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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/22/2006 1:35:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 1:53:37 PM EDT by KA3B]
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:42:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 1:47:15 PM EDT by STRATIOTES]


Say WA



Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:49:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 1:52:58 PM EDT by KA3B]
Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:01:13 PM EDT
The Virtues of a Militia by George Washington

"Were it not totally unnecessary and superfluous to adduce arguments to prove what is conceded on all hands the Policy and expediency of resting the protection of the Country on a respectable and well established Militia, we might not only shew the propriety of the measure from our peculiar local situation, but we might have recourse to the Histories of Greece and Rome in their most virtuous and Patriotic ages to demonstrate the Utility of such Establishments. Then passing by the Mercinary Armies, which have at one time or another subverted the liberties of all most all the Countries they have been raised to defend, we might see, with admiration, the Freedom and Independence of Switzerland supported for Centuries, in the midst of powerful and jealous neighbours, by means of a hardy and well organized Militia. We might also derive useful lessons of a similar kind from other Nations of Europe, but I believe it will be found, the People of this Continent are too well acquainted with the Merits of the subject to require information or example. I shall therefore proceed to point out some general outlines of their duty, and conclude this head with a few particular observations on the regulations which I conceive ought to be immediately adopted by the States at the instance and recommendation of Congress.

It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency, for these purposes they ought to be duly organized into Commands of the same formation; (it is not of very great importance, whether the Regiments are Large or small, provided a sameness prevails in the strength and composition of them and I do not know that a better establishment, than that under which the Continental Troops now are, can be adopted. They ought to be regularly Mustered and trained, and to have their Arms and Accoutrements inspected at certain appointed times, not less than once or twice in the course of every [year] but as it is obvious, amongst such a Multitude of People (who may indeed be useful for temporary service) there must be a great number, who from domestic Circumstances, bodily defects, natural awkwardness or disinclination, can never acquire the habits of Soldiers; but on the contrary will injure the appearance of any body of Troops to which they are attached, and as there are a sufficient proportion of able bodied young Men, between the Age of 18 and 25, who, from a natural fondness for Military parade (which passion is almost ever prevalent at that period of life) might easily be enlisted or drafted to form a Corps in every State, capable of resisting any sudden impression which might be attempted by a foreign Enemy, while the remainder of the National forces would have time to Assemble and make preparations for the Field. I would wish therefore, that the former, being considered as a denier resort, reserved for some great occasion, a judicious system might be adopted for forming and placing the latter on the best possible Establishment. And that while the Men of this description shall be viewed as the Van and flower of the American Forces, ever ready for Action and zealous to be employed whenever it may become necessary in the service of their Country; they should meet with such exemptions, privileges or distinctions, as might tend to keep alive a true Military pride, a nice sense of honour, and a patriotic regard for the public. Such sentiments, indeed, ought to be instilled into our Youth, with their earliest years, to be cherished and inculcated as frequently and forcibly as possible. " -

George Washington, May 1, 1783, Peace Settlement

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:03:12 PM EDT



National Militia
[andrew jackson]

First Inaugural Address, March 4 1829
Andrew Jackson

Considering standing armies as dangerous to free governments in time of peace, I shall not seek to enlarge our present establishment, nor disregard that salutary lesson of political experience which teaches that the military should be held subordinate to the civil power. The gradual increase of our Navy, whose flag has displayed in distant climes our skill in naviagaion and our fame in arms; the preservation of our forts, arsenals, and dockyards, and the introduction of progressive improvements in the discipline and science of both branches of our military service are so plainly prescribed by prudence that I should be excused for omitting their mention sooner than for enlarging on their importance.

But the bulwark of our defense is the national militia, which in the present state of our intelligence and population must render us invincible. As long as our Government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of person and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending; and so long as it is worth defending a patriotic militia will cover it with an impenetrable aegis. Partial injuries and occasional mortifications we may be subjected to, but a million of armed freemen, possessed of the means of war, can never be conquered by a foreign foe. To any just system, therefore, calculated to strengthen this natural safeguard of the country I shall cheerfully lend all the aid in my power.

Return

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:21:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:14:55 PM EDT
,
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:23:39 PM EDT
When it comes to the second ammendment, we are the "people". If and when the time comes, we will become the "militia" and not any time sooner, despite the wishes and prayers of delusional mountain men

But please keep those airsoft pictures coming.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:28:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:04:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:06:52 PM EDT by Matt45]

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
When it comes to the second ammendment, we are the "people". If and when the time comes, we will become the "militia" and not any time sooner, despite the wishes and prayers of delusional mountain men

But please keep those airsoft pictures coming.





....by means of a hardy and well organized Militia. NOT the under equipped, disorganized rabble shown above.

...conclude this head with a few particular observations on the regulations which I conceive ought to be immediately adopted by the States at the instance and recommendation of Congress. Meaning that this is a Op-Ed peice, and the opinion contained within carries no more weight than my own, or anyone else's for theat matter.

It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it... Since Strat says that you can't truly own property, I can only deduce, that by the Former President's opinion, he, (You Strat) is not eligable to be a member of the Militia.

...Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them...Exactly what arms and equipment are provided to you Strat? What training has the gov't provided in their use? There's hardly a uniform simular in any pic, nor a firearm of the same compisition.

...that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency, for these purposes they ought to be duly organized into Commands of the same formation...Which is why our ADT orders read "Do Not enter into the Active Strength of the Army". You see, the formally organized National Guard system is the Reserve of which the framers spoke, to be called forth in times of "intresting Emergency"...NOT a bunch of Bubbas in tiger stripes with questionably suspect leadership.

