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Posted: 12/1/2011 7:07:16 AM EST
As a RI resident,I used to transport firearms into Ma to shoot at AFS in Attleboro.At that time,I was an AFS member(it has since expired).Back then the fed awb was in place,and I guess all things were equal,but now,if I wanted to hit AFS for some range time,can I legally carry my arms over the line with the Ma bans?
I'm mostly worried about Hicaps in my USP,and the legality of my AR,and Cetme,plus their mags?Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 8:49:38 AM EST
I'm in the same boat as you.... Was woundering the same thing. Been going to AFS for about two years now with my pistols. But I got this new M4 I've been itching to prove but I'm worried about the Mass gun laws if I should ever get pulled over. You call them up at AFS and asked them the same question and they says its fine do to the fact thier so close to the RI border and all. But its a gamble I'm not willing to take with my $1,500 rifle. We should just open our own range in Foster or something. B/c getting into a gun club in RI is extremely difficult and expensive. On top of all that they want you to do stuff like paint fences and crap.
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 10:17:13 AM EST
No shite,brutha!AFS was going to build a RI location until the beaureacratic stonewall shut em down.I'd love to have the funds to open a range here in RI.
Years back,I called the MA State Police,to ensure I was legally transporting.I guess it's still an option,but the police don't usually know the laws either.
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 11:00:03 AM EST
Yeah, I've heard of folks saying they called the Mass staties and gave them a heads up about bringing Ar's and high cap mags over state lines. Just so if they got pulled over they wouldn't get confiscated. But still the laws the law even if the cops say its all good. Like you said, half of them don't even know the laws themselves. And seeing as you're going to a range that is a plethora of police in training, that might just say hey, wtf you doing shooting such an awsome rifle here in mass. Thats way too cool to be here! And those mags have a ridiclous compacity! Wheres your permit! Then you're screwed...
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 4:37:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By SurfAnimal:
As a RI resident,I used to transport firearms into Ma to shoot at AFS in Attleboro.At that time,I was an AFS member(it has since expired).Back then the fed awb was in place,and I guess all things were equal,but now,if I wanted to hit AFS for some range time,can I legally carry my arms over the line with the Ma bans?
I'm mostly worried about Hicaps in my USP,and the legality of my AR,and Cetme,plus their mags?Thanks.


Do not get caught in MA with post-94-ban mags that can hold more than 10 rounds or a post-94-ban rifle with the "evil features". They will not just confiscate them. It is a felony. Research MA gun law on Northeast Shooters.

Link Posted: 12/1/2011 4:58:07 PM EST
Under Mass law your in sorry shape unless you have an NR LTC.

Without an LTC, you are generally limited to rifles and shotguns that are not considered high capacity firearms. Possession on those is limited (e.g. while hunting, on the grounds of a licensed firing range, locked in trunk/ secured in case) If you have a permit from your home state, and one of the per-se disqualifiers is a drug conviction, you can bring-up handguns that are not-large capacity firearms for the explicit purposes of hunting or competition.

Everything else is legally a no-go without a mass ltc.

Link Posted: 12/1/2011 4:59:02 PM EST
Right,but isn't it also a felony for me(a non Ma ltc holder)to be in possession of ANY weapon,or ammo in MA)?
It's just too damn much work trying to be compliant.
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 5:54:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/1/2011 6:12:38 PM EST by JAD]
Originally Posted By SurfAnimal:
Right,but isn't it also a felony for me(a non Ma ltc holder)to be in possession of ANY weapon,or ammo in MA)?
It's just too damn much work trying to be compliant.


Did you read the post above yours or do you want statutory cites?

There are circumstances when a non-resident may possess certain firearms in Mass without an LTC and not be guilty of any crimes. Taking handguns and large capacity firearms to AFS to plink DOES NOT qualify, but there are other circumstances that do.

129C(f)-(i) inclusive and (p) exempt nonresidents from the prohibition on doing the following without an FID/ LTC: possessing rifles/ shotguns for licensed hunting, posession of rifles/ shotguns on a firing/ shooting range, "possession of rifles and shotguns o and ammunition thereof by nonresidents of the commonwelath, providing that any rifles or shotguns are unloaded enclosed in a case", possession by non residents at a gun collector's assn exhibition for display, and carry/ possession of black powder (muzzle loading) rifles/shotguns by non-residents if allowed under their home-state laws.

