisture in a safe, I wanted to be safe
carpet, drywall, wood... |
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Posted: 2/13/2018 7:58:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SecretSquirell:
Didn't know you could get MC Fleshlights.
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Posted: 2/13/2018 8:04:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
....but now you just ordered one Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
Didn't know you could get MC Fleshlights. 
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Posted: 2/13/2018 8:34:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#21]
I leave the thread for a minute and look what happens.
Costco rules BTW - hot dog and a coke for a buck sixty-five: 
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Posted: 2/13/2018 8:37:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store.
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Posted: 2/13/2018 8:39:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
I leave the thread for a minute and look what happens. Costco rules BTW - hot dog and a coke for a buck sixty-five: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6289_JPG-394595.jpg 
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Posted: 2/13/2018 8:45:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SecretSquirell:
No peppers, no celery salt, no onions, no pickle. And "Coke" in a Pepsi cup. Oh, and Mark needs to stop teasing us on his Instagram page with 1911 /2011 stuff! @LaRue_Tactial Mark, didn't you make a run of small 1911 parts at some point? |
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Posted: 2/13/2018 10:12:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
I don't care what it is, it's a "coke," plain and simple. Oh, and Mark needs to stop teasing us on his Instagram page with 1911 /2011 stuff! @LaRue_Tactial Mark, didn't you make a run of small 1911 parts at some point? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
No peppers, no celery salt, no onions, no pickle. And "Coke" in a Pepsi cup. Oh, and Mark needs to stop teasing us on his Instagram page with 1911 /2011 stuff! @LaRue_Tactial Mark, didn't you make a run of small 1911 parts at some point? |
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Posted: 2/13/2018 10:29:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
I leave the thread for a minute and look what happens. Costco rules BTW - hot dog and a coke for a buck sixty-five: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6289_JPG-394595.jpg That aint no coke
Costco screwed the pooch on that one bringing pepsi in. The dogs, they are still good though.
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Posted: 2/13/2018 10:30:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 1:45:26 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 2/14/2018 4:30:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pjatton:
Don't give a damn!
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Posted: 2/14/2018 4:30:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Rainy day here, makes me wish I had everything set up to load already.
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Posted: 2/14/2018 6:28:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
GBPSPE Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store.
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:06:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:07:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#33]
Today's installment is another precision tool, the Bob Green Comparator. I found one on a site for sale at a great price and jumped on it as I thought there could be benefits from having a precision tool that would enhance BTO accuracy so I could better seat the bullets.
Knowing that the bore of a .260 barrel is 0.256 and the groves are 0.264, I decided to measure the Hornady comparator against the BGC: Hornady: 
BCG: 
Hopefully the BGC will allow a more precise BTO so when I do seating, I can better control the jump. I then measured the Warner Flat Lines for BTO with the BGC. As you recall, I previously weight sorted all the WFLs to gauge consistency. Bryan Litz commented on the bearing surface of the .260 in a weight sorting thread: "The problem will be in the BC variation that accompanies the shape variation. Typically, if the bullets have less than 3 to 5 thousandths of variation in base to ogive, it's very difficult to tell the difference in group size at 1000. If the variation is greater than 0.005", then you might see some benefit in vertical group size from sorting them. Best of luck, -Bryan" So, in terms of weight sorting, you may not notice any significant differences at distance, of course, unless there was a real outlier. I'm going to continue to weigh bullets, but more to find the flyer in the group rather than weight sorting them. I took all the WFLs to BTO sort with the exception of the one WFL that was well under the average of the others. 
The WFLs varied from a -.003 to a +006 from the zero I established. The majority fell within .003 of +.003 so I think I have some good data for when I do seating using a soon to arrive Whidden click adjustable micrometer seating die and a check using a soon to arrive Redding Instant Comparator (which I got on sale at a great price). 
It's Valentine's Day and still not too late: 
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:09:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
bad time to tell you that I know how to build that for a lot less lol This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it
https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it
https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg
I heard your production schedule was "two-weeks," I just couldn't wait....... |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:25:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Don't worry, you can keep living vicariously through me... Are you getting rid of the Uhaus? Might be interested, always wanted a non electronic scale |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:25:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
bad time to tell you that I know how to build that for a lot less lol This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it
https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:37:36 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Deal. Are you getting rid of the Uhaus? Might be interested, always wanted a non electronic scale Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: Don't worry, you can keep living vicariously through me... Are you getting rid of the Uhaus? Might be interested, always wanted a non electronic scale |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:38:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee: epic fail
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:49:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Probably, but you should know it's pretty pricey due to it's desirability (older US model) and the Scott Parker tuning. Not trying to scare you away, but this isn't a $50 eBay scale. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 7:50:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Fixed it for ya. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:21:08 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
bad time to tell you that I know how to build that for a lot less lol This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it
https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Back on track - ordered one of these - was on sale in the ARF store. This was probably a hair over $600 but should do a mile+ (video and control) and dont have to carry it
https://i.imgur.com/VbgciJhl.jpg
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Posted: 2/15/2018 6:58:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#42]
Today's update is simply some arrivals at the estate. Both my 260's like the Bergers and Lapuas, but the VLD Bergers are out just about everywhere so I got another 100 of the Scenars. The Wilson tool will be used to test a different seating method that could be more precise than a press-based die, and one that I'll test having sorted the flat lines using the BCG. I have a 21st Century Hydro press on the way, so in a week or so I should be ready to try some precision seating. Unfortunately, my Whidden micro-click adjustable dies also shipped, so I have a couple of methods I can compare, but I also might have a few left over tools.
