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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/5/2005 2:51:34 PM EDT


Link Posted: 9/5/2005 3:50:53 PM EDT
I beleive so if it is single edged and not concealed.
May be wrong here tho so chk with your local PD.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:53:37 PM EDT
Single edge shorter than 2.75" should be okay to conceal.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:24:46 PM EDT
Depends if the cop wants to take it home with him or not.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:31:01 AM EDT
Holy broad defenition, Batman!


939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.



Looks like I was wrong on the blade length. The only statute I could find that deals directly with knives is:


941.24(1)
(1) Whoever manufactures, sells or offers to sell, transports, purchases, possesses or goes armed with any knife having a blade which opens by pressing a button, spring or other device in the handle or by gravity or by a thrust or movement is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.




Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:11:33 AM EDT

941.24(1)
(1) Whoever manufactures, sells or offers to sell, transports, purchases, possesses or goes armed with any knife having a blade which opens by pressing a button, spring or other device in the handle or by gravity or by a thrust or movement is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.




looks like I'm safe from that one as that's the "switchblade" law.



939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.



that one however .... what's the context? that it's illegal to carry concealed?

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:52:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 5:53:50 AM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.



that one however .... what's the context? that it's illegal to carry concealed?




941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.


The CCW statute (Ch 941) mentions "dangerous weapon". "Dangerous weapon" is defined in Chapter 939. Unfortunately, that definition is incredibly broad, and one would assume could be applied to damn near any object that you are capable of defending yourself with, including but not limited to the knife you were wondering about.

I thought we were safe with a single-edged pocket knife with a blade length 2.75" or shorter. Looks like I was mistaken, and you could concieveably get nicked using the CCW statute for having a Swiss army knife in your pocket.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:11:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.



that one however .... what's the context? that it's illegal to carry concealed?




941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.


The CCW statute (Ch 941) mentions "dangerous weapon". "Dangerous weapon" is defined in Chapter 939. Unfortunately, that definition is incredibly broad, and one would assume could be applied to damn near any object that you are capable of defending yourself with, including but not limited to the knife you were wondering about.

I thought we were safe with a single-edged pocket knife with a blade length 2.75" or shorter. Looks like I was mistaken, and you could concieveably get nicked using the CCW statute for having a Swiss army knife in your pocket.



Yeah, the "switchblade" law is messed up too ... they could technically get you for any knife with a thumb stud on it that you can flip open, those kershaw torsion assisted knives, etc.

I'm guessing cops wouldn't look too kindly on the "safe keeper" of mine since it's clearly designed as a weapon.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:20:01 AM EDT
Somewhere out there, there's some kind of statute which limits concealed blade length to 3", or it may be an ordinace, but in my experience with the police, officer discretion is a big thing.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:10:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
Somewhere out there, there's some kind of statute which limits concealed blade length to 3", or it may be an ordinace...



I looked and couldn't find it, but that mirrors what I have always believed about carrying knives in WI. I even "shaved" by 'lil Spyderco Delica to 2.75" because I thought that was the maximum legal length. In hindsight, it very well may have been the pre-9/11 Federal/FAA regulation, though.


...but in my experience with the police, officer discretion is a big thing.


Which, unless I get busted by GlenR , scares the livin' crap outta me.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:13:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:19:07 AM EDT by M-and-A-Parts]
Length is really almost never an issue, at least not in knives!

Most court decisions have hinged soley upon "intent"... read the stat like a lawyer and you'll se that is how it was written!

939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.


No- such assist knives are simply not switchblades, not by any deffinition. Onion or Kershaw started that whole load of BS a number of years ago when they wanted to hype that openeing system- saying that the Feds were trying to re-write the switchblade law to encompass their patent.

Until you have seen and understood the Emerson Wave knife and why it is vastly superior to switchblades in rapid deployment as well as safe carry- you simply are uninformed. You gotta see it to understand it. The last knife you'll ever need to want.

It is, as stated previously, more an issue of your attitude as well as the nice policeman's mindset.

