Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 6/14/2009 7:48:48 AM EST
guys...

i was searching on gunbroker and found a rifle that was for sale at a gun shop about an hour away from where i live....the shop had a "no reserve" listing and a starting price.....they also noted that the rifle was for sale in the store as well and that they reserve the right to end the auction early if it sells in store...pretty standard so far, i assume...

i call the store...guy answers...i ask about the rifle, explain i am close by and want to come look at and possibly purchase it...he says "its not in the store, you cant come by and buy it...but you can make me an offer" i ask if his no resrve price is what i could buy it for, and he says "you are not gonna walk out of here with it for that price"

what gives...how can he list it as a no reserve price online,but i cant walk in there and buy it for the same price?

does this make any sense to anyone?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:13:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 8:13:49 AM EST by kylestyle]
what shop is this...is it by chance that place in tucker?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:27:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 8:30:35 AM EST by engineer2001]
He's fully expecting that it will go for much more than the initial price. Gunbroker is full of fools these days who all act like the guns are drying up. He's planning to make a roll of cash off the sale online. He has a right to sell it to the highest bidder, and it sounds like he's holding out for more than the initial price for sure.

I would bid as much as I'm willing to pay online. He can't refuse to sell it to you if you win for a low price, or you can (and should) light him up with bad feedback. If it's not in the store, you don't have to worry about that part about someone buying it in person. Although, what he'll probably do is yank it at the last minute, lie and say someone bought it in the store, and not give you the good deal. I'd still give him bad feedback for doing that. It's pretty much standard that once the reserve price (if there is one) is met online, you put the product in the back and hold it for the winner. With no reserve, he's guaranteed to have a winner if anyone bids.

Did you give him your name when you called? If not, I'd just bid, win, and go pick it up and not mention that I had called. If he's just fishing for offers and wouldn't quote a price, I'd probably just go elsewhere and not deal with him at all, now or in the future.

I did this same type of thing with a place in East Point. They had a WASR on Gunbroker a couple of years ago, and I won it for $280 (new, with the accessory kit, two mags, and everything). No one even bid against me, so I got it for the initial price. The guy had two, and he closed the other auction before anyone could bid and put it on the rack with a $500 price tag on it. He said he wasn't happy with the price I was paying, but I didn't remember to bring the world's smallest violin with me to play sad music for him while he talked. Got it for $280 plus tax, and we ran to the car. We literally ran - holy crap, we thought we were going to get mugged, with the gangsta guys all trying to hold it and saying they wanted it - "I like that right therr - it's got a folding pod." (It had a crappy Tapco T6 stock that they thought was a "folding pod"). Anyway, long story short, we got it, and we got it for the low price on Gunbroker. Gunbroker rules say he has to sell it for that if you win it for that, or you can post bad feedback and go elsewhere.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:33:16 AM EST
not gonna mention any names or products....dont want to rattle any cages or bash anyone if i dont have to....

as far as buying it online...if i am local does he have to ship it anyway? what about taxes etc? it would be my first time to buy a firearm online...thanks...
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:39:42 AM EST
I don't bid on any items that can be sold in the store when using gunbroker. It seems to me they put that in there half the time as a trap door to cancel the auction "legally" without having to see you the gun at the winning bid price. It is not like htey need to prove they sold it to someone else, and nothing stops them from relisting it again and again until they get the price they are after.

Leaving negative feedback is appropriate, but it won't stop them from doing their tricks unless enough people complain. As other people reading the reviews will say "Well he siad he may sell it in the store, and he found a buyer, so what's the big deal?"

I have had a bunch of issues with the "Guy in Tucker" who I will leave nameless. I have won a few bids before from him, came in to pick up the gun that they claimed was in stock, only to have to wait 4-8 weeks for it to be shipped from the manufacturer. This happened to me on two Grendel uppers. The wait time for Grendels nowadays is like 4-6 months.

