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12/11/2018 1:58:31 AM
Posted: 11/22/2018 12:02:00 PM EST
I've looked through the booklet and googled but cannot seem to find what qualifies for, or disqualifies, a firearm as a pistol.

Barrel length?

Stock?

Wondering how to configure an AR that will qualify and still be useful for home defense.

Thanks
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 3:10:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2018 3:25:38 PM EST by TargetShooter2]
Centerfire pistols or revolvers
using expanding-type bullets, such as lead or copper

10 round mag + 1 in the chamber Total 11 rounds …

https://huntfish.mdc.mo.gov/huntfish/seasons/deer-firearms-alternative-methods

I'm using this one , taking the light off , and a 10 round mag with 60 grn
handloads at 2700 fps ..



TS2
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 4:49:26 PM EST
^ Thanks

I followed your link and ended up at the same site as when I googled. Regrettably it didn't provide any parameters as to what 'is or isn't' a pistol.

Your AR is kind of what I'm looking to have. How long is the barrel? Do you know if there is a maximum length allowed for a barrel?

It'd be awesome if stocks are allowed.

I knew that the mag was limited to 10 rounds. I have a few of those already.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, in fact I hope you are right, but I don't want to screw up and be outside what is allowed.
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 5:11:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
^ Thanks

I followed your link and ended up at the same site as when I googled. Regrettably it didn't provide any parameters as to what 'is or isn't' a pistol.

Your AR is kind of what I'm looking to have. How long is the barrel? Do you know if there is a maximum length allowed for a barrel?

It'd be awesome if stocks are allowed.

I knew that the mag was limited to 10 rounds. I have a few of those already.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, in fact I hope you are right, but I don't want to screw up and be outside what is allowed.
View Quote
stop trying to rewrite what's written … the laws says centerfire , no barrel length ..

your dealing with Pistols ,,, "" Pistols have Braces "" get the stock shit out of your head , you want a stock get a Rifle ..

TS2

pistols does not have stocks .
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 6:33:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TargetShooter2:

stop trying to rewrite what's written … the laws says centerfire , no barrel length ..

your dealing with Pistols ,,, "" Pistols have Braces "" get the stock shit out of your head , you want a stock get a Rifle ..

TS2

pistols does not have stocks .
View Quote
Thanks TS2, I didn't catch that you had a brace, not a stock.

I didn't even know that braces existed until your post.

Google presented a source that did a good job of getting me on track:

https://shwat.com/2016-update-sbr-vs-pistol-with-arm-brace-its-not-just-about-ar-pistols-anymore/

If there are no barrel restrictions and if a stock to brace swap can convert an AR into a pistol... I'm GTG

Link Posted: 11/22/2018 7:54:13 PM EST
If it's sold as a pistol, it's a pistol. Why does everybody have to look for MORE regulations that aren't there??
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 8:07:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
If it's sold as a pistol, it's a pistol. Why does everybody have to look for MORE regulations that aren't there??
View Quote
1] how often, in our country, has the gov't left something un-regulated?

2] what if it is something that isn't sold, but rather built in parts? Apparently an AR lower can become a pistol or a rifle depending upon a brace or a stock.
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 8:15:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:

Thanks TS2, I didn't catch that you had a brace, not a stock.

I didn't even know that braces existed until your post.

Google presented a source that did a good job of getting me on track:

https://shwat.com/2016-update-sbr-vs-pistol-with-arm-brace-its-not-just-about-ar-pistols-anymore/

If there are no barrel restrictions and if a stock to brace swap can convert an AR into a pistol... I'm GTG

View Quote
I'm trying to read between your lines ,,
if you are asking pistols , they use a brace .. Not a Stock period ..

your comment above leaves me to think you don't know the law ..

just so you understand you can NOT take a AR15 rifle with a stock and
put a brace on it and now call it a Legal Pistol ,, the Laws does not work that way .

if you do not Know and understand the Law ,, then you need to go purchase a New
Pistol from a FFL and have the 4473 ran through as a Pistol ,

or you need to build you a pistol with a stripped lower that was 4473 and marked as
other .