If he had cause to search you to the extent where any such concealed knife became exposed, it probably means you're (at the very least) going to be shopping for a new knife soon.

Carrying it in the open means a whole different set of possibilities. Are you in Forest County in October? No big deal. Racine in July? Plan on a round of "Meet the Policeman".

Common sense.

Enjoy your knife. Just remember that it is little more than a letter opener until you have been educated by a master upon its appropriate use. When we train folks here in Illinois, we give them the laws as best we understand them. So- if they know how to use it, they really won't be asking if they are allowed to carry it.

Better to be tried by 12...

Veronica at M&A Parts

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:30:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
Somewhere out there, there's some kind of statute which limits concealed blade length to 3", or it may be an ordinace...



I looked and couldn't find it, but that mirrors what I have always believed about carrying knives in WI. I even "shaved" by 'lil Spyderco Delica to 2.75" because I thought that was the maximum legal length. In hindsight, it very well may have been the pre-9/11 Federal/FAA regulation, though.


...but in my experience with the police, officer discretion is a big thing.


Which, unless I get busted by GlenR , scares the livin' crap outta me.



I'm in late here, and it's been mostly covered. There is no state statute on blade length. CCW of a knife is technically a class A misdemeanor. Check the tacked legal FAQ for the specifics, also summarized above. Local cities can have blade length limits, but those are forfeiture offenses only, i.e. civil matters, not a criminal offense. You'd lose the knife & be fined, but no "criminal" conviction.

Regarding CCW charges, all knives are technically dangerous weapons. In my opinion discretion is a big factor here, because how many people carry knives? Most? Now if you pull the thing out and start yelling how you're going to cut someone, well, you're in trouble. On the other hand, if you carry a Spyderco Delica because it's a tool--especially with the clip outside your pocket --well, then it's neither concealed nor being used as a weapon (although it still meets the technical definition of a dangerous weapon).


personal opinion follows
Legality aside, I'd recommend against the thing pictured. In the letter of the law there's no difference, but in the face of the stupid CCW laws we have now you're partly dependent on the officer's discretion. That thing looks "evil" compared to the nice "normal" knives out there. Are the benefits it has--if any--worth the potential headache?

As FMD said, officer discretion is a scary thing. The guys I work with are reasonable people, and wouldn't bat an eye about a "normal" knife carried in a pocket. I'm not a big knife guy, and when I see that I think, "Well, that's a knife for cutting people" and would probably have a talk about the desirability of carrying that particular model, and that would be it. Other officers might get more nervous, even though they're pretty low-key. I cannot predict what would happen in Milwaukee or Madison if that thing was found, not having worked there--but my money wouldn't be on a casual response.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:35:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:35:41 AM EDT by glenn_r]
For the knife guys reading this thread, please email or IM me with any local ordinances you know about specifying blade length. I'm trying to add local ordinances to the legal FAQ but I've only found one so far.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:51:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
personal opinion follows...
As FMD said, officer discretion is a scary thing...



And that my friend, is why you are officially my favorite WI LEO!

[/sucking up to the fuzz]

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:53:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M-and-A-Parts:
Length is really almost never an issue, at least not in knives!

Most court decisions have hinged soley upon "intent"... read the stat like a lawyer and you'll se that is how it was written!

939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.


No- such assist knives are simply not switchblades, not by any deffinition. Onion or Kershaw started that whole load of BS a number of years ago when they wanted to hype that openeing system- saying that the Feds were trying to re-write the switchblade law to encompass their patent.



Well, my comment about those knives was in ref to the wisconsin law here:


941.24(1)
(1) Whoever manufactures, sells or offers to sell, transports, purchases, possesses or goes armed with any knife having a blade which opens by pressing a button, spring or other device in the handle or by gravity or by a thrust or movement is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.



It seems pretty clear that they violate that. "or by a thrust or movement"? that's about as vague as it can get ... doesn't every folding knife open "by a movement"?

As for the knife pictured in my first post, my guess as to the way things were is pretty much 100% in line with what glen posted after the words "personal opinion follows".

