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Posted: 9/2/2004 6:55:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 8:33:39 AM EST by art15t]
I'm in the western upstate NY area (Rochester) and I have a (EDIT)pre-ban?, doh of course it's POST-BAN, mis-typed(/EDIT) HBAR 20" A2 AR-15, which I need to turn into cash :(

I know this isn't the right forum to advertise rifles for sale... this isn't that, this post is preliminary to me posting in that forum - I thought I should get some advice and information before I went ahead annoyed anyone there.

I have a 20" HBAR A2 rifle (Bushy lower, J&T upper) with muzzle brake I want to get rid of. It's an emergency sell on top of being a pretty vanilla rifle and pre-ban/used; it will have to go cheap, but I need the money to keep the vehicle on the road and a roof over my head; currently unemployed and job-searching.

I know there are some AR15.com crew guys local to the Rochester area - FYI that's where I am located. What I need is advice on how to sell my rifle, as I am still a newbie to all this, I bought my rifle last summer and have enjoyed it fully but I have only been into shooting less than a year.

Questions:

What is the skinny on selling rifles from private owner to private owner in NYS ... do I need to involve any agencies or do any paperwork?

Shipping rifles - If I find a buyer outside my area, is anything important to know about this?

Rochester-specific - any of you Rochester AR15.com guys have any recommendations or information on what shops or people in this area might buy guns and are reputable?


The worst part of this is that from what I have heard there is a local gun show coming up on the 25th, where I could certainly find someone who might be interested, but I have to be at a wedding that weekend :/

Thanks for reading, wish me luck...
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:25:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 7:28:02 AM EST by pickupdan]
Hi Art15t...

Selling to private individual in NY one can do face to face. One can legally ship to another private individual within the state... I am not familier with Rochester, and any local laws that may restrict this.... But some cities in NY have resticted ownership of AR's...

I prefer to sell to people I know or at the very least have a NY state pistol permit. But that is my preference...

Otherwise, shipping out of state is not a problem. Ask for a signed in ink copy of the FFL you will be shipping to. UPS is the best to ship by these days.

There is a show in Syracuse on the 18th and 19th if you wish to try to sell it there... You will have to go thru a FFL at the show. Being a state owned facilty they require it....

Feel free to email at oldedantucker@hotmail.com if you have any further questions....

Dan Tucker
UPstate NY
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 8:15:27 AM EST
Being Familar with Local and State laws I can tell you that you pickupdan is right by selling your AR15. You can post your gun in the swap sheet that is sent out thru out the rochester and syracuse area or post or on gunbroker.com plus there is a gun show in rochester sept 25/26 at the Dome & Minett Hall in henrettia and also the one at the NYS fair grounds Sept 18/19. There really arent any laws that would restrict you from selling your gun to anybody. The only real thing i can say is the one law that everyone should be aware of is that you can not sell a firearm to a known felony by doing so then you can get charged with a felony also. But its nothing to really worry about. By rights ever person that is selling a firearm is suppose to do a background check on the person buying the gun but I know alot of people dont have the cash that is required to do such.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 8:40:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 8:40:46 AM EST
2 Rochester area shops that you could place your rifle on consignment are Pro-Guns in Victor and Liberty Gun Shop just a few miles further east. They might also offer to buy your rifle, but expect a low-ball offer if you choose that route. If you price it right, it will probably sell quickly. Pro-Gun gets a lot of traffic and is quite black rifle friendly.

If you place the rifle in the EE, you can specify a FTF NY deal preferred.

Sorry you have to sell....
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 8:44:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 8:45:02 AM EST by SP10]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Please do not forget that if you sell at a gunshow the law says it must be done through an FFL who will require a 4473 be filled out along with a NICS check. You may not go out to the parking lot to do the deal, it MUST go through a dealer. Annoying yes, but its the law... and besides, it also covers your ass if the person is a stranger... and I can't express enough how important that is.



I believe this BS law is only valid on NYS property Hiram, such as at the Syracuse show/NYS Fairgrounds. Not applicable at Rochester, where many paperless private transactions still occur.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 9:02:45 AM EST
Thanks for all the info everyone, and it is indeed a sad thing to have to sell - but the upside is that this was just my first AR, and in retrospect I would be into owning a little different configuration than the one I did.

Pro-Gun, yes, I have of them but never stopped by, I'll get info on Liberty, because consignment sounds like a good plan.

