The Kel-Tec KSG 12-ga Bullpup Shotgun

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Kel-Tec KSG 12-ga Bullpup Shotgun (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 1/3/2011 10:24:28 AM EDT

The Kel-Tec KSG is a 12-ga pump-action bullpup shotgun. It features an 18.5” cylinder bore barrel with a 2.75” chamber and an overall length of 26”. It feeds and ejects from the port behind the pistol grip. As a pump-action shotgun, it is legal under all existing federal and state laws excepting NY’s large capacity ammunition feeding device law. The problem with this beast is it comes standard with a 14+1 capacity.

However, the magazine is actually two 7-round capacity tubes fixed to the shotgun, from which the shotgun can only feed from one at a time. It’s an either/or feeding system that is manually switched over by a control near the pistol grip. If set in the center position, upon manipulating the action, the shotgun will eject the round or expended hull from the chamber but not feed another.

The big questions I see with this shotgun are, with the set-up, is it equipped with one fixed 14-round magazine or two fixed 7-round magazines? Is it different from using a clamp
to tie together two 10-round post-ban detachable magazines for an AK or AR?

If the magazines need to be capped, will the capping need to be permanent or will simply placing removable blocks into the tubes to reduce capacity be acceptable, along the lines of DEC requirements that hunting arms with a standard capacity of greater than 4+1 must be blocked to that limit?

I think this thing would be fun to play with. Hypothetically speaking, if I had to block it, I would block one tube to 3 rounds and leave the other alone so I could run 7 buck in one tube and 3 slugs in the other. And I'd train with it until I was blue in the shoulder.

If nothing else this makes for an interesting conversation.

Posted: 1/3/2011 10:30:01 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1484/ksg4459web.jpg

The Kel-Tec KSG is a 12-ga pump-action bullpup shotgun. It features an 18.5” cylinder bore barrel with a 2.75” chamber and an overall length of 26”. It feeds and ejects from the port behind the pistol grip. As a pump-action shotgun, it is legal under all existing federal and state laws excepting NY’s large capacity ammunition feeding device law. The problem with this beast is it comes standard with a 14+1 capacity.

However, the magazine is actually two 7-round capacity tubes fixed to the shotgun, from which the shotgun can only feed from one at a time. It’s an either/or feeding system that is manually switched over by a control near the pistol grip. If set in the center position, upon manipulating the action, the shotgun will eject the round or expended hull from the chamber but not feed another.

The big questions I see with this shotgun are, with the set-up, is it equipped with one fixed 14-round magazine or two fixed 7-round magazines? Is it different from using a clamp
to tie together two 10-round post-ban detachable magazines for an AK or AR?

If the magazines need to be capped, will the capping need to be permanent or will simply placing removable blocks into the tubes to reduce capacity be acceptable, along the lines of DEC requirements that hunting arms with a standard capacity of greater than 4+1 must be blocked to that limit?

I think this thing would be fun to play with. Hypothetically speaking, if I had to block it, I would block one tube to 3 rounds and leave the other alone so I could run 7 buck in one tube and 3 slugs in the other. And I'd train with it until I was blue in the shoulder.

If nothing else this makes for an interesting conversation.

The only cap for DEC is on a semi auto, or if you are hunting waterfowl.

Manner of Taking
It is illegal to take or hunt wildlife:

while in or on a motor vehicle (except by the holder of a Non Ambulatory Hunter Permit).
with the aid of a vehicle's lights.
on or from any public road.
with any firearm equipped with a silencer.
with any firearm which continues to fire as long as the trigger is held back (an automatic firearm).
with a spear.
with a bow equipped with any mechanical device which is attached to the bow (other than the bowstring) for drawing, holding or releasing the bowstring, except for a hunter with a disability who is in possession of a Modified Archery Permit (compound bows are legal).
with a spear gun or crossbow except for a hunter with a disability who is in possession of a Modified Crossbow Permit.
with an arrow with an explosive head or shaft.
with any device designed or intended to deliver drugs to an animal.
with any semi-automatic firearm with a capacity to hold more than 6 rounds, EXCEPT the following semi-automatic firearms:
firearms using .22 or .17 caliber rimfire ammunition, or
firearms altered to reduce their capacity to no more than 6 shells at one time in the magazine and chamber combined, or
autoloading pistols with a barrel length of less than eight inches.

