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Posted: 4/25/2011 2:00:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2011 12:36:18 PM EDT by Bulkan_ni_Angus]
Greetings fellow HTF'rs,


We've all heard stories of fudds at the ranges.



With this in mind, can we make a sticky of ranges, both indoor and out in WA state that would NOT welcome sound suppressors now that they are legal? (well, -90 days or so now)










I belong to Clark Rifles and was not sure regarding their approval of such.



I just fired off an email to them to find out, as soon as I hear I will post their response.



Also, The club membership meeting is this Wednesday at 7PM. I plan on attending, if I have not received an answer to my email inquiry I will bring it up.







5/6/11

Per an email I received from Clark Rifles.

Legally owned suppressors will be welcome


 
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 2:34:29 PM EDT
I could see a certain somebody at Sams going apeshit if you used a can there
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 3:04:56 PM EDT



Originally Posted By huskyfever03:


I could see a certain somebody at Sams going apeshit if you used a can there


Wherzzat?

 
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 3:20:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bulkan_ni_Angus:
We've all heard stories of fudds at the ranges


Have you hear the one about the operator and the duck?

Link Posted: 4/25/2011 4:59:11 PM EDT
RFGC says

They may have even thought the law was in effect after gov signed it.
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 5:32:38 PM EDT
On a similar thought, I left a message for the local sheriff, Grays Harbor County, checking to see if they'll sign off on suppressors.  Hopefully we can compile a list once the law is in effect.
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 6:27:12 PM EDT
The Marksman on Canyon will allow them when the law goes into effect.
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 6:44:17 PM EDT
You may use them anytime you wish in my backyard. Or, the front yard at night.
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 6:57:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bulkan_ni_Angus:
Greetings fellow HTF'rs,
We've all heard stories of fudds at the ranges.
With this in mind, can we make a sticky of ranges, both indoor and out in WA state that would NOT welcome sound suppressors now that they are legal? (well, -90 days or so now)

I belong to Clark Rifles and was not sure regarding their approval of such.
I just fired off an email to them to find out, as soon as I hear I will post their response.
Also, The club membership meeting is this Wednesday at 7PM. I plan on attending, if I have not received an answer to my email inquiry I will bring it up.


 


I plan on being at Clark Rifles on the 23rd with my SWR Spectre and Silencerco Osprey
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 7:05:40 PM EDT
I asked @ Sam's, I was told that they would 'review the law' when it comes into effect and make a decision then. NorPoint rangemaster said they would allow the suppressors on the effective date, they also mentioned the possibility of an open suppressor shoot, no details on that, and there was some uncertainty.

~Icarus
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 7:44:38 PM EDT
Why would a range not allow suppressors?
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 7:57:37 PM EDT
When I checked with Sam's, I wasn't expecting any other answer than 'yes'. Apparently the owner had a long standing 'No Suppressors' mentality. Although Sam's has allowed LEOs to use suppressors, it seemed as though Sam's management intends to interpret the law themselves, once it goes into effect. I was/am pretty surprised.

~Icarus
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 8:05:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2011 8:06:25 PM EDT by AnthonyL]
Originally Posted By dr_drae:
Why would a range not allow suppressors?


Why would a range only allow 10 rounds when a loaded 30 round magazine is perfectly legal in this state?

A lot of ranges on the west side of the mountains tend to have the most asinine rules, clearly intended to take all the fun out of shooting for everyone.
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 8:07:27 PM EDT
Evergreen Sportsmen's Club in Olympia will be allowing suppressors on the range starting July 23rd.

http://www.shootesc.com/
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 8:30:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AnthonyL:
Originally Posted By dr_drae:
Why would a range not allow suppressors?


Why would a range only allow 10 rounds single shot loading when a loaded 30 round magazine is perfectly legal in this state?

A lot of ranges on the west side of the mountains tend to have the most asinine rules, clearly intended to take all the fun out of shooting for everyone.


Because "you never know when that thing is going to go full auto". At least that's what the range master told me.

(for the record I'm pretty sure I know exactly when my FAL will go full auto. That would be NEVER)
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 8:52:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TNC:

Because "you never know when that thing is going to go full auto". At least that's what the range master told me.