If someone says it is in the store and it is not, I would red flag it and go somewhere else. Any gun dealer can list a new gun, and get it shipped from the manufacturer. But to lie and say they have it in the store, and then tell you it is not there, then run and run away fast.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:40:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 8:44:16 AM EST by engineer2001]
You'll owe taxes either way (shipped or picked up), since the sale is taking place in your state. He's not required to ship it - he can sell face to face, but he's not required to do that either. He can ship to an FFL for the transfer and not do the FTF sale if he doesn't want to or if you prefer it that way. If he seems like a bunghole, I'd just have him ship it to a friendlier FFL and pick it up and pay the ~$20 transfer fee plus shipping to avoid him.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:45:32 AM EST
thanks for the info...it is a used firearm i am looking at, thats why i wanted to check it out first...

looking back at the listing it does say "most" of their items are in stock and if you bid to let them know and they will pull it off the shelves until the bid closes....maybe this thing is on consignment?

any other ideas?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:33:25 AM EST
Since he's local and sounds like a douche, have it shipped to his nearest competitor that you like to do business w/.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:37:07 PM EST
nice....maybe w should set up a sting? lol
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:02:30 PM EST
2000 lbs
40x2
=


I went to a local shop and found out that this shop was also the gunbroker seller that had the firearm I was looking for. I asked him if he would sell it to me at the price that I won it at and then allow me to come pick it up to avoid shipping/transfer fees. He said he could not do that because he did not own the gunshop and they were allowing him to do business there. Made sense, so I bought it somewhere else cheaper.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:36:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:04:19 PM EST by treedawg]
Here's a little 411 on Gunbroker.

If the item listed meets the reserve the seller can not cancel the auction no matter what they tell you in the auction. Who ever has the high bid when the seller closes the auction will be listed as the winner of the item if the reserve has been met.

I also have items listed on GB for sale at my retail location. I do not have 10,000 guns in my inventory and I'm going to sell a gun local so long as it has not met the reserve on GB. All of my auctions have a reserve and a "Buy it now price" so the item will not sold out from under you.

People are welcome and encouraged to come in the shop and complete a transaction in person so they can save shipping and transfer fees.

That is how I chose to do business. I'm sure there are better ways but this has worked well for me.

TD

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:09:33 PM EST
where is your shop at?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:28:18 PM EST
I'm located in Dublin, GA about 60 miles SE of Macon

TD
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:20:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
He's fully expecting that it will go for much more than the initial price. Gunbroker is full of fools these days who all act like the guns are drying up. He's planning to make a roll of cash off the sale online. He has a right to sell it to the highest bidder, and it sounds like he's holding out for more than the initial price for sure.

I would bid as much as I'm willing to pay online. He can't refuse to sell it to you if you win for a low price, or you can (and should) light him up with a breach of contract lawsuit. If it's not in the store, you don't have to worry about that part about someone buying it in person. Although, what he'll probably do is yank it at the last minute, lie and say someone bought it in the store, and not give you the good deal. I'd still give him bad feedback for doing that. It's pretty much standard that once the reserve price (if there is one) is met online, you put the product in the back and hold it for the winner. With no reserve, he's guaranteed to have a winner if anyone bids.

Did you give him your name when you called? If not, I'd just bid, win, and go pick it up and not mention that I had called. If he's just fishing for offers and wouldn't quote a price, I'd probably just go elsewhere and not deal with him at all, now or in the future.


I absolutely believe it's a bait and switch no reserve but it sold if I don't get what I want. If you bid and win and they pull that I'd pay the $70 to file in state court and require them to produce the 4473 showing who they sold the rifle to. Damn thing has a serial number and fed paper work as long as your arm and someone needs to hold the shifty ones to task!

Now if they hold out on the auction for it to go high, I under stand that too. but with no reserve someone will be taking it home. Get your bid in.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:21:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
nice....maybe w should set up a sting? lol


I think you should. This hurts everyone.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:02:47 AM EST
i went back and looked at this guys feedback...he moves a lot of guns and related items...i went back a week or so which was a lot of items...the majority were items with no reserve that were bid on by one person, one bid for the listed no reserve price....and they won the item for that one bid, no reserve price....just like the item i am looking at....

so i am still confused...i dont know if this is an honest guy, or a bait and switch deal...
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:05:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
so i am still confused...i dont know if this is an honest guy, or a bait and switch deal...


You probably won't know until he bails on you, if you win and he bails.