Posted: 1/3/2011 10:39:23 AM EDT

[#2]

It's really going to be question of whether they'll put this gun into production. I certainly hope so. There's a lot of really cool guns out there that are rare so they can't be found and/or afforded.

Posted: 1/3/2011 10:59:40 AM EDT

[#3]

Pending price, I think I want one of these.

Posted: 1/3/2011 11:03:27 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
It's really going to be question of whether they'll put this gun into production. I certainly hope so. There's a lot of really cool guns out there that are rare so they can't be found and/or afforded.

All the guns pictured are pre-production models, not prototypes. So, it's a pretty good bet these will eventually be on the market.

As far as my statement on DEC regs, the statement is still valid even though this is a pump gun. The point isn't whether pump shotguns are covered by DEC regs, but rather if the temporary method used to convert hunting arms to legal capacity could also be used to bring down the capacity of this monster and satisfy the AWB restrictions, especially considering the dual mag design.

ETA: It seems like a sticky situation only because of the twin, separate mag design.

Posted: 1/3/2011 11:15:40 AM EDT

[#5]

Since it is a dual magazine design wouldn't it be legal because neither magazine has a capacity of 10 +?

Posted: 1/3/2011 11:20:07 AM EDT

[#6]

Wow that is very cool, I have not been excited by shotgun before but I want that.

Posted: 1/3/2011 11:31:49 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Since it is a dual magazine design wouldn't it be legal because neither magazine has a capacity of 10 +?

Doesn't matter since it is a pump action.

Posted: 1/3/2011 11:57:37 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since it is a dual magazine design wouldn't it be legal because neither magazine has a capacity of 10 +?

Doesn't matter since it is a pump action.

It does matter. Magazines are regulated separately. Just because this particular pump shotgun cannot be an "assault weapon" per se, post-ban magazines must have a capacity of 10-rounds or less regardless of type. That includes integral, tubular magazines that feed anything other than .22LR exclusively.

The question, however, is whether the magazine format on this shotgun constitutes one 14-round mag or two 7-round mags according to NYS.

Posted: 1/3/2011 11:58:09 AM EDT

[#9]

23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt,
drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September
thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or
that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten
rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include
an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating
only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

Posted: 1/3/2011 12:00:23 PM EDT

[#10]

It does have two separate magazines of 7 rounds each which feed independently of each other...

just saying.....

Posted: 1/3/2011 12:09:54 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
It does have two separate magazines of 7 rounds each which feed independently of each other...

just saying.....

That's the way I'm leaning. But NY and I have been known to lean differently.

Either way, we'll never know and have to play it safe and restrict the shotgun to 10.

Posted: 1/3/2011 12:49:18 PM EDT

[#12]

I really don't think this is a close call on this one, though there are members closer to law enforcement who may disagree with me.

The LCAFD limitation is not a limitation on the capacity of a firearm. It's a limitation on the capacity of an individual device that feeds ammunition.

There are two different devices that each hold 7 rounds. They feed ammunition independently.

Posted: 1/3/2011 12:54:22 PM EDT

[#13]

My feel is that it would come down to a switch needing to be flicked to disable the 1st tube and to allow the 2nd tube to operate. 14 is an interesting # since NJ and possibly other states have a 15 round cap. But then what happens if you load up with Aguila minis.....

Posted: 1/3/2011 5:35:52 PM EDT

[#14]

Having a couple Eagle 10/22 magazines push-pinned together doesn't make it a 20 rounder. So long as it's not one continuously feeding magazine greater than ten rounds in capacity, I can't see where it's an issue.

Posted: 1/3/2011 5:38:33 PM EDT

[#15]

Better to grab up one just in case. I hope they go into full production on this instead of dicking around like they have with the RFB. I definitely want one of these as a HD/boat gun and range toy/newbie indoctrinator.

Posted: 1/3/2011 5:39:53 PM EDT

[#16]

Its cool looking for sure, but it also looks like it will beat the shit out of your shoulder

Posted: 1/3/2011 6:49:06 PM EDT

[#17]

First gun I've been excited about in a while.