Spend more time in the Pistol forum and ask your question . on AR15 Pistols .

TS2
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 9:08:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TargetShooter2:

I'm trying to read between your lines ,,
if you are asking pistols , they use a brace .. Not a Stock period ..

your comment above leaves me to think you don't know the law ..

just so you understand you can NOT take a AR15 rifle with a stock and
put a brace on it and now call it a Legal Pistol ,, the Laws does not work that way .

if you do not Know and understand the Law ,, then you need to go purchase a New
Pistol from a FFL and have the 4473 ran through as a Pistol ,

or you need to build you a pistol with a stripped lower that was 4473 and marked as
other .

Spend more time in the Pistol forum and ask your question . on AR15 Pistols .

TS2
View Quote
Exactly, I don't know the law.

I don't know the legal requirements to have a firearm chambered in 5.56 be classified as a pistol.

I don't know if MO Dept. of Conservation has a legal description of what they classify as a pistol [e.g., their regulation that an AR w/ a 10 round magazine is ok but one with a larger magazine isn't].

That was the purpose of my original post.

I'll go to the pistol forum to learn about that aspect of what and how to get a pistol chambered in 5.56.

The gist of what I'm learning in this thread is that IF it is a pistol then MO Dept of Conservation doesn't impose any additional restrictions on a legally classified pistol.

Thanks
Link Posted: 11/22/2018 11:31:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
I don't know if MO Dept. of Conservation has a legal description of what they classify as a pistol...
No, they don't. They use the legal description of the types of firearms, not their own.

The gist of what I'm learning in this thread is that IF it is a pistol then MO Dept of Conservation doesn't impose any additional restrictions on a legally classified pistol.
Correct.
View Quote
I built a 7.5" pistol out of the stripped lower that I bought from ARF, but had lots of function problems. I couldn't hunt with it that way, so I put my 20" Bushmaster upper on it. (Pistol is determined by the lower, not the upper). Here it is in a deer blind, in 2016.
Attachment Attached File


Since then I changed the upper to 10.5", so instead of having to put my Bushmaster on there again I'll be hunting with it as is.
Attachment Attached File


If you build a pistol lower, you're best off to leave it that way. If you put a stock on the lower, it's a rifle. If a stock were put on my 10.5" pistol (which would require replacing the buffer tube/receiver extension), it would be an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle), and would require the NFA stuff be done in advance. Without the paperwork and tax stamp, putting a stock on the pistol shown would be a felony.
Link Posted: 11/23/2018 9:24:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

If you build a pistol lower, you're best off to leave it that way. If you put a stock on the lower, it's a rifle. If a stock were put on my 10.5" pistol (which would require replacing the buffer tube/receiver extension), it would be an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle), and would require the NFA stuff be done in advance. Without the paperwork and tax stamp, putting a stock on the pistol shown would be a felony.
View Quote
^ Thanks. This is the kind of regulatory foolishness that I feared existed. I live in a different arena of regulation and the extent and foolishness knows no bounds. I cannot risk running afoul of them, even inadvertently, because that would impact my job.

Thanks everyone I now know what I didn't know I didn't know so I'll be able to get all my ducks in a row and be ready by next alternative season.

All the Best,
Link Posted: 11/23/2018 9:27:01 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

I built a 7.5" pistol out of the stripped lower that I bought from ARF, but had lots of function problems. I couldn't hunt with it that way, so I put my 20" Bushmaster upper on it. (Pistol is determined by the lower, not the upper). Here it is in a deer blind, in 2016.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/51036/2016-12-26_Deer_Hunt_at_Brians__1__jpg-747993.JPG

Since then I changed the upper to 10.5", so instead of having to put my Bushmaster on there again I'll be hunting with it as is.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/51036/2017-11-27_AR_Pistol__1__JPG-747995.JPG

If you build a pistol lower, you're best off to leave it that way. If you put a stock on the lower, it's a rifle. If a stock were put on my 10.5" pistol (which would require replacing the buffer tube/receiver extension), it would be an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle), and would require the NFA stuff be done in advance. Without the paperwork and tax stamp, putting a stock on the pistol shown would be a felony.
View Quote
Since you've hunted with 7.5, 10.5 and 20".... which would you build at this point? Or would you choose something in between 10.5 - 20?

