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Posted: 8/26/2005 7:30:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 9:27:17 PM EDT by CarbineMonoxide]
EDITED TO ADD: The main reason I put this together is for safety and logistics. I don't have any first-hand problems with party behavior. I do, however, see safety getting lax as more new faces show up and as veterans tend to go more for socializing.

-Most all the social comments come from trying to capture things I've seen posted by attendees and what I've seen asked about by potential newbies.

-Most of the safety comments are from what I've seen first hand or how we do things anyway.

-Most of the humor is recycled from movies.

-The rest is simply FAQ stuff that gets asked all the time.



Here we go!!!

This turned out like a combination of FAQ, advice and safety rules. Undoubtedly, there will be some disagreement, but I tried to capture consensus sprinkled with some common sense.

This is totally open to comments and debate and we can adjust it accordingly. I have no more authority than anyone else on this board....but if the Iraqis almost have a constitution already, we should be able to reach agreement without too much trouble!!


======================================================================
D R A F T


The Lewis County Regulars
Rules of Engagement


also known as
THE LCR CODE
(more like guidelines, actually)



MISSION
Have fun socializing
Have fun shooting
Learn/teach firearms info
Promote the sport
Promote freedom

THE BIG PICTURE
Current pit is about 180x70 yards flat gravel with good backstop. Plenty of room for parking and camping. No water, no bathrooms, minimal shade, but plenty of trees in area. No soft ground for camping. Campfire always running. You do not need to bring an AR-15 to show up. Guests, dogs, kids and LEOs welcome. Pit may change for future shoots.

Typical Saturday routine tends to be: 9:00 convoy from park and ride at exit 77. Shooting starts in earnest about 10:30. Most early shooting is newbies. Old-timers tend to pace themselves. Generally a cease-fire break for lunch. Resume shooting after lunch - -- good time for a Mad Minute. Shooting tends to be more on-and-off in later afternoon--a good time for experiments/clays/tactical drills. Cease fire break for dinner. More shooting. Night shooting for an hour or so after dark, followed by: poker, beer, humor, stories, lies, harassment of CavVet, obligatory insults of perpetual no-shows, complaints about France, sleep, rain, etc.

Friday night and Sunday routines are less structured.

SAFETY PRERAMBLE
This document is not an attempt to rewrite all the fundamentals of gun safety. This is just some selected rules applied to our situation. All the basics still apply.

If someone pimps you on safety: don’t fight it, don’t argue, don’t take it personally---just correct the mistake and learn from it. If you disagree, then comply first and debate later.

You are as much in charge of safety as anyone else is—speak up if you see something wrong. Be vigilant---the life you save may be mine!!

FIRING LINE
A marker or tarp will delineate the firing line. If line is not long enough, it is OK to extend to the sides. The goal is to keep all the muzzles in line at about 2 feet back from the front edge of the brass tarp. Be sure of backstop if shooting cross-pit from far end of line. Pistol targets are usually on one end of line.

WEAPONS HANDLING
An unloaded weapon consists of magazine out, action open, chamber empty.

Loaded weapons should only be:
• On the firing line pointed down range
• In a holster/belt pack/etc.
• In your vehicle (does not include leaning them against a vehicle)
• In your tent/trailer

When leaving firing line, safe the weapon: magazine out, action open, chamber empty. Carry long guns muzzle up and place in rifle rack. If no rack, place on tarp/ground with muzzle even with firing line pointed downrange. If there is an overflow, we’ll determine an alternate safe location/direction. Carry handguns muzzle down or holstered. Handguns can be set on front of tarp pointed downrange or in another designated area.

CEASE FIRE
Anyone can call cease-fire at any time. If there is a problem, call it like you mean it!! If it is just a cease-fire to reset targets, just ask the other shooters calmly if they want to go safe, let folks finish a magazine, etc., and after consensus….call it like you mean it!!

Other than carrying back to camp/vehicles, don’t handle weapons when people are down range.

RESTART (COMMENCE FIRE) AFTER A BREAK
Check for folks still downrange
Call for “Ears On” ” and give people time to get ready
Call for “anyone downrange”
Call “Range is Hot”

BUMP-FIRE
Due to lack of muzzle-control, give a heads-up before you bump-fire to allow the shooters either side of you to move away. If you are adjacent, either spread out 10-15 ft to the side of the bumper or safe your weapon and step back.

Use the tallest, closest backstop that is feasible. If backstop is 200 yards away, it probably doesn’t cover enough vertical angle. Depending on the pit setup, bump-fires may have to be restricted to a designated session/location.

NIGHT OPS
Night shooting is an integral part of the experience. Tracers, incendiaries, propane and propane accessories are encouraged. Wax fire-starters or flares are good for ignition sources.

No shooting after you have been drinking alcohol.

On Friday night, no shooting after midnight,

On Saturday night, no shooting after:
• 9:00 PM NOV-FEB
• 10:30 PM MAR-APR
• 12:00 PM MAY-AUG
• 10:30 PM SEP-OCT

Shooting hours are a compromise between:
• allowing time for dinner before the night shoot
• accommodating children and sleepers
• allowing at least 2 hours after dark
• starting soon enough to avoid temptation for post-alcohol shooting.

These shooting hours don’t apply to shots of the world’s finest tequila, but they probably should!

WEAPONS HANDLING AWAY FROM THE SHOOTING AREA
It is understood that troubleshooting, cleaning and show-and-tell will be taking place away from the shooting area. This is totally acceptable, just like it would be in a gun shop, but still keep ‘em unloaded and pointed in a safe direction.