They ought to be regularly Mustered and trained, and to have their Arms and Accoutrements inspected at certain appointed times, not less than once or twice in the course of every [year] but as it is obvious, amongst such a Multitude of People (who may indeed be useful for temporary service) there must be a great number, who from domestic Circumstances, bodily defects, natural awkwardness or disinclination, can never acquire the habits of Soldiers; but on the contrary will injure the appearance of any body of Troops to which they are attached, Meaning a bunch of deranged, out of shape bubbas really isn't wanted as long there is a sufficient pool ofand as there are a sufficient proportion of able bodied young Men, between the Age of 18 and 25, who, from a natural fondness for Military parade (which passion is almost ever prevalent at that period of life) might easily be enlisted or drafted to form a Corps in every State, capable of resisting any sudden impression which might be attempted by a foreign Enemy, while the remainder of the National forces would have time to Assemble and make preparations for the Field. I would wish therefore, that the former, being considered as a denier resort, reserved for some great occasion, a judicious system might be adopted for forming and placing the latter on the best possible Establishment.
Again, this speaks of the formation of a structred National Guard, and Reserve, supported by the State and Federal Gov't...the gov't elected by the people, for the people. Not the disilliousioned, mockery of a fighting force your "FF 42" is at best. You have no right (Even less chance of sucess) to impress your will and politics on anyone, especially it's by violant action.

There ways you can help- If you don't like the politics, concentrate on that, not South American juanta & coup de'ta tactics.
Convince others that their voice needs to be heard, and get them to do the same. Enough voices will drown the libs, & make the dishonest run. But this is a very large thing, that can only be accomplished with great effort. This points lead me to Former President Jackson-

As long as our Government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of person and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending; and so long as it is worth defending a patriotic militia will cover it with an impenetrable aegis.

Partial injuries and occasional mortifications we may be subjected to... Ruby Ridge, Waco??? three years apart, Nothing simular prior to or since? I'd call that Occasional.


...a million of armed freemen, possessed of the means of war, can never be conquered by a foreign foe.
What was that second to last word????????????" foreign" Hmmm'K?

To any just system, therefore, calculated to strengthen this natural safeguard of the country I shall cheerfully lend all the aid in my power. He must mean a system where folks can be called to duty in time of crisis...something in an orderly fashion, something closely regulated and monitered.....Hmmmmm- HOW ABOUT THE ARMY NATIONAL FUCKING GUARD & RESERVES???


Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:12:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
When it comes to the second ammendment, we are the "people". If and when the time comes, we will become the "militia" and not any time sooner, despite the wishes and prayers of delusional mountain men

But please keep those airsoft pictures coming.





....by means of a hardy and well organized Militia. NOT the under equipped, disorganized rabble shown above.

...conclude this head with a few particular observations on the regulations which I conceive ought to be immediately adopted by the States at the instance and recommendation of Congress. Meaning that this is a Op-Ed peice, and the opinion contained within carries no more weight than my own, or anyone else's for theat matter.

It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it... Since Strat says that you can't truly own property, I can only deduce, that by the Former President's opinion, he, (You Strat) is not eligable to be a member of the Militia.

...Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them...Exactly what arms and equipment are provided to you Strat? What training has the gov't provided in their use? There's hardly a uniform simular in any pic, nor a firearm of the same compisition.

...that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency, for these purposes they ought to be duly organized into Commands of the same formation...Which is why our ADT orders read "Do Not enter into the Active Strength of the Army". You see, the formally organized National Guard system is the Reserve of which the framers spoke, to be called forth in times of "intresting Emergency"...NOT a bunch of Bubbas in tiger stripes with questionably suspect leadership.

They ought to be regularly Mustered and trained, and to have their Arms and Accoutrements inspected at certain appointed times, not less than once or twice in the course of every [year] but as it is obvious, amongst such a Multitude of People (who may indeed be useful for temporary service) there must be a great number, who from domestic Circumstances, bodily defects, natural awkwardness or disinclination, can never acquire the habits of Soldiers; but on the contrary will injure the appearance of any body of Troops to which they are attached, Meaning a bunch of deranged, out of shape bubbas really isn't wanted as long there is a sufficient pool ofand as there are a sufficient proportion of able bodied young Men, between the Age of 18 and 25, who, from a natural fondness for Military parade (which passion is almost ever prevalent at that period of life) might easily be enlisted or drafted to form a Corps in every State, capable of resisting any sudden impression which might be attempted by a foreign Enemy, while the remainder of the National forces would have time to Assemble and make preparations for the Field. I would wish therefore, that the former, being considered as a denier resort, reserved for some great occasion, a judicious system might be adopted for forming and placing the latter on the best possible Establishment.
Again, this speaks of the formation of a structred National Guard, and Reserve, supported by the State and Federal Gov't...the gov't elected by the people, for the people. Not the disilliousioned, mockery of a fighting force your "FF 42" is at best. You have no right (Even less chance of sucess) to impress your will and politics on anyone, especially it's by violant action.

There ways you can help- If you don't like the politics, concentrate on that, not South American juanta & coup de'ta tactics.
Convince others that their voice needs to be heard, and get them to do the same. Enough voices will drown the libs, & make the dishonest run. But this is a very large thing, that can only be accomplished with great effort. This points lead me to Former President Jackson-

As long as our Government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of person and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending; and so long as it is worth defending a patriotic militia will cover it with an impenetrable aegis.

Partial injuries and occasional mortifications we may be subjected to... Ruby Ridge, Waco??? three years apart, Nothing simular prior to or since? I'd call that Occasional.


...a million of armed freemen, possessed of the means of war, can never be conquered by a foreign foe.
What was that second to last word????????????" foreign" Hmmm'K?

