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Posted: 6/10/2009 5:14:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:22:21 PM EST
I can tell you what I was taught in the police academy back in '85. It may have changed, and Txinvestigator can correct me if I am wrong.
Signing the citation is just a promise to appear. If you refuse to sign you are violating the promise to appear. It is NOT an admission of guilt or innocence.
When I was a cop it was an arrestable offense, but very very few departments did so. I was taught as a rookie to just write "refused to sign" and let the judge deal with it.

Jim
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:35:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 5:38:49 PM EST by Sgt911]
Yes...I never do it, I just write refused and fill out an affidavit
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:37:48 PM EST
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

From the Texas Transportation Code:


Sec. 543.005. PROMISE TO APPEAR; RELEASE. To secure release, the person arrested must make a written promise to appear in court by signing the written notice prepared by the arresting officer. The signature may be obtained on a duplicate form or on an electronic device capable of creating a copy of the signed notice. The arresting officer shall retain the paper or electronic original of the notice and deliver the copy of the notice to the person arrested. The officer shall then promptly release the person from custody.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/tn.toc.htm
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:44:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

From the Texas Transportation Code:


Sec. 543.005. PROMISE TO APPEAR; RELEASE. To secure release, the person arrested must make a written promise to appear in court by signing the written notice prepared by the arresting officer. The signature may be obtained on a duplicate form or on an electronic device capable of creating a copy of the signed notice. The arresting officer shall retain the paper or electronic original of the notice and deliver the copy of the notice to the person arrested. The officer shall then promptly release the person from custody.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/tn.toc.htm


by the arresting officer


I think that says everything. You will be arrested in Orange County if you don't sign a promise to appear (ticket).
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:50:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:54:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:55:06 PM EST
It is up to the officer, unless their department has a policy stating otherwise. It is not a wise move. The vast majority of the time you will find yourself sitting in the holding cell of the local jail within 30 minutes of not signing. By not signing, you are indicating that you have no intent to honor the promise to appear at a later date.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:56:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 5:56:34 PM EST by Sgt911]
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By Sgt911:
Yes...I never do it, I just write refused and fill out an affidavit

Does this vary from dept to dept, i.e. is it usually at the discretion of the officer to not place non-signers under arrest and take them to jail?


It varies greatly...without seeing every depts in the states policy I cannot give a complete answer, just be aware you can be booked.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:17:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


You are not required to Mirandize unless you are going to question a suspect. During a traffic stop it's not an issue because you witnessed the offense and would not have to question the offender.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:18:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


A traffic stop is a limited form of arrest. You are not technically in custody but you are also not free to leave.
The Miranda warning is given when someone is questioned about a crime they are believed to have committed. I don't believe it is legally necessary just because of an arrest, although it is given- sometimes several times.
The decision to arrest or not arrest for not signing varies by jurisdiction. The dept. I worked in had a policy to not arrest. It wasn't my discretion. I had that "explained" to me by the Chief and my Sgt. when I was a rookie.

Jim
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:39:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:45:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 7:16:35 PM EST by txcop893]
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Wait







for









it
!
!
!
!

Not arrestable offenses.

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:46:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


What







for









it
!
!
!
!

Not arrestable offenses.




Why are we "what for it?"


Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:50:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:58:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


You are not required to Mirandize unless you are going to question a suspect.

"Do you know why I pulled you over? Do you know how fast you were going?"


That isn't really questioning to elicit info to incriminate you. The cop saw you commit the violation- since it's a misdemeaner he had to see it or he could not take action.
Those questions are more in the line of making conversation, not questioning.

Jim
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:00:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


You are not required to Mirandize unless you are going to question a suspect.

"Do you know why I pulled you over?


Speeding and.....

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:00:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


What







for









it
!
!
!
!

Not arrestable offenses.



You can if you have another violation
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:09:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:17:13 PM EST
JBT: Do you know why I pulled you over?

Me: Because I'm wanted in 5 countries for impersonating political figures?



Jim
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:17:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Wait






for









it
!
!
!
!

Not arrestable offenses.




Why are we "what for it?"




I dont know what your talking about....lol. Its been a really long day and my tiny brain hurts.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:28:53 PM EST
Damn it, you should have whated for it!
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:52:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By pepperbelly:

A traffic stop is a limited form of arrest. You are not technically in custody but you are also not free to leave.


