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Posted: 4/16/2007 8:49:13 PM EDT
Allright boyos listen up. In response to the VTech shooting. Since the recent shootings in the schools around the US we have stepped up security and planning around our schools. But, it is always nice to have 3rd party opinions and recommendations from outside personel. I am a police officer in New Lisbon, Juneau County, Wisconsin. I offer the opportunity to Wisconsin ARFCOM member for a ride along to inspect the town, and a full walkthrough of our school for any input on our security messures that you can provide.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 9:09:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 9:32:32 PM EDT by XM15e2sGreenBay]
Hey, Grif

How are you doing ? How is the AR you got from me, still have the cool paint job you did on it...? My AR10 is now almost complete, the Camo dura coat job should be awesome. I'll have to drop you a line when it's done.

Yeah.. I couldn't belive that some one would be so sick as to kill so many unarmed people.. what a waste of innocent life.
Security at schools is so tough, since if your going to do it correctly, you need many armed security personel, metal detectors at all entry points & exit points need to be monitored, searching purses and back packs, doing pat downs...
it would almost be too expensive to do it right. minimun 2 -3 gaurds at each metal detector, VTech happened at a dorm building, so more Gaurds there. The thing I noticed while watching tv coverage of this shooting, was how long it actually took, before the SWAT team, actually got in there to start sweeping the floors & rooms, I do understand they need to do it carefully, but. its also got to happen fast with in the first 30 minutes, not after 2-3 hours, by then everyone is dead.. Las vegas, NV PD has a great training program as all the Metro officers are trained on clearing a school in this type of crisis...., Any assistance I might be able to provide as a non police officer, although I have done 4 years worth of private security in the past. Let me know.

Take care, Lets all say a prayer for the survivors & the families of the victims...
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:38:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By grifman23:
Allright boyos listen up. In response to the VTech shooting. Since the recent shootings in the schools around the US we have stepped up security and planning around our schools. But, it is always nice to have 3rd party opinions and recommendations from outside personel. I am a police officer in New Lisbon, Juneau County, Wisconsin. I offer the opportunity to Wisconsin ARFCOM member for a ride along to inspect the town, and a full walkthrough of our school for any input on our security messures that you can provide.


I am glad someone is doing something about this.

My thoughts (I am not nor have ever been a .mil/LEO):


  • Metal detectors will do little or no good. If someone wants to run into a building and start capping people, what is to keep him/her from just shooting their way through the metal detector? would 2-3 officers be enough if they got surprised (meaning guy runs in and just starts blasting with no warning)?

  • Further training should be provided for existing school personnel on active shooter scenarios. Even if the police station is a block away, the SWAT team will not show up immediately, so whomever is already on scene could be very important.

  • Develop SOPs within the schools/colleges for active shooter scenarios, perhaps lock down all the doors in the buildings, have students take cover in designated safe areas that can be locked, something of that sort, until the cavalry arrives. Asking students to "hide" and hunker down is just waiting for them to get killed as the shooter walks around.

  • Support concealed carry in WI until it passes, and then do whatever is necessary to remove all limitations on carrying. Of course, this will happen right after hell has frozen over, but you would think even crazies/criminals would think twice if they knew they might get capped by some random citizen, regardless of where they are. GUN FREE ZONES DO NOT WORK FOR ANYONE.

Link Posted: 4/17/2007 4:52:54 AM EDT
Turning schools into super-max prisons is not the answer.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:15:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 1:09:39 PM EDT by Allerian]
Grif - I'll be glad to offer my background as a Facility Manager to you. A big part of FM is physical security. Since I do this for a living, I'd have to change your dept. for my time - but since we're all ARFCOM buds, I'd bring myself and another of our associates who is also security-oriented and only charge you for one guy, one half day. PM me if you're interested - we have references, etc.

That said, I beleive that our society has done everything possible to create a "killbox" environment at schools. The V Tech situation illustrated it perfectly. While the shooter did intend to lock the doors, we learned that the school is designed with a security system that can remotely lock all doors at once. This eliminates the opportunity for potential victims to flee, and forces those trapped with the shooter to fight or die. Kind of a "seal off all decks" mentality.

In my opinion, the focus needs to shift to the single and most obvious area that has not been addressed: Creating an opportunity for the victims to defend themselves. Schools ought to seriously consider making self-defense, specifically a hasty group self-defense plan part of the curriculum. Turn each classroom of kids into a team with a plan, rather than a locked-in sacrifice to the bad guy while we wait for the police to arrive.