To any just system, therefore, calculated to strengthen this natural safeguard of the country I shall cheerfully lend all the aid in my power. He must mean a system where folks can be called to duty in time of crisis...something in an orderly fashion, something closely regulated and monitered.....Hmmmmm- HOW ABOUT THE ARMY NATIONAL FUCKING GUARD & RESERVES???






Oops to much reality for them Matt45, their heads may explode.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:28:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:
HOW ABOUT THE ARMY NATIONAL FUCKING GUARD & RESERVES???



The framers are talking about late 1700's to early 1800's militia, not a national body created over a hundred years later in 1903.

Nothing about the militia is under State control, the militia is of, by and for the people and under direct control of the people.
This quote from a vowed facist federalist.

The militia is a voluntary force not associated or under the control of the States except when called out; [ when called into actual service] a permanent or long standing force would be entirely different in make-up and call. -- Alexander Hamilton in Federalist Paper No. 28



A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms. -- Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.



We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. --- Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:47:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Matt45:
HOW ABOUT THE ARMY NATIONAL FUCKING GUARD & RESERVES???



The framers are talking about late 1700's to early 1800's militia, not a national body created over a hundred years later in 1903.

Nothing about the militia is under State control, the militia is of, by and for the people and under direct control of the people.
This quote from a vowed facist federalist.

The militia is a voluntary force not associated or under the control of the States except when called outYou seem to have forgotten this part, if you are called out, your untder the control of the Governor. Without that your simply an illegal rabble.; [ when called into actual service] a permanent or long standing force would be entirely different in make-up and call. -- Alexander Hamilton in Federalist Paper No. 28



A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms. -- Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.



We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. --- Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:55:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:





Seen the new $10.00 bill?
"We, the People" is prominent on the face of the bill.
I LIKE IT.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:55:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Matt45:
HOW ABOUT THE ARMY NATIONAL FUCKING GUARD & RESERVES???



The framers are talking about late 1700's to early 1800's militia, not a national body created over a hundred years later in 1903.

Nothing about the militia is under State control, the militia is of, by and for the people and under direct control of the people.
This quote from a vowed facist federalist.

The militia is a voluntary force not associated or under the control of the States except when called outYou seem to have forgotten this part, if you are called out, your untder the control of the Governor. Without that your simply an illegal rabble.; [ when called into actual service] a permanent or long standing force would be entirely different in make-up and call. -- Alexander Hamilton in Federalist Paper No. 28






Exactly Strat- What may have seem to be the norm, reasonable, or a good way to take care of business in late 1700's to early 1800's IS not necessarrily so today.

Once more for emphasis-
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
You seem to have forgotten this part, if you are called out, your untder the control of the Governor. Without that your simply an illegal rabble.;
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:12:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:
Without that your simply an illegal rabble.;



Tyrants are rebels only !
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:15:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 6:15:37 PM EDT by 161Infantry]

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Matt45:
Without that your simply an illegal rabble.;



Tyrants are rebels only !



You forget your meds?? Try a coherant sentance ok.(whispers, loonie tunes).
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:18:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:

....by means of a hardy and well organized Militia. NOT the under equipped, disorganized rabble shown above.




I wonder if that is what the British thought of the Minutemen?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:31:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 7:22:51 PM EDT by huge_gator]

Originally Posted By migradog:

Originally Posted By Matt45:

....by means of a hardy and well organized Militia. NOT the under equipped, disorganized rabble shown above.




I wonder if that is what the British thought of the Minutemen?



You have a point there.
Isn't the notion of the militia one of vigilance and the ability to defend ourselves and our communities in times of crises from enemies foreign or domestic? Or are we to stay put and take an invasion or dictatorship passively? Would Matt45 give up his guns if the gov't told him it was for the common good? Would he get onto the cattle car to Aushwitz if they told him to? Would a guy like Strat?

<edit> just figured out Matt would be the one putting the rest of us onto the trains. Sorry about that. Please disregard my comments <edit>
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:22:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 7:23:14 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Which is why our ADT orders read "Do Not enter into the Active Strength of the Army". You see, the formally organized National Guard system is the Reserve of which the framers spoke, to be called forth in times of "intresting Emergency"...NOT a bunch of Bubbas in tiger stripes with questionably suspect leadership.


They also speak of a million or more men under arms and of the van of the troops and the follow on troops. The Guard and the Reserves are only a small part of America's men under arms.

The Washington State Militia is comprised, by law, of all able-bodied adults over 18.

RCW 38.04.030
Composition of the militia.



The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.




RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.



In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace, if the governor shall have ordered into active service all of the available forces of the organized militia of Washington and shall consider them insufficient in number to properly accomplish the purpose, he or she may then in addition order out the unorganized militia or such portion thereof as he may deem necessary, and cause them to perform such military duty as the circumstances may require.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:26:37 PM EDT
If there unorganized, how are they gonna respond? Besides Stract doesnt believe that the Gov,(Greg) has any authority over them. So I guess they will be rampaging up and down the I-5 corridor without any real legit power of anykind(insert Mob/illegal insurgents here).
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:34:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
If there unorganized, how are they gonna respond? Besides Stract doesnt believe that the Gov,(Greg) has any authority over them. So I guess they will be rampaging up and down the I-5 corridor without any real legit power of anykind(insert Mob/illegal insurgents here).



Hey, we won't know until it plays out. I doubt most people are aware that they may be pressed into service at some point in their lives, under what could only be described as desperate circumstances.

I just like to point out that, like it, or not, or know it, or not, everybody is already in the militia.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:35:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
If there unorganized, how are they gonna respond? Besides Stract doesnt believe that the Gov,(Greg) has any authority over them. So I guess they will be rampaging up and down the I-5 corridor without any real legit power of anykind(insert Mob/illegal insurgents here).