EYE AND EAR PROTECTION
If you are stupid enough to shoot without ear protection, more power to you. If you are stupid enough to shoot without eye protection, you are putting the rest of us on the spot to have to administer first aid to you, or drive your car home, or have to wipe your vitreous humor off our hot barrels. We don’t want to do this. Therefore:

Eye protection =mandatory. Side protection/wraparound is recommended due to probability of muzzle brakes being used either side of you.
Hearing protection = strongly recommended. You can explain to RSCoyote if you have a problem with ear protection. He’ll be happy to listen to you. Hearing protection is also recommended anytime the Makers’ is empty and 1GunRunner starts repeating stories.

TARGETS
• RULE #1: If you are shooting at a “really cool” target, give everyone a heads up, so they don’t miss the show and can get cameras ready!
• RULE #2: We clean up everything we bring

Just because someone organizes a shoot date, it does not mean they are responsible for providing targets. Everyone needs to pitch in. There is not normally a traditional paper target frame. Ranges are usually longer than most people are used to plinking at, so keep in mind that the visual effect is lessened – a shook up can of Old Milwaukee Light may be fun at 20 yards, but it is near invisible at 100 yards..

Lists are not all inclusive:
• Good Targets – most anything reactive, Tannerite, ice bottles, water bottles, cheap beer/soda cans, bowling pins, 4x4 lumber, pumpkins, melons, steel targets, propane cylinders empty or full, clays, balloons, various hard plastic items, tennis balls, softballs, glowsticks, orange bullseye exploders, Dixie Chicks CDs
• Bad Targets – anything that is a pain to clean up, glass, electronics (unless it is playing rap music), paper bullseyes (unless you plan on quietly sighting something in), nasty chemicals, conservatives

AMMUNITION
• RULE #1 - It really sucks to run out!! Bring more than you think you need.
• RULE #2 – You can never bring too much ammunition

Reduced capacity magazines are discouraged, but tolerated.

Pit is not a fire hazard—steel core is OK. 50 caliber is OK.

It helps to bring a cardboard box or tray to hold your stuff whilst sitting around campfire loading mags. If you don’t have a LULA, ask to borrow one… then lend yours to someone next time ‘cause I guarantee you will buy one before next shoot!!

We follow the “one round per magazine rule.” We don’t care how many of that round are in the magazine, but don’t go loading, say, a .38spl and a 7.62x54 in the same magazine----that would be teh dumb!

BRASS
We pick up all brass and steel cases and shotgun wads. Bring a big tarp to catch brass if you have one—it makes life so much easier. .22 rimfire are a real pain to pick up—please keep these on the tarp. The brass all gets mixed and is generally available for the taking—feel free to pick through if you want to save some.

CLEAN UP
If you shoot, you pick up brass and targets. If you shoot a lot, you pick up a lot of brass and targets. If you eat or camp, you help clean campsite. Be willing to take a few bags of trash. If you are leaving early, call a cease fire for cleaning if you haven’t done your share. The Sunday crew has been stuck doing most of the work on several occasions—let’s not let this happen again. We leave the pit clean, except for the occasional 10-22 that gets left.

If there is a tarp, try to have your brass land on it. If there is not a tarp, consider bringing one next time.

ROADS
Access is on high quality gravel roads. You can make it with a normal auto. We don’t give directions on the web for OPSEC reasons.

It is easy to get lost on way out, especially in dark –get good directions before leaving solo. Contrary to what millions of TV viewers believe… everybody does not love Raymond!!

PARKING
If parking space will be an issue, someone will post about it ahead of time. If you don’t follow the simple instructions/requests of the parking-guru-of-the-day, such as “tell us now if you are bringing a trailer”, don’t expect any special accommodation (unless you are the one who got stuck driving Voilsb that day—then we’ll cut you some slack.)

NOISE ABATEMENT
Car alarms and Tannerite don’t mix. Please turn yours off. If you don’t have one, Bigscrun can probably get you a deal!!

CAMPSITE
Friday night crew gets to figure out the layout. Bring some padding if sleeping on the ground. Don’t count on it being easy to drive in stakes.

FOOD and DRINK
Food, drink and utensils are ‘bring your own’. If someone wants to bring treats or organize a BBQ—go for it.

VOMITING
Keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction…..please!!

VOLCANO SAFETY
We are pretty close to Mt Saint Helens. In case of ash-fall---switch to BUIS. In case of lava flow---duck and cover!

CAMERAS
Cameras are fine, but if you plan on posting pictures, make sure you know who doesn’t want their faces on the web.

ALTERNATE ENTERTAINMENT
There always seem to be a few quads showing up. Poker is pretty popular. Haven’t seen any guitars yet. Dogs are in. Charades are out.

MAJOR ITEMS WE NEED TO VERIFY/ASSIGN AHEAD OF TIME
Friday arriver to claim pit
Saturday escort from park and ride
Firewood
Campfire Grill
Large tarp(s) for brass
Rifle Rack
Overhead tarp for social area
No photos list
Overhead canopy or tarp for rifle rack

ITEMS THAT HOPEFULLY SHOW UP
Targets
Garbage bags/boxes/buckets for trash/brass
Tables for range or camp
Chairs
Water for dousing fire
More firewood
Extra Tarps for brass
Flag and flagpole
Additional canopies for rain/wind
First aid kits
Hors d’ouerves
Music
Rope/tape to mark firing line

Not everyone can bring firewood or bowling pins, but everyone can bring something.

DIVERSITY
We of the LCR celebrate diversity. We don’t discriminate based on action, brand, caliber, barrel length, stock color or national origin of manufacture. We tolerate Oregonians and Coast Guardsmen, but we don’t like to talk about it. We do sort of draw the line at the U.N.

PARTY BEHAVIOR
We aim to keep things clean and under control, but no one begrudges someone who has thousands of dollars invested in their hobby, who worked all week and drove hundreds of miles to be there from cutting loose a bit, having a few drinks and using a few bad words…but please save your partying “A-game” for weekends back home.