Thanks
Link Posted: 11/23/2018 9:38:52 AM EST
I like the 10.5", and it will work fine for the woods where I'm hunting. If I were to hunt a more open area, I'd probably put the 20" upper back on there.
Link Posted: 11/23/2018 3:42:48 PM EST
Put my 16" Grendel upper on my pistol and now it is a pistol for hunting!
Link Posted: 11/23/2018 5:32:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
Put my 16" Grendel upper on my pistol and now it is a pistol for hunting!
View Quote
I'm trying hard to believe you without a pic tho

just kind of tough
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 8:21:20 PM EST
How have the terminal ballistics been on whitetails with the AR pistols? Always wondered.

Would like to know what bullet type/weight as well.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 10:17:15 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By falfrenzy:
How have the terminal ballistics been on whitetails with the AR pistols? Always wondered.

Would like to know what bullet type/weight as well.
View Quote
Plenty of people use SBRs on deer. Use Win Power Point or Federal Fusion.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 10:42:25 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
Plenty of people use SBRs on deer. Use Win Power Point or Federal Fusion.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
Originally Posted By falfrenzy:
How have the terminal ballistics been on whitetails with the AR pistols? Always wondered.

Would like to know what bullet type/weight as well.
Plenty of people use SBRs on deer. Use Win Power Point or Federal Fusion.
What caliber? Many different flavors with AR pistols these days.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 10:51:10 PM EST
I think it's assumed 5.56/.223, unless otherwise specified.
Link Posted: 11/25/2018 10:53:45 AM EST
If you had/have a Contender pistol that can swap barrels and you put on a 16" barrel, is that Contender now a rifle? Hell no. It's still a pistol. Not because it was bought as a pistol, but because of the shoulder stock.

Build your gun(as intended) to be a pistol, without a shoulder stock and put a barrel on it of 14" or less and you have a legal pistol, as that's what was intended and created. Barrel length has nothing to do with it not being a pistol.

Just DO NOT build it as a rifle and show everyone what a cool rifle you built, then remove the shoulder stock due to alternate hunting laws and now say it's a pistol, as then you create an illegal gun scenario and it would/could land you in jail.

Yes, there's antique pistols out there, like Colt, S&W and German Lugers where the factory also designed them to attach a shoulder stock, but those are grandfathered in under gun laws as legal, due to their age and historical value to collectors.
Link Posted: 11/25/2018 3:25:55 PM EST
Don't know if this is right or not but no one has disagreed with this post yet. Wonder what you all think?

Originally Posted By Bashby:
A stripped lower should be marked "other" on the 4473. If not the FFL is doing it wrong, but it still doesnt matter as far as legality because it was shipped as neither a rifle or pistol. Its not your fault they filled the form out wrong. I think its rare that this happens, most ffls know about this by now.

As long as you build it into a pistol first, you can later make it a rifle, then back into a pistol. If you go rifle first, you cant go to pistol later
.
View Quote
From this thread in AR pistols: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/deer-hunting-pistol/122-733644/?r=-1&page=1&anc=7780583#i7780583
Link Posted: 11/25/2018 3:34:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/25/2018 3:35:26 PM EST by Weekend_Hillbilly]
This is the way I’ve always know it to be. All my lowers have been Other, and I built them as pistols, so I can change them in the future.
Link Posted: 11/25/2018 4:31:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
Don't know if this is right or not but no one has disagreed with this post yet. Wonder what you all think?

From this thread in AR pistols: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/deer-hunting-pistol/122-733644/?r=-1&page=1&anc=7780583#i7780583
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Deuskid:
Don't know if this is right or not but no one has disagreed with this post yet. Wonder what you all think?

Originally Posted By Bashby:
A stripped lower should be marked "other" on the 4473. If not the FFL is doing it wrong, but it still doesnt matter as far as legality because it was shipped as neither a rifle or pistol. Its not your fault they filled the form out wrong. I think its rare that this happens, most ffls know about this by now.