(for the record I'm pretty sure I know exactly when my FAL will go full auto. That would be NEVER)


I got 'To reduce the ability for patrons to fire rapidly, the people who live around here call the cops if they think someone is shooting a machine gun' or 'we do it so we don't annoy the people living around the range [by slowing down the rate of fire]'

~Icarus
Link Posted: 4/25/2011 9:20:47 PM EDT
Don't even get me started on people who buy homes next to airports, military bases, gun ranges, etc and then complain about the noise.  HELLO!
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 2:25:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AMESO:
On a similar thought, I left a message for the local sheriff, Grays Harbor County, checking to see if they'll sign off on suppressors.  Hopefully we can compile a list once the law is in effect.


+1 for this , curious to know if king county will sign off on them yet
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 6:30:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2011 6:31:03 AM EDT by Genin]
(quote)
Because "you never know when that thing is going to go full auto". At least that's what the range master told me.

(for the record I'm pretty sure I know exactly when my FAL will go full auto. That would be NEVER)[/end quote]

With that stupid mentality, any semi-auto pistol could also go full auto.  PLEASE don't tell me that you have to load only one round at a time into a 1911, Glock, HK, Sig, Beretta, Ruger 22 pistol...

The primary difference between genius and stupidity:  Genius has it's limits.  (sure looks like it applies)
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 7:19:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SevenSixTwoxFiftyOne:
Originally Posted By AMESO:
On a similar thought, I left a message for the local sheriff, Grays Harbor County, checking to see if they'll sign off on suppressors.  Hopefully we can compile a list once the law is in effect.


+1 for this , curious to know if king county will sign off on them yet


Agreed.  I'm wondering this myself.  Unfortunately I have my doubts about KC.  It's legal, they should sign off.  Tired of this anti gun agenda shit.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 7:41:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LongTrang:
Originally Posted By SevenSixTwoxFiftyOne:
Originally Posted By AMESO:
On a similar thought, I left a message for the local sheriff, Grays Harbor County, checking to see if they'll sign off on suppressors.  Hopefully we can compile a list once the law is in effect.


+1 for this , curious to know if king county will sign off on them yet


Agreed.  I'm wondering this myself.  Unfortunately I have my doubts about KC.  It's legal, they should sign off.  Tired of this anti gun agenda shit.


It is now legal, and the State Preempts all firearms laws, and KC decides not to sign (or any other Law Enforcement Office) are they not asking to be sued like with the CCW in this state?  The AG would be suing them again.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 7:49:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By stevemc:
I plan on being at Clark Rifles on the 23rd with my SWR Spectre and Silencerco Osprey


Bring a case of Overquote to share with everyone.

Link Posted: 4/26/2011 7:51:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By stevemc:
I plan on being at Clark Rifles on the 23rd with my SWR Spectre and Silencerco Osprey


Bring a case of Overquote to share with everyone.



Will do.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 9:21:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FS-FNRL:
Originally Posted By LongTrang:
Originally Posted By SevenSixTwoxFiftyOne:
Originally Posted By AMESO:
On a similar thought, I left a message for the local sheriff, Grays Harbor County, checking to see if they'll sign off on suppressors.  Hopefully we can compile a list once the law is in effect.


+1 for this , curious to know if king county will sign off on them yet


Agreed.  I'm wondering this myself.  Unfortunately I have my doubts about KC.  It's legal, they should sign off.  Tired of this anti gun agenda shit.


It is now legal, and the State Preempts all firearms laws, and KC decides not to sign (or any other Law Enforcement Office) are they not asking to be sued like with the CCW in this state?  The AG would be suing them again.


FS-FNRL, you are mistaken, you are confused about two seperate subjects.

The Law that just passed is to now allow the use of sound suppressors within the state of WA with out getting a ticket/fine.

You have always been able to legally own suppressors in WA, the new law did nothing to force the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) to sign the ATF Form 4 or Form 1.  There is only  one or two states, TN specifically that has a state law that forces the CLEO to process the form within 2-3 weeks from receiving it, notice I didn't say they had to approve it, just process it.

There is a lot more information about the CLEO requirements that can be found in the NFA/Class 3section in the Armory.

A little history about the CLEO requirment goes back to the first inception of the NFA in 1934, since the Treasurey Department, aka the ATF didn't have a way to check the background of someone like they do now adays, they relied on the Local CLEO to sign off if the person submiting the form was a bad guy or not.  It has been discussed heavily that the need for the CLEO is no longer needed since the FBI does the background check.  Also since most CLEO seem to be anti gun and refuse to sign the forms, and the ATF knows that people are setting up trust because of this, which is legal, it has pissed them off to no end because they are unable to do a background check.  They have actually discovered they have approved transfers of NFA items to Felons.

