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Posted: 12/1/2007 11:31:56 AM EDT
[#1]
There are a couple different AKs chambered in 7.62x39 that either side fold or underfold and have to be registered as a pistol. As I'm sure you know that caliber is similar to a 30-30. Here is an example. If you want some specific model #s let me know and I'll give you some.
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Posted: 12/1/2007 11:50:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Yeah, guess I never really thought about a folding AK. It's really not what I'm looking for, but I suppose it would work if I can't find anything else.
What about this thing:  18.5" barrel 28" overall What is the ruling for smoothbore/rifled shotguns? What is a short barreled shotgun vs. a pistol? I'd like to add a folding stock to the above type of shotgun. Is that doable? |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 12:19:37 PM EDT
[#3]
I doubt there are any Masadas registered in MI.
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Posted: 12/1/2007 1:56:55 PM EDT
[#4]
I have this registered as a pistol.....................
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Posted: 12/1/2007 6:12:56 PM EDT
[#5]
hey lumpy, i was wondering how you got the papers on that squared away?
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Posted: 12/1/2007 6:15:19 PM EDT
[#6]
You could go one of those routes but unless there is a specific need for a long gun they get old to carry very quickly.
I have done many miles with a M4gery tracking people over the last couple years. Granted that is a bit bigger than an underfolder but you get the idea. My personal backpack gun and pistol hunting gun is a Blackhawk 45 LC with a 7.5" barrel. 75 yard shots on a 1/2 size IPSC steel target are easy and I can hit 125 1/5 sometimes better. Joe |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 7:58:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Dont quote me but I belive once you add a stock its no longer a pistol
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Posted: 12/2/2007 4:34:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Its an AOW (Any other Weapon) and are legal in MI.
Your correct, it can never have a stock on it. It has to be run through a Class III dealer. Only a $5 trans tax though. If your just looking for a little piece of mind/self defense in the woods, I'd go the Pistol route for backpacking also, 6inch 44mag or 45LC. Carried in a shoulder holster to get it off your waist where the pack belt will be. Easy to get your hands on quickly if needed. If your set on a long gun, look at some of the smaller lever action "guide guns". Even a Remington Model 7 bolt action or a similar short light weight bolt action. KelTec folders are small and light for a high cap smaller caliber option. An AR15 Pistol is also an option. Browning makes a take down BLR Lightweight in mutiple cals. A light weight version Remington 700 with a Choate folding stock and cut down 16" or longer barrel and keeping the OAL at 26" with the stock folded. You could use a light weight Tactical model, flute the barrel, and have it ready to thread the end when supressors are ok'd. Oh, Great. Now you got me thinking of a new rifle. Thanks! |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:16:11 AM EDT
[#9]
I was a bit worried about how the whole pistol registration process would go, I was expecting a lot of grief. It was no trouble at all. They took it and a few minutes later I was signing the card. In and out with no problems at all. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 7:36:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the advice about carrying a pistol instead of a long gun, but that isn't really what I'm looking for. We will probably be driving in to a campsite on two track tails, setting up camp and staying out there for a week or so. If I can "hike" it in with my truck I'd like to have a more powerful gun than a standard revolver or pistol.
What I'm looking for is something like my Kel Tec Sub2000, but in shotgun form. It has a 16" barrel, but can be operated at 29" overall length. It is green carded and can be carried with my CPL. So....what about a shotgun with a 16" barrel and a folding stock. It can be operated at under 30" but folded out longer than that. The AK posted above fits those exact same requirements and is registered as a pistol... |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 8:52:03 AM EDT
[#11]
you can carry a rifle or shotgun if you have a small game license
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Posted: 12/2/2007 8:54:00 AM EDT
[#12]
The Choate side folding shotgun stocks are good. They lock up real tight. Theres also the AR type stocks for the shotguns which will be alittle longer. I think a top folding Remington type will be the shortest. Sorry I dont have the lengths on them though. My Choate M1 Carbine floding stock is about 3-4 inches long past the end of the receiver when folded. The shotgun ones look about the same.
