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Posted: 7/19/2010 11:36:49 AM EST
I wanted to find out what the legality is for a Traffic Stop being initiated from a Private Property.

I was stopped for speeding the other day. My question is are Officers allowed to be on somebody's Private Property to do those Stops. In this case he was parked in the Driveway of somebody's property (he was not on public Roads or some other public area).
Any how I was driving and I saw the Officers Car which was parked as mentioned on somebody's Property.
I did not think much about it until he than started to pull me over. I was a little puzzled the least to say. He was very nice older gentleman, I handed him my Papers and he wrote me a ticket.
The other thing that puzzled me was while he hands me the ticket he tells me that I am able to turn this into a non moving violation to keep this off my driving record and thus this will not be reported to my Insurance.
I had never heard of this and never have I had this offered to me before. He told me to call the Court which I just did and the lady told me that I have to show up to court date listed on my Ticket and the Prosecutor will than decide to do this?
What is the deal with this. What would happen if I go to Court and ask the Prosecutor to have this turned into a non moving violation? The only thing I can think off is that this will be more expensive than the ticket it self. I have not had a speeding ticket in 8 years and thus I am not to concerned about the insurance going up. It was my fault and I am not arguing this point however I do find it somewhat unusually that a Stop would be initiated from a Drive Way of a Private Property.

This all took place in St. Francois County

Just looking to get some feedback and some recommendations on this from you guy's

thank you very much



Link Posted: 7/19/2010 11:46:51 AM EST
The offer was to have it "fixed". Basically it can be turned into a non-moving violation at the courts discretion for a little extra $$$ in the courts pocket. It is much easier to pay about $50 for a lawyer to take care of it, and it can be done with a phone call in most cases using a lawyer from my experiences. After the lawyer does his thing you can expect a fine somewhere near double what it would have been to pay it outright but in the long run it can be much cheaper due to insurance rates going up.

I had a speeding ticket in Foristell changed from a 55 in a 45 to a parked illegally on Teddy St......I have never actually parked on Teddy Street.

As far as the personal property I can not answer that question. I do have a buddy that has asked officers to leave his property though when they were using radar, they had no argument and left.

Link Posted: 7/19/2010 12:44:40 PM EST
Your traffic stop was initiated at the spot on a public road where you were when the officer observed you speeding and not on private property. The officer just happened to be parked on private property when he observed you speeding. The only question is did the officer have jurisdiction on the spot where you committed a crime.

In some areas of Missouri, one can hire an attorney who can have your fine doubled but have a speeding ticket changed to a non-moving violation. This can usually be done once a year in the same jurisdiction. The benefit of this is your insurance will not go up and no record on your driver's license (points). The Missouri Highway Patrol will not do this as well as a lot of local jurisdiction.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 12:49:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 12:54:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:35:19 PM EST
I can think of atleat 3 Driveways (all Private Property) where a Riverview Cop sits often and writes tickets for speeding and running the Stop sign...

I can not tell you if you tried to fight this in court or nit, what would happen... I'd rather call TLC and have them deal with it vs taking the chance... Sucks, I know...
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:50:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
I have heard LEOs use the "easement" argument in defense of them sitting on the edge of private property running a radar trap. My counter argument has always been "If the City considers that section to be their property, then they can damnwell mow the grass!" Double-standards are funny.

I wonder about the stop signs in the HyVee parking lot at at my place of work. I never heed them unless someone is obviously trying to walk there. My reasoning is that they are not "official" State signs since they are not of the correct "official" size.


So how does all this work on State Line Road? When a Missouri officer is in Kansas and you are speeding on the Missouri side of the road or a Kansas officer is in Missouri and you are speeding on the Kansas side of the road? There is only thing that matters; does the officer have jurisdiction where you are breaking the law. It has no baring on where the officer is when he witnesses you commit a crime.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:01:44 PM EST
Here's where your not thinking this through. He probably had permission to be sitting on said private property. There was a drug check "1/4 mile ahead" the other day. You know the one. They post the sign 200 feet before an exit so some paranoid or guilty person(s) will bail only to find he landed in the Eagle's claw. Last week it was at the 117 mile marker. Guess who's property they had permission to do that from ? A private land owner. My Dad. In fact you'll see Mustang units or Highway Patrol sitting in that private " No Tresspassing " drive a lot. Sometimes just doing paper work. Pay the fine and go on is my advice.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:10:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 4:12:49 PM EST by Fantomas]
thanks guy's for responding to my questions.