I am glad to hear that I can sell face-to-face w/out hassle, as I think I have 2 or 3 shooters I know who might be into buying it ... one is an AK47 guy who's always coveted it but not been into spending the cash for one new and another is a friend who's mainly into pistol shooting that I think I could get into ARs if I gave him a deal! Hey at least I can create another AR fan in this process!
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 9:18:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 10:56:09 AM EST
Well then, it breaks my heart to see so many NY'ers not complying
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 11:19:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 11:20:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 11:20:43 AM EST by pickupdan]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Please do not forget that if you sell at a gunshow the law says it must be done through an FFL who will require a 4473 be filled out along with a NICS check. You may not go out to the parking lot to do the deal, it MUST go through a dealer. Annoying yes, but its the law... and besides, it also covers your ass if the person is a stranger... and I can't express enough how important that is.



I believe this BS law is only valid on NYS property Hiram, such as at the Syracuse show/NYS Fairgrounds. Not applicable at Rochester, where many paperless private transactions still occur.



Incorrect, the governor originally signed an Executive Order requiring it on state property... i.e. fairgrounds, the Egg in Albany... the state's AWB law expanded it to all gun shows in the state, whether on private or public property. Its just BCI has a far greater presence at the state facility shows. Still the law is as I stated.



Hiram?

What is the defintion of a gunshow then?

I was only aware of the deal with the Syracuse show was on state land... Every gunshow firearms transaction needs to go thru a NICS check????

Dan Tucker
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 11:49:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 11:57:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 2:12:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
OK... so who is covering the 1/4 billable hour on this search?







Nobody , but You get first Crack at the next 14 yr. old chickie that trolls the Board

Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:11:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
OK... so who is covering the 1/4 billable hour on this search?


ARTICLE 39-DD
SALE OF FIREARMS, RIFLES OR SHOTGUNS AT GUN SHOWS
Section 895. Definitions.
896. Operation of a gun show.
897. Sale of a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show.

S 895. Definitions. For the purposes of this article:
1. "Gun show" means an event sponsored, whether for profit or not, by
an individual, national, state or local organization, association or
other entity devoted to the collection, competitive use, sporting use,
or any other legal use of firearms, rifles or shotguns, or an event at
which (a) twenty percent or more of the total number of exhibitors are
firearm exhibitors or (b) ten or more firearm exhibitors are
participating or (c) a total of twenty-five or more pistols or revolvers
are offered for sale or transfer or (d) a total of fifty or more
firearms, rifles or shotguns are offered for sale or transfer. The term
gun show shall include any building, structure or facility where
firearms, rifles or shotguns are offered for sale or transfer and any
grounds used in connection with the event.
2. "Firearm exhibitor" means any person, firm, partnership,
corporation or company that exhibits, sells, offers for sale, transfers,
or exchanges firearms, rifles or shotguns at a gun show.
3. "Gun show operator" means any person, firm, partnership,
corporation or company that organizes, produces, sponsors or operates a
gun show.
4. "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(3), but shall not include an "antique firearm" as that term is
defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16).
5. "Rifle" has the same meaning as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(7).
6. "Shotgun" has the same meaning as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(5).

S 896. Operation of a gun show. 1. A gun show operator shall:
(a) at all times during such show conspicuously post and maintain
signs stating "A National Instant Criminal Background Check must be
completed prior to all firearm sales or transfers, including sales or
transfers of rifles or shotguns". Signs must be posted at all entrances
to the gun show, at all places where admission tickets to the gun show
are sold and not less than four additional locations within the grounds
of the gun show;
(b) notify all firearm exhibitors in writing that a national instant
criminal background check must be completed prior to all firearm sales
or transfers, including sales or transfers of rifles or shotguns; and
(c) provide access at the gun show to a firearm dealer licensed under
federal law who is authorized to perform a national instant criminal
background check where the seller or transferor of a firearm, rifle or
shotgun is not authorized to conduct such a check by (i) requiring
firearm exhibitors who are firearm dealers licensed under federal law
and who are authorized to conduct a national instant criminal background
check to provide such a check at cost or (ii) designating a specific
location at the gun show where a firearm dealer licensed under federal
law who is authorized to conduct a national instant criminal background
check will be present to perform such a check at cost. Any firearm
dealer licensed under federal law who performs a national instant
criminal background check pursuant to this paragraph shall provide the
seller or transferor of the firearm, rifle or shotgun with a copy of the
United States Department of Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms Form ATF F 4473 and such dealer shall maintain such form and
make such form available for inspection by law enforcement agencies for
a period of ten years thereafter.
2. Whenever the attorney general shall believe from evidence
satisfactory to him or her that a gun show operator has violated any of
the provisions of this section, the attorney general may bring an action
or special proceeding in the supreme court for a judgment enjoining the
continuance of such violation and for a civil penalty in an amount not
to exceed ten thousand dollars. If it shall appear to the satisfaction
of the court or justice that the defendant has violated any provisions
of this section, no proof shall be required that any person has been
injured thereby nor that the defendant intentionally violated such
provision. In such action preliminary relief may be granted under
article sixty-three of the civil practice law and rules. In connection
with any such proposed application, the attorney general is authorized
to take proof, issue subpoenas and administer oaths in the manner
provided in the civil practice law and rules.