I believe the barrel has to be 18" no mater what or it will fall under the Short Barreled Shotgun law which are illegal. Ar15 Pistols have short barrels because they can not have a stock. A side folder on the above Mossberg with a 18" barrel would be legal. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 8:59:30 AM EDT
[#13]
Yet multiple people have shotgun barrels shorter than that registered as a pistol. One is posted in this thread, here's another from a member of the high road:  He is a resident of MI and that is a pistol here. That is exactly what I'm looking for, though I would prefer a longer barrel length and a folding stock. However, if I can't, that 870 is precisely what I'm looking for. I'm just trying to find out how to do that, whether I can build it myself or must purchase it like that. I've asked the owner of that shotgun for clarification. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 9:23:29 AM EDT
[#14]
That shotgun is a Federally registered Form 1 C&R short barreled shotgun, short barrel with a stock. Dr. D. and I are still in debate with the ATF as they first said yes, then no, to them. If you want one of those, hang on alittle longer and we will post the ATF's final decision. Or try to Form 1 yourself and see what they say. The other in this thread is a Federally registered AOW and can never have a stock added. I know the laws make no common sense, but they are what they are.
As for Michigan legal, you need a 18" barrel on a shotgun or 16" barrel on a rifle. Then the OAL has to be in the 26"-30" area to be able to reg as a pistol and have a stock. Otherwise, your choice is no stock as a pistol or AOW, or something thats 30" or longer. The Mossberg with an 18" barrel and folding stock or pistol grip are legal. Just depends how much the folding stock adds in length (in closed possision) if it makes the 30" and does not need a pistol reg. I just saw a Mossberg 9200 12ga semi with a folding stock that was pretty cool. There are top folding stocks for the Mossberg but they make the safety hard to get at. Heres the MI law if you want to read it. MI SBS/SBR/Pistol Definitions I dont think Mossberg is making a folder. Buy a Mossberg 500 18" with a regular stock or pistol grip then replace it with the folder. The Remington top folders were made by Remington but are hard to find and pricey. You can buy a 870 18" and do the same. Advanced Tech or Buttler Creek Design Choate Side Folder |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 10:48:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Cybersniper- That is the information I was looking for. Thank you for your post!
I am trying to meet pistol requirements here, so I can have possession of the gun under my CPL. Others have said I can carry a normal shotgun with a small game license, I'm just looking to expand my options. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 1:00:12 PM EDT
[#16]
I wonder if i buy a pistol grip for a shotgun and install it does that mean i need a pistol permit before or do i need to do the police station thing after or what?
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Posted: 12/2/2007 1:18:48 PM EDT
[#17]
i believe you can only loose the stock and put a pistol grip on a shotgun if the OAL is +30" wiht the pistol grip attached then its still a firearm/longgun and you would not be manufactireing a pistol from a rifle or shotgun which is a a fed no no...
but you could put a folding stock on it with a pistol grip since a “Shotgun” means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder unless you wanna turn your 18" smooth barrel shotgun into a AOW like lumpy's and then you need to get approval beforehand on a ATF form and pay the $200 manufactoring tax or find a previous manufactured AOW and only pay the $5 transfer fee if you do look around they go sell pistol grip showguns with pistol grips but there over the 30" or if they are 26"-30" they have a riffled barreled and a pistol grip but my interpitation could be off... but i do know you would need the pistol purchase permit before modifying your shotgun from 30" to a 26"-30"with a pistol grip, then take it in with the folding stock attached because they could be a real pain if you go into to register it and you dont have the purchase permit then you are in possesion of a michigan pistol without a permit |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 1:39:44 PM EDT
[#18]
o.k how bout a folder rifle over 26 hows that go
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:14:50 PM EDT
[#19]
I think a Polish Tantal (5.45x39) will meet those specifications. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:15:15 PM EDT
[#20]
You can have a pistol gripped shotgun as long as the overall length is over 30 inches. Mossberg even sells them like that with their 20" barrel models. It's considered a shotgun just as much with a full stock would be.
Once you drop below that 30" threshold is when it gets tricky. Folding AK's seem to be the easiest way to do this, that just isn't the gun I want. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:21:18 PM EDT
[#21]
In MI if your rifle is shorter than 30", and 26" or longer, and has a 16" barrel it is considered a pistol. This is usually achieved with a folding stock. The measurement is also taken while the rifle is folded, if it can still shoot while folded (think AK, with folder). Rifles that do not fire while folded, will be measured unfolded.
I've been toying with the idea of an AR pistol, with a carbine length "pistol" buffer tube. Add a 14.5" barrel, and a removable muzzle device, and you have a MI legal pistol that you can still shoulder, and is still an effective "rifle". Edited for confusion on my part. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:22:04 PM EDT
[#22]
.