Party-types….be aware that there are children present. Use some discretion.
Parents…be aware that there are party-types present. Move your kids away if campfire behavior surpasses your threshold.

No written rules will prevent bad behavior or language. If someone gets out of control—set them straight.

LEGAL ISSUES
No illegal drugs
No illegal firearms
No King County Election Officials
If you are a gun-thieving-gang-banger, you are in the wrong forum—go to Oregon Hometown!!


BE SAFE - HAVE FUN - PLEASE COME AGAIN

REMEMBER THE CODE!!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:44:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 7:54:01 PM EDT by CavVet]



I had no idea something so fun could become such a royal pita. I had no clue we would end up with section and chapter and verse LCR 32.001 regulations. There are a few things in there that flat made me

If this is the direction the group wants to go, so be it. I think just like a few left England, there may end up being a new LCR, free from the hassle of dimocrat governmental mandates.


Just my nickles worth.




but if the Iraqis almost have a constitution already, we should be able to reach agreement without too much trouble!!



Maybe since Iraq is a country, they need laws. We are a group of adults having a weekend social event. Due to the nature of those attending, normally all activities are very above board and very kosher.




Depending on the pit setup, bump-fires may have to be restricted to a designated session/location.


Why dont we have it at Kenmore so we can at least load one shoot one???




On Friday night, no shooting after midnight,







On Saturday night, no shooting after:
• 9:00 PM NOV-FEB
• 10:30 PM MAR-APR
• 12:00 PM MAY-AUG
• 10:30 PM SEP-OCT

Shooting hours are a compromise between:
• allowing time for dinner before the night shoot
• accommodating children and sleepers
• allowing at least 2 hours after dark
• starting soon enough to avoid temptation for post-alcohol shooting.







Eye protection =mandatory. Side protection/wraparound is recommended due to probability of muzzle brakes being used either side of you.


<sigh>



PARTY BEHAVIOR
We aim to keep things clean and under control, but no one begrudges someone who has thousands of dollars invested in their hobby, who worked all week and drove hundreds of miles to be there from cutting loose a bit, having a few drinks and using a few bad words…but please save your partying “A-game” for weekends back home.

Party-types….be aware that there are children present. Use some discretion.
Parents…be aware that there are party-types present. Move your kids away if campfire behavior surpasses your threshold.




Rules for the evening? Is there a dress code as well??

I think.blah. Whatever.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:47:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 7:50:39 PM EDT by Phil_in_Seattle]
Errrrrrrr I'll read it all later but instead of the


The Lewis County Regulars
Rules of Engagement

also known as
THE LCR CODE
(more like guidelines, actually)



Can we call it something more like the LCR just a reminder?


Otherwise, pretty good job and there is some funny stuff in there.

Except.....



You forgot

MORE COWBELL!


and throw something in about 2 or 3 mandatory ceasefires for brass cleanup on Saturday. Spending 10 minutes 2or3 times with 20+ people has to make Sunday alot easier
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:49:20 PM EDT
I know that I have never shown up to a LCR, but if you want to put that in stone...

Make Rules...


Some of it is funny, but I dont care to play.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:02:06 PM EDT
No offense to CM,

But the cat fights here on the forum and the rules of conduct are taking some of the fun outta the great loose feel I enjoyed around here just six months ago. Are we so far gone that we feel the need to lay down laws for sociable gatherings?

Cowboy action shooting has plenty of rules to build confidence shooting with strangers. But LCR isn't a competition sport. Well, the drinking was a little. Hate to see it go this route.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:41:45 PM EDT
SAFETY PRERAMBLE:
_________________________________

I won't be there, and I'm not being a prick, and the intention was good, BUT, HEY! ---

FUN is the operative word.
SAFETY is the key to having FUN.

Just have FUN. Be SAFE.
"Care" for each other, but don't cop yourself out of the fun factor.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:07:42 PM EDT
Looks good to me, except the eye and ear protection thing. If someone is stupid enough not to wear either, they get exactly what they deserve. I don't wear eye protection. I know if I lose an eye then it is no ones fault other than mine. But I wear ear protection religiously as my ears ring bad enough already



On Saturday night, no shooting after:
• 9:00 PM NOV-FEB
• 10:30 PM MAR-APR
• 12:00 PM MAY-AUG
• 10:30 PM SEP-OCT

Shooting hours are a compromise between:
• allowing time for dinner before the night shoot
• accommodating children and sleepers
• allowing at least 2 hours after dark
• starting soon enough to avoid temptation for post-alcohol shooting.



Sounds good to me.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:13:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 2:30:40 PM EDT by Gibby]
I want to thank CM for his time and effort. I would like to condense it down a bit.

Have fun, but keep it safe! If you don't help with clean-up you're teh ghey!





Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:50:57 PM EDT
CarbineMonoxide we know your intentions are good. You knew or know you will be getting a lot of flack for this post.
I like most of what you have to say. I think most of us here know gun-safety. But there are a few that don't & it's good for them to read it. I don't want to get shot and I know CavVet does not either. Can we say this is for S. Safety is every ones responsibility. If someone screws up and any of you catch them (even if its me) bring it to their attention on the spot.


Now you forgot something where's the cease fire times for lunch & dinner? For one I hate having almost no time to take the ear plugs out, and it would be nice to know before hand when it's cold that it's going hot again!!! Even if I'm the only one you tell I'd sure appreciate it. I'm deaf enough....

How about trying something new. What about having a good old fashioned pot luck on Saturday for lunch? I want to thank 1GR for the fajitas last time. If we all pitch in we all can have a killer lunch!!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:58:28 PM EDT
see edit in first post


CavVet---damn, you are letting me off easy!!!!