131G Carrying firearms by non-residents- Authorizes any non-resident of the commonwealth to "carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting" if that person is a "resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district, or territory thereof which has licensing requirments which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession, or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs..." (The law goes onto establish hunting license reqs for the hunting motivation)

There are no exemptions to prohibitions on large capacity firearm and ammunition feeding device laws for non-residents.

When I'm flat out wrong, I capitulate fairly easily.In fact, there were a couple of errors in my post (where I described exemptions as less permissive than they are)- though the post as a whole was more or less correct. I'm usually not wrong on whacky legal topic....like this one....
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 6:16:37 PM EST
Actually,that post wasn't there when I posted.Check the times.I just didn't feel like editting it.Forget Mass.
Link Posted: 12/1/2011 6:25:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/1/2011 6:25:57 PM EST by JAD]
Originally Posted By SurfAnimal:
Actually,that post wasn't there when I posted.Check the times.I just didn't feel like editting it.Forget Mass.


I figured you were just a fast reader/ typist
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 3:27:34 AM EST
Reader?Yes
Typist?Not hardly.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 4:24:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2011 4:27:53 AM EST by RhodeIslandRanger]
What about this:

For non-residents bringing in rifles and shotguns, the law is fairly simple regarding who is exempt from licensing. In short, if it's legal to possess them in your home state, you can possess them in Mass. This is covered under Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 140 Section 129C (specifically sections (f), (g), (h), (i) and (p))

Got that from here: NorthEast Shooters

But it goes on to say no high cap mags with out a class A or B licences.... So is it legit if I bring 10 rd mags for my AR?
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 7:40:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2011 7:40:44 AM EST by LenS]
JAD laid out the exceptions in law. HOWEVER, EOPS has recently "re-interpreted" 131G in a way a LOT less favorable to visiting gun owners.

Yes, possession of any guns/ammo/components outside of these exemptions (which MA LEOs are mostly unaware of) can lead to a felony conviction.

A MA NR LTC will only cover you for items which are legal in MA!! There is no exemption for this (read S. 131M). So, no post-9/13/1994 hi-cap mags for anything at anytime, no "AWs" with evil features if the gun wasn't originally MADE in AW configuration on/before 9/13/1994!

I'd recommend staying out of MA at all costs, go to CT maybe if you have to go outside of RI.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 8:34:31 AM EST
MMmk.... On that note is there any ranges in CT that are like AFS? Where you can walk in off the street pay for an hour of range time and have no one bust your balls? This sucks, AFS is so dame close to most RI residents.. I think they get more RI business than they do Mass.. I'm not a criminal I have no record why can't I just go shoot my damn M4? Whats the big fucking deal? You know what I'm gonna do, I'm going to start a floating range on the high seas.. Out far enough so there's no damn bullshit gun laws.. I'll have little remote controlled boats as targets.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 9:39:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
MMmk.... On that note is there any ranges in CT that are like AFS? Where you can walk in off the street pay for an hour of range time and have no one bust your balls? This sucks, AFS is so dame close to most RI residents.. I think they get more RI business than they do Mass.. I'm not a criminal I have no record why can't I just go shoot my damn M4? Whats the big fucking deal? You know what I'm gonna do, I'm going to start a floating range on the high seas.. Out far enough so there's no damn bullshit gun laws.. I'll have little remote controlled boats as targets.


Good for you.You'll be all set for your "boating accident".
I bring the shotgun out for sharking,but that's about it.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 9:46:43 AM EST
This place looks closed for the winter,and is handguns only,but it's obscure enough that I didn't know about it till recently.fyi.
http://warwickrange.org/index.html
Theres also the state public range(also closed for the season),with a sign up window,after which you are SOL.This state sucks the balls of arboreal primates.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 12:12:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By LenS:
JAD laid out the exceptions in law. HOWEVER, EOPS has recently "re-interpreted" 131G in a way a LOT less favorable to visiting gun owners.
Yes, possession of any guns/ammo/components outside of these exemptions (which MA LEOs are mostly unaware of) can lead to a felony conviction.

A MA NR LTC will only cover you for items which are legal in MA!! There is no exemption for this (read S. 131M). So, no post-9/13/1994 hi-cap mags for anything at anytime, no "AWs" with evil features if the gun wasn't originally MADE in AW configuration on/before 9/13/1994!

