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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/21/2005 10:04:04 AM EDT
Does anyone here have recent experience with obtaining a CLEO signature in Arlington County? I'm contemplating putting together an SBR.

Thanks
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 11:45:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2005 11:46:10 AM EDT by NovaHokie9]
I'm pretty sure NFA items in Arlington are a no-go, unless of course you incorporate. Arlington is one of the most blatantly anti-gun counties in the Commonwealth (thankfully those are few).
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 4:36:27 PM EDT
Move to Loudoun! I had no trouble getting a CLEO sign-off. For that matter, Fairfax or Prince William is OK too.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:25:44 PM EDT
I live in Arlington...the word is, don't bother...either incorporate, or move to a better county.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 6:34:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 11:26:07 AM EDT by larrycwdc]
E'er the quixotic one, I'd be willing to pursue this if there are three or more additional Arlington residents who are serious about wanting private ownership of an NFA weapon (or several). Serious, as in resolved to follow up an eventual rejection with a lawsuit.

(Many of you recall my concern that Arlington will tax corporate-owned NFA weapons, resulting in an exhorbitant annual bill. I know how they act with corporate assets, and it is not pretty.)

The idea would be to coordinate our Form 1 "Application to Make and Register a Firearm" submissions (for CLEO signoff) on simlar weapons (SBR seems to be the easiest first step), and then await the results. If we get the signoff, then the anecdotes about Arlington will need updating, and I'm sure we ARF.com'ers would be happy to express a different opinion about Arlington County.

Presuming, however, that no signoff is forthcoming, then we'd take the next step ... consulting, and then perhaps engaging the services of, an attorney. This step costs money, hence the idea in the first paragraph that describes at least four (or more) like-minded, serious applicants. (I volunteer to be the first one of these four.)

We'd have to engage the services of an attorney -- splitting the fees equally as the case proceeds -- and sue for what I believe to be an unlawful impediment to exercising what appears to be a constitutional right. The initial investment in legal fees would probably be on the order of $150 per person for an initial consultation and maybe a letter notifying the county of an intent to file suit. (Two or so hours of legal assistance and a letter would probably cost on the order of $600 or so, even if discounted, by a pro-2A attorney with the desired qualifications.)

The NRA, GOA, VCDL might be willing to contribute something to the case -- for the precedential value -- but if nothing else, I'd ask these organizations for recommendations about a knowledgeable attorney to engage. I'd appreciate any advice in this regard from attorneys at law (ElAbogado, dbrowne1, and others) either here in this thread, or via PM (please use "NFA Arlington" in the subject line, so I don't miss the message).

What say y'all? Anyone else up for jousting at this windmill with me?

I'd appreciate any input from present or past Arlington residents who can demonstrate CLEO having denied approval on Form 4 either here in this thread, or via PM, if we should end up suing, and counsel advises that we should seek class-action status.

If we prevailed in an eventual lawsuit, the investment in attorney fees might be recoverable, and there might be damages. That said, I would not count on recouping the investment, or even a windfall, unless advised of such a possibility by counsel. If we did have to sue to be able to exercise our rights, and we should prevail, I can truthfully say that I will have been proud to have invested my money in a "good thing" for Commonwealth gun-owners.

Who's game?
Edited to fix the form number.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:45:12 AM EDT
I thought I knew people back in the 1990's who had obtained CLEO approval in Arlington, but my memory is somewhat hazy as to the specifics, so I won't swear to it. In any event, that was 8-10 years ago, and things change. Didn't someone sue Arlington county within the last three years or so over their requirement that, as a condition of obtaining the signature, the recipient permit a police search of his premises at any time? I know I read about this, but the only mention I can find of it now is here: Packing.org. I did read elsewhere that the case had been thrown out. What that indicated to me at the time is that the County would sign, but only under what would rightly be considered burdensome conditions. It doesn't fill me with a great deal of hope as to the possibility of a successful lawsuit.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 7:10:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypselus:
... as a condition of obtaining the signature, the recipient permit a police search of his premises at any time?


Sorry for leading you astray with my use of the wrong form number in my preceding post. (It's now fixed.) The goal, at least initially, would be to make an SBR with CLEO signoff in Arlington. If we achieved a success with an SBR, I'd be amenable to following on with an application for a different class.


It doesn't fill me with a great deal of hope as to the possibility of a successful lawsuit.