As long as you build it into a pistol first, you can later make it a rifle, then back into a pistol. If you go rifle first, you cant go to pistol later
.
From this thread in AR pistols: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/deer-hunting-pistol/122-733644/?r=-1&page=1&anc=7780583#i7780583
But can it go back and forth from pistol to rifle and back to pistol as Bashby posts?
Link Posted: 11/26/2018 1:48:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
But can it go back and forth from pistol to rifle and back to pistol as Bashby posts?
View Quote
That's what I was talking about earlier, while specifying that you have to be certain not to make an SBR out of it.
Link Posted: 11/26/2018 7:36:44 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By falfrenzy:
How have the terminal ballistics been on whitetails with the AR pistols? Always wondered.
Would like to know what bullet type/weight as well.
View Quote
I've got a 10.5" .300 BO pistol and I hunt whitetails with 110 grain V-Maxes and have had great luck. I think that it has shot 3 deer and all died in the food plot. FYI, none of the shots were past 50 yards.

Bein's that the OP is new to all this, isn't there something to know about vertical forward grips and barrel lengths too? I built my pistol several years ago and I can't remember all the in's and out's.
Link Posted: 11/26/2018 8:42:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/26/2018 8:56:57 AM EST by 67Firebird]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Buckshot4U:
Bein's that the OP is new to all this, isn't there something to know about vertical forward grips and barrel lengths too? I built my pistol several years ago and I can't remember all the in's and out's.
View Quote
There definitely is, but I can't remember either. I never wanted a vertical or angled fore grip, so I paid little attention to that.

OP, if you're interested in adding one of those, be sure to find out the rules first.

Edit - Here's where I got my info, when I made a thread about building mine. Lots of info, and links to relevant info, throughout that thread. Lots of the pics are gone, because of what photobucket did.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/hometown/How-much-does-it-cost-to-complete-a-stripped-lower---Now-a-pistol-build-thread--Done-Video-Pg7/32-481456/?
Link Posted: 11/26/2018 9:00:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/26/2018 9:08:00 AM EST by Shootindave]
A lot of info being thrown around.

1) As stated, if you want an AR pistol build one as such. Never call it a rifle. If you put a pistol brace on it, never refer to that as a stock. Yes, this seems weird. But this is how it is. Pistol. Pistol Brace.

2) Once you have build an AR pistol lower. The upper you put on it does not matter. There are no length restrictions as far as I can tell with MO DOC. Technically, an AR pistol becomes a "firearm" once over 26" in overall length. NOT A RIFLE. Just a "firearm". This is federal law, nothing to do with MO deer hunting as far as I can tell. I am not a deer cop, lawyer or an AR pistol hunter. This magic length of 26" or more brings us below..........

3) Vertical grips. The overall length of the "pistol" needs to be over 26" from front to back. A flash hider that is not pinned on does not add to this length. In my humble opinion, just don't put a vertical grip on one. That makes that simple.

4) Please know these terms WELL before entering the woods with your AR pistol. If you are stopped by the deer police and you start calling it a rifle or the brace a stock....... well your mouth is gunna cost you.

5) Welcome to the world of braced pistols, where nothing makes sense except for things that take pages of explaining.

ETA: Posts are more better with pics. Retro AR Pistol with pistol brace.

" />
Link Posted: 11/26/2018 7:14:57 PM EST
Without trying to add more mud to the water, I just want to add the following for a technical yet important clarification when building a pistol or rifle from a stripped lower.

A stock or a brace does not determine what the lower is built as, at least not on it's own.

The lower MUST have a barreled upper attached for it to "become" anything.

Example: I buy a stripped lower that is transferred as "other" (just as it should be). I take it home and put a standard m4 stock and buffer tube on it. At that point, it is still NOT a rifle. If I then also install a barreled upper receiver with a barrel length of 16" or greater, it has now become a [legal] rifle.