Posted: 1/3/2011 6:50:54 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
My feel is that it would come down to a switch needing to be flicked to disable the 1st tube and to allow the 2nd tube to operate. 14 is an interesting # since NJ and possibly other states have a 15 round cap. But then what happens if you load up with Aguila minis.....

Another thread in GD which quoted from KTOG forum seems to suggest this is the case. A switch needs to be engaged to switch from one tube to the other

Posted: 1/3/2011 8:47:30 PM EDT

[#19]

I keep clicking, but I think the "buy it now" button is broken

Posted: 1/3/2011 9:26:06 PM EDT

[#20]

i want one....depending on the price of course. Hopefully they dont price it out of my range.

it should be GTG.

the independant tubes is like...a mag coupler for AR mags...think of it that way. Seperate feeding devices. Not a single, continuous magazine.

Posted: 1/4/2011 1:24:56 AM EDT

[#21]

Just another fucken toy to piss hard earned money on!!!

Got my CC in hand.

Posted: 1/4/2011 1:57:27 AM EDT

[#22]

I believe the street price is supposed to be around $500. Keltec is killing me with their bullpups. I got to fondle an RFB (in .308 goodness) at the last gun show and fell in lust instantly. Now this, I wonder if anyone is buying kidneys?

Posted: 1/4/2011 5:48:17 AM EDT

[#23]

Yeah, I've been looking for a new shotgun. :-)

Posted: 1/4/2011 6:14:55 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I believe the street price is supposed to be around $500. Keltec is killing me with their bullpups. I got to fondle an RFB (in .308 goodness) at the last gun show and fell in lust instantly. Now this, I wonder if anyone is buying kidneys?

500s a very fair price, I hope it is that much.

Posted: 1/4/2011 6:32:24 AM EDT

[#25]

I wonder how long before somebody loses some fingers?

Posted: 1/4/2011 9:16:44 AM EDT

[#26]

As long as its under $600 I'm definitely pickling one up. Considering you can get a Saiga for ~$500 it'd have to beat that for me to get one.

Edit: Does it come with MBUS or the flip ups in the OP? I've seen different pictures, some with MBUS and this one with these.

Posted: 1/4/2011 9:30:02 AM EDT

[#27]

Should be GTG in NY, as the magazines are independent and neither one holds more than 10 rounds. Regarding price, people were throwing around "1/2 what the RFB costs", so maybe $900 MSRP or so.

I do wonder why the Keltec bulpups have such tiny buttplates... recoil will feel much harder when it's concentrated on such a small area of your shoulder.

Posted: 1/4/2011 10:37:29 AM EDT

[#28]

Tag for when/if they hit stores in NY.

Posted: 1/4/2011 10:51:59 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Tag for when/if they hit stores in NY.

My dealer and his son are going to SHOT this year, so I'm going to ask them to visit Kel-Tec's booth and get as much info as possible. Maybe even see if they can place an order directly, but I think K-T only sells through distributors.

Quoted:
Edit: Does it come with MBUS or the flip ups in the OP?

I don't think so. K-T guns like the RFB come pretty bare-bones in cardboard boxes to reduce costs. You'll probably need to supply your own.

Posted: 1/4/2011 12:19:37 PM EDT

[#30]

Only thing I'm worried about is the LOP. I am vertically challenged and I like short LOPs on my guns.

Posted: 1/4/2011 1:17:58 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Only thing I'm worried about is the LOP. I am vertically challenged and I like short LOPs on my guns.

The LOP doesn't look too long, I would hope that they do offer different sized butt pads so that the LOP can be adjusted.

Posted: 1/4/2011 1:30:08 PM EDT

[#32]

I was looking at another forum and the LOP is listed at 13 inches, not too bad but I'd like an inch shorter. Don't think that's doable with OAL at 26.1 inches.

Posted: 1/5/2011 3:37:20 AM EDT

[#33]

I really like Kel-Tec firearms. I hope they make more of these than they did the RFB. The shotgun forum in the armory tab is going nuts over this thing.....but then so am I !!!

Posted: 1/5/2011 4:05:16 AM EDT

[#34]

per the Kel-Tec website yesterday

PREVIEW: Kel-Tec Shotgun (KSG)
01-04-2011
The time for secrecy is nearing its end. This SHOT Show, Kel-Tec will be revealing its next ground-breaking product: the KSG (Kel-Tec Shotgun).