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:25:48 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:29:39 PM EDT
[#24]
still should have a purchase permit before putting the folding stock on the rifle or shotgun if it drops it into the 26"-30"so your not in violation of possesing a pistol without to permit to purchase or own... you could add a barrel extionsion to +30" if you dont want it registered as pistol
its this simple any rifle or shotgun under 26"-30" with the stock folded requires to be registered as a pistol... anything under 26" is illegal to own because its a short barrel rifle or short barrel shotgun because the overall length is under 26",,, and any rifle must have a 16" barrel and shotguns must have a 18" barrell |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 2:46:11 PM EDT
[#25]
The OP mentioned the yet to be released Masada. Just to add more info, here are the length specifications of the 14.5” barrel model.
stock folded: 25" stock un-folded but collapsed: 32.5" stock open and extended: 35.5" Perfect truck gun.  ETA Have been informed that these measurements already include a muzzle device. Cannot verify at this time. If so, may be impractical to meet MI legal requirements. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 4:05:17 PM EDT
[#26]
14.5" Masada is illegal in MI. It has a stock, and it's only 25" folded. You need a 15.5" barrel or longer to be legal in MI.
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Posted: 12/2/2007 4:34:10 PM EDT
[#27]
Expand your universe a little. Silver solder a Phantom flash hider on there, and you are good to go.  ETA This is how I and about a gazillion others can legally use actual 14.5" M4 barrels in our M4geries. ETA Have been informed that the provided measurements already include a muzzle device. Cannot verify at this time. If so, may be impractical to meet MI legal requirements. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 4:50:50 PM EDT
[#28]
You're contradicting yourself. If the Sub2000 is measured unfolded, it would be considered a rifle by your definition of 26" or more. The Sub2000 is 29" unfolded, which is the only way it will operate. It is a pistol in Michigan. I was under the assumption that above 30" was a long gun, while 26-30" was a pistol, providing it has a 16" barrel for centerfire and 18" barrel for shot shells. Anything different is an AOW, SBR or SBR. I'm not expert, but that is what I have gathered. I think I might just make some calls tomorrow and see if anyone can help me. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:26:18 PM EDT
[#29]
Like How Bout a 10/22 with a 16" installed and a folding stock. Lets say It was over 30"
then I added the above mods Now 27" . What the hell is it still a Rifle or a unregistered pistol. If its a pistol then couldnt a ccw now make it a legal truck gun. Can it stay a rifle for ease of transfer state to state ? If no ccw how the hell do you use a purchase permit to buy it back from yourself??? Its seems so confusing 
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:26:46 PM EDT
[#30]
I have a 14.5" AR with a welded Phantom. I know all about that. The Masada in question was measured folded, with the Phantom/Vortex included in that measurement. It is too short for MI. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:31:30 PM EDT
[#31]
You're right I got confused with Fed law vs. MI law. Anything under 30" in MI is a pistol. Anything under 26", that can still fire at that length is illegal in MI. I believe you can get a Sub 2000 with a 1" recoil pad, and that brings it up to 30" rifle length. I will edit my previous post to avoid further confusion. Thanks for pointing that out to me 
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:39:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Actually Blackhawk2000 is kinda right, although he leaves out that 26-30" rifles and shotguns have to be registered as pistols per the MI definition of a pistol. The definition of a rifle and shotgun do say 26". Thats exactly why MI law on this is so confussing.
TFin04, looks like you got it down right. Follow the way your thinking it and youll be fine. Buy that Mossberg 500 18", get the pistol permit, and slap a folding stock or pistol grip on it. I had a second to measure up one of my Mossbergs. From a 18.5" barrel to the end of the receiver is 26". My M1 carbine Choate folder sticks out about 3" from the rear of the reciever when folded. Looks "about" the same in the pics of the Choate Mossberg folder. Either way any folder will put you over 26" but most likely under 30". |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:45:53 PM EDT
[#33]
If that is the case, I guess a 16" barrel would be needed, and you could use any or no muzzle device.  Thanks for the info.
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:48:49 PM EDT
[#34]
A 10/22 with a 16" barrel and 27" OAL would be a rifle that has to be registered as a pistol. Yes if registered as a pistol it can be carried under as a CCW/CPL. MSP has already ok'd/concured with that. State to State would probably depend on the other States definitions, and if theyre as stupid as ours. As far as getting it on a pistol permit if you modify it to the 26-30 length, you are the seller and the buyer on the form. Not a big deal. Most PD's seem on the ball on this one. I think MSP sent out a memo or something to explain the 26"-30" thing to the PD's. My M1 Carbine with Choate folder is on a pistol permit and it was no problem. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:49:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Correct you also need to get a green card for the gun. Now if you buy it new already less than 30" you need a purchase permit. If you do it yourself to a fixed stock rifle, just take it into the Police station, and get it "inspected". I have no idea what to do if you buy it used with a folder already on it. I assume you need a purchase permit.