AHA! You've answered the real question! None of the Militia vs the Gov. argument means shit when you realize that if the SHTF doesn't happen real soon we'll be speaking Spanish anyway in ten years. It's a mote point, 50% Mexican population controlled by a Chinese owned economy coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 7:41:44 PM EDT
You will be issued your Aztlan National Guard patches shortly, Matt.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:00:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
You will be issued your Aztlan National Guard patches shortly, Matt.



Its ok, Spanish chicks are hot and since we will be the minority, we can get food stamps and welfare.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:12:40 PM EDT
...

The right to keep and bear arms is to allow for people to violently overthrow the government if it ever came to that, right? I don't think the use of the word "militia" means giving a bunch of gun nuts a reason to put on camo and play soldier. The 2nd ammendment is not for "playing soldier" it's for "kicking ass"... in the event we needed to. I don't know about you, but i'd prefer that change in the government was civil instead of violent.

If you want to be part of a well organized para-military group may I suggest the national guard?

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:21:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
...

The right to keep and bear arms is to allow for people to violently overthrow the government if it ever came to that, right? I don't think the use of the word "militia" means giving a bunch of gun nuts a reason to put on camo and play soldier. The 2nd ammendment is not for "playing soldier" it's for "kicking ass"... in the event we needed to. I don't know about you, but i'd prefer that change in the government was civil instead of violent.

If you want to be part of a well organized para-military group may I suggest the national guard?




Bingo, we have a winner!!!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:34:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 9:00:33 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
I don't think that's gonna work, you're missing a couple key points, but you know what they are. You just can't afford to embrace the whole picture, you have to spray your graffiti around. You aren't asking the hard questions, you're working from a set of assumptions.

We have tried not to ridicule you, as soldiers, no one has disparaged your skills at arms. You have heaped scorn on us, as people and as veterans, and you continue to do so. We have our beliefs and you haven't changed them, just reinforced them. They won't change.

You feel you're too good to play with us and that's fine, we'll continue without you. We buy our own weapons and gear and prepare for the day out of our own pockets. You collect a check and play with what we bought you, constantly reminding us how much better you are.

This is a forum for us AR fans and gun nuts, you may need your own professional forum. We're really not in your league. I like Stratiotes and I like to listen to what he says. Let him speak. You're not saying anything I don't already know. Take your humiliation, scorn, accusations and threats and go play with the REAL soldiers.

That or stop acting so damn arrogant. This is not Iraq, and it's not the Guard. You're bullying your peers and if you don't think we're your peers, well then, you're in the wrong place.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:39:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
If there unorganized, how are they gonna respond? Besides Stract doesnt believe that the Gov,(Greg) has any authority over them. So I guess they will be rampaging up and down the I-5 corridor without any real legit power of anykind(insert Mob/illegal insurgents here).




Who will respond, if not us?

It wasn't the government, the army or the politicians that gave birth to the United States.
It was the "unorganized" farmers, shop owners and ordinary men.
This "unorganized" militia stood up to and vanquished a better armed, organized British Army.

Under the 10th Amendment if a militia is neither federal or state, it's the people's as I understand it.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:49:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 8:53:09 PM EDT by Matt45]

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
RCW 38.04.030
Composition of the militia.



The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.




RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.



In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace, if the governor shall have ordered into active service all of the available forces of the organized militia of Washington and shall consider them insufficient in number to properly accomplish the purpose, he or she may then in addition order out the unorganized militia or such portion thereof as he may deem necessary, and cause them to perform such military duty as the circumstances may require.





Not that you've intermingled reality to Strat's fantasy......Exactly where do you fall into all of this Strat?

Will you follow the Governer's orders, to the letter?

Will you perform your duties without pushing your own agenda?

If so ordered, will you fire into a crowd that is looting and comitting arson?

Would you bar a person from entering an area that has been deemed "Unsafe" because of contamination or some other reason? Even if they owned property there?

Would you fire upon a crowd that is rioting and your "troops" were in danger of being seriously harmed? Even if it were at a food distribution point?

Would you fire tear gas into a crowd, and disperse them will physical force, if they are assembly unlawfully, in not in a peaceable manner?

Will you stand down once ordered to do so?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:05:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 11:14:46 PM EDT by Matt45]

Originally Posted By migradog:

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
If there unorganized, how are they gonna respond? Besides Stract doesnt believe that the Gov,(Greg) has any authority over them. So I guess they will be rampaging up and down the I-5 corridor without any real legit power of anykind(insert Mob/illegal insurgents here).




Who will respond, if not us?

It wasn't the government, the army or the politicians that gave birth to the United States.
It was the "unorganized" farmers, shop owners and ordinary men.
This "unorganized" militia stood up to and vanquished a better armed, organized British Army.

Under the 10th Amendment if a militia is neither federal or state, it's the people's as I understand it.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong.





Catch up will ya?
You're about as wrong as two boys, in the vestabule......
What's being argued here is the validity of that "militia", as defenders of the nation, or seditionists acting under the supposed color of the Constitution.

The unorganized militia was responsible for the founding of this country....if we'd HAD an Active Duty, or National Guard/Reserves.....don'cha think we woulda used it?????? But we didn't...Now we do.

