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Posted: 3/11/2015 12:31:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2015 12:41:26 AM EDT by Divedog]
Why am I having a hard time finding a FFL that will allow me to attach a written statement to the 4473 when I purchase a new lower for the purpose of SBRing on a form 1 into a trust? They tell me it doesn't work that way and then I tell them that it is clearly stated on the 4473.See Below.

When the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign Section A, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity and (B) the name and address of that business entity. If the buyer’s name in question 1. is illegible, the seller must print the buyer’s name above the name written by the buyer.

Does anyone here know a FFL in western WA that is familiar with this process?

From the directions for a form 1
For a Gun Trust or Corporation select the middle box which says Corporation or Other Business entity.
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 9:45:53 AM EDT
Because you dont need to do any of that to purchase a lower. You buy it, get a form 1 back and then add it to your trust. Why are you trying to purchase a lower with the trust itself?
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 12:57:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Divedog:
Why am I having a hard time finding a FFL that will allow me to attach a written statement to the 4473 when I purchase a new lower for the purpose of SBRing on a form 1 into a trust? They tell me it doesn't work that way and then I tell them that it is clearly stated on the 4473.See Below.

When the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign Section A, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity and (B) the name and address of that business entity. If the buyer’s name in question 1. is illegible, the seller must print the buyer’s name above the name written by the buyer.

Does anyone here know a FFL in western WA that is familiar with this process?

From the directions for a form 1
For a Gun Trust or Corporation select the middle box which says Corporation or Other Business entity.
View Quote

authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information

A person gets the 4473 filled out. The 4473 doesn't necessarily denote who/what "owns" the rifle. It is who is picking up the rifle. The same kinda thing applies to gift purchases afaik. Even if its for someone else, you still put in your own information.
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 7:01:22 PM EDT
All of my form 4 items required that I complete the 4473 even though my trust purchased them.
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 8:09:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ScorpioMk:
Because you dont need to do any of that to purchase a lower. You buy it, get a form 1 back and then add it to your trust. Why are you trying to purchase a lower with the trust itself?
View Quote


I get that you use your own info when filling out the 4473. But the directions on the 4473 clearly state that if the purchase is for a trust that you " MUST complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign Section A, and attach a written statement"

I am thinking.]Since it says Must that any FFL doing a transfer for of a firearm that he knows is going to be part of a trust is required to attach said statement.

I594, oh yes that little gem. also defines a transfer and has wording that defines a transfer between a person and a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity,

The way I read 594 if you follow the directions clearly posted on the 4473 and attach said statement the transfer has happened between the FFL and the trust. If you pick it up with no attached statement then you as a person completed the transfer. When you go home and write it in to the schedule A another transfer has taken place between you and the trust which requires another NICS check that did not happen and could be considered a crime. Then when you file your form 1 and send in your schedule A they now have a record of said crime?

I think I will shake the tree a bit on this one and find a FFL that can follow directions. The FFL has no liability transferring a firearm to a person it is the owner of the firearm that went home and did another transfer with it by adding it to his schedule A and not informing the FFL of his or her intent.

Link Posted: 3/11/2015 8:18:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dawgfish:
All of my form 4 items required that I complete the 4473 even though my trust purchased them.
View Quote


Not sure what your form 4 items are but when it comes to i594 I believe we are only taking about firearms.

Gun Law Group


Why do you care?

First, our current understanding of I-594 is that a transfer from you (a person) to your trust (a person) on or after December 5 will require an FFL background check on each transferred firearm. This could prove to be very expensive if you have a large collection.
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 8:25:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
[b

A person gets the 4473 filled out. The 4473 doesn't necessarily denote who/what "owns" the rifle. It is who is picking up the rifle. The same kinda thing applies to gift purchases afaik. Even if its for someone else, you still put in your own information.
View Quote


What is question 11a on the 4473 about then? (are you the actual transferee/ buyer)
The answer is the trust is buying the firearm and the directions clearly spell out how to fill out the form if that is the case.
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 8:42:31 PM EDT
Factory SBR = form 4 firearm.

When I SBR my .300 BO I'm listing it as an asset of my trust on a form 1. The letter is overkill, in my opinion, and the process suggested is not what many FFL's would call an accepted standard for that transaction.

If someone wants to try and prosecute me for transferring an item I own personally into my own trust, well then, I probably fucked up big time and a charge related to I-594 is the least of my worries, especially since the first conviction is a misdemeanor.

Best of luck finding someone allowing you to attach your letter. Let us know how it works out, or if it becomes a standard practice.


Link Posted: 3/11/2015 9:36:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2015 9:37:25 PM EDT by Divedog]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dawgfish:
Factory SBR = form 4 firearm.

When I SBR my .300 BO I'm listing it as an asset of my trust on a form 1. The letter is overkill, in my opinion, and the process suggested is not what many FFL's would call an accepted standard for that transaction.

If someone wants to try and prosecute me for transferring an item I own personally into my own trust, well then, I probably fucked up big time and a charge related to I-594 is the least of my worries, especially since the first conviction is a misdemeanor.

Best of luck finding someone allowing you to attach your letter. Let us know how it works out, or if it becomes a standard practice.