It was never my intention to get a Lawyer I made a mistake and thus I am taking responsibility. I was just wondering if it is okay for them to do this.

The ticket is only a few dollars thus not a big deal by the time I pay the Lawyer and than the Court Cost and all that other stuff I rather just pay it and get it over and done with. Not big deal
As long as my dogs are fine I have no problem supporting the Local Government


Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:24:35 PM EST
Look in your local free paper, or just wait and check your mail. The traffic lawyers download all traffic cases into program to print post cards. Last time I got a ticket, I had a dozen post cards within 2 weeks. For the St. Louis crowd, I use Horan Law Firm on Manchester @ McCausland. It's $40 a ticket. You just call, give him your credit card number, then scan or mail the ticket. They've fixed 15-20 tickets for me (all reduced, and some completed dismissed.)

Any of them will get back to you a few weeks after the court date with the judgement. Most of the time it will be a 20%-100% more expensive than the original fine, but it's a non moving violation. In downtown STL, I got a $100 speeding ticket, got it reduced to an "excessive vehicular noise" for $119 (+$40 for the lawyer). However, in Town & Country I got a $150 ticket than ended up being $300 after the non-moving violation reduction.

Get it fixed.....even if it isn't going to up your insurance NOW, what happens if you get another ticket(s) that you CANNOT get fixed?? Now you're talking big bucks for the next several years.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:24:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By Fantomas:
thanks guy's for responding to my questions.

It was never my intention to get a Lawyer I made a mistake and thus I am taking responsibility. I was just wondering if it is okay for them to do this.

The ticket is only a few dollars thus not a big deal by the time I pay the Lawyer and than the Court Cost and all that other stuff I rather just pay it and get it over and done with. Not big deal
As long as my dogs are fine I have no problem supporting the Local Government




Dang, sure does sound like someone trying to dodge a bullet if you start asking if that was legal what the cops did. My first and still my opiinion is that same dialog of a weekly show many years ago. "Dont do the crime if you cant do the time". So, dont speed if you cant pay the fine. You got caught, just that simple. There is no such thing as "Speed Trap" just speeders that are caught. I hate flocking 18 wheelers who weave and run 5 + MPH over the speed limit. And lets add cars who past using the slow lane (far right).
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:51:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 5:51:39 PM EST by delorean]
There certainly are speed traps

Charlack is one. They just put in speed cameras for the 400 ft of Interstate that runs through their town. Try to drive through that town––the speed limit changes about 15 times over the course of a 1/2 mile.

Currysville (west of Bowling Green) is the same way. Speed limit changes so many times it's hard to keep it straight.

Sure, you break the law if you're not paying attention. But it's not fair for them to make it so damn hard even if you are paying attention. And they shouldn't make an area an excessively SLOW zone when it has nothing to do with safety and ALL to do with revenue.

Example: Rock Hill. 30 MPH on McKnight past the dump. It's two lanes each direction with no intersections for close to a mile. No reason that couldn't be 45 MPH zone. Same goes Byrnes Mill on Hwy W––the residents fought that 55 MPH to 30MPH drop and got it up to 40 in one direction.

I also think it's crappy for them to sit shoot radar on a steep hill for the downhill traffic. They don't bother with the uphill traffic for some reason. Give the that ticket to Sir Isaac Newton.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:57:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 5:58:01 PM EST by 1911smith]
Originally Posted By Max-Paul:
Originally Posted By Fantomas:
thanks guy's for responding to my questions.

It was never my intention to get a Lawyer I made a mistake and thus I am taking responsibility. I was just wondering if it is okay for them to do this.

The ticket is only a few dollars thus not a big deal by the time I pay the Lawyer and than the Court Cost and all that other stuff I rather just pay it and get it over and done with. Not big deal
As long as my dogs are fine I have no problem supporting the Local Government




Dang, sure does sound like someone trying to dodge a bullet if you start asking if that was legal what the cops did. My first and still my opiinion is that same dialog of a weekly show many years ago. "Dont do the crime if you cant do the time". So, dont speed if you cant pay the fine. You got caught, just that simple. There is no such thing as "Speed Trap" just speeders that are caught. I hate flocking 18 wheelers who weave and run 5 + MPH over the speed limit. And lets add cars who past using the slow lane (far right).


It's 10 over, which meanns I'm trying to run 80 for all the cars and trucks in my way and if you see that big " Pete " grill in your rear view. Would you kindly quit hogging the hammer lane and yield right of way. Because chances are I'm ready to be home. That's the only time you catch me out there, otherwise I'm in the slow lane with a load of stock cussing you amateurs for driving like idiots.