The time of the birth of this country has long passed and what we are grappling with is a new animal. It's by no stretch a piss-pot dictatorship, although some here like to characterize it as such, and it's also by no means the grossly corrupt government Russia has today. It's complicated, and the laws in our land are often confused, countermanded and distorted by the mandates of other agencies, and regulations. Therein lies some problems and pitfalls, along with the libtards, corrupt politicians of all parties, and the big corporations acting like high-dollar grifters. It's the control of the factors that are eroding our country is what's at the core of this running debate, and WHEN the average citizens has the right to bear arms against it, the establishment, to right the wrongs and prevent future miscarriages and injustices from being placed upon us.
I for one, will not stand idely by and listen to seditious talk, or be still while someone speaks of what I consider to be tanamount to conspiracy to overthrow the lawful government that we have.
I've written this before, and will continue to write it-
Ours is not the BEST sytem, but it's the best damn game in town.
I will actively persue, and attempt to nuetralize anyone who means it harm.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:05:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
RCW 38.04.030
Composition of the militia.



The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.




RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.



In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace, if the governor shall have ordered into active service all of the available forces of the organized militia of Washington and shall consider them insufficient in number to properly accomplish the purpose, he or she may then in addition order out the unorganized militia or such portion thereof as he may deem necessary, and cause them to perform such military duty as the circumstances may require.





Not that you've intermingled reality to Strat's fantasy......Exactly where do you fall into all of this Strat?

Will you follow the Governer's orders, to the letter?

Will you perform your duties without pushing your own agenda?

If so ordered, will you fire into a crowd that is looting and comitting arson?

Would you fire tear gas into a crowd, and disperse them will physical force, if they are assembly unlawfully, in not in a peaceable manner?

Will you stand down once ordered to do so?




OK , I had asked a question in another thread. I'll ask again. If you were issued a illegal order and you knew clearly it was illegal . such as firing into crowd of people(shoot to kill). Demanding food, remember this is a peaceful demonstration. Things are bad and very tense and people on both sides are scared, and your boss Say's to open fire. Would you?

Here is the deal. You must answer with yes or no only. you cannot qualify your answer in anyway, ie they were looting or something to that affect. 161 INF. did answer but he qualified it with a with a statement.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:07:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
RCW 38.04.030
Composition of the militia.



The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.




RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.



In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace, if the governor shall have ordered into active service all of the available forces of the organized militia of Washington and shall consider them insufficient in number to properly accomplish the purpose, he or she may then in addition order out the unorganized militia or such portion thereof as he may deem necessary, and cause them to perform such military duty as the circumstances may require.





Not that you've intermingled reality to Strat's fantasy......Exactly where do you fall into all of this Strat?

Will you follow the Governer's orders, to the letter?

Will you perform your duties without pushing your own agenda?

If so ordered, will you fire into a crowd that is looting and comitting arson?

Would you bar a person from entering an area that has been deemed "Unsafe" because of contamination or some other reason? Even if they owned property there?

Would you fire upon a crowd that is rioting and your "troops" were in danger of being seriously harmed? Even if it were at a food distribution point?

Would you fire tear gas into a crowd, and disperse them will physical force, if they are assembly unlawfully, in not in a peaceable manner?

Will you stand down once ordered to do so?



Jeebus, now you are trying to interrogate poor Strat. We're civilians, we'll do what we think is best when we face the situation. That is how it works, outside the military. Save your loyalty interrogations for the kids, they're gullible. We don't have to answer and know better than to answer.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:13:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Jeebus, now you are trying to interrogate poor Strat. We're civilians, we'll do what we think is best when we face the situation. That is how it works, outside the military. Save your loyalty interrogations for the kids, they're gullible. We don't have to answer and know better than to answer.





FUCKING X-Ring.
There's no interrogation....no TA-312, bamboo slivers, sleep dep...just a few simple questions that I know you all are afraid to answer.

You've got cboyer asking me the ident question above? WTF?

YOU won't answer, because you are absolutely scared to death that those won't imbibe as heavily in the KoolAid will realize that you are NOT the benevolent saviours of the Constitution, but a bunch a rabble, wanting to impose your political views on ALL of us. Talk about a heavy-duty Robin Hood complex...sheesh- You're all half-wonky.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:20:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Jeebus, now you are trying to interrogate poor Strat. We're civilians, we'll do what we think is best when we face the situation. That is how it works, outside the military. Save your loyalty interrogations for the kids, they're gullible. We don't have to answer and know better than to answer.





FUCKING X-Ring.
There's no interrogation....no TA-312, bamboo slivers, sleep dep...just a few simple questions that I know you all are afraid to answer.

You've got cboyer asking me the ident question above? WTF?

YOU won't answer, because you are absolutely scared to death that those won't imbibe as heavily in the KoolAid will realize that you are NOT the benevolent saviours of the Constitution, but a bunch a rabble, wanting to impose your political views on ALL of us. Talk about a heavy-duty Robin Hood complex...sheesh- You're all half-wonky.



No Matt I'm not part of that.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:22:48 PM EDT




RCW 38.08.050
Governor may order out unorganized militia.



In event of, or imminent danger of, war, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, tumult, riot, resistance to law or process or breach of the peace,





Only two things scare me. One of them is tumult.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:32:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
When it comes to the second ammendment, we are the "people". If and when the time comes, we will become the "militia" and not any time sooner, despite the wishes and prayers of delusional mountain men

But please keep those airsoft pictures coming.




So tell me, do you really think you'll be up for the task at hand if you don't train ahead of time?
How many people will die on OJT because they didn't train ahead of time because they believed they would be breaking some non-existant law? The 2nd Amendment states: A well regulated (Trained) militia, being necesarry for the security of a free state, the right of the people(that's you and me) to keep and bear arms (so we can train before TSHTF) shall not be infringed. What that means in the simplest of terms is that the Founding Fathers gave us (their prosterity) a job to do in order to keep the shit from hitting the fan. If the militia were up and running (well regulated) in the manner that the Founding Fathers would have prefered, I can gaurantee you that we wouldn't have the problems with a tryanical out of control government that we have today. Secondly the idea that you express is completely contrary to the Art of War. Sun Zu stated that the time to train for war is during a time of peace. If you have to train during the war then it is too late.