I'd recommend staying out of MA at all costs, go to CT maybe if you have to go outside of RI.


Could you share anything about the current EOPS interpretation? I would really appreciate that information.

I am aware that in the long standing interpretation of 131G has been that (re. the competition section) that the individual was supposed to be attending a formal competition- contrary to the claims by some that sn informal competition added to a range outing or training session could permit possession in an otherwise impermissible context. I am also aware that the previous best-practice was to pre-register and carry proof of registraton or at least the match bulletin as evidence of bon-a-fide enrollment in a competition. I also recall 131G being used to defend possession by vendors/ exhibitors at formal gun shows.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 12:15:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2011 12:15:55 PM EST by JAD]
Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
What about this:

For non-residents bringing in rifles and shotguns, the law is fairly simple regarding who is exempt from licensing. In short, if it's legal to possess them in your home state, you can possess them in Mass. This is covered under Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 140 Section 129C (specifically sections (f), (g), (h), (i) and (p))

Got that from here: NorthEast Shooters

But it goes on to say no high cap mags with out a class A or B licences.... So is it legit if I bring 10 rd mags for my AR?


The AR would still be a large capacity firearm thus requiring an LTC to possess. Though the exemption that permits possession of rifles by non-residents in certain specifically defined situations/ contexts is blanket, other sections that regulate large capacity firearms do not have such an exemption and thus one could be subject to criminal liability for violating those sections.
Link Posted: 12/2/2011 12:38:07 PM EST
JAD,

If you read what you posted for 131G verbatim here's how EOPS has recently interpreted this:

- Since 131G does not SPECIFICALLY enumerate "large capacity" it is forbidden (illegal).

Their latest approach is that if something isn't SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED in a particular law, that it is illegal.

Meanwhile I've been doing research (without success) to find the law that SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS Mass Residents to breathe! I'm afraid that any day now TPTB will declare breathing in MA to be illegal under the same philosophy!

MA gun laws and interpretations thereof are so convoluted that I have put together a 3 hour seminar just to cover the idiosyncrasies so that people in MA (or those traveling in MA) will be aware of all the "gotchas" and some workarounds. Link for more info. http://www.massltctrain.com/ma-firearms-class-information.html

The following is a very brief outline of the type of content:
Mass. Gun Laws By and For Non-Lawyers (How To Stay Legal and Out of Trouble)

A three (3) hour exploration of Massachusetts gun laws including time for your questions and answers.
  • Exposing the rumors and presenting the facts.
  • The Lawful use of Lethal Force for Self Defense.
  • Safe Storage, Carry,"Forbidden Places," and Transportation.
  • Buying, Shipping, and Inheritance of firearms
  • Understanding "Large Capacity" and "Assault Weapons"
  • Boston Laws, transportation over state lines, and more....
Originally Posted By JAD:
Originally Posted By LenS:
JAD laid out the exceptions in law. HOWEVER, EOPS has recently "re-interpreted" 131G in a way a LOT less favorable to visiting gun owners.
Yes, possession of any guns/ammo/components outside of these exemptions (which MA LEOs are mostly unaware of) can lead to a felony conviction.

A MA NR LTC will only cover you for items which are legal in MA!! There is no exemption for this (read S. 131M). So, no post-9/13/1994 hi-cap mags for anything at anytime, no "AWs" with evil features if the gun wasn't originally MADE in AW configuration on/before 9/13/1994!

I'd recommend staying out of MA at all costs, go to CT maybe if you have to go outside of RI.


Could you share anything about the current EOPS interpretation? I would really appreciate that information.

I am aware that in the long standing interpretation of 131G has been that (re. the competition section) that the individual was supposed to be attending a formal competition- contrary to the claims by some that sn informal competition added to a range outing or training session could permit possession in an otherwise impermissible context. I am also aware that the previous best-practice was to pre-register and carry proof of registraton or at least the match bulletin as evidence of bon-a-fide enrollment in a competition. I also recall 131G being used to defend possession by vendors/ exhibitors at formal gun shows.


Link Posted: 12/2/2011 1:15:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By LenS:
JAD,

If you read what you posted for 131G verbatim here's how EOPS has recently interpreted this:

- Since 131G does not SPECIFICALLY enumerate "large capacity" it is forbidden (illegal).