So NFATCA has worked with the ATF and there is now a packet submitted up to the DOJ leadership to remove the CLEO sign off requirement since as stated it's no longer needed since the FBI will do the background check for them.  You can read more over on the http://www.nfatca.org/ website.
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 3:20:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TNC:
Because "you never know when that thing is going to go full auto". At least that's what the range master told me.


Had the Range "Master" at Tacoma Sportsmen say the same thing, that "If there is a cook off and it goes full auto then there is only 10 rounds instead of 30 and you can control it better"

Um....never seen it happen or had it happen but I did not want to start a debate on how and why it would not "Cook off"
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 4:26:59 PM EDT
I've brought the suppressor point up to a few of the ranges I'm a member of, only issue i've had so far is convincing them if i'm alone and shooting a suppressor, i don't need to wear hearing protection...

Link Posted: 4/26/2011 6:06:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2011 6:07:31 PM EDT by Scollins]
Originally Posted By Shermantor-AR15:
They have actually discovered they have approved transfers of NFA items to Felons.



I wonder how that has happened, because with a trust or corporate transfer, the dealer is required to complete a NICS check on the person representing the trust/corp and picking up the suppressor.  I'm guessing it is those cases where the dealer mistakenly reads the 4473 where it says "No NICS check is required for NFA transfers" (question 22, section B).  But that only applies to "individual" Form 4's, not corporation/trusts.  

The ATF's NFA Handbook spells it out in section 9.12.1:

9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-9.pdf

This is where people should also have language in their trust or articles of incorporation that any person prohibited by state or federal law from possessing firearms is not allowed to be a trustee/beneficiary/member/partner/director/officer/etc.  
Link Posted: 4/26/2011 8:08:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By topper:
I've brought the suppressor point up to a few of the ranges I'm a member of, only issue i've had so far is convincing them if i'm alone and shooting a suppressor, i don't need to wear hearing protection...



If you're indoors, you should be wearing hearing protection anyway.

This ain't Hollywood....
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:04:11 AM EDT
I like the cook off postulation. Sounds like Tacoma Sportsmans logic. Cook offs ussually only go for one round. If the barrel is still that damn hot it will take another second or two for the red hot barrel to cook another round. I have NEVER seen a semi cook off a round. I have seen  a beta equipped M16 cook off a round after about a 80-90 round burst.

For what it's worth, Black Diamond has been apprised of the situation and WILL allow suppressors though the RSO's ( Range Safety Officers) are still postulating a way to keep the illegal suppressors off their range and how to differentiate between the two. Expect to bring a copy of your form 4 at least once for them to verify. Might not be a bad time to build  your binder of applicable registration copies to bring with you. I would expect they are also considering that you need to have a copy of the form for the suppressor that you are currently using.

As for making lists of CLEO's that sign, that idea has both merit and peril. First it helps those who need to know who's signing. Secondly it also informs the anti's who's signing and subsequently could kill the golden signer who doesn't want his signature on a form for an NFA device that could become a public issue. This is kind of the consensus from subguns.com anyway where I spend most of my time. I hope that the signoff requirement simply goes away as the lawsuit is trying to accomplish. That would be freakin awesome!!!!
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 6:08:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2011 6:09:11 AM EDT by Shermantor-AR15]
Originally Posted By Scollins:
Originally Posted By Shermantor-AR15:
They have actually discovered they have approved transfers of NFA items to Felons.



I wonder how that has happened, because with a trust or corporate transfer, the dealer is required to complete a NICS check on the person representing the trust/corp and  


That is true, but think about it you could have a trustee with a clean record always go and pick up the item from the dealer.


My fault for only saying  transfers, I should have put, ATF has discovered they have approved NFA items for felons through the Trust route.
With my corrected language you can see how it can happen with a trust being used to file Form 1 for SBS/SBR etc... where there is no dealer involved and hence no NICS check is done on anyone.