Link Posted: 3/22/2006 9:56:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cboyer:
OK , I had asked a question in another thread. I'll ask again. If you were issued a illegal order and you knew clearly it was illegal . such as firing into crowd of people(shoot to kill). Demanding food, remember this is a peaceful demonstration. Things are bad and very tense and people on both sides are scared, and your boss Say's to open fire. Would you?

Here is the deal. You must answer with yes or no only. you cannot qualify your answer in anyway, ie they were looting or something to that affect. 161 INF. did answer but he qualified it with a with a statement.




Originally Posted By Cboyer:

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:

Originally Posted By Cboyer:

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:

Originally Posted By Boomer

So you are admittedly prepared to follow orders and kill fellow Americans regardless of the reason for the uprising? Is this Chairborne's new user name?



Lets see if people loot, murder, rape and burn buidlings in our cities, I have no problem killing my fellow man.. At no time did I say for any reason, if your breaking the law ie(new Orleans, LA riots) Then you will have to take your medicine. Now if your saying general uprising against an oppresive Government, that is a decision (whether we side with the government or the people) that those of us in uniform will have to make if it ever happens(God willing it wont).
I suppose Boomer we should simply let Anarchy reign in our cities and do nothing right?? Obviously talking to looters doesnt do any good, what would you do???



Wow. Kinda like Kent State. Wasn't that a Guard action?



And your solution?You people bitch when the military does something and you bitch when it does nothing. You will never be pleased with anything, because your blinded by your own self-interests. Some of you live a dream-land where one day you will RISE up and take over(or so you think). You will simply replace one form of repression with another, keep living in fantasyland. The militia has no supplies, transportation, Medicine or other necessary resources necessary to rebuild this country. Where would all that come from?? You would simply steal it, just like the government does.



Actually I was hoping to make this a segway into another question. What if you were ordered to open fire (shoot to kill) on a peaceful protest during some disaster. When the .gov couldn't or wouldn't supply food or medicine. Sorry, no wiggle room on this such as Well if they did something illegal. They are not. What would you do? Forget the militia for a moment.




Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
If they are peaceful, why would we need to fire? If ordered to do so by a superior officer, its an unlawful order and I would not follow it. If they are looting, burning etc, now thats another matter.




I refuse to answer your question as framed with the narrow response perameter, since any monolithic response I give can, (And most likely will), be mis-construed and twisted at a later time. Suffice it to say I have an obligation and am bound morally to refuse to execute an order I feel is illegal.

I will restate this however,-

You folks will just have to go to sleep each night wondering if my morale compass is strong to detect right from wrong.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:09:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
I don't think that's gonna work, you're missing a couple key points, but you know what they are. You just can't afford to embrace the whole picture, you have to spray your graffiti around. You aren't asking the hard questions, you're working from a set of assumptions.Yes, my so-called assumptions are something that's been stated by Strat...he call the people in Gov't thieves, and then writes about how the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike....WTF is THAT?

We have tried not to ridicule you, as soldiers, no one has disparaged your skills at arms. You have heaped scorn on us, as people and as veterans, and you continue to do so. We have our beliefs and you haven't changed them, just reinforced them. They won't change.Perhaps not you, or Strat are the inept "Unorg militia I've met, but a great many are. I've never challenged you service record, or feel that I've ever slighted your service directly. If I have done so, I apologize, but in the same light, if you choose to associate with persons whom I feel are motivated by faulty logic and questionable ideals, and support them, then I have no choice but to lump you in there with the rest.

You feel you're too good to play with us and that's fine, we'll continue without you. We buy our own weapons and gear and prepare for the day out of our own pockets. You collect a check and play with what we bought you, constantly reminding us how much better you are.Yes, there are more than a few "militia" members I feel that I am better than. Thanks for the goodies.

This is a forum for us AR fans and gun nuts, you may need your own professional forum. We're really not in your league. I like Stratiotes and I like to listen to what he says. Let him speak. You're not saying anything I don't already know. Take your humiliation, scorn, accusations and threats and go play with the REAL soldiers.Damn!!!!!!!! OK....where the hell is that t-shirt...I know I've got several, but seem to have lost track of it. I never tried to supress Strat's speech on this board, somethimes I like it when he rambles. In the same tokan, should you try to suppress mine?

What was that you posted, this isn't about you.....


That or stop acting so damn arrogant. This is not Iraq, and it's not the Guard. You're bullying your peers and if you don't think we're your peers, well then, you're in the wrong place.I'm not bullying shit. I'm debating an issue. If it's getting to heated, take a nitro, turn off the PC and go watch the news.............



WAIT! I didn't mean that.
Don't watch the news, you'll have a grabber for sure if this raises you BP.
Stay right here, and continue to influance opinion.



Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:36:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 10:36:46 PM EDT by Matt45]
In another post, I was digging for an unrelated answer, but uncovered what I think might be the Unorg's theme song.


Aginst Th' Law

It´s aginst th´ law to walk, It´s aginst th´ law to talk
It´s against th´ law to loaf, It´s aginst th´ law to work
It´s aginst th´ law to read, It´s aginst th´ law to write
It´s aginst th´ law to be a black or brown or white.