Their latest approach is that if something isn't SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED in a particular law, that it is illegal.

Meanwhile I've been doing research (without success) to find the law that SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS Mass Residents to breathe! I'm afraid that any day now TPTB will declare breathing in MA to be illegal under the same philosophy!

MA gun laws and interpretations thereof are so convoluted that I have put together a 3 hour seminar just to cover the idiosyncrasies so that people in MA (or those traveling in MA) will be aware of all the "gotchas" and some workarounds. Link for more info. http://www.massltctrain.com/ma-firearms-class-information.html

The following is a very brief outline of the type of content:
Mass. Gun Laws By and For Non-Lawyers (How To Stay Legal and Out of Trouble)

A three (3) hour exploration of Massachusetts gun laws including time for your questions and answers.
  • Exposing the rumors and presenting the facts.
  • The Lawful use of Lethal Force for Self Defense.
  • Safe Storage, Carry,"Forbidden Places," and Transportation.
  • Buying, Shipping, and Inheritance of firearms
  • Understanding "Large Capacity" and "Assault Weapons"
  • Boston Laws, transportation over state lines, and more....
Originally Posted By JAD:
Originally Posted By LenS:
JAD laid out the exceptions in law. HOWEVER, EOPS has recently "re-interpreted" 131G in a way a LOT less favorable to visiting gun owners.
Yes, possession of any guns/ammo/components outside of these exemptions (which MA LEOs are mostly unaware of) can lead to a felony conviction.

A MA NR LTC will only cover you for items which are legal in MA!! There is no exemption for this (read S. 131M). So, no post-9/13/1994 hi-cap mags for anything at anytime, no "AWs" with evil features if the gun wasn't originally MADE in AW configuration on/before 9/13/1994!

I'd recommend staying out of MA at all costs, go to CT maybe if you have to go outside of RI.


Could you share anything about the current EOPS interpretation? I would really appreciate that information.

I am aware that in the long standing interpretation of 131G has been that (re. the competition section) that the individual was supposed to be attending a formal competition- contrary to the claims by some that sn informal competition added to a range outing or training session could permit possession in an otherwise impermissible context. I am also aware that the previous best-practice was to pre-register and carry proof of registraton or at least the match bulletin as evidence of bon-a-fide enrollment in a competition. I also recall 131G being used to defend possession by vendors/ exhibitors at formal gun shows.




Ah, in other words, they have decided to totally recant on basic principals of English/ American law.

I was already under the impression that large capacitywas a no-go- but not necessarily because of 131G.

The course looks interesting, I may have to take it.

Link Posted: 12/5/2011 12:56:54 PM EST
what if I am moving from CT to ME, just going through MA not stopping anywhere.
Link Posted: 12/5/2011 2:23:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/5/2011 2:53:43 PM EST by zegermanznew]
Originally Posted By skua:
what if I am moving from CT to ME, just going through MA not stopping anywhere.




Bury them under all your stuff and don't get pulled over. (Don't give them any reason to pull you over.)

They will only take the time to search through your entire lifes belongings if you were throwing your giant sacks of cocaine out the window when they turned their lights on behind you.

And don't for any reason put them inside your vehicles passenger compartment.


ETA: Mild dis-assembly and no loaded mags couldn't hurt your cause either.
Link Posted: 12/5/2011 3:33:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By skua:
what if I am moving from CT to ME, just going through MA not stopping anywhere.


Read and FOLLOW the letter of the law in FOPA-1986 and you'll be fine. If you don't comply with FOPA you have NO PROTECTION while in MA and are subject to be a guest of the state for the following 10 or more years if for any reason they discover what you have in the car. So merely "covering" everything puts you at risk of a prison sentence. FOPA will cover you.
Link Posted: 12/5/2011 4:14:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By LenS:

Originally Posted By skua:
what if I am moving from CT to ME, just going through MA not stopping anywhere.


Read and FOLLOW the letter of the law in FOPA-1986 and you'll be fine. If you don't comply with FOPA you have NO PROTECTION while in MA and are subject to be a guest of the state for the following 10 or more years if for any reason they discover what you have in the car. So merely "covering" everything puts you at risk of a prison sentence. FOPA will cover you.