Again, suggest going to the NFATCA website and join their forums.  They are probably the strongest advocate for repleaing the whole NFA process, unlike the NRA that knowingly let the MG ban happen for the greater good of gun rights.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 6:34:50 AM EDT
That is the last time I want to see two forms of the word postulate and the phrase 'freakin awesome' used in the same post here ever again.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 9:59:58 AM EDT
I'm heading out to TSC and will ask about suppressor use.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 10:51:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:

For what it's worth, Black Diamond has been apprised of the situation and WILL allow suppressors though the RSO's ( Range Safety Officers) are still postulating a way to keep the illegal suppressors off their range and how to differentiate between the two. Expect to bring a copy of your form 4 at least once for them to verify. Might not be a bad time to build  your binder of applicable registration copies to bring with you. I would expect they are also considering that you need to have a copy of the form for the suppressor that you are currently


Don't you have to have a company of each form4 for each suppressor together at all times?

Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:16:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:

For what it's worth, Black Diamond has been apprised of the situation and WILL allow suppressors though the RSO's ( Range Safety Officers) are still postulating a way to keep the illegal suppressors off their range and how to differentiate between the two. Expect to bring a copy of your form 4 at least once for them to verify. Might not be a bad time to build  your binder of applicable registration copies to bring with you. I would expect they are also considering that you need to have a copy of the form for the suppressor that you are currently


Don't you have to have a company of each form4 for each suppressor together at all times?



It has been debated a lot over in the NFA section, but under federal law you are only required to show it to an ATF agent when they ask to see it.  all other LEO can go pound sand, however states like TX and WA that have this type of language in their laws "It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution" means they can arrest you even if you do have the proof with you, and will have to goto court to prove that it is registered.

So basically IMO keep a copy with you and most LEO will leave you alone if you show them that, but if you piss them off they'll arrest you and make you have a really bad day.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 7:09:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Shermantor-AR15:
Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:

For what it's worth, Black Diamond has been apprised of the situation and WILL allow suppressors though the RSO's ( Range Safety Officers) are still postulating a way to keep the illegal suppressors off their range and how to differentiate between the two. Expect to bring a copy of your form 4 at least once for them to verify. Might not be a bad time to build  your binder of applicable registration copies to bring with you. I would expect they are also considering that you need to have a copy of the form for the suppressor that you are currently


Don't you have to have a company of each form4 for each suppressor together at all times?



It has been debated a lot over in the NFA section, but under federal law you are only required to show it to an ATF agent when they ask to see it.  all other LEO can go pound sand, however states like TX and WA that have this type of language in their laws "It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution" means they can arrest you even if you do have the proof with you, and will have to goto court to prove that it is registered.

So basically IMO keep a copy with you and most LEO will leave you alone if you show them that, but if you piss them off they'll arrest you and make you have a really bad day.


Nothing like pissing on the 4th
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:02:48 AM EDT
I am not really going to try and provide legal advice since I am not an attourney, but if you want my opinion and what I think the BDGC will do, I would carry a binder with a quality photo copy of your form with you just in case. If your at a place where they know you, you might not have to be so meticulous. Others have said you don't need to carry one with you, I would tend to agree.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:05:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
That is the last time I want to see two forms of the word postulate and the phrase 'freakin awesome' used in the same post here ever again.


Would you prefer to have me just say formulating and fucking awesome or would you just continue to harp?
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:18:23 AM EDT
In the years I have been bringing silencers to more friendly states, the public ranges do not care about seeing registration forms, the private ones want to see them.  You do not have to show them, but the private range owner can stop you from using them.

Ranb
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:55:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:
or would you just continue to harp?


I will postulate that you would love to hear some freakin awesome music!



Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:04:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:
or would you just continue to harp?


I will postulate that you would love to hear some freakin awesome music!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5456914064_03b13dde17.jpg



I didn't know Ray Charles played a harp?!!
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 8:46:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LongTrang:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:
or would you just continue to harp?


I will postulate that you would love to hear some freakin awesome music!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5456914064_03b13dde17.jpg



I didn't know Ray Charles played a harp?!!


I was going to say Obama


Link Posted: 4/29/2011 8:48:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gearhead1940:
Originally Posted By LongTrang:
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By WA-Tom:
or would you just continue to harp?


I will postulate that you would love to hear some freakin awesome music!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5456914064_03b13dde17.jpg



I didn't know Ray Charles played a harp?!!


I was going to say Obama




Jaime Foxx?????  ???
Link Posted: 5/3/2011 3:06:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By huskyfever03:
I could see a certain somebody at Sams going apeshit if you used a can there


I can bet you that I know who that person is.  He's seems to have something stuck up his ass at all times..
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