Originally Posted By CavVet:
[
Due to the nature of those attending, normally all activities are very above board and very kosher. .

I agree, because people are mostly already doing what is described. Lets keep it that way.




Depending on the pit setup, bump-fires may have to be restricted to a designated session/location.


This is just a fact. Pit is 3-sided and still being dug out. Backstops can change, so don't be disappointed if it happens. I have witnessed some bumps pretty close to missing the backstop.



On Friday night, no shooting after midnight,


we can easily make Friday night the free-fire zone. We'll see what people think.






Parents…be aware that there are party-types present. Move your kids away if campfire behavior surpasses your threshold.



This is as close as I could get to "People Drink--Shit Happens, "


Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

THE LCR CODE
(more like guidelines, actually)



Can we call it something more like the LCR just a reminder?



don't tell me you've never seen the Pirates movie!!!





MORE COWBELL!]



great idea. see section on steel targets!!


Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:03:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kooter:
Looks good to me, except the eye and ear protection thing.




Easy enough to change...but how often does one get to use "vitreous humor" in a sentence!!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:05:18 PM EDT
Most of these sound like common sense to me, I've been guilty of breaking some of those like forgetting to free the mag when walking away from the firing line. I was called on it and I try to pay close attention now to my handling habits.

All in all it sounds like a pretty good reminder to me that this is a sport with serious consequences when things don't go as planned. None of us want to see that happen, I know we are all adults but a little forethought can go a long way to making the LCR a good time and not a trajedy.

A note on the safety glasses; I am 36 and never wore the things until last year when I lodged a piece of steel in my eye and had to have the Doctor root around in there. My eye hurt for a couple weeks. I guess I'd much rather accept the inconvenience of glasses over the two weeks of blinking agony I went through.

Personally I am much more comfortable with the amount of people that the LCR brings in with some ground rules. The only time I have personally felt uncomfortable is when there are more than one person bumping and the firing line starts to become eraticly staggered. That's just me though. I won't even be able to attend this event unfortunately because I'll be spending the companies money on strippers, steaks, and frosty beverages furthering my ejumacatian at a geek love in.

Shit it seems like the more of these I go to the less I actually shoot. Pretty soon I'll be happy to hang out around the camp fire and BS and lucky to get a mag down range.

I must not be buying enough guns.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:15:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spyda:
No offense to CM,.



trust me---none taken


But the cat fights here on the forum and the rules of conduct are taking some of the fun out ....


IMHO, the "you moved my post" catfights were mostly caused by differing expectations between mods and posters

I'm just trying to avoid same problems at shoots e.g. 'Sure, we're kid friendly, but we shoot til 3AM"
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:19:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
I know that I have never shown up to a LCR, but if you want to put that in stone...

Make Rules...





For the most part...there have always been rules, they just haven't been written down.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:22:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BusMaster007:


, BUT, HEY! ---

FUN is the operative word.
Just have FUN. Be SAFE.



see ..




MISSION
Have fun socializing
Have fun shooting


Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:25:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:



I had no idea something so fun could become such a royal pita. I had no clue we would end up with section and chapter and verse LCR 32.001 regulations. There are a few things in there that flat made me

If this is the direction the group wants to go, so be it. I think just like a few left England, there may end up being a new LCR, free from the hassle of dimocrat governmental mandates.


Just my nickles worth.



Wheres the sign up sheet for that shoot???
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:29:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gibby:
I want to thank CM for his time and effort.



Hey--the Sounder is good for something after all!





I would like to condense it down a bit.
Have fun, but keep it safe! If you don't help with clean-up you're teh ghey!




well put, Gibby.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:50:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RS_Coyote:
You knew or know you will be getting a lot of flack for this post.

I never imagined that would happen!!



I think most of us here know gun-safety. But there are a few that don't & it's good for them to read it. I don't want to get shot and I know CavVet does not either. Can we say this is for S. Safety is every ones responsibility. If someone screws up and any of you catch them (even if its me) bring it to their attention on the spot.



Thanks. All very true, but human nature being what it is, a lot of people are hesitant to speak up in a informal range environment--especially newbies who may assume everyone else is an expert. If you lay down some clear rules, it makes it easier on everyone.


Now you forgot something where's the cease fire times for lunch & dinner? For one I hate having almost no time to take the ear plugs out, ....



I can't see prescheduled times for lunch, but I think some earplug amnesty time would be welcome. Once things die down for lunch, someone could just agree on a duration. from what I have seen , most people do call for ears before they restart.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:58:32 PM EDT
I don't see the need for established rules. If we start setting rules, are we going to implement punishments also?

Common sense and experience will negate most potential problems.

I can see perhaps some simple guidelines, especially for newbies, such as the following:

1. Always be aware of your surroundings, and others near you.
2. If you're new or inexperienced, observing others before you begin shooting is probably a good idea.
3. If you're unsure about ANYTHING, ask.
4. Use COMMON SENSE.
5. Guns before alcohol, not after.
6. Eye and ear protection are recommended.
7. Be considerate to others.

I think these few suggestions would cover most circumstances that could arise.
Bear in mind we're all responsible adults, and for most of us, this is standard behavior.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:01:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bosifus:
, I know we are all adults but a little forethought can go a long way to making the LCR a good time and not a trajedy.

BINGO!!! Thank you.


A note on the safety glasses; I am 36 and never wore the things until last year when I lodged a piece of steel in my eye


You have probably just converted a non-believer!!

On further reflection though, I think Kooters libertarian approach on eyeballs is the way to go.

People need to be aware of the lateral blasts from muzzle brakes though--I was amazed when I first felt it. You don't experience it at a regular range with the dividers between stations.