View Quote

I already have one well known FFL that says they will do it. They are running it by there trust attorney and another FFL is asking the ATF. I will let ya know how it works out. Seems easy enough to attach a statement considering all the other hoops ya jump through for NFA items. Why wouldn't ya follow the directions? I don't however think lowers are covered under 594 as they don't meet the definition of a firearm.
Link Posted: 3/11/2015 11:11:10 PM EDT


Every Form 4 that goes out, I have the transferee sign a statement saying they are picking up on behalf of the trust or corp. If someone wants the same statement for their Title I guns, no problem. I staple it to the 4473 and file it. You want a copy of the statement for your records, done.

Link Posted: 3/11/2015 11:13:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Divedog:


I get that you use your own info when filling out the 4473. But the directions on the 4473 clearly state that if the purchase is for a trust that you " MUST complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign Section A, and attach a written statement"

I am thinking.]Since it says Must that any FFL doing a transfer for of a firearm that he knows is going to be part of a trust is required to attach said statement.

I594, oh yes that little gem. also defines a transfer and has wording that defines a transfer between a person and a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity,

The way I read 594 if you follow the directions clearly posted on the 4473 and attach said statement the transfer has happened between the FFL and the trust. If you pick it up with no attached statement then you as a person completed the transfer. When you go home and write it in to the schedule A another transfer has taken place between you and the trust which requires another NICS check that did not happen and could be considered a crime. Then when you file your form 1 and send in your schedule A they now have a record of said crime?

I think I will shake the tree a bit on this one and find a FFL that can follow directions. The FFL has no liability transferring a firearm to a person it is the owner of the firearm that went home and did another transfer with it by adding it to his schedule A and not informing the FFL of his or her intent.

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Divedog:
Originally Posted By ScorpioMk:
Because you dont need to do any of that to purchase a lower. You buy it, get a form 1 back and then add it to your trust. Why are you trying to purchase a lower with the trust itself?


I get that you use your own info when filling out the 4473. But the directions on the 4473 clearly state that if the purchase is for a trust that you " MUST complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign Section A, and attach a written statement"

I am thinking.]Since it says Must that any FFL doing a transfer for of a firearm that he knows is going to be part of a trust is required to attach said statement.

I594, oh yes that little gem. also defines a transfer and has wording that defines a transfer between a person and a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity,

The way I read 594 if you follow the directions clearly posted on the 4473 and attach said statement the transfer has happened between the FFL and the trust. If you pick it up with no attached statement then you as a person completed the transfer. When you go home and write it in to the schedule A another transfer has taken place between you and the trust which requires another NICS check that did not happen and could be considered a crime. Then when you file your form 1 and send in your schedule A they now have a record of said crime?

I think I will shake the tree a bit on this one and find a FFL that can follow directions. The FFL has no liability transferring a firearm to a person it is the owner of the firearm that went home and did another transfer with it by adding it to his schedule A and not informing the FFL of his or her intent.



This says that trusts arent "persons", and that the transfer must be made to an individual. Business entities are considered persons, so they do attach said form and can receive a firearm.

https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/13-0574-response-letter.pdf

Because unincorporated trusts are not "persons" under the GCA, a Federal firearms licensee
(FFL) cannot transfer firearms to them without complying with the GCA. Thus, when an FFL
transfers an NFA firearm to a trustee or other person acting on behalf of a trust, the transfer is
made to this person as an individual (i.e., not as a trust). As the trustee or other person acting on
behalf of the trust is not the approved transferee under the NFA, 18 U.S.C. 5812, the trustee or
other person acting on behalf of a trust must undergo a NICS check. The individual must also be
a resident of the same State as the FFL when receiving the firearm.

Link Posted: 3/11/2015 11:52:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2015 12:03:33 AM EDT by Divedog]
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Originally Posted By Scollins:


Every Form 4 that goes out, I have the transferee sign a statement saying they are picking up on behalf of the trust or corp. If someone wants the same statement for their Title I guns, no problem. I staple it to the 4473 and file it. You want a copy of the statement for your records, done.

View Quote

Yes, if it doesn't work out with my usual FFL I may need to purchase a lower from you. Why not follow the directions for a person picking up a Title 1 gun for a trust as stated on the 4473? seems like a no brainier to me. especially if you intend to form 1 said lower into a SBR.
Link Posted: 3/12/2015 12:37:16 AM EDT
My FFL in SW WA has me fill out a statement for any NFA stuff.
Link Posted: 5/1/2015 2:14:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scollins:


Every Form 4 that goes out, I have the transferee sign a statement saying they are picking up on behalf of the trust or corp. If someone wants the same statement for their Title I guns, no problem. I staple it to the 4473 and file it. You want a copy of the statement for your records, done.

View Quote



I know, old thread eat it.

I was with Tom when he was doing his interview for the FFL. One question I asked was if a person picking up a can purchased on a trust should make that statement and was told yes. Logically if you're going to SBR a lower on your trust, you either need to buy it on behalf of the trust, or transfer it into the trust before making it into the SBR. The trust itself must own the lower, not you as an individual since the trust is the one making and owning the SBR.
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