-Robert
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 12:19:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 12:23:32 PM EDT by par0thead151]
conceal carry would have helped in the VT shooting situation.
the virginia tech administration members who shot down the Conceal carry on campus should be fired.
now for middle and highschools, i say allow teachers ot be armed if they so choose. train them with the police response and the likes. hell, even allow 18 year olds to have access to rifles that are stored away with only them having the key. this way it is only going to take the time ti sprint to the weapons location and then confront the threat. im sure that would beat police response time.
it is a shitty situation regardless of what is done to prepare, however barring those who exercise the tight to carry on school grounds is by far one of the dumbest things immagineable

edit:
i was damn near suspended from highschool when we practiced lock down drills. i made my opinion known by getting up and running for the nearest exit. i refused to sit like a rat in a cage waiting for the police or a shooter. atleast running i have a sporting chance to flee or attack. sitting in a classroom with nothing even remoteley close to a weapon is not a good plan. naturaly, my highschools administration did not agree with me on this(that was back in 2001)

Link Posted: 4/17/2007 1:00:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Turning schools into super-max prisons is not the answer.


+1
I feel that if a disturbed person is motivated these things will happen regardless of measures put in to place beforehand. By locking down the school you are only repressing the 99.999999% students that will never shoot up the school.

How many mass school shootings has New Lisbon had in the past 50 years? Is the number low because of rules and security measures that were already in place? What changed yesterday that is going to make that number go higher?

FWIW I work at a school and had the poop scared out of me yesterday.

-JTP
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 1:33:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JakeThePimp:

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Turning schools into super-max prisons is not the answer.


+1
I feel that if a disturbed person is motivated these things will happen regardless of measures put in to place beforehand. By locking down the school you are only repressing the 99.999999% students that will never shoot up the school.

How many mass school shootings has New Lisbon had in the past 50 years? Is the number low because of rules and security measures that were already in place? What changed yesterday that is going to make that number go higher?

FWIW I work at a school and had the poop scared out of me yesterday.

-JTP


a ultra secure school works both ways. look at the VT situation. if you fortify the rooms, that means entry and exit is more dificult, meaning you can be locked into a room with the shooter.
that is NOT a good idea
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 3:31:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2007 3:35:47 PM EDT by Frosty451]

Originally Posted By grifman23:
Allright boyos listen up. In response to the VTech shooting. Since the recent shootings in the schools around the US we have stepped up security and planning around our schools. But, it is always nice to have 3rd party opinions and recommendations from outside personel. I am a police officer in New Lisbon, Juneau County, Wisconsin. I offer the opportunity to Wisconsin ARFCOM member for a ride along to inspect the town, and a full walkthrough of our school for any input on our security messures that you can provide.


Having a self-confessed devious mind, I'd love to help but doubt I'd be able to make the drive... but have you considered running some mock drills with your personnel? IE Some type of "Blue team, red team" scenario?

Involve anyone you can think of - police, teachers, students, community volunteers.... Select a "red team" from a cross-section of backgrounds (people who know the area, and others who don't but "think outside the box" or have a fresh perspective), and task them with actually penetrating a "secure" area to expose its weaknesses, or plan a mock shooting and ask them how they'd maximize casualties (a macabre comment in light of yesterday's events, I apologize) ... I'm not suggesting a full blown community drill, but something involving just a handful of people acting as the unannounced red team, who nose around for a couple days, maybe try to access some "secure" areas, and report back with their findings. Were "no entry" doors actually locked? Did anyone challenge the unfamiliar face? Anyone ask for ID? etc.

For example, I remember last year 20/20 or 60 minutes did a piece on the "security" of University nuclear reactors across the nation. Several teams of young adults (~20 year olds) set out across the nation to see how many campus nuclear facilities they could access - and it was quite a few. These are supposedly "restricted" installations, requiring identification, etc etc... But teams of 2-3 "students" were frequently able to walk in, and ask "oh, can I just look around?" and get impromptu guided tours by geeks looking to impress a couple pretty girls. No cops, no checking of ID, no checking backpacks etc etc. ... Sometimes the teams could just walk in at 2am through the unlocked "Door must be locked!" door. Scary (The DOE had "no comment").
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 7:03:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2007 7:07:14 AM EDT by DrunkDucky]
You guys tend to believe that current lockdown procedures equate to just sitting in a corner as the bad guy executes students one by one...

The actual atmosphere would be utter chaos. Nobody is going to remain placid as their contemporaries are being shot systematically. I am sure that some people do attempt to rush the shooter, or protect their friends in some other way like acting as a human shield. Self preservation is a basic human instinct...

Fleeing is definitely not the answer. It would be hectic, people rushing a shooter in a confined hallway, a few get shot, others trip over them...huge mess. If you opt for fleeing away from the shooter, you get shot in the back, or if you make it outside where do you go then? It isn't a fire drill where a designated meeting place is possible. Any time you have lots of students running somewhere you also open up the possibility for the bad guy to employ explosives and make another Bath School Disaster.