The same is true when building as a pistol. Putting a brace on alone means absolutely nothing legally speaking. It MUST have a barreled upper receiver installed, no brace required, to first become a pistol.

I am not a lawyer... I have however done the dance while waiting for a stamp.
Link Posted: 11/27/2018 3:05:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/27/2018 3:17:41 AM EST by Shootindave]
I am willing to bet if you build an AR lower with a rifle stock, placed it near a 10" upper, the ATF would be more than willing to let you know what you built. I have SBR, pistol and non-sbr rifle lowers. So I don't have to worry about anything. What I don't want is someone to think you can just have any parts laying around that could build something illegal. READ BELOW.

There is no reason to complicate things. Build a pistol or a rifle. When I did my last Form1 for a SBR I did not install the lower parts kit until my stamp was in hand. While this is not necessary, I knew what I was building. That lower was going to be a SBR. So when I had my Form1 I built it.

ATF LINK

In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United
States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA
when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed
so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a
21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where
aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an
unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and
applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in
favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not
considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA.
However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in
close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA
firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a
- 3 -

complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a
long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.

On the topic of not being lawyers. These guys are. Constructive possession.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/07/08/nfa-and-constructive-possession-myth-or-reality/

A new constructive possession case has popped up, but it is somewhat different than the above constructive possession scenario. In this case, a gentleman had an H&K SP89 pistol, along with a front grip (which by itself would require the registering of the SP89 as an AOW) but also a stock, which would require that the pistol be registered as a short-barreled rifle. Unfortunately, the gentleman fell on hard times and sought to sell the SP89 with all of his “accessories,” which included the front grip and shoulder stock. Unbeknownst to him, he sold pistol and accessories to an undercover cop. For more info, see my post here.
Link Posted: 12/2/2018 7:51:14 PM EST
12.5" 6.8 here.

95 gr. TTSX is a hammer.

I use a lower that is marked "Pistol" and a buffer tube marked "Pistol" that can't readily accept a stock. Is it overkill? Maybe. I keep copies of ATF determination letters in the grips of anything that could be questioned too. (Of course if you followed the case out of Ohio that may be a waste of time...)

Good rule of thumb is that MDC agents and most LE probably aren't "gun guys", so prepare accordingly.
Link Posted: 12/2/2018 8:07:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Shootindave:
A lot of info being thrown around.

1) As stated, if you want an AR pistol build one as such. Never call it a rifle. If you put a pistol brace on it, never refer to that as a stock. Yes, this seems weird. But this is how it is. Pistol. Pistol Brace.

2) Once you have build an AR pistol lower. The upper you put on it does not matter. There are no length restrictions as far as I can tell with MO DOC. Technically, an AR pistol becomes a "firearm" once over 26" in overall length. NOT A RIFLE. Just a "firearm". This is federal law, nothing to do with MO deer hunting as far as I can tell. I am not a deer cop, lawyer or an AR pistol hunter. This magic length of 26" or more brings us below..........

3) Vertical grips. The overall length of the "pistol" needs to be over 26" from front to back. A flash hider that is not pinned on does not add to this length. In my humble opinion, just don't put a vertical grip on one. That makes that simple.

4) Please know these terms WELL before entering the woods with your AR pistol. If you are stopped by the deer police and you start calling it a rifle or the brace a stock....... well your mouth is gunna cost you.

5) Welcome to the world of braced pistols, where nothing makes sense except for things that take pages of explaining.

ETA: Posts are more better with pics. Retro AR Pistol with pistol brace.

https://preview.ibb.co/gnv1N0/IMG-0156.jpg" target="_blank">https://preview.ibb.co/gnv1N0/IMG-0156.jpg
View Quote
I "THINK" this is slightly incorrect. It only becomes a "firearm" if you put a VFG on it.

A pistol is designed to be fired with one hand, adding a VFG makes it appear that you intend to shoot it with two hands.

A "handguard" on an AR pistol is essentially just a "barrel shroud" designed to enhance accuracy or prevent the user from coming into contact with the heated barrel or parts.

All of this is meaningless though if you put the shoulder thing that goes up on your AR.
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