I think legal fees would negate any savings if you sued him for breach of contract, right?
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:26:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
so i am still confused...i dont know if this is an honest guy, or a bait and switch deal...


You probably won't know until he bails on you, if you win and he bails.

I think legal fees would negate any savings if you sued him for breach of contract, right?


Depends...
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:48:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By DKing:
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
so i am still confused...i dont know if this is an honest guy, or a bait and switch deal...


You probably won't know until he bails on you, if you win and he bails.

I think legal fees would negate any savings if you sued him for breach of contract, right?


Depends...


Depends on what??

If he wins and the guy bails isn't that breach of contract??

Or do on-line auctions not fall under Ga laws??

I do on-line auctions, but have not had a in-state saler bail on me yet.
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 6:51:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/15/2009 6:59:48 AM EST by treedawg]
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
i went back and looked at this guys feedback...he moves a lot of guns and related items...i went back a week or so which was a lot of items...the majority were items with no reserve that were bid on by one person, one bid for the listed no reserve price....and they won the item for that one bid, no reserve price....just like the item i am looking at....

so i am still confused...i dont know if this is an honest guy, or a bait and switch deal...


If the seller has good feedback and the auction you are interested in looks like a typical sale then I don't understand why you are worried??? If this guy has only been listing and selling $18.00 Special K magazines and you are looking at $2500.00 Winchester he listed then I might be able to understand why you are being so cautious.

If online deals make you uncomfortable you might want to limit yourself to local FTF deals only.

Pay with a CC and you can always dispute the charges if the deal goes south.

TD

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 7:01:36 AM EST
Like treedawg said. Once an item has met the reserve, or had a bid, on a no reserve auction, Gunbroker will not let him close the auction. If you win the auction and he refuses to sell it to you for the winning bid. I would think you would have grounds to pursue legal action [Paging DKing] At the very least you can report him to Gunbroker and leave him neg. feedback
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 7:28:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By borderbandit86:
Depends on what??


I think he meant it depends on what it took to win the case (legal fees). Everyone agrees that selling an item via Gunbroker and not actually selling the item for that price is breach of contract. How much time/money would it take to win a case against the seller in court (or get a settlement outside of court)? More than the money he would have saved over just going to another seller and paying more to start with? That was the question that got the "depends" answer.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 1:00:34 PM EST
went to the store today...rifle was as advertised with a price tag of $100 over his gunbroker price....dealers were nice to me and showed me a few guns i wanted to look at with no gripes.....
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 1:19:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
went to the store today...rifle was as advertised with a price tag of $100 over his gunbroker price....dealers were nice to me and showed me a few guns i wanted to look at with no gripes.....


So he lied to you and it was in the store after all?
That alone would make me walk away on principle.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:00:09 PM EST
So what are you going to do?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:11:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By DKing:
So what are you going to do?


I think that he should either, tell us the name of the shop, OR tell us what weapon he was looking at so we could figure out what shop it is and eveyone go tell the shop to get fucked.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:17:54 PM EST
not sure yet....i did send them an email thru gunbroker and one of the questions asked was if the rifle was in store and could a prospective customer look at it and they said it was and could be looked at....if i dont get this thing or decide not to bid i wont lose any sleep over it...i will let you guys know whats up when i decide what i want to do....
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:34:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By New4John:
So he lied to you and it was in the store after all?
That alone would make me walk away on principle.


This right here.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:39:26 PM EST
So if someone cheats you the answer is to let them get away with it. Good to know!

You don't walk away, you take some personal responsibility and make sure no one else falls into the same hole
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:52:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By DKing:
You don't walk away, you take some personal responsibility and make sure no one else falls into the same hole


How would he do that in this case?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:24:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 8:26:35 PM EST by LaRue556]
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Originally Posted By DKing:
You don't walk away, you take some personal responsibility and make sure no one else falls into the same hole


How would he do that in this case?


Alert GB to this guy, spread the word of warning to others.

Possible legal steps, but I don't know anything in that field.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:45:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 8:59:15 PM EST by engineer2001]
Alert GB that he called the guy and was told that it wasn't in the shop, then he went in and it was? Maybe he brought it in or had the owner (if consignment) bring it in for viewing because he was getting calls about it?