What would make sense to me, would be to have well-trained faculty--familiar with disarming an armed assailant and other hand to hand fighting techniques (or CCW of course), and to continue with quick lockdown procedures. That way you are at least significantly reducing the distance to where a melee is a viable option.


ETA: It's a shame that the thread in GD about this got burried so damn fast...
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 1:20:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2007 1:22:06 PM EDT by glenn_r]
grifman,

Have you read the Secret Service's school safety information? Does your department have a school resource officer?

Aggressive prevention and intervention before an incident is key. Active shooter training is great, but people are already dead by the time LE gets rolling. It's relentless pre-shooting school intervention that can make a difference, IMO.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 1:29:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrunkDucky:
You guys tend to believe that current lockdown procedures equate to just sitting in a corner as the bad guy executes students one by one...

The actual atmosphere would be utter chaos. Nobody is going to remain placid as their contemporaries are being shot systematically. I am sure that some people do attempt to rush the shooter, or protect their friends in some other way like acting as a human shield. Self preservation is a basic human instinct...

Fleeing is definitely not the answer. It would be hectic, people rushing a shooter in a confined hallway, a few get shot, others trip over them...huge mess. If you opt for fleeing away from the shooter, you get shot in the back, or if you make it outside where do you go then? It isn't a fire drill where a designated meeting place is possible. Any time you have lots of students running somewhere you also open up the possibility for the bad guy to employ explosives and make another Bath School Disaster.

What would make sense to me, would be to have well-trained faculty--familiar with disarming an armed assailant and other hand to hand fighting techniques (or CCW of course), and to continue with quick lockdown procedures. That way you are at least significantly reducing the distance to where a melee is a viable option.


ETA: It's a shame that the thread in GD about this got burried so damn fast...


I agree, arming teachers and even students in a college setting is a good idea.
however the current lockdown procedure is not good at all. it provides the hsooter(s) a target rich environment where they know each class will be holding many students. look at VT, he came in with a lock, padlocked the door and murdered all but the entire classroom.
Untill they allow some sort of on campus presence to protect students, the lockdown procedure is going to always end in utter failure. unless of course they install super security doors that will keep the gunman out. but this leaves potential for explosives in each room...
imagine a claymore inside a class room
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 4:29:02 PM EDT
Their locks failed on the doors at VT. There was a remote access that didn't work with regards to locking individual classrooms. Some people were smart enough to barricade doors, others put their body in the way (causing the gunman to shoot through the doors). Had the university actually locked down the campus after the first shooting, or even if the locks worked properly the incident wouldn't have been as severe.

The girl that was interviewed with regards to something like 20/25 students in her German class being gunned down said that the shooter "peeked in the room" on more than one occassion before opening up. Had they barricaded the door with tables and chairs he wouldn't have been able to come back into the room. I also believe that the shooter padlocked the external doors, not individual classrooms...making fleeing difficult.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 6:06:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2007 8:35:30 PM EDT by DrunkDucky]
I'm bored...I think I'll turn my thoughts into a rant in GD.

Feel free to become part of the coming sh*tstorm. ETA: what a pathetic storm...that wasn't even a drizzle. Sorry all.



ETA: sorry for the mild hijack...great idea grif!
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 9:30:54 PM EDT
In school locked weapon vaults....
Arming teachers...

Well these ideas might work in a college...
Aint so sure its a good idea in High School or Jr High.
Teenybopper gang bangers now know where to go as
do other criminals to get there hands on weapons...

Here's a thought.

And I dont mean to slam L.E. here.
But this re-enforces the fact that they cant
get there fast enough.Room to room sweeps
eat up time.

These kids,This school....Just like evey kid...every school
all have one thing at their fingertips to be able to use
as an improvised body armor....Books.
Ever shoot into a phone book??
Stuff a few hardcover text books under your shirt...
Granted it wont stop a .44 mag...but it will stop
.22,'s and possibly 9mm.and wait for the reload...
to take the bad guy down.

It would be easier to take knowin my kid was killed
trying to save other lives then to learn he fell doing
nothing and was in a locked down room.

308PantherShooter


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 1:52:57 PM EDT
a book will not stop a 9mm...
well, i take that back, maybe one of those organic chemistry books!

improvised armor for children would not work well either. what is needed is for competent adults ot have access to a firearm to deal with any threat that the class may face. this means teachers in a elementary and highschool setting, and students and professors in a university setting.
just imagine what is going to hapen when johnny jihad starts working over our schools in the USA
we need to implement some sort of countermeasure or deterrent to this threat
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:41:10 PM EDT
what is needed is for competent adults....

Ok....You just removed M.P.S. {Milwaukee Public Schools)
from that list...

They cant control a dance or basketball game without the
help of Milwaukee Police.

This isnt our first school shooting....and it sure wont be the last.