A year ago, when I first started contermplating this, I thought the same. Now, I stew about it a little -- in no small part because of its arbitrariness, and my current inability to leave Arlington -- and would be happy to try my luck, with some like-minded cohorts, because I'd like to own an SBR.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 7:14:57 AM EDT
The man to talk to is Richard Gardiner, out in Fairfax. Other attorneys have argued against incorporating solely for the purpose of getting around the CLEO signoff - company with no income or assets may be a test case waiting to happen.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 8:51:47 AM EDT

Sorry for leading you astray with my use of the wrong form number in my preceding post. (It's now fixed.) The goal, at least initially, would be to make an SBR with CLEO signoff in Arlington. If we achieved a success with an SBR, I'd be amenable to following on with an application for a different class.

I must be even more ignorant of the ins and outs of Title II weapons than I thought, because I'm not sure what you mean here. For my part, while an SBR, and perhaps a suppressor are feasible for me, MGs and the like are far too spendy for me, as much as I might like to own one.


A year ago, when I first started contermplating this, I thought the same. Now, I stew about it a little -- in no small part because of its arbitrariness, and my current inability to leave Arlington -- and would be happy to try my luck, with some like-minded cohorts, because I'd like to own an SBR.

I agree. I would certainly be willing to try, but I don't want to spend myself into bankruptcy to make a point, either. I suppose the first thing to do is to get our paperwork together and submit it. Where do we start?
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 9:38:12 AM EDT
Hmm last month when I picked up my lower reciever at the trophy room llc in alexandria the owner told me some squirrel had gotten a cleo signiture for a suppressor.

I didnt inquire any further though.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 11:09:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 11:22:45 AM EDT by larrycwdc]

Originally Posted By larrrycwdc:
Sorry for leading you astray with my use of the wrong form number in my preceding post.


Originally Posted By Cypselus:
I'm not sure what you mean here



ATF Form 4, "Application for Tax-Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm," is used to transfer ownership (and pay federal tax) on an NFA weapon that was already made -- and had taxes paid -- at least once in the past. The common usage that I've encountered deals with MGs "on Form 4" which I believe is de facto (if not de jure) evidence of legality of ownership by a non-license holder. (Form 4 is used to transfer all NFA weapons, so it must be completed on the transfer of an SBR as well.)

I know nothing specific about Arlington's stance with respect to MGs. I have a friend who lives in Fairfax County and owns an M16; he related that CLEO signature for full-auto capable weapons was, in part, predicated on their (one-time) verification of acceptable storage conditions for the weapon (e.g., gun safe and workable perimeter locks, with a recommendation for alarm system). Your link to the packing.org thread is the first I've heard of a jurisdiction requiring authorization to conduct future, unannounced, warrantless searches of the locale within which an MG is registered as being stored (if I interpreted the post correctly). I know of no anecdotes of a "storage inspection" (one time or otherwise) being conducted pursuant to ATF Form 1 submissions to CLEOs for SBRs, SBSs, suppressors, and AOW (eta) in Arlington, or any other Commonwealth jurisdiction.


Originally Posted By Cypselus:
I agree. Where do we start?


Like you, I am not a team member. I tried once, but my check must have gotten lost in mail, or something. ARF.com seems slanted to supporting PayPal with respect to membership fees, which irks me. I can't fathom why what is arguably the internet's pre-eminent gun forum has any association -- professional, financial, or otherwise -- with one of the most virulently anti-gun organizations in the country. (Yeah, I hate PayPal, worse than the Brady Bunch, but the hatred is also based on their stance on the services they provide.) Anyhow, consistent with my caste, I don't buy or sell through the EE, having read sentiment that such 'freeloading' is in very bad taste. With this in mind, hometown support for this endeavor might turn out to be tepid compared to what it was during previous collective NFA efforts. (You probably caught some of the threads on Walther/silencer effort that began last fall. I wouldn't anticipate the same level of involvement this time.)

The best first step (which, of course, requires no legal fees) is to peruse the SBR FAQ, and then, if you want to proceed with the submission, complete the form (and ancillary requirements). Bring the packet to the courthouse, turn it in, and await the response.

Like any good penguin, I'll jump into the water if you elect to proceed. Two at one time might give enough pause for the requests to be considered in the proper light. Even better, would be five or ten contemporaneous submissions. This might prevent the issuance of the "automatic no" that many believe will be forthcoming.

Any Arlingtonians up for submitting paperwork at least? The worst it could cost would be $200 ... and then you'd be able to make an SBR that you could legally privately own as a county resident. I believe many submissions received in a small timeframe could make more likely a favorable CLEO response.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 11:19:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OODA_Loop:
The man to talk to is Richard Gardiner, out in Fairfax.