Personally I am much more comfortable with the amount of people that the LCR brings in with some ground rules.
Yep. that's where I am coming from.


Shit it seems like the more of these I go to the less I actually shoot. Pretty soon I'll be happy to hang out around the camp fire and BS and lucky to get a mag down range.


this seems to be a common trend. I think it lead to some laxness recently.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:28:53 PM EDT
I'm going to bed. We'll see what awaits me tomorrow night.

I appreciate ALL the comments (even CavVet's!!). Trust me, I am not thin skinned about getting critiqued on this.

Those of you who are worried that "it has come to this", keep in mind that NOTHING HAS CHANGED!! Some bald guy just posted his opinions...and wrote up a checklist so we don't wind up with record attendance but no targets or campfire!!

What is now taking place is called "discussion" and "raising of awareness", which will determine if this leads to anything.

One thing that will help though..if you post a generic approval or disapproval, please specify if you are referring to social stuff or safety stuff.

Thanks,
CarbineO

P.S. If you find this topic totally sickening, at least remember one rule....


Originally Posted By CarbineMonoxide:

VOMITING
Keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction…..please!!


Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:07:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CarbineMonoxide:

Trust me, I am not thin skinned about getting critiqued on this.




Probably a good thing you didnt say that the first time.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:42:05 AM EDT
I didnt see anything in there about how many sheets of TP I could use if I have to go take a walk in the woods.

We have been doing this for sometime and I dont see the need for a list of "Rules". We have made some mistakes and we have corrected them. As odd as it may seem im with CavVet on this one.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:01:39 AM EDT
Just a couple of thoughts.

I understand and agree with where CavVet is coming from, I like the loose, somewhat anarchist feeling of the place.

At the same time, the "More like Guidelines" bit is appropriate too,, here's why.

The last LCR was my first LCR. I was just finishing breaking in my DSA, and came to the shoot because I knew that there would be folks there who know a LOT more about my rifle than I do, and was hoping to take advantage of the knowledge base to improve my own skills.

My problem was that I couldn't get my scope to settle down and let me start shooting for groups.

During the course of the afternoon, I FORGOT one of the safety rules.

It was during one of the ceasefires to reset targets.

People were downrange.

My rifle was mag out and slide locked back, but I was preoccupied with my erratic grouping, and I FORGOT one of the safety rules, walked up to my rifle and started fiddling around with my scope.

CavVet came over and corrected me. He was not a Nazi about it, but he did correct me.

A very sincere Thank You Sir, to CavVet.



so, I gues what it all comes down to, is that we can still be "Crazed and Heavily Armed Loonies" rather than "Dimocrat Gubmint Mandated Sheeple" , but some "More like Guidelines" may be a good thing.

,,, just my nickles worth too.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:57:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 8:39:58 AM EDT by bigscrun]
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:26:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:52:54 AM EDT
Common sense and a little courtesy has given us a perfect track record, with the exception of one experiment in propane canister ballistics. I don't see the need to change something that works perfectly. It's just something else to argue about and another reason not to attend.

If we wanted hard and fast rules, we could go to a range. I like the spontaneous nature of our events. I don't want to encourage people who demand a rigid, structured enviornment to show up to what is essentiallly a party with guns and ammo, away from the confines of civilization.

LCR might turn into a large event that will need some rules, one day, but I don't think we're there yet.

Don't give up on the document, but let's save it for the day when we have an event at a formal facility. Then somebody, besides me, can put up an insurance bond, set up dealer tables and a beer tent.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:05:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
I think the idea is good, for a public range. I don't like a few of the "rules" and don't see myself agreeing to a few more of them. If a majority of people that actually attend these shoots agree, then so be it. I will not attend. If I wanted this much control over a social internet gathering, we would organize it at Wades's or Sam's and have a gun range day.



Bigscrun,

Dude!! What made you change your mind since the last LCR shoot? Everything you said back then was spot on!!

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=15&t=202920



Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Ok with the upcoming LCR shoot I would like to point out a few things.........


Every shoot gets bigger and bigger, which is a great thing, but here are a few concerns I want to bring up before next weekend.


1. We have never had an AD or an ND at a shoot. With the large number of shooters and guns at the shoot, we need to be very strict on the firing line, hot/cold range, muzzle control, loaded/unloaded weapons.

2. More and more kids (12<) are coming with their parents, We need to be good role models when shooting. We also need to watch the commentary around the campfire when the kids are around.

3. Do not bring anything you don't want to be seen. Should be clear enough.

4. Absolutely no DRUGS. I will remove you personally. We don't need our whole group placed in danger because you think pot is socially acceptable. It is not at the LCR shoots.

5. We will have a range/safety meeting Saturday morning when the morning group arrives. CavVet, 1GR and others seem to make great range officers and will go over the basics.


Bottom line is we are going to have fun, we always do. We just need to make sure everything is safe and we will be all good. Hope to see everyone there............

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:12:42 AM EDT
CM....
I think you have printed some VERY GOOD INFORMATION (especially for those who have not been to a shoot, but are planning on it....like me!) I like the idea of "reminders" to all about kids, pets and the like to make sure nobody is hurt and that we are ALL WATCHING out for each other.
As with any event some of the rules are hardfast and non-negotiable (weapons safety, hours of shooting) but some of it should be flexible. Good job all in all!.....IMO
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:25:45 AM EDT
I'd rather have some posted guidelines than go to a shoot and fear for the safety of others because some jackass doesn't have a clue about weapons safety.

Good attempt CM. I think you are on track with at least providing people a nudge into a generally safe direction.

