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Posted: 9/21/2004 1:38:08 PM EST
(Calling all Lawyers , or wannabees )

For the past 10 years , we have relied upon Federal ( ATF ) "opinions" to determine
what is an Assault Weapon here in NY.

Indeed , the NY BAN as, it DEFINES Assault weapons , is almost word for word a copy
of the FEDERAL Law.

ATF will no longer be "approving" muzzle attachments , or telling us what is the only legal
method of attaching one.

Large capacity Ammunition Feeding devices which are NEW but UNMARKED are virtually
indistinguishable from "PreBan" ones.

The entire concept of "PreBan" weapons is now EXTREMELY muddled , since there is a SEVERAL
YEAR GAP between the Preban date of 1994 - and the ACTUAL date of ENACTMENT of the
NY Law. ( possible Ex Post Facto Defense )

So , Who's in charge - and what LEGAL PRECEDENT exists to Back up this ABRIDGEMENT of our
Second Amendment Rights ?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 2:08:49 PM EST
wooooo, excellent point AKs......what a tangled web idiot politicians weave
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 2:17:56 PM EST
Albany just makes this shit up as they go... Ask any LEO and most don't know the difference when it comes to semi auto ban.

The question is, who wants to take a friggin chance with this shit?

Lets face it, this state with the existing influence from NYC, we are all "phucked"

It's either time to flee or feed the hogs...

Dan
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 2:40:19 PM EST
It was Senator Marcellino from here in my district who wrote (or should I say copied from the Federal law) the NYS ban. I had talked to him personally at a local library district meeting in March of 2000 about the ban. That was the week that Pataki came out with his package anti-gun bills. The Senator is a firearm owner himself and was working to derail the really draconian bill that had already passed the Assembly. That one was worse than California IMHO. I think basically their hands were tied. They had to pass something and by using the Federal law, they were able to derail the more restrictive law. Sadly he did not incorporate the sunset clause. I figure if I really want to play with current "post-bans", I can always go up to VT or over to PA to play and then disassemble them and bring them home. Luckily New York does not have a clause like CT that bans possession of parts.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 3:11:22 PM EST
I think the chief council for the State Troopers writes an opinion that the Troopers use for enforcement. The Troopers have a couple of guys that go around to dealers and check the records. They need to be able to explain the law to the gun dealers. The courts will always have the final say though.
On that note, I heard from someone at the gun show that the troopers talked to the dealer with the "folding stock post ban armalite" at the Syracuse show on Sunday. Any truth to it SP10?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 3:22:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aubertine:
On that note, I heard from someone at the gun show that the troopers talked to the dealer with the "folding stock post ban armalite" at the Syracuse show on Sunday. Any truth to it SP10?



If they did, I certainly missed it. Unless troopers were in plain clothes, I didn't see any walking the show-and it was less crowded than Saturday. I HAVE seen 2 plain clothes ATF goons walk right by said dealer-with violations in plain sight, last year. They were observed/IDed showing their credentials to security upon entering the door at the side entrance.....

Since when has it been NYS troopers responsibility to look over FFL records for compliance? WTF is this all about????? I will be chatting with my FFL buddy over this one for sure.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 3:28:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
The entire concept of "PreBan" weapons is now EXTREMELY muddled , since there is a SEVERAL
YEAR GAP between the Preban date of 1994 - and the ACTUAL date of ENACTMENT of the
NY Law. ( possible Ex Post Facto Defense )



There is no ex post facto defense unless you could have been convicted of a crime based on conduct occurring prior to the passage of the law.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 5:26:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 5:30:59 PM EST by rkbar15]
The New York State Police are responsible for issuing and enforcing regulations related to handguns and handgun/gunsmith dealer licensing. Their legal division does issue legal opinion bulletins related to enforcing Penal Law violations to the NYSP and local Police Departments. The NYSP Crime Lab will also perform forensic examinations of any firearm used in a crime. The BATFE will continue to offer its services for identification and tracing of firearms used in crimes when they are requested to by a LE agency.

The New York State Attorney Generals office also issues legal opinions as it relates to violations of the Penal Law.

The Federal AWB was a poorly written law which NYS in their infinite wisdom has decided to perpetuate. It's anyones guess as to how the law will be interpreted in NY.

I would be extremely careful about importing stripped "preban" receivers into NYS and building them up as NY defined assault weapons. Contrary to the hysterical anti-gun orgs. it is extremely rare for a an AW to be used in a crime in NYS. Unless a NY LEO is a firearms enthusiast the chances are he/she will not have much of an idea as to what an illegally configured SAW is vs. a postban rifle since they may look almost identical.

As always you should have the name and 24/7 emergency contact number for an experienced NY criminal attorney with you at all times. When you are handcuffed to the wall in a detention cell it is not the time to try and find an attorney. If you are arrested do not provide any information to a LEO other then your name, address and DOB and that you wish to speak to your attorney before answering any other questions.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:08:45 PM EST
As rkbar [infinite wisdom] said three points:
1) get attorney NOW. Anything else is like waiting till you see Ivan's clouds and then going and trying to buy lumber.
2) burden of proof is on prosecution to PROVE that lower/rifle was not in assault configuration prior to 94.
3) As such you should (I do) get letters from sellers of lowers/rifles stating that rifles were in assault configuration prior to 94. THIS IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN GETTING THE LOWER WITH A COLLAPSING STOCK ATTACHED. that stock does nothing for you. The letter is better (hehehe - ryhmes).