So far, there's just a shadow of wrongdoing (seems shady). He hasn't done anything wrong yet. I'd walk away, just because I have learned over the years that things that seem shady usually are, and you should go with first instinct. But tell Gunbroker and others that you "think" he may be a bad guy? Legal steps? Really?

Congress is feeling the same way as the "report this guy to some authority because we don't like him" crowd. They said on the news today that Congress is having hearings on why cell phone companies charge so much for text messages. It only costs them 0.6 cents to send one, but they charge 25 cents. That's price gouging! The news had a teenage girl and her mom, holding a bill. The teenager said she sent 100 texts per day at least, and she "didn't think about how much the overages would cost." They were stunned when it cost them money, even though they had an unlimited text plan available and chose not to take it. While Congress is at it, they should investigate how soft drinks only cost restaurants like 20 cents, but they charge $3, and the unsweet tea costs them even less. Why, it's highway robbery!!

If no one was allowed to make a profit, there would be no incentive to ever sell anything. The guy is trying to sell on GunBroker to make money (obviously at least $100 over his starting bid). If an unprovable shadow of wrongdoing was all it took to publicly castigate a seller and get him/her in trouble, I wouldn't want to live in that kind of society. If he sold it at a low price online then bailed, okay - he's a crook. So far, the OP hasn't even bid on it or anything, right? Did I miss where he bid and won, then the guy bailed on him, or something?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 3:25:22 AM EST
You're right, I wasn't thinking too much to this specific case.

But just in general, If I spot a pitfall in the woods I'd tell people I see about it to make sure they know.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 4:36:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 4:37:59 AM EST by DKing]
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Originally Posted By DKing:
You don't walk away, you take some personal responsibility and make sure no one else falls into the same hole


How would he do that in this case?


Bid on the item making sure it's well under the sale price at the shop.
Win.
Contact seller with payment to have it shipped, record the conversation.
Get told it's sold. File a suit in state court for $80 and demand in the discovery proof of who the item was sold to including a copy of the 4473.
When they refuse file a motion to compel discovery in camera which will negate their federal law argument.
When they cannot produce it get a summary judgment.
Publish the results both in the local area and notify gunbroker. To the extend there may be falsifying of federal documents (4473) get his FFL pulled.
Make sure no one else falls in this hole and make sure no one else tries this scam.

If we lose the sanctity of contracts, then this nation is going to hell in a hand basket and the last people to be pulling this shit is gun people. Although in my experience they are often the first! Engineer you know it's not about the price. If he put $10 million on it no one would demand he sells it for less. But when he puts it up for auction with no reserve to get around the fees he cannot abrogate his contract because he does not like it...
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:03:14 AM EST
Okay, but what makes you think he's going to break the contract? What if it goes down like this?

Place a bid on Gunbroker well under the shop price,
Win for that price,
Go in to pick it up, guy is a dick and says "Hell no, I don't have to transfer face to face - nowhere does Gunbroker say that, so you owe me shipping and handling costs as specified in the auction,"
Buyer is forced to transfer to another FFL and pay shipping and handling (handling could be any amount),
Gun costs more than if he had just bought it somewhere else, and no one broke ANY contracts.

Most items on Gunbroker simply state that the shipping and handling costs will be paid by the buyer. Some list a flat fee for shipping, but no one mentions handling. It also doesn't state anywhere on the auction that he HAS to transfer FTF, unless he listed that as an option, and most don't.

See what I mean? You deal with a dick, and you get dicked (legally, so there is no recourse other than bad feedback on his Gunbroker seller record, and he can do the same to your buyer record as well). Why deal with a dick to try to set up some kind of sting operation and bait him into breaking a contract? As you no doubt know, there's a differnece between justice for the wronged and trying to seek out criminals. Why be a "police detective" and try to get the guy to do something bad, when he hasn't wronged you at all other than to be rude on the phone?

I guess if that's how you'd play it, that works for me (no skin off my nose). I'd just walk away and not deal with the jerk, since he's done nothing wrong but was rude to me. The visit to the store showed them to be nice and to have the gun in stock - fine there, and all we have to suggest he even would do something wrong is conjecture based on one phone call.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:32:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By engineer2001:
Okay, but what makes you think he's going to break the contract? What if it goes down like this?