I bought the thing in high school just because it looked neat. I've always had it around but figured it would be more trouble than it's worth because of the appearance if I were forced to use it.

Just posted this because I was curious about whether it was really legal or not to carry the thing aroudn concealed..


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:56:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
And that my friend, is why you are officially my favorite WI LEO!

[/sucking up to the fuzz]






Is that like saying, "Of all diseases, chicken pox is the one I prefer?"



Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:04:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
It seems pretty clear that they violate that. "or by a thrust or movement"? that's about as vague as it can get ... doesn't every folding knife open "by a movement"?



The local interpretation is that "thrust or movement" describes butterfly knives. I've never heard of a case where someone with a plain folding knife was arrested--much less prosecuted--under the switchblade law. Thank God we're not complete idiots
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:07:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 2:08:55 PM EDT by M-and-A-Parts]
Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

No- such assist knives are simply not switchblades, not by any deffinition. Onion or Kershaw started that whole load of BS a number of years ago when they wanted to hype that openeing system- saying that the Feds were trying to re-write the switchblade law to encompass their patent.

Well, my comment about those knives was in ref to the wisconsin law here:

941.24(1)
(1) Whoever manufactures, sells or offers to sell, transports, purchases, possesses or goes armed with any knife having a blade which opens by pressing a button, spring or other device in the handle or by gravity or by a thrust or movement is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

It seems pretty clear that they violate that. "or by a thrust or movement"? that's about as vague as it can get ... doesn't every folding knife open "by a movement"?[/qoute]



It's basically a cookie cutter copy of all similar laws. Here's how it has been interpreted:

"by pressing a button"

Meaning litteraly the single manipulation of one button, by depressing same (your basic switch-blade)

"spring or other device in the handle" (That will cause the knife blade to open) Remember the Onion patent requires you to "open" the knife blade, first!"

refering to a spring that will cause, "after the pressing a button" the blade to "open"

"or by gravity or by a thrust or movement"


This one refers to gravity paratrooper knives and straight thrust stillettos (CIA stuff). These knives will deploy, either by gravity or the momentum activating a spring mechanism (can you say: "unsafe to carry"?)

There is also the so called Spetznaz Ballistic knife www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2300/2375.htm which clearly falls within both deffinitions.

Court Case about the above weapon (NOT about this discussion): www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/auto_knives/state_v_darynani.txt (NOT relevant to this disussion other than to show interpretation of laws)

Once again, I say, it hinges (in court) upon intent.

On the street, I have to ask again: What made the nice policeman ask you to look under your shirt in the first place.

Whatever the reason, you were headed for trouble in the first place.

The knife was just an add-on.


Veronica at M&A Parts
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:31:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By FMD:
And that my friend, is why you are officially my favorite WI LEO!

[/sucking up to the fuzz]






Is that like saying, "Of all diseases, chicken pox is the one I prefer?"



If the jack-boot fits...






Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:16:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M-and-A-Parts:


It's basically a cookie cutter copy of all similar laws. Here's how it has been interpreted:

"by pressing a button"

Meaning litteraly the single manipulation of one button, by depressing same (your basic switch-blade)

"spring or other device in the handle" (That will cause the knife blade to open) Remember the Onion patent requires you to "open" the knife blade, first!"

refering to a spring that will cause, "after the pressing a button" the blade to "open"

"or by gravity or by a thrust or movement"


This one refers to gravity paratrooper knives and straight thrust stillettos (CIA stuff). These knives will deploy, either by gravity or the momentum activating a spring mechanism (can you say: "unsafe to carry"?)

There is also the so called Spetznaz Ballistic knife www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2300/2375.htm which clearly falls within both deffinitions.

Court Case about the above weapon (NOT about this discussion): www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/auto_knives/state_v_darynani.txt (NOT relevant to this disussion other than to show interpretation of laws)

Once again, I say, it hinges (in court) upon intent.





yeah, I know where the wording in the law originated ... just saying a lawyer arguing against you would have a very easy time saying your knife violated that law with just about any kind of easy open knife ... be it one of the onion designs, or just a loose kinfe with a thumb stud that you can flick open.


and this part:



On the street, I have to ask again: What made the nice policeman ask you to look under your shirt in the first place.