Ever´thing’s aginst th´ law
I´m a low pay daddy singing th´ high price blues

It´s aginst th´ law to eat, It´s aginst th´ law to drink
It´s aginst th´ law to worry, It´s aginst th´ law to think
It´s aginst th´ law to marry or to try to settle down
It´s aginst th´ law to ramble like a bum from town to town

Ever´thing’s aginst th´ law
I´m a low pay daddy singing th´ high price blues

It´s aginst th´ law to come, It´s against th´ law to go
It´s against th´ law to ride, It´s against th´ law to roll
It´s aginst th´ law to hug, It´s against th´ law to kiss
It´s against th´ law to shoot, It´s against th´ law to miss

Ever´thing’s aginst th´ law
I´m a low pay daddy singing th´ high price blues

It´s aginst th´ law to gamble, It´s aginst th´ law to roam
It´s aginst th´ law to organize or try to build a home
It´s aginst th´ law to sing, It´s aginst th´ law to dance
It´s aginst th´ law to tell you th´ trouble on my hands

Ever’thing in Winston Salem WA is aginst th’ law
I’ma low pay daddy singin’ th’ high price blues.

Words by Woody Guthrie
Edited by Matt45
Music by Billy Bragg
Words © Copyright 2000 by Woody Guthrie Publications, Inc
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 10:39:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Not that you've intermingled reality to Strat's fantasy......Exactly where do you fall into all of this Strat?

Will you follow the Governer's orders, to the letter?

Will you perform your duties without pushing your own agenda?

If so ordered, will you fire into a crowd that is looting and comitting arson?

Would you bar a person from entering an area that has been deemed "Unsafe" because of contamination or some other reason? Even if they owned property there?

Would you fire upon a crowd that is rioting and your "troops" were in danger of being seriously harmed? Even if it were at a food distribution point?

Would you fire tear gas into a crowd, and disperse them will physical force, if they are assembly unlawfully, in not in a peaceable manner?

Will you stand down once ordered to do so?



These are questions to be asked of an organized army more than those of an unorganized militia.
Kent State
Ruby Ridge
Waco
Are partial answers.

Whose actions were more seditious at Ruby Ridge? Randy Weaver's or Lon Horiuchi's?
Whom did the National Guard back up?

My concern is: When it's decided I'm seditious, who makes that desicion and who follows the orders?
Who protects me if the government decides I'm seditious and am not?
Our government is suppose to be of the people and for the people. Yet, it is not.
Fortunately we have a Constitution that protects people like Strat who may be outspoken in his disapointment with it.


Originally Posted By Matt45:
I will actively persue, and attempt to nuetralize anyone who means it harm.



That statement reminds me of a quote from "A Few Good Men"
"We were supposed to protect Santiago"
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:27:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 11:33:05 PM EDT by Matt45]

Originally Posted By migradog:
<SNIP>

These are questions to be asked of an organized army more than those of an unorganized militia.In no way shape or form is it a question to pose to the members of National Guard, and Reserves. We have regulations and rules to follow. We train our soldiers to think about their actions and how to interpret their orders. That's a lesson we all started learning not long after 2Lt Calley said "Roger, Out"
Kent State
Ruby Ridge
Waco
Are partial answers. Bullshit answers, with your selective examples .....you quickly forget the rioting in LA, Watt's in the 60's, Race riots in the South, The Nixon Riots, rioting in WA DC in the 60's, ALL of the Firestorms, Floods, Hurricanes, Earthquakes, and disasters, both natural or man-made that the Nat'l Guard has assisted in.

Whose actions were more seditious at Ruby Ridge? Randy Weaver's or Lon Horiuchi's? Sedition was never a factor in Lon Hopriuchi's case, Weaver's views however, are to be suspect, but not what landed him in the mess that gained him the noteriety.
Whom did the National Guard back up?Exactly whom they were supposed to, Law Enforcement, and only as Service and Support. Remember, it was NOT the Nat'l Guard at Waco, it was AD Army, and the ATF?FBI was the ones driving the M-88.

My concern is: When it's decided I'm seditious, who makes that desicion and who follows the orders?Most likely, in the case of an overt act, the Federal Court.
Who protects me if the government decides I'm seditious and am not?If found to be seditious, you won't need much more protection than what you'll find inside a FEMA camp.
Our government is suppose to be of the people and for the people. Yet, it is not.
Fortunately we have a Constitution that protects people like Strat who may be outspoken in his disapointment with it.Yeah, Amen Remember the old saw- I have to protect your right to say it, I don't have to like what you say.


Originally Posted By Matt45:
I will actively persue, and attempt to nuetralize anyone who means it harm.



That statement reminds me of a quote from "A Few Good Men"
"We were supposed to protect Santiago"
Oops


Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:35:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 11:35:33 PM EDT by 161Infantry]
.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:42:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 11:43:09 PM EDT by 161Infantry]
Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
I don't think that's gonna work, you're missing a couple key points, but you know what they are. You just can't afford to embrace the whole picture,and you guys in the militia know the whole picture riiight, BS. you have to spray your graffiti around. You aren't asking the hard questions, you're working from a set of assumptions.

We have tried not to ridicule you, as soldiers, no one has disparaged your skills at arms. You have heaped scorn on us, as people and as veterans, and you continue to do so. We have our beliefs and you haven't changed them, just reinforced them. They won't change.ANd?

You feel you're too good to play with us and that's fine, we'll continue without you. We buy our own weapons and gear and prepare for the day which will never come.out of our own pockets. You collect a check and play with what we bought you, constantly reminding us how much better you are.well ya, we are grunts after all, we are better than everyone.
This is a forum for us AR fans and gun nuts,militants, insurgents and randy weaver wannabes. you may need your own professional forum. We're really not in your league. I like Stratiotes and I like to listen to what he says.Never said I dislike him, hes just alittle out-there for me. Let him speak. You're not saying anything I don't already know. Take your humiliation, scorn, accusations and threats and go play with the REAL soldiers.Waaahhh!, dude take a pill, get your feelings hurt?PTSD?