S 897. Sale of a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show. 1. A
national instant criminal background check shall be conducted and no
person shall sell or transfer a firearm, rifle or shotgun at a gun show,
except in accordance with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
2. No person shall offer or agree to sell or transfer a firearm, rifle
or shotgun to another person at a gun show and transfer or deliver such
firearm, rifle or shotgun to such person or person acting on his or her
behalf thereafter at a location other than the gun show for the purpose
of evading or avoiding compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(t).
3. Any person who knowingly violates any of the provisions of this
section shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor punishable as provided
for in the penal law.




Will a beer a Tully's cover this?

THanks
Dan Tucker
UPstate NY
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:22:52 PM EST
Shit, I say we THROW a beer on the Albany lapdog


J/K...Thanx for all you do (keeping us informed of our Albany Lord's mandates). Hugs and kisses
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:03:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Please do not forget that if you sell at a gunshow the law says it must be done through an FFL who will require a 4473 be filled out along with a NICS check. You may not go out to the parking lot to do the deal, it MUST go through a dealer. Annoying yes, but its the law... and besides, it also covers your ass if the person is a stranger... and I can't express enough how important that is.



HR is correct about gun shows. In a private transfer you must also be in compliance with both NYS and Federal law which prohibits transferring a firearm to a prohibited person. The person you are transferring the firearm to must also be a resident of NYS. You would be wise to take HR's advice on having an FFL do the transfer if you have any doubts. It can come back to haunt you many years later.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:27:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:57:37 PM EST
Hehe, lots of good info in this thread... thanks bunches everyone. I have another question for you guys, if you'd be so kind.

Is it lawful for a private owner to sell a rifle to a resident of another state who currently resides in NY? A potential buyer for my rifle has 4 years residency here in NY, but he still keeps a Colorado drivers license. Is it verboten in general to sell individual rifles, over state lines?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:06:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:33:37 PM EST
To back up what Hiram says, at the Middletown Show if you want to bring a firearm into the show to sell FTF or to a dealer, you are required by the show promoters to leave your driver's license with them. They also take down the info on the firearm. If you find a seller, it must be sold through a dealer at the show along with a NICS check. Proof of compliance is required to get your driver's license back. There are plentiful warnings about parking lot deals and the NYSP are around in plainclothes. At the last show, a knife dealer was warned by uniformed NYSP that he was selling switchblades which are illegal in NYS. He was told to put then away. After they left, he put them out again. He was too stupid to realize that the plaincothes guys would show up later to make a buy. Sure enough he was arrested on the spot and all his inventory was confiscated.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:43:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:50:49 AM EST
As HR stated you can legally possess a switchblade knife in NYS while hunting, trapping or fishing and have the associated ENCON license. Don't expect the average NYS LEO to know this though. Some states which restrict auto opening knives also have an exemption if you only have one arm.


NYS Penal Law

ARTICLE 265
FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS


S 265.20 Exemptions.
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11,
265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:
1. Possession of any of the weapons, instruments, appliances or
substances specified in sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05
and 270.05 by the following:

.........................................

6. Possession of a switchblade or gravity knife for use while hunting,
trapping or fishing by a person carrying a valid license issued to him
pursuant to section 11-0713 of the environmental conservation law.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:05:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:14:17 AM EST
In any case, it was gun show fodder for the local rag.
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