Whatever the reason, you were headed for trouble in the first place.

The knife was just an add-on.


Veronica at M&A Parts



Here's the scenario:

Walking down the sidewalk at night, some vagrant stumbles up and asks "got any change man?" ...
I reply with my usual "yeah, plenty, just not for you."
Vagrant is angered by this and attacks, so I pull out quick opening pocket knife, flick it open, and stick him with it. He dies. I end up in court. Liberal lawyer "He used an ILLEGAL knife to murder this young man."

It doesn't matter what they had in mind when the law was written, if you strictly read the word of the law, this knife opens "by a movement"

www.red-dawn.net/video.avi

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:03:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
It seems pretty clear that they violate that. "or by a thrust or movement"? that's about as vague as it can get ... doesn't every folding knife open "by a movement"?



The local interpretation is that "thrust or movement" describes butterfly knives. I've never heard of a case where someone with a plain folding knife was arrested--much less prosecuted--under the switchblade law. Thank God we're not complete idiots



I've seen knives that were basically unsprung stilettos.
The blade opened like an expanding baton, and locked into place.
I always figured the law was refering to those.

Modern folders are just as fast as any switchblade and ten times better built.
Were there lots of stabbings by switchblade, or did they just ban something they were afraid of?
If they were legal to purchase, own and carry, the free market would pass them over as novelty junk.
Swithblade laws are right up there with not being able to shoot buffalo from a moving train.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:11:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
Were there lots of stabbings by switchblade, or did they just ban something they were afraid of?
If they were legal to purchase, own and carry, the free market would pass them over as novelty junk.
Swithblade laws are right up there with not being able to shoot buffalo from a moving train.




Ha, they probably banned them because the bad guys in movies always used them.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:48:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
I've seen knives that were basically unsprung stilettos.
The blade opened like an expanding baton, and locked into place.
I always figured the law was refering to those.



I forgot about those. Yeah, those would be illegal too. I need to go read more mall ninja catalogs.


Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
Ha, they probably banned them because the bad guys in movies always used them.



Actually, I think you're right. If I recall correctly, they passed the law in the 1950's when all the early "gang" movies came out.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:46:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 5:47:54 AM EDT by M-and-A-Parts]

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

yeah, I know where the wording in the law originated ... just saying a lawyer arguing against you would have a very easy time saying your knife violated that law with just about any kind of easy open knife ... be it one of the onion designs, or just a loose kinfe with a thumb stud that you can flick open.

Here's the scenario:

Walking down the sidewalk at night, some vagrant stumbles up and asks "got any change man?" ...
I reply with my usual "yeah, plenty, just not for you."
Vagrant is angered by this and attacks, so I pull out quick opening pocket knife, flick it open, and stick him with it. He dies. I end up in court. Liberal lawyer "He used an ILLEGAL knife to murder this young man."





Ahh, so that's what made the nice policeman chat with you!

See, there's always something!

Very few lawyers working in criminal courts aren't liberal. But they are state employees. You have the burden of buying your own lawyer. Get someone with some brains (and local clout), a conservative.

You reference two seperate issues above. As to the "illegal knife" reference, your good defense lawyer would have already had that argument in chambers and kept that phrase out of court.

As far as the true case (in the above scenario), if the "vagrant attacks", your attorney now has the burden of proving that your measure of force was that of a reasonable man in this situation. That is the real court case.

I think you'll find the mis-deffinition of knives and criminal elements describing such technicalities more likely applied to the folks that the cops would have an interest in pointing it towards and using it against.

It really doesn't matter. One of our trainers here can do more damage with the sharpened edge of a credit card... long before anyone could respond with such an ungainly instrument.

Those interested, look at the Emerson Wave any of these videos: www.emersonknives.com/EK_Video_Vault.html

Lightning fast deployment, as fast as pulling it out of your pocket.

The rest is just shiny, sharp metal.

Veronica at M&A Parts
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