Thanks, for the recommendation! He was already on my list of potential advocates, and I hope to meet him this weekend at the NRA-ILA 2A/RKBA Symposium this weekend at GMU in Arlington. (He is listed as one of the featured speakers.)
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 12:36:28 PM EDT
Well,
I just sent an e-mail to Sheriff Arthur's office asking, very respectfully:


Sheriff Arthur,
I live in Arlington, and have done so for over twenty years. I have no criminal record, and have Virginia permit to carry a concealed handgun. I am interested in making a short-barreled rifle for lawful purposes and in accordance with all applicable laws and rules. As you may know, Federal law requires such firearms to be registered with BATFE and that would-be registrants undergo fingerprinting and a rigorous and lengthy background check. The law also requires that persons applying to register such firearms must first obtain a signature of approval from a Chief Law Enforcement Officer in the jurisdiction in which they reside, certifying that the Officer is unaware of any intent by the applicant to use or possess the firearm unlawfully, and that possession of said firearm is not prohibited by state or local laws. Would I be able to obtain this certification from you or your office?

Respectfully,

Name removed


I've read the SBR FAQ, filled out the forms linked therein, and am, I think, ready to go. The worst that can happen is that they say "no."


I believe many submissions received in a small timeframe could make more likely a favorable CLEO response.

It might work. Or, we might not have any problems, and maybe this is all an urban myth.


Thanks, for the recommendation! He was already on my list of potential advocates, and I hope to meet him this weekend at the NRA-ILA 2A/RKBA Symposium this weekend at GMU in Arlington. (He is listed as one of the featured speakers.)

What's this Symposium? I hadn't heard of it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:06:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypselus:
I just sent an e-mail to Sheriff Arthur's office


If you'd post the response here, I'm sure many would be interested in reading it.


What's this Symposium?


Here's some information about NRA's Firearms Law & Second Amendment Symposium to be held tomorrow. Admission is free, but I'd suggest signing up (by phone) if anyone wants to attend.

If you'd like to coordinate packet submission, let me know... I hope the Sheriff's response includes information about fingerprinting, time/location of packet submission, etc. so I'll hold off on submitting my stuff for now.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:42:21 AM EDT
I'll post a response if and when I get one. I don't think I'll be able to attend the conference tomorrow, but it sounds interesting. If you find out anything about this topic, please pass it on.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 6:18:14 PM EDT
Update:

I received this e-mail this afternoon in response to my e-mail to the Sheriff:


Please contact Detective Wuckovich with the Arlington County Police concerning your request.

Dennis Webb
Chief Deputy



So, now we wait to see Detective Wuckovich's reply.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:57:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 8:58:31 PM EDT by larrycwdc]

Originally Posted By Cypselus:
So, now we wait to see Detective Wuckovich's reply.



... with bated breath, and whispring humblenesse ...
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:54:11 AM EDT
Urban Myth Status:

Busted

Arlington does sign, confirmed per Detective Linda Wuckovich, ACPD, contingent upon their own background check and an inspection of the premises where the firearm will be stored. I'm requesting further information from her, but from her response, it doesn't sound like it's that big a deal.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:53:43 AM EDT
Final update:

I won't be posting the text of our e-mails, but will summarize by saying that it seems like we shouldn't have any problems. I'm going to wait until afer my wedding and honeymoon to begin the application process, if for no other reason than a current shortage of the roughly $400 it will cost me to SBR my rifle. That, and I really ought to buy a safe... I've been putting it off for a long time since I live in a condo, but it's time, and this will light a fire under me to do it.

To apply to ACPD, just get together your Form 1 or Form 4, your citizenship declaration, and fingerprint cards, then contact Det. Wuckovich:
Linda Wuckovich [Lalcor@arlingtonva.us]
She says ACPD takes about 2 to 3 weeks and that the home visit takes between 15-25 minutes and covers general security recommendations to minimize susceptibility to break-in.

Next question: How do I tell me wife-to-be?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 10:17:49 AM EDT

Next question: How do I tell me wife-to-be?
.

You dont

But I dont like the idea about them visiting your home and snooping around.

Is that normal when getting a nfa sign off?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:01:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kbi:

Next question: How do I tell me wife-to-be?
.

You dont

But I dont like the idea about them visiting your home and snooping around.

Is that normal when getting a nfa sign off?



+1 No way that would happen with me....
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 10:38:32 AM EDT
I'm sympathetic, but on the other hand, we're already registering the thing with BATFE, I already have a carry permit, I'm already getting CLEO certification. What's the big deal after all of that with a brief police visit? It's not as if I have any privacy as a gun owner once I go through all of the hoops necessary to own an NFA weapon.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 4:51:37 PM EDT
You know the funny thing is I dont even live in Arlington County but I bet you I could get a CLEO sign off fairly easy. And if you are wondering how? It is all about who you know and how high up they are in teh PD.
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