*nom nom popcorn* Dat is fucked up.... *nom nom popcorn*
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:09:52 PM EST
I arrest for refusing to sign.

Signing is not an admiting guilt its merely promising to appear in court. If you are refusing to promise to appear in court then as an officer of the court I must make you do so. Which means you go before the judge now.

Remember, those lights come on, your basically "in custody" or "under arrest" and your signature is basically a PR BOND.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:12:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 8:13:24 PM EST by topgunpilot20]
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Not arrestable offenses.



But what if they refuse to sign the citation for speeding or open container?
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:13:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


You need to know, that if we see an offense, and we dont ask you any questions, with exception of basic personal info, we dont have to mirandize you. If I am not interrogating you of a crime you are accused of, then I dont need to mirandize you. I can accuse you of a traffic violation or any criminal offense that I see take place and arrest you for it with out interrogating you. Thus no need for miranda.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:16:27 PM EST
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:16:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Non arrestable offenses by themselves. But we can always find something else if we absolutly need it.

ME: Sir, is this still your address on your DL? No!?
ME: Have you been moved for more than 6 months?
Violator: No only 4 months
ME: Oh....well you had thirty days to update that from the time that you moved. thanks for the admission of guilt, and step out of the car.
Violator: DOH!
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:18:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Not arrestable offenses.



But what if they refuse to sign the citation for speeding or open container?



Then the offense they are arrested for is failure to promise to appear in court. I think thats how our complaint is titled. Its a seperate offense somewhere in there.

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:28:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...


That crotchety old bitch needed something...maybe not a taser...but something.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:46:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...


That crotchety old bitch needed something...maybe not a taser...but something.


SIIHPAPP?
Granny poonanny.

Jim
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:56:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Not arrestable offenses.



But what if they refuse to sign the citation for speeding or open container?



Then the offense they are arrested for is failure to promise to appear in court. I think thats how our complaint is titled. Its a seperate offense somewhere in there.



I already know the answer. I was just messing with txcop893.

Sec. 543.004. NOTICE TO APPEAR REQUIRED: CERTAIN OFFENSES. (a) An officer shall issue a written notice to appear if:

(1) the offense charged is speeding or a violation of the open container law, Section 49.03, Penal Code; and

(2) the person makes a written promise to appear in court as provided by Section 543.005.

(b) If the person is a resident of or is operating a vehicle licensed in a state or country other than this state, Subsection (a) applies only as provided by Chapter 703.

(c) The offenses specified by Subsection (a) are the only offenses for which issuance of a written notice to appear is mandatory.


An officer can arrest on the spot for any traffic violation except Speeding or Open Container. For those two offenses, the officer must give the driver an opportunity to sign the citation. However, if they refuse to sign the citation, then they can be still be arrested.

As for the question in the OP:

Sec. 543.002. PERSON ARRESTED TO BE TAKEN BEFORE MAGISTRATE. (a) A person arrested for a violation of this subtitle punishable as a misdemeanor shall be immediately taken before a magistrate if:

(1) the person is arrested on a charge of failure to stop in the event of an accident causing damage to property; or

(2) the person demands an immediate appearance before a magistrate or refuses to make a written promise to appear in court as provided by this subchapter.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 9:03:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 9:11:53 PM EST by jadams951]
In my 11+ years I've had numerous people say they aren't signing. But I tell em nicely, once, that their signature is not a plea of guilty and that if they refuse to sign they have to go to jail, have their car towed, and their kids in the car will go to CPS. For some reason, they almost always have kids in the car with them. I've never had em refuse to sign after saying that.

I see alot of officers that have never paid attention to the below section. Never seen anything become of it though so I might just be readin the TRC wrong.

Sec. 543.008. VIOLATION BY OFFICER.

A violation by an officer of a provision of Sections 543.003-543.007 is misconduct in office and the officer is subject to removal from the officer ’s
position.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 4:45:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2009 4:45:59 AM EST by Sgt911]
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...


Here is an interview with his Major..his support kinda waffles in the middle...The Deputy is the Tazer instructor
http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story/Harsh-words-exchanged-after-Grandma-tased/yCv2b8Ft-kWPIS7DZ6CAEg.cspx
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 5:09:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sgt911:
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...


Here is an interview with his Major..his support kinda waffles in the middle...The Deputy is the Tazer instructor
http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story/Harsh-words-exchanged-after-Grandma-tased/yCv2b8Ft-kWPIS7DZ6CAEg.cspx


I just think its funny that she said he flat out lied about what happened and as soon as she found out it was all on video she STFU.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 5:16:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...