The Powers that be are gonna have to take the threat of unstable
minded people a little more seriously...and hopefully remove them
before the person does damage.

The Sheriffs Dept at Columbine knew about the the 2 shooters there
a full yr ahead of time...and they got their hands tied from above.

This past tragical event...
A productions Professor had a videotape of the Shooter holding a gun to his
own head and ranting and brandishing the gun....This video was to be part of
a graded project.It disturbed the Professor so much it was turned over to
someone else....Where or who I can say I dont know.
One would like to think it was to a person that should have been able to
do more than write a prescription ....or detain for more than 72 hrs...

In both cases....Somebody knew the shooters were on the edge of a meltdown.
I am sure some by now...That some Federaly Funded Angencies have put
together a type of psych profile to screen with...and reduce the number of
violent occurances.And if it ends up labeling a certain kid with a mental illness....
So be it.

By having a teacher or instructor have access to a firearm just made that
teacher or instructor a primary target if the bad guy(s) has any familiarity to that
particular school.Class loads,Drugs in school,plus throw in the school boards policies....They do enough.

150-200 years ago we packed kids off to school with a gun to protect them
from wild critters and indians...
Today the only person in school with a gun should bea highly trained professional
member of the law enforcement community.Not a teacher or a student.

Teachers spend too much time opening young peoples minds.To retrain them to
take a human life...If Needed...and as the situation demanded would put teachers
on the biggest list in the want ads for employment.I think alot would quit if you gave them a gun to carry in school.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:02:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 8:06:54 PM EDT by glenn_r]

Originally Posted By 308PantherShooter:
Teachers spend too much time opening young peoples minds.To retrain them to
take a human life...If Needed...and as the situation demanded would put teachers
on the biggest list in the want ads for employment.I think alot would quit if you gave them a gun to carry in school.


My wife is a teacher. I taught middle school for 2 years. Although arming teachers might be attractive in a theoretical sense, I absolutely guarantee the idea will go nowhere. Many teachers would--and have--laid their lives on the line for their students. But most of them would not support this idea and many would fight it tooth-and-nail. Teachers didn't get into the profession to be gun-carriers. It's an alien idea to a lot of them. There are always isolated situations, personnel, or locations where arming them might be practical...but it's not a good general solution to the problem.

The effort this would require would be better spent providing training in recognizing and intercepting hazards before a shooting. After a shooting has started, lockdown is the best option in a field of bad options. Note the VA incident included four classrooms. I haven't yet heard why it wasn't confined to one.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 8:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By 308PantherShooter:
Teachers spend too much time opening young peoples minds.To retrain them to
take a human life...If Needed...and as the situation demanded would put teachers
on the biggest list in the want ads for employment.I think alot would quit if you gave them a gun to carry in school.


My wife is a teacher. I taught middle school for 2 years. Although arming teachers might be attractive in a theoretical sense, I absolutely guarantee the idea will go nowhere. Many teachers would--and have--laid their lives on the line for their students. But most of them would not support this idea and many would fight it tooth-and-nail. Teachers didn't get into the profession to be gun-carriers. It's an alien idea to a lot of them. There are always isolated situations, personnel, or locations where arming them might be practical...but it's not a good general solution to the problem.

The effort this would require would be better spent providing training in recognizing and intercepting hazards before a shooting. After a shooting has started, lockdown is the best option in a field of bad options. Note the VA incident included four classrooms. I haven't yet heard why it wasn't confined to one.


I'll agree that the majority of teachers wouldn't likely arm themselves against their students. It points out a fundamental flaw in their own teaching style if student relations have deteriorated to that point. However, I feel that it should at least be an option. It isn't like they would be forced to pack while teaching...and those that would want to should have to take extensive training to properly employ a firearm.

I wholeheartedly disagree with general weapons caches accessible by students. There has to be a certain degree of training associated with accessibility and proper use.

and a HUGE +1 on better efforts for prevention. Getting the student body involved would be great too...the more I talk about the issue with my contemporaries at school, the more I realize how uninformed they actually are. Apparently a lot of high schools never had them practice drills concerning the matter. One of the VT survivors mentioned something to MSNBC about how "no one was a hero" they just laid on the ground under their desks and got shot. So much for my thoughts about self-preservation...

Must have been that there was enough bomb threats/random hitlists turning up at my high school to cause a stir. In the late 90's our school system was plagued with threats of violence, and the faculty did their best to handle them and inform the student body accordingly. True, lockdowns probably aren't going to save everybody, but like you said (and most people here don't understand) lockdowns are the best option currently...but they aren't even practiced properly anymore. 95% of the people here don't understand exactly what a "lockdown" consists of even. Unfortunately it takes a reminder like VT to open peoples eyes.



Persistence of education is pivotal.
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