I didn't see any safety issues last LCR except for a loud bang from the fire pit...and I wasn't sure if it was a life round thrown in the pit or a rock splitting.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:08:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
I think the idea is good, for a public range. I don't like a few of the "rules" and don't see myself agreeing to a few more of them. If a majority of people that actually attend these shoots agree, then so be it. I will not attend. If I wanted this much control over a social internet gathering, we would organize it at Wades's or Sam's and have a gun range day.



All that is needed is common sense and to remain aware and everybody will have a good time...
Hell, LCR shoots are growing bigger every time
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:46:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:58:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
I think the idea is good, for a public range. I don't like a few of the "rules" and don't see myself agreeing to a few more of them. If a majority of people that actually attend these shoots agree, then so be it. I will not attend. If I wanted this much control over a social internet gathering, we would organize it at Wades's or Sam's and have a gun range day.



I didnt wanna put out an ultimatium, but I agree 110%.


Scrun, you, Belial and I can go to our own rule free shoot via IM.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 11:09:22 PM EDT
Which of the guidelines/rules do folks NOT like? It sounds to me like it just notes down the standard LCR practices...
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 7:32:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:

Yes I know, but once "set" rules are put in place, then you get "official" range ninjas, people get pissed and the shoots suffer. )



I would contend that once "set" rules are in place, people will know what is acceptable/standard, will be more comfortable, will not be wary of attending and the shoots will flourish!!!




Notice how my 5 guidelines got zero negative responses? )



Also notice how your post and the positive responses to it are what generated 90% of the "rules" in my post. By and large, these are not my ideas, people, I just collected what was out there. People should read your post and responses. It is great stuff.



I can remember you jumping on Erex's ass at GF for loading a mag behind the firing line because you THOUGHT it was a gun. Sorry I just don't think we need that much officaiting. NOTHING PERSONAL, )


This deserves clarification--this is unintentionally rather misleading ..

.. he was not loading a mag, he was loading an Automatic Magazine Loader--one of those 3 foot long black hinged-tray things for filling hi-cap mags. If you look at it quickly end-on, it is just a long black thing. So I turn around and see a long black thing pointed at my chest, with a hand putting a round right about where the action would be, and I am on a firing line with 20 guys with every imaginable weapon ...so in all of 1 second, my mind "sees" a loaded rifle being carelessly pointed at my chest. I yelled something to the effect of "don't do that back there! you are pointed right at me!!" Erex, who was doing nothing wrong, gave me quite the confused look, and rightly so. When he tilted it down and I got closer, I realized what it was. In between laughing at myself in embarrassment and sighing in relief, I explained to him why it looked like a barrel. His "ass was un-jumped" within about 10 seconds. I would also point out that whoever was behind me when I was facing Erex, also mentioned afterwards that it looked like a barrel to him, too.

So I ask, if one thinks a loaded gun is being pointed at them from 10 feet away, do you
a- try to get it "unpointed" at you, or
b-tell yourself ..."gee, I better not do anything cause people might think I am a range nazi and I just don't think we need that much officaiting"?

Link Posted: 8/28/2005 7:38:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 9:35:47 AM EDT by Phil_in_Seattle]
.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 7:53:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 8:11:26 AM EDT by CarbineMonoxide]
Thanks Lord_Grey.



To which I might add......


Concerning the proposed LCR ex-patriate shoot....

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=15&t=202920


Originally Posted By CavVet:

I will add one more thing thats been in my head.

Children should have a bedtime. If that means you need to go to bed as well, so be it. Its not fair to expect everyone to be as self composed later in the night. I seemed to go to bed before grownup hour got in full swing last time, which brings up one more point.

Those of you at grownup hour need to insure correct activities are pursued. Drinking and guns or driving strike me as a bad idea, and peer pressure should be used to insure such. ..



To which I say........



Originally Posted By CavVet:






<sigh>



Rules for the evening? Is there a dress code as well??

I think.blah. Whatever.





Wait a minute, I didn't say those things!! It must have been somebody else


Why do I feel like Ann Coulter all of a sudden?
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:09:38 AM EDT
A couple folks mention things like enjoying a loose, informal, spontaneous range...


I contend that you get a loose, informal, spontaneous range....by skipping things such as:

guy in tower with binoculars (English Pit-Vancouver)
orange flags when people down range (Renton)
one round per mag (Kenmore, various)
rangemaster designated to check every chamber before giving the all clear (GHarbor)
loudspeakers and flashing lights (various)
assigned lanes (all)
coordinated cease/commence times (most all outdoor facilities)

WHICH WE DO SKIP!!!!!!!

You do not achieve it by ignoring fundamentals like muzzle control and backstop. Only when you keep and emphasize the fundamentals can you get away with skipping the back-up controls listed above.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:42:14 AM EDT
CM, ya did alot of work there, and for the most part, I agree with what you posted. HOWEVER, I understand why some (including myself) are a bit put off by it. We are used to the LCR shoots being a large version of "Going shooting with your buddies". Where you and your pals load up the truck, head down to the pit, blast away, use common sense, and nobody gets hurt. A posted set of rules FEELS like the whole thing is going to turn into an organized range with an insurance bond and everybody is afraid that they may get jumped on at any moment for something that might LOOK like an infraction (or that they think is an infraction but is not). I've experienced that at many private rifle clubs and ranges. Again, good job on the outline, I don't quire agree with many of the "rules", but I understand your concern with making sure other people are familiar with the common sense included in some of your "rules".


ALSO!

­

<­BR>


............It's PCR
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:50:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 9:29:43 AM EDT
Add a poll. Simple yes or no answer, no "funny answer" cause that is the one everyone will pick. Do you want guidelines for the LCR shoot, or not?
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 10:33:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 10:36:33 AM EDT by CavVet]


If you see no difference between..................


Originally Posted By CavVet:

I will add one more thing thats been in my head.