I m'self have bought preban M1, Mini14, AK and AR since the 13th. Now, I'm buying up mags.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:18:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By SP10:
I HAVE seen 2 plain clothes ATF goons walk right by said dealer-with violations in plain sight, last year. They were observed/IDed showing their credentials to security upon entering the door at the side entrance.....

Since when has it been NYS troopers responsibility to look over FFL records for compliance? WTF is this all about????? I will be chatting with my FFL buddy over this one for sure.


You sure that they were ATF? Most LEO skip the lines at Syracuse and go in the side door.
The NYSP question has been answered.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:52:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 3:33:05 AM EST by pickupdan]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By SP10:
I HAVE seen 2 plain clothes ATF goons walk right by said dealer-with violations in plain sight, last year. They were observed/IDed showing their credentials to security upon entering the door at the side entrance.....

Since when has it been NYS troopers responsibility to look over FFL records for compliance? WTF is this all about????? I will be chatting with my FFL buddy over this one for sure.


You sure that they were ATF? Most LEO skip the lines at Syracuse and go in the side door.
The NYSP question has been answered.



They came in the side door.....

It was just by chance that I was following them as they where coming in the side door a year ago. They presented their ID to gain access.

This is the point. There are obvious non compliance by a couple of vendors and the ATF stopped, observed and nothing was done about it. We all try our best to comply with these laws and it makes me wonder if they actually give a crap about such laws. Or do they even know what the laws are????

Also, we had a Syracuse off duty cop stop by and ask about some of the AR15 uppers with flashiders we had for sale. He basically wanted to know how he could put them together and the sort. Upon sharing with him what was needed, either he find a pre-94 manufactured rifle/lower he quite plainly stated, we would never enforce such a bullcrap law. Also offered was he get a signoff on LEO letter head and he quite frankly said "the chief would never go for that." I don't know if he was working undercover or just a local cop sharing his thoughts. You just don't know and one only be careful and follow the bullshit that Albany dictates to us....
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:56:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By pickupdan:



There are obvious non compliance by a couple of vendors and the ATF stopped, observed and nothing was done about it.
it makes me wonder if they actually give a crap about such laws.



Maybe that is the point! They just do not care to hassel people for bullshit laws that are hard to interpret.

Bill H.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:13:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 5:15:16 AM EST by Aardvark]

Originally Posted By SP10:
Upon sharing with him what was needed, either he find a pre-94 manufactured rifle/lower he quite plainly stated, we would never enforce such a bullcrap law.

That might be the case in the more conservative areas of upstate New York (sans Rochester), but here on Long Island I am sure you would become a guest of the State very quickly. I am very fond of the central New York area, especially Skaneateles but I do not want to become a resident of Auburn as a guest of the State
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:18:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By pickupdan:
Also, we had a Syracuse off duty cop stop by and ask about some of the AR15 uppers with flashiders we had for sale. He basically wanted to know how he could put them together and the sort. Upon sharing with him what was needed, either he find a pre-94 manufactured rifle/lower he quite plainly stated, we would never enforce such a bullcrap law.



I have heard from officers up in that area in the past that they tend to shunt what they view as low value crimes like that off to the side because they simply don't have time or personnel to deal with it. At the same time, there are some real MMM types operating in Onondaga County that want to make gun crime a hot button issue. With their recent emphasis on gang crime ( they didn't even acknowledge they had gangs til last year when the body count was going through the roof ), I wouldn't be surprised to see the state AWB be used up there as a tool to get at some of the shooters.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:20:25 AM EST
"shooters" meaning the gang-bangers?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:34:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:11:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
I know for a fact there were plain clothes BCI Troopers at the Syracuse show... there always are when a show is held on state property.



Yes, they stopped using ATF agents due to the excessive amounts of dead kittens stomped in their wake
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:22:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By SP10:
"shooters" meaning the gang-bangers?


Yes.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 8:19:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 8:56:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
LOL, having just finished my latest background check... I can attest, none of my sister's three cats are dead! And nobody shot my dog!



I'm taking a wild guess here that your dog has never pissed on your tires?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 12:03:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 12:05:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:16:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By pickupdan:
Albany just makes this shit up as they go... Ask any LEO and most don't know the difference when it comes to semi auto ban.

The question is, who wants to take a friggin chance with this shit?

Lets face it, this state with the existing influence from NYC, we are all "phucked"

It's either time to flee or feed the hogs...

Dan



This is what some local gunshop's have been telling me. I keep hearing it will be hard for NY State to enforce the AWB now that the federal ban expired. A friend of mine asked a NYS trooper who he is friends with about putting on a collapsible stock on an AR, the trooper said it was legal, only folding stocks are illegal. Go figure. But as Pickupdan said, who the hell wants to take a chance. I had RRA collaspible stock ready for fitting on my AR but sold it last week for a RRA entry stock.
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