Or ignore me and listen to this guy!
Link Posted: 12/6/2011 12:35:20 AM EST
Thanks
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 7:09:35 AM EST
It has come to my Attention the American Fireaarms School in North Attleboro Mass has a competition certificate from the Mass State Police. So according to Mass law us Rhode Islanders are all legal to bring our high cap mags AR15's and what have you that are legal in RI to there facilities.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 10:49:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
It has come to my Attention the American Fireaarms School in North Attleboro Mass has a competition certificate from the Mass State Police. So according to Mass law us Rhode Islanders are all legal to bring our high cap mags AR15's and what have you that are legal in RI to there facilities.

I'd be laughing my ass off at this if it wasn't so serious!

I teach MA gun law seminars and can tell you the following:

- There is no such thing as a "competition certificate from the Mass State Police",
- There is NO exemption for possession of banned "AWs" or banned high cap mags in MA,
- The Mass State Police don't prosecute infractions like this, it is the local PD and County DAs that do and I can guarantee you that they aren't on-board with what you stated above.

Whoever told you this is blowing smoke up your ass, sorry! And if caught, those that do the time won't be the staff at AFS or Mass State Police
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 5:39:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By LenS:

Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
It has come to my Attention the American Fireaarms School in North Attleboro Mass has a competition certificate from the Mass State Police. So according to Mass law us Rhode Islanders are all legal to bring our high cap mags AR15's and what have you that are legal in RI to there facilities.

I'd be laughing my ass off at this if it wasn't so serious!

I teach MA gun law seminars and can tell you the following: Do you hold a law degree in Mass?

- There is no such thing as a "competition certificate from the Mass State Police", Then explain to me how competitions are held?
- There is NO exemption for possession of banned "AWs" or banned high cap mags in MA, Then how does AFS have Ak47's and AR15's for rent?
- The Mass State Police don't prosecute infractions like this, it is the local PD and County DAs that do and I can guarantee you that they aren't on-board with what you stated above. But to travel to MA from RI you use the interstate which is under state jurisdiction. You travel on City roads for what 5 min to the facility?

Whoever told you this is blowing smoke up your ass, sorry! And if caught, those that do the time won't be the staff at AFS or Mass State Police


Link Posted: 1/5/2012 5:40:38 AM EST
So what if this "certificate" is valid or whatever. The law states that you can only bring your guns to a competition of sorts. Couldn't AFS just say that they have an ongoing competition that all you have to do to enter is submit your targets for scoring after each shooting session? Something along the lines of a monthly judging or what not and continues all year long whenever they are open. I think this could be a valid work around for that particular law. I mean its not like I'm bring my guns into Mass stopping over at gramas house then going out to a bar or anything. I'm driving over the state line for what 5-10 min max going directly to a bona fide shooting range then traveling directly back to RI.

I read somewhere that alot of RI residents that are members of Mass clubs have permission to bring their guns from RI to their MA clubs under the pretense that just going to that particular gun club qualifies as a shooting event. So as long as you have your RI blue card and your guns are legal in your state of residents you should be all good.. But who wants to be the guinea pig to prove this fact?

Isn't there any Federal protection here? I can by Federal law travel through Mass with my guns as long as I don't stop in Mass and I'm going to a destination that they are legal ie: traveling to Maine to go hunting. So under that line of thinking why can't I just go to a bona fide range? My interpretation of the law leads me to believe its stating that I can't carry around a rifle or pistol in my car while I go to a mall in Mass but why not to a sanctioned facility?
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:18:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 6:19:34 AM EST by LenS]
Your responses prove to me that you do not know anything about MA gun laws or FOPA (Fed Law), so my first suggestion is that you do some reading before giving advice to others that can earn them a 10 year sentence in Cedar Junction (aka Walpole State Prison)! [Not being nasty or sarcastic here. If you live near a border it pays to read the laws of both states very carefully.]

Start with the requirements of FOPA. 18 USC 926A . . . once you stop in MA for anything other than a meal/bathroom/gas, it has become a "destination" and for FOPA to apply you must be "legal" to possess the guns/ammo/mags in that state. [Ref. the poor guy from PA whose flight was canceled and forced to land in NJ and claim his baggage (with legally checked handgun), upon return to NJ airport next morning to complete his trip he was arrested and convicted, lost on appeal. Ruling was that FOPA does NOT protect you if you "delay" yourself in an unfriendly state (he stayed overnight at airport