That or stop acting so damn arrogant.Why? This is not Iraq, and it's not the Guard. You're bullying your peers and if you don't think we're your peers,to be my peer you would still have to be in the military community, your a civvie now. well then, you're in the wrong place.[/Who made you God to decide who belongs and who doesnt, is the militia gonna decide hispanics dont belong when you take over and then do something to them?quote
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:44:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 4:49:28 AM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
I don't think that's gonna work, you're missing a couple key points, but you know what they are. You just can't afford to embrace the whole picture,and you guys in the militia know the whole picture riiight, BS. you have to spray your graffiti around. You aren't asking the hard questions, you're working from a set of assumptions.

We have tried not to ridicule you, as soldiers, no one has disparaged your skills at arms. You have heaped scorn on us, as people and as veterans, and you continue to do so. We have our beliefs and you haven't changed them, just reinforced them. They won't change.ANd?

You feel you're too good to play with us and that's fine, we'll continue without you. We buy our own weapons and gear and prepare for the day which will never come.out of our own pockets. You collect a check and play with what we bought you, constantly reminding us how much better you are.well ya, we are grunts after all, we are better than everyone.
This is a forum for us AR fans and gun nuts,militants, insurgents and randy weaver wannabes. you may need your own professional forum. We're really not in your league. I like Stratiotes and I like to listen to what he says.Never said I dislike him, hes just alittle out-there for me. Let him speak. You're not saying anything I don't already know. Take your humiliation, scorn, accusations and threats and go play with the REAL soldiers.Waaahhh!, dude take a pill, get your feelings hurt?PTSD?

That or stop acting so damn arrogant.Why? This is not Iraq, and it's not the Guard. You're bullying your peers and if you don't think we're your peers,to be my peer you would still have to be in the military community, your a civvie now. well then, you're in the wrong place.[/Who made you God to decide who belongs and who doesnt, is the militia gonna decide hispanics dont belong when you take over and then do something to them?quote



Go ahead, fuck this forum up anyway you want to, I'm done. This is supposed to be the Hometown forum. We're supposed to be friends. You come in here and start passing judgement on who is acceptable and who is not. Hey, it's all yours. I'm 54 and I have nothing to answer for. I'll be damned if I'm gonna watch you turn this into the Socialist Militia Website. I got better things to do than be judged by you.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:49:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 5:00:20 AM EDT by Cboyer]

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By Cboyer:
OK , I had asked a question in another thread. I'll ask again. If you were issued a illegal order and you knew clearly it was illegal . such as firing into crowd of people(shoot to kill). Demanding food, remember this is a peaceful demonstration. Things are bad and very tense and people on both sides are scared, and your boss Say's to open fire. Would you?

Here is the deal. You must answer with yes or no only. you cannot qualify your answer in anyway, ie they were looting or something to that affect. 161 INF. did answer but he qualified it with a with a statement.




Originally Posted By Cboyer:

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:

Originally Posted By Cboyer:

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:

Originally Posted By Boomer

So you are admittedly prepared to follow orders and kill fellow Americans regardless of the reason for the uprising? Is this Chairborne's new user name?



Lets see if people loot, murder, rape and burn buidlings in our cities, I have no problem killing my fellow man.. At no time did I say for any reason, if your breaking the law ie(new Orleans, LA riots) Then you will have to take your medicine. Now if your saying general uprising against an oppresive Government, that is a decision (whether we side with the government or the people) that those of us in uniform will have to make if it ever happens(God willing it wont).
I suppose Boomer we should simply let Anarchy reign in our cities and do nothing right?? Obviously talking to looters doesnt do any good, what would you do???



Wow. Kinda like Kent State. Wasn't that a Guard action?



And your solution?You people bitch when the military does something and you bitch when it does nothing. You will never be pleased with anything, because your blinded by your own self-interests. Some of you live a dream-land where one day you will RISE up and take over(or so you think). You will simply replace one form of repression with another, keep living in fantasyland. The militia has no supplies, transportation, Medicine or other necessary resources necessary to rebuild this country. Where would all that come from?? You would simply steal it, just like the government does.



Actually I was hoping to make this a segway into another question. What if you were ordered to open fire (shoot to kill) on a peaceful protest during some disaster. When the .gov couldn't or wouldn't supply food or medicine. Sorry, no wiggle room on this such as Well if they did something illegal. They are not. What would you do? Forget the militia for a moment.




Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
If they are peaceful, why would we need to fire? If ordered to do so by a superior officer, its an unlawful order and I would not follow it. If they are looting, burning etc, now thats another matter.




I refuse to answer your question as framed with the narrow response perameter, since any monolithic response I give can, (And most likely will), be mis-construed and twisted at a later time. Suffice it to say I have an obligation and am bound morally to refuse to execute an order I feel is illegal.

I will restate this however,-

You folks will just have to go to sleep each night wondering if my morale compass is strong to detect right from wrong.



Actually Matt. No one has to wonder. The line of questioning would have put that to rest once and for all.( when you are in a court Questioning is narrow in scope to show a point of law or behavior) When you refused ,you showed us all how it really is. After all this is only the INTERNET not the octagon. As of late you have been increasingly out of control and it has been easier for these people to bait you and piss you off ,and toy with you.

People do want to know what the moral compass of the Citizen soldier is and They want to know That they are professional and would do the right thing when put under that kind of strain. Zaping Hagi is one thing, fellow US citizen?

You guy's represent the citizen soldier on this board 24/7 and you are doing nothing to show your real bosses as in we the people. that you are up to the job. If that is representative of the type of citizen/soldier we have in this state. Then people would think were in trouble.



Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:30:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 5:30:18 AM EDT by OdT]
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