That crotchety old bitch needed something...maybe not a taser...but something.


SIIHPAPP?
Granny poonanny.

Jim


How about SHATHASWAAAPP.
Smack Her About The Head And Shoulders With An Asp And Post Pics

j/k
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 5:40:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 6:00:07 AM EST
Our department usually instanter arrests for refusal to sign.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 6:25:19 AM EST
[highjack] What about refusing to give your SSN? [/highjack]
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 6:40:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Halffast:
[highjack] What about refusing to give your SSN? [/highjack]


We took that off our tickets about 7 years ago, I didnt ask for when it was on there. I'm not going to ask for something that I wouldnt give out.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 6:59:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?



You don't always get read Miranda when you get arrested. I promise.


Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:12:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?



You don't always get read Miranda when you get arrested. I promise.




You dont have to be read Miranda even when your arrested.

Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:27:47 AM EST
Why do they ask for your place of employment? I've had this done several times.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:34:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:48:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By mojo:
Originally Posted By 338winmag:
Why do they ask for your place of employment? I've had this done several times.


For you, probably the way you look.


I figured they might want to come by and use their policeman's discount
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:57:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


You are not required to Mirandize unless you are going to question a suspect. During a traffic stop it's not an issue because you witnessed the offense and would not have to question the offender.

"Do you know how fast you were going?"


Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:58:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
if you're 72 and in travis county, that's a tasering...

yahoo

not saying she didn't deserve it...


She got what she asked for. Stupid woman. Being a senior citizen doesn't give you the right to be obnoxious.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 8:58:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


You are not required to Mirandize unless you are going to question a suspect. During a traffic stop it's not an issue because you witnessed the offense and would not have to question the offender.

"Do you know how fast you were going?"




In the Academy we were taught to say " good morning/afternoon/evening, the reason I stopped you is ______________."
Never ask them if they know why you are stopping them.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:17:07 AM EST
Just an aside, you should Mirandize the instant the person you are dealing with becomes a suspect in a criminal investigation.

Sorry for the off topic jump
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:18:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:

Originally Posted By 62Bravo:
When you are stopped you are effectively under arrest at that point. your release is contingent upon your signature on the the notice to appear (ticket).

Interesting. If you're pulled over and are essentially under arrest at that point, why aren't you read your Miranda rights?


Because you are not under arrest. The Supreme Court ruled oin this eons ago.

All traffic offenses are arrestable. Texas law does require that a person who signs a promise to appear for Speeding or Open Container NOT be arrested. But if the person refuses to sign the person CAN be arrested for the traffic offense.


Some departments do not allow arrests when the person refuses to sign.

Texas Transportation Code
TITLE 7. VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC



SUBTITLE C. RULES OF THE ROAD



CHAPTER 543. ARREST AND PROSECUTION OF VIOLATORS



SUBCHAPTER A. ARREST AND CHARGING PROCEDURES; NOTICES AND PROMISES TO APPEAR



Sec. 543.001. ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT AUTHORIZED. Any peace officer may arrest without warrant a person found committing a violation of this subtitle.

Sec. 543.004. NOTICE TO APPEAR REQUIRED: CERTAIN OFFENSES. (a) An officer shall issue a written notice to appear if:

(1) the offense charged is speeding or a violation of the open container law, Section 49.03, Penal Code; and

(2) the person makes a written promise to appear in court as provided by Section 543.005.

(b) If the person is a resident of or is operating a vehicle licensed in a state or country other than this state, Subsection (a) applies only as provided by Chapter 703.

(c) The offenses specified by Subsection (a) are the only offenses for which issuance of a written notice to appear is mandatory.


Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:21:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Originally Posted By txcop893:
Originally Posted By AKJEFF:
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
Is not signing a traffic ticket in TX an arrestable offense? I'm trying to track down that info online but am not having any luck.


Check out the transportation code. Yes, it is. To make sure you have mastered your search fu I will give you something to find. What does speeding and an open container of alcohol have in common?


Not arrestable offenses.



But what if they refuse to sign the citation for speeding or open container?



Then the offense they are arrested for is failure to promise to appear in court. I think thats how our complaint is titled. Its a seperate offense somewhere in there.


No. You arrest them for the speeding or Open Container. There is no offense of failure to sign.



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