The KSG is our first entry into the shotgun market. The size, shape and design are similar to the currently available Kel-Tec RFB rifle, but the KSG ejects downward, instead of forward. The KSG weighs 6.9lbs and is as compact as legally possible with a 26.1" overall length and an 18.5" cylinder bore barrel. Even with this compact size, the internal dual tube magazines hold an impressive 14 rounds of 12 gage 2-3/4" rounds (7 per tube). The simple and reliable pump action feeds from either the left or right tube. The feed side is manually selected by a lever located behind the trigger guard. The lever can be positioned in the center detent in order to easily clear the chamber without feeding another round from either magazine. A cross bolt style safety blocks the sear, and the pump release lever is located in front of the trigger guard.

The pump includes an under Picatinny rail for the mounting of a forward grip, or a light or laser. The included top Picatinny sight rail will accept many types of optics or iron sights. Forward and rear sling loops are built in, and a basic sling is included. The soft rubber butt pad helps to tame recoil.

MSRP has not been officially been set, but we are looking at the $800.00 range.

Posted: 1/5/2011 4:19:37 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
per the Kel-Tec website yesterday...

<snip>

MSRP has not been officially been set, but we are looking at the $800.00 range.

That's probably about right; I've seen MSRP estimates ranging from $500 to $1000.

Keep this in mind: the RFB's MSRP is $1880, while dealer price is ~$1180, roughly a 60% markup. So the same markup applied to the KSG means dealer price will be around $500.

Posted: 1/5/2011 5:46:04 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
per the Kel-Tec website yesterday...

<snip>

MSRP has not been officially been set, but we are looking at the $800.00 range.

That's probably about right; I've seen MSRP estimates ranging from $500 to $1000.

Keep this in mind: the RFB's MSRP is $1880, while dealer price is ~$1180, roughly a 60% markup. So the same markup applied to the KSG means dealer price will be around $500.

That is what I had heard as well. Group Buy????????

Posted: 1/5/2011 6:44:16 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
That is what I had heard as well. Group Buy????????

That would be awesome if we could convince K-T to do an ARF group buy for the first KSG's off the line.

We should ask GoatBoy or EdwardAvila to approch Kel-Tec with the idea at SHOT...

Posted: 1/5/2011 7:04:58 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That is what I had heard as well. Group Buy????????

That would be awesome if we could convince K-T to do an ARF group buy for the first KSG's off the line.

We should ask GoatBoy or EdwardAvila to approch Kel-Tec with the idea at SHOT...

This is the best fucking idea EVAR!

Posted: 1/5/2011 7:32:53 AM EDT

[#39]

I'm in

Posted: 1/5/2011 7:36:21 AM EDT

[#40]

I sent a PM to GoatBoy. We'll see what he says.

Posted: 1/5/2011 7:44:25 AM EDT

[#41]

Count daddy in.

Posted: 1/5/2011 7:55:26 AM EDT

[#42]

Me too.

Posted: 1/5/2011 8:53:03 AM EDT

[#43]

IFTGB (in for the group buy)

Posted: 1/5/2011 11:17:49 AM EDT

[#44]

I'll take one. Let's do thisssss.

Posted: 1/5/2011 12:24:34 PM EDT

[#45]

Problem is if this is anything like the RFB Keltec won't be able to produce enough to keep up with demand.

Posted: 1/5/2011 12:40:57 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Problem is if this is anything like the RFB Keltec won't be able to produce enough to keep up with demand.

They've had problems and probably still do but they're taking steps to increase production capacity on all their guns. From what I've read, they produce some 100,000 guns per year, mostly handguns, but they've since moved into a new facility with more CNC machines to ramp up the big guns like the RFB.

It used to be they operated with production runs, building one model at a time then switching to another model when they completed the run. But based on yearly production numbers, their usual production runs are pretty large in size.

RFB's are appearing in greater numbers and more often on gunbroker than they used to. Seems like K-T might be getting a handle on production at this point.

ETA: Besides, if they do an initial run of 1000 KSB's and an ARFcom group buy claims the first 50-100, then hypothetically we would see them fast enough.