Also don't forget with a shotgun, the barrel has to be 18". This makes it harder to get them under 30". |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 5:53:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Yeah it sucks, that due to the design you can't just add a pad to the stock. Plus even with a 16" barrel you are still going to need a pistol permit. I know a lot of people are turned off by that. I'm fine with it, because if something happened where I needed a trunk rifle, even if I did get arrested I'm still legally in the right. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 6:01:11 PM EDT
[#37]
OP, Check these out. 12" Remington 870 AOW (can never have a stock). They are a close in gun though. I'd guess the pattern on 00buck would spread quick. Still cool and small though. Not a bad price either for a $5 trans tax.
870 AOW |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 6:29:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Anyone ever shoot an AOW with effective (slugs/buck) ammo?
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Posted: 12/2/2007 7:24:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Thanks for the help so far guys, you have all been a wealth of knowledge.
Has anyone ever done this themselves? (Folding stock on 18" shotgun, then registering as a pistol) Another question, is there anything limiting me from cutting a barrel down to 18, adding a folding stock, then going to register as a pistol? I have an old 28" Mossberg 500 that I wouldn't mind hacking up for this. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 8:04:25 PM EDT
[#40]
I shot a Serbu with Federal Tactical reduced recoil 00buck. Recoil was still stiff. Pattern hit a man size target up to about 15yards then started to throw a few as we moved back. I thought about getting an AOW but would opt to pay a few more bucks for the Remington 14" factory made AOW. They put in a modified choke, not just hack off the end. Should pattern alittle better. I dont think the ones on the EE Board have a choke. That purchase is on hold pending the ATFs final descison on the C&R SBS/SBR applications. |
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Posted: 12/2/2007 8:53:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Lumpy really should start making some of these posts stickys. Seems like we go over this topic once a week.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:25:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Aside from the wealth of knowledge you've found regarding the gun laws in Michigan, there is A LOT of misinformation pertaining to what you intend to do and where you want to do it.
The DNR gave you bad info when they said you could not carry long guns on state land. The correct answer is "It depends." Specifically, it depends on which piece of property, and exactly where within that piece of property you intend to traverse. No, I'm not kidding...the rules ARE that complex and vary greatly from one property to the next. YOUR BEST BET is to call the actual field office responsible for overseeing the property you intend to visit. Ask for, and speak to, the Conservation Officer responsible for that area...he / she will be the one arresting you anyway, and even they have their own interpretation of the laws (i.e. you can / do get conflicting info from different officers...so talk to the one that matters). If the area you intend to visit is open to hunting, and there are no time of year restrictions (not hunting/ shooting from April 15th -Septemper 1st is a common one) you can buy a small game license and carry a rifle under the "guise" of hunting skunks during daylight hours. That's why I'm advocating speaking to the Man. Also, you CANNOT just camp anywhere you damn well please, especailly if you are going in on a two track with a vehicle. There are designated campgrounds. They have fees. You need stickers. They each have their own rules. Again, contact the field office responsible for the property you intend to use, and find out what their rules are on overnight camping. "Enjoying" the outdoors in Michigan requires a PhD to be on the right side of the law, and even then there is A LOT of subjectivity to it...especially on public land. Don't get caught up in the web. Find out for sure. 
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Posted: 12/3/2007 5:15:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Actually, you can camp on state lands provided you obtain a camp permit (free) from a DNR field office. We did this for a large number of years for deer camp. We would haul up campers and park them just off the road up in the woods. It isn't legal to camp on State Game areas between May 15 and September 10, unless you are in a designated campground. It has been a couple years now but I believe you can only camp in one spot for 15 days before having to re-locate your campsite at least 1/2 mile away. Lastly, I dont think you can camp within 1 mile of an designated State Forest campground. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 5:47:42 AM EDT
[#44]
I'd be just shocked if one of the Tromix 18" shotguns with a folder wasn't a pistol in MI....
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Posted: 12/3/2007 7:16:49 AM EDT
[#45]
Thank you for the info. I used to camp on state land quite a bit as a kid, and it was a two track deal and we pretty much just chose our spot. We did that for years and years, and ran into a few CO's over that time and there were no issues. I guess I need to look into that a bit more. Kinda crazy that it is so difficult to just go enjoy the outdoors like a responsible person... |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 2:43:17 PM EDT
[#46]
If I do the folding stock mods myself to a already owned rifle i just need the green card " saftey check / registration "? makes better sense to me Instead of getting a permit for a stock and or 16 inch barrel.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 2:51:43 PM EDT
[#47]
Thanks for the info I am glad i popped in on this thread, even if its an every week thing. At least its a "avoid jail" thread and not 9mm vs. .45.
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