Link Posted: 7/19/2010 6:53:44 PM EST
I've sat and run radar on private property...its not an issue in terms of legality of the stop. However, if the property owner doesn't want us on their property, they simply ask and we move.

As for stop signs and such on private property (like HyVee) they are not enforceable by the police. If I remember right from the academy the only traffic violations enforcable on private property are C&I and DWI...I don't do much of either so I can't remember for sure.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 7:13:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 7:15:09 PM EST by nturavrgcop]
I'm sleepy, and usually never comment on these but what the heck...

I guess everyone has their own interpretation of what a speed trap is but mine is where a speed limit suddenly drops and there's an officer waiting...

Charlack is one. They just put in speed cameras for the 400 ft of Interstate that runs through their town. Try to drive through that town––the speed limit changes about 15 times over the course of a 1/2 mile.


As much as I detest this agency, and agree they are on a money grab your information is incorrect. The speed limit on I-170 does not change, they just enforce the speed limit in their incredibly short area of jurisdiction. The camera in question (something most agencies in our area detest) is going to go active in this area. BS, but lets be honest about the area in question.

Regarding Rock Hill, The speed limit is the result of the City establishing it. Whether one thinks it should be faster or not, it's clearly signed as the 30 miles per hour. No sudden speed drops, no hiddent signs. Don't like the speed limit, ok but not a "trap". Its consistant all the way to 40/64.

As to the OP, we will position our vehicles on private property with the owner's permission.

I guess it varies from agency to agency




Link Posted: 7/19/2010 7:27:21 PM EST
Got nailed tonight... 35 in a 20...

No trap, it was my fault I'll admit, but I gotta say, that officer musta been hovering up above the street or something.... He fricken came outta no where... I checked all my mirrors, (Shoulda checked my Speed) nothing behnd me for several hundred feet, all of a sudden, BAM!!!!! He was so close I could not see his plates, I could only see the cherries and spotlight...



Since we're on the subject of LEs and tickets...

When one of you guys pulls us over, what are you doing back there??? Making popcorn??? It can't take that long to run my plates.... I got a home loan in less time...

The when he took my DL and Ins card, another 5-10 minutes???

I could under stand if I had wants, warrents or some other BS, but I'm all clean.........

NO offense intended, just currious...

Stay safe, I know not everyone you guys pull over is as reasonable or polite to you guys as I try to be (unless they are a jerk 1st)....
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 2:46:59 AM EST
The only time I sit in someones driveway to run radar is if the homeowner ask me to. I don't write speeding tickets until 15 over. I will stop for less than that but I am looking for other violations, revoked, no insurance, drunk etc. My chief frowns on tickets less than 15 over but he is elected and answers to voters and not the aldermen/mayor. I'm ok with that.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:24:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:51:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By nturavrgcop:

Charlack is one. They just put in speed cameras for the 400 ft of Interstate that runs through their town. Try to drive through that town––the speed limit changes about 15 times over the course of a 1/2 mile.


As much as I detest this agency, and agree they are on a money grab your information is incorrect. The speed limit on I-170 does not change, they just enforce the speed limit in their incredibly short area of jurisdiction. The camera in question (something most agencies in our area detest) is going to go active in this area. BS, but lets be honest about the area in question.


I meant the main 2-lane street that runs through the city of Charlack has all the speed limit and stop signs. You're right, the limit doesn't change out on the interstate. But it's still BS to say it's because of "safety" and they need to protect their whole 400 ft of interstate.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:56:40 AM EST
No offense to the LEOs that are trying to do their job and keep everyone safe, but its all about money...

If it wasn't, I could not hire a lawer, toss him 50.00, then him make a phone call and have my speeding (or whatever) ammeded to something trivial like loud exhaust that costs alot more....
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:15:52 AM EST
Honest question. If a nationwide announcement was made that traffic laws would no longer be enforced at all do you think the roads would be safer or more dangerous. I agree that getting moving violations reduce to non-moving is about money but that was started as a cash cow for lawyers. The courts then saw away to make a windfall off of it also.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:20:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2010 5:45:42 AM EST by smullen]

Originally Posted By scpd755:
Honest question. If a nationwide announcement was made that traffic laws would no longer be enforced at all do you think the roads would be safer or more dangerous. I agree that getting moving violations reduce to non-moving is about money but that was started as a cash cow for lawyers. The courts then saw away to make a windfall off of it also.