Children should have a bedtime. If that means you need to go to bed as well, so be it. Its not fair to expect everyone to be as self composed later in the night. I seemed to go to bed before grownup hour got in full swing last time, which brings up one more point.

Those of you at grownup hour need to insure correct activities are pursued. Drinking and guns or driving strike me as a bad idea, and peer pressure should be used to insure such. ..




And.........


Originally Posted By CarbineMonoxide:

The Lewis County Regulars
Rules of Engagement


also known as
THE LCR CODE


This document is not an attempt to rewrite all the fundamentals of gun safety. This is just some selected rules applied to our situation. All the basics still apply.

Depending on the pit setup, bump-fires may have to be restricted to a designated session/location.


On Friday night, no shooting after midnight,

On Saturday night, no shooting after:
• 9:00 PM NOV-FEB
• 10:30 PM MAR-APR
• 12:00 PM MAY-AUG
• 10:30 PM SEP-OCT


Eye protection =mandatory.


REMEMBER THE CODE!!




There are substantial differences between " in my head, should have" and "Code, rules, restricted, no, no, no, no, mandatory"


While I think Kooters idea of group concensus on anything major is a good thing, which has been done before, I think scrun and everyone else should hold off, let a thread be started where the actual attendees say yea or nay on rules introduction. Then people can decide either way whether or not rule introduction would encourage or discourage them from atending.


Link Posted: 8/28/2005 10:45:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
........ HOWEVER, I understand why some (including myself) are a bit put off by it. We are used to the LCR shoots being a large version of "Going shooting with your buddies". Where you and your pals load up the truck, head down to the pit, blast away, use common sense, and nobody gets hurt. A posted set of rules FEELS like the whole thing is going to turn into an organized range with an insurance bond and everybody is afraid that they may get jumped on at any moment .....



PCR--I think you have diagnosed the "put off" factor correctly.

I think a big part of it is a generic response to seeing the word "rules" and then a long list of stuff. In reality, there were relatively few rules in there....most of it is FAQ stuff. If I had presented it differently, it would have been less shocking..I'll explain in next post.




ALSO!
............It's PCR




Pit 2 is closed! Its LCR again!!

Link Posted: 8/28/2005 10:47:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 11:37:56 AM EDT by DDofWA]
I'll cast my lott with Cav and Scrun, if I wanted a rule book I would join the local range, about the same cost for me to drive to the LCR shoot at $2.75/gal and be 20 minutes insead of 2+ hours.

I'll try to write this without being too much of a dick, but that is one thing I am realy good at, not writing, but being a dick.

I didn't hear or see anyone post a need for written rules, the only thing I can remember is a MENTION of going over the 4 rules of firearm saftey at the shoot, and no one blinked an eye.

#1 Always point the muzzle in a safe direction
#2 Treat all guns as if they are loaded
#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target
#4 Know your target and what is beyond it.
They vary a little where you find them written but mostly have the same meanings.

This is not on private land, its is on public land, its tough to force your rules on someone using there own land, whether they are shooting, riding motor bikes or any other activity. Your opening yourself/the group up to a liability problem.

While I am in no way an anarchist, don't see a need to for any more rules than what have been dicussed before this thread, unless your are trying to intentionaly reduce the number of particiants of the shoots, if you are its working already.

A little common sense, while not so common, goes a long way.

I did not write this to start or engage in, nor will I participate in a pissing match, just stating my thoughts, refer to my second statement

DD
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 11:32:13 AM EDT
1. To illustrate my last point, let me break up my list into SOCIAL, SAFETY, FAQ and, since it sort of combines these 3 , a separate category for NIGHT OPS

Let me take them one at a time. First SOCIAL--this is a direct copy of all the SOCIAL related items (I repost this just for comparative purposes..no need to reread. Go to #2.
-------------------------------
SOCIAL

VOMITING
Keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction…..please!!

PARTY BEHAVIOR
We aim to keep things clean and under control, but no one begrudges someone who has thousands of dollars invested in their hobby, who worked all week and drove hundreds of miles to be there from cutting loose a bit, having a few drinks and using a few bad words…but please save your partying “A-game” for weekends back home.

Party-types….be aware that there are children present. Use some discretion.
Parents…be aware that there are party-types present. Move your kids away if campfire behavior surpasses your threshold.

No written rules will prevent bad behavior or language. If someone gets out of control—set them straight.

LEGAL ISSUES
No illegal drugs
No illegal firearms
No King County Election Officials
If you are a gun-thieving-gang-banger, you are in the wrong forum—go to Oregon Hometown!!

----------------------------

2. Now, if I delete the attempted humor, and condense some redundant/unclear text, there is not much left, and it is pretty much nothing more than an FAQ answer to questions/concerns I have seen asked numerous times....I have paraphrased actual answers to newbie questions..there are hundreds of ways to say it

now it reads ..

---------------------------
SOCIAL

VOMITING
Keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction…..please!!

PARTY BEHAVIOR
We aim to keep things clean and under control, but no one begrudges someone who has thousands of dollars invested in their hobby, who worked all week and drove hundreds of miles to be there from cutting loose a bit, having a few drinks getting drunk and using a few bad words…but please save your partying “A-game” for weekends back home.Use some discretion

Party-types….be aware that there are children present. .
Parents…be aware that there are party-types present. Move your kids away if campfire behavior surpasses your threshold.

No written rules will prevent bad behavior or language. If someone gets out of control—set them straight.