Place a bid on Gunbroker well under the shop price,
Win for that price,
Go in to pick it up, guy is a dick and says "Hell no, I don't have to transfer face to face - nowhere does Gunbroker say that, so you owe me shipping and handling costs as specified in the auction,"
Buyer is forced to transfer to another FFL and pay shipping and handling (handling could be any amount),
Gun costs more than if he had just bought it somewhere else, and no one broke ANY contracts.

Most items on Gunbroker simply state that the shipping and handling costs will be paid by the buyer. Some list a flat fee for shipping, but no one mentions handling. It also doesn't state anywhere on the auction that he HAS to transfer FTF, unless he listed that as an option, and most don't.

See what I mean? You deal with a dick, and you get dicked (legally, so there is no recourse other than bad feedback on his Gunbroker seller record, and he can do the same to your buyer record as well). Why deal with a dick to try to set up some kind of sting operation and bait him into breaking a contract? As you no doubt know, there's a differnece between justice for the wronged and trying to seek out criminals. Why be a "police detective" and try to get the guy to do something bad, when he hasn't wronged you at all other than to be rude on the phone?

I guess if that's how you'd play it, that works for me (no skin off my nose). I'd just walk away and not deal with the jerk, since he's done nothing wrong but was rude to me. The visit to the store showed them to be nice and to have the gun in stock - fine there, and all we have to suggest he even would do something wrong is conjecture based on one phone call.


Because right is right and wrong is wrong.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:37:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By DKing:
So if someone cheats you the answer is to let them get away with it. Good to know!

You don't walk away, you take some personal responsibility and make sure no one else falls into the same hole


Nope, I agree with you on letting others know and not tolerate being cheated.
I was specifically talking about being lied to and then still considering giving them my business. Not even a consideration to me.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:10:32 AM EST
well the plot thickens......bidding ended this morning at a time most gun stores would not be open....he was supposed to have another 5 days or so of bidding left.....what does that tell you?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:32:37 AM EST
Are you sure the item in the store was the same s/n? Maybe he wasn't lying. Doubt it, but just maybe.

Personally, I probably would have called him out on it while in the store. Sir, "will you accept <insert gunbroker price here> for this gun? If he says no, then say it's on gunbroker for that amount, why not....."

I've never bought anything from GB, but do look around there often. So can he just end his auction early like that, since the bidding hasn't gotten to where he wants it? Also, don't alot of these guys on gunbroker, just give a high bid under another username to inflate prices or outbid the low bidder? Thought I noticed that one time. The same sellers items, all were bid on by the same username right before the auction closed.

If you aren't going to tell us the shop, at least tell us the item?

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:48:48 AM EST
right now i am waiting to see if he re lists the item.....
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:09:50 AM EST
print out copies of all the web pages...
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:21:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
what gives...how can he list it as a no reserve price online,but i cant walk in there and buy it for the same price?

does this make any sense to anyone?


This makes complete sense to me. The starting price of an auction, even one with no reserve, is not a "buy it now" price. They are completely unrelated. The starting price (with no reserve) is just the current bid price, even if no one has made a bid. You do not get to buy it at that price until the auction ends. It does not matter if you are standing in his store or sitting in your underwear at your computer. If he was willing to sell the item outright then he would have put a "buy it now" price on it. Obviously he was not willing to do that since he did not have a buy it now option. This all seems perfectly normal and standard practice to me. Now, any weirdness about the rifle not being in the store, blah, blah, blah is not related to your original question and could be abnormal or shady.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:33:51 AM EST
where it get interesting is where the store owner says "you can't buy it at that price." that says to me he's not going to honor the sale unless it meets a certain price point. That's a reserve sale and not what is contracted for in the ad...
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 9:51:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 9:53:53 AM EST by engineer2001]
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
well the plot thickens......bidding ended this morning at a time most gun stores would not be open....he was supposed to have another 5 days or so of bidding left.....what does that tell you?


Were there any bids? If not, it tells me he wants to sell it by some other means or raise the price. No bids = he can do that if he wants to.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 10:37:02 AM EST
yep....no one bid....
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 10:39:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By PATRONI:
yep....no one bid....


well then it's all moot.
Top Top