I think we are in agreement, just looking at it from different angles...

Everything you said, looks right too me... All just my opinion though..
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:20:58 AM EST
But it's still BS to say it's because of "safety" and they need to protect their whole 400 ft of interstate


On this, you and I are in total agreement.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 6:21:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By smullen:
Got nailed tonight... 35 in a 20...

No trap, it was my fault I'll admit, but I gotta say, that officer musta been hovering up above the street or something.... He fricken came outta no where... I checked all my mirrors, (Shoulda checked my Speed) nothing behnd me for several hundred feet, all of a sudden, BAM!!!!! He was so close I could not see his plates, I could only see the cherries and spotlight...



Since we're on the subject of LEs and tickets...

When one of you guys pulls us over, what are you doing back there??? Making popcorn??? It can't take that long to run my plates.... I got a home loan in less time...

The when he took my DL and Ins card, another 5-10 minutes???

I could under stand if I had wants, warrents or some other BS, but I'm all clean.........

NO offense intended, just currious...

Stay safe, I know not everyone you guys pull over is as reasonable or polite to you guys as I try to be (unless they are a jerk 1st)....


my stop took about to 30 minutes. After I gave him all the Papers no Idea what he did in his Car but it sure was a long time he was sitting in his Car. I have a clean record (well had one ) so I wonder what do they do for that long?
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:20:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Fantomas:
Originally Posted By smullen:
Got nailed tonight... 35 in a 20...

No trap, it was my fault I'll admit, but I gotta say, that officer musta been hovering up above the street or something.... He fricken came outta no where... I checked all my mirrors, (Shoulda checked my Speed) nothing behnd me for several hundred feet, all of a sudden, BAM!!!!! He was so close I could not see his plates, I could only see the cherries and spotlight...



Since we're on the subject of LEs and tickets...

When one of you guys pulls us over, what are you doing back there??? Making popcorn??? It can't take that long to run my plates.... I got a home loan in less time...

The when he took my DL and Ins card, another 5-10 minutes???

I could under stand if I had wants, warrents or some other BS, but I'm all clean.........

NO offense intended, just currious...

Stay safe, I know not everyone you guys pull over is as reasonable or polite to you guys as I try to be (unless they are a jerk 1st)....


my stop took about to 30 minutes. After I gave him all the Papers no Idea what he did in his Car but it sure was a long time he was sitting in his Car. I have a clean record (well had one ) so I wonder what do they do for that long?
Surf the net, F.B., check Arfcom for new posts, etc... Just to make us wonder... :)

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 2:39:06 PM EST
Fantomas, you might as well get the ticket fixed. It's cheap, easy, keeps your driving record clean, insurance down.

I've gotten enough stupid tickets to know this.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 2:39:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2010 2:41:22 PM EST by scpd755]


ETA:Cash50 slid in there on me. Oh well page two is mine!
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:03:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By cash50:
Fantomas, you might as well get the ticket fixed. It's cheap, easy, keeps your driving record clean, insurance down.

I've gotten enough stupid tickets to know this.


after thinking about it I will do that. I was referred to a guy in Farmington who does this. I will go see him tomorrow and see how this will work and what this will cost. So I will keep you posted.

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:52:02 PM EST
with my insurance company just one little blemish on your record and it's 3 years of higher rates.....getting it fixed is a good idea imo
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 6:13:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By smullen:

Originally Posted By Fantomas:
After I gave him all the Papers no Idea what he did in his Car but it sure was a long time he was sitting in his Car. I have a clean record (well had one ) so I wonder what do they do for that long?
Surf the net, F.B., check Arfcom for new posts, etc... Just to make us wonder... :)



LOL.....

I was pulling out of Lowe's in Ballwin the other day, and the cop next to me at the light was playing Soltaire on his laptop and talking on his cell phone. I was trying to get my wife to take a picture, but the light turned green before she could get it.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:11:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By delorean:
Originally Posted By smullen:

Originally Posted By Fantomas:
After I gave him all the Papers no Idea what he did in his Car but it sure was a long time he was sitting in his Car. I have a clean record (well had one ) so I wonder what do they do for that long?
Surf the net, F.B., check Arfcom for new posts, etc... Just to make us wonder... :)



LOL.....

I was pulling out of Lowe's in Ballwin the other day, and the cop next to me at the light was playing Soltaire on his laptop and talking on his cell phone. I was trying to get my wife to take a picture, but the light turned green before she could get it.


multitasking what an example
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