LEGAL ISSUES
No illegal drugs
No illegal firearms
No King County Election Officials
If you are a gun-thieving-gang-banger, you are in the wrong forum—go to Oregon Hometown!!
[/



3. The clean version then reads:

----------------------
PARTY BEHAVIOR
We aim to keep things clean and under control, but no one begrudges someone who has thousands of dollars invested in their hobby, who worked all week and drove hundreds of miles to be there from cutting loose a bit, getting drunk and using a few bad words…but please use some discretion

Party-types….be aware that there are children present. .
Parents…be aware that there are party-types present. Move your kids away if campfire behavior surpasses your threshold.

No written rules will prevent bad behavior or language. If someone gets out of control—set them straight.


LEGAL ISSUES
No illegal drugs
No illegal firearms
-----------------

4. You could make a pretty good argument that the behavior section is PERMISSIVE, not RESTRICTIVE!! It rules out nothing. I even went so far as to specify that NO WRITTEN RULES will work in this area.

Of the 2 actual rules in there, ironically, the first one was posted by the one person who says he will no longer attend because of rules. I hope that after I explain better, he will reconsider.

The 2nd one, IIRC, was brought up way back at Shoot #1 and has never been contested.



Hopefully, this eliminates social naziism as a concern.

Up next....NIGHT SHOOT
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 11:36:35 AM EDT
Just a quick pause to thank CavVet for being very specific.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:04:20 PM EDT
CM, good on ya for being safety conscious.

Idealy a compromise can be made between the "I want a free for all with no safety rules" crowd and the proponents of structured safety. At the least I would hope for a daily safety briefing with a refresher on the four rules. Uh oh, I said rules...

With the number of kids and newbies increasing, so does the chances of someone getting shot. Combine that with a free for all firing line and the odds get worse. While the odds are still very low, it's all about risk managment.

I hope everyone has an enjoyable and safe shoot!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:05:15 PM EDT
NIGHT OPS

Very simple..it comes down to 2 specific questions. I concede the point that these would, in fact, be rules if agreed on.

1. Do we allow/condone shooting after drinking?
2. Do we want a cutoff time for night shooting?



The 1st paragraph was FAQ, the last one was humor.

The second bullet list not restrictive, it is just the entering arguments for making a decision. This was included anticipating a debate....little did I know.

It is real easy to edit the times I wrote down.... I am not imposing them on anyone, but the issue needed to be raised....and the shoot vs. alcohol thing has been brought up several times...I didn't invent the issue.



For reference, here is the original NIGHT OPS section
-------------------------------
NIGHT OPS
Night shooting is an integral part of the experience. Tracers, incendiaries, propane and propane accessories are encouraged. Wax fire-starters or flares are good for ignition sources.

No shooting after you have been drinking alcohol.

On Friday night, no shooting after midnight,

On Saturday night, no shooting after:
• 9:00 PM NOV-FEB
• 10:30 PM MAR-APR
• 12:00 PM MAY-AUG
• 10:30 PM SEP-OCT

Shooting hours are a compromise between:
• allowing time for dinner before the night shoot
• accommodating children and sleepers
• allowing at least 2 hours after dark
• starting soon enough to avoid temptation for post-alcohol shooting.

These shooting hours don’t apply to shots of the world’s finest tequila, but they probably should!
------------------------------



So, the 2 specific rules are pretty much open for a consensus decision.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:31:36 PM EDT
Thanks HABU.

I am heading out.

I will rebut CavVets red ink comments and I will attempt to re-explain the safety section when I get back online. I will concede that it is the most "rule-related" section in the list, but I think when I break it down, it will be a lot less imposing than it looked initially.

Note that I have already conceded the eyeballs thing back on page 1. I also have some ideas to "soften the tone" and trim down some of the rules...damn, that word again.


I would like to assure you all that I am not pissed about being called on any of this. I opened the can of worms, so I feel obligated to take the heat. Keep comments coming. I will be disappointed, though, if I cause people to drop out over a proposal--I hope folks will hang in and see how it plays out.

Also, for those that don't know me, I was the one at SHOOT #1 who instigated the Mad Minute ...so, I would hope this destroys any images of me as a fun-Nazi. I guess safety-Nazi diagnosis remains to be seen

Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:51:30 PM EDT
#1 The Bottom Line: Rules or no rules, it's public property. Everybody is going to do what they damn well please. But I guess that does not mean we can't run you or them off.

#2 Explain how are "RULES of ENGAGEMENT" a liability?

#3 The shoots are getting too damn big. All it's going to take is someone getting shot and the authorities are going to post NO SHOOTING signs and start patrolling.

#4 I think you all need to stop promoting these shoots so it will slow the growth. See #3. Or we need two shoots: One for range nazis and newbies, and one for those of us that already know and practice gun safety and general common sense. This may help reduce the size of each shoot.

#5 If you must have "Rules of Engagement," I think it needs to be changed to "Safety Guidelines." We are not out there on an assault. My wife thinks using the name "Rules of Engagement" will look bad to outsiders. And I see it already looks bad to some of those in our group.

#6 Who is going to be responsible for enforcing these rules? In the past we have always worked together. If it's not broken or unsafe why try to fix it?

#7 Yes I'm on both sides of the fence. There are pros and cons to both.

#8 enough already!!!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 1:04:20 PM EDT
So far I've been to all of the LCR shoots this year. While there have been a few violations of the golden rules they were inadvertent and quicky realized by the person suffering brain fade, sometimes with the quick help of an observer.

These things will happen regardless of any rules in place. Regarding safety all anyone needs is a reminder of these golden rules.

Rules on social behavior have no place at LCR. If someone is being unsafe then have a talk with them. If noise is keeping you or the kids up then ask to keep it down a bit. If that isn't sufficient then LCR might not be your cup of tea.

I plan on doing some night ops and don't feel like watching the clock. I am, however, considerate of others and will take my activities to the upper pit if a lot of folks are bedded down for the night.

No offense intended but this goes too far. Will that stop me from attending? Hell no.
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