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Posted: 2/16/2018 2:54:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Its 23:53, so that makes it like 0300 in D3 land, where is todays update already
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Posted: 2/16/2018 8:49:52 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Its 23:53, so that makes it like 0300 in D3 land, where is todays update already |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 9:48:08 AM EDT
[#45]
Okay, here's an update for the early birds. It's a facebook post by the Army Marksmanship Unit dealing with weight sorting brass. Basically they said, after sorting and shooting 50,000rds of LC, that they're comfortable with a 1gr total variance.
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Posted: 2/16/2018 2:16:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Working overnights again? Sorry, just can't get off east coast time. Be patient, todays update will be posted this afternoon, then I take the weekend off! 
Im patiently waiting to see what happens with your BTO on the gasser. The bolt portion is good to know as well, but my skin in that game is thin. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 2:19:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Oh yeah, I always have to turn in those TPS reports.
Im patiently waiting to see what happens with your BTO on the gasser. The bolt portion is good to know as well, but my skin in that game is thin. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: Working overnights again? Sorry, just can't get off east coast time. Be patient, todays update will be posted this afternoon, then I take the weekend off!
Im patiently waiting to see what happens with your BTO on the gasser. The bolt portion is good to know as well, but my skin in that game is thin. I ordered a 5/16x32 tap so I can take a fired case and drill and tap it to use on the Hornady tool to see if there are differences in the measurements as the case would then be fire formed and fit the throat better. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 2:28:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: I may work the BTO with the new tools on the bolt gun as I think it would be easier. Then I was going to take what I learned and apply it to the gasser. Even using the Hornady tool, trying to get the bullet in the lands measurement correct is a b$tch. I ordered a 5/16x32 tap so I can take a fired case and drill and tap it to use on the Hornady tool to see if there are differences in the measurements as the case would then be fire formed and fit the throat better. Has anyone done any loading with the 143 ELD-X? I dont think I have seen it. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 5:33:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Alrighty then, it's time for today's update, which is a fail.
The Redding Instant Indicator arrived at the ranch and I thought I'd clean it up and give it a test drive. It arrived well packed and I opted for version that comes with the dial indicator as I got it on sale for the price of the version without! 
I unpacked it, cleaned it and noted it performs a variety of different measurements, not just the finished BTO I had intended. It even comes with a spec 260 case that is very beefy for headspacing. 
I decided to check some of the Hornady 130gr ELD-Ms and set the die in the Forster press and sum-of-a-b$tch, I never accounted for the design of the Forster against the operation of the Redding. Gosh darn, ^%$#%$#%$#^$%^. Now what, I need to go buy a Redding Turret press? I looked on-line and a single stage press is like $140 and there are none for sale on the local used forums. Son of a ^*&%*^%$&^%(&^(*^)*(%%^$&^%$..... 
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Posted: 2/16/2018 6:56:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
Alrighty then, it's time for today's update, which is a fail. The Redding Instant Indicator arrived at the ranch and I thought I'd clean it up and give it a test drive. It arrived well packed and I opted for version that comes with the dial indicator as I got it on sale for the price of the version without! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6668_JPG-453795.jpg I unpacked it, cleaned it and noted it performs a variety of different measurements, not just the finished BTO I had intended. It even comes with a spec 260 case that is very beefy for headspacing. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6669_JPG-453796.jpg I decided to check some of the Hornady 130gr ELD-Ms and set the die in the Forster press and sum-of-a-b$tch, I never accounted for the design of the Forster against the operation of the Redding. Gosh darn, ^%$#%$#%$#^$%^. Now what, I need to go buy a Redding Turret press? I looked on-line and a single stage press is like $140 and there are none for sale on the local used forums. Son of a ^*&%*^%$&^%(&^(*^)*(%%^$&^%$..... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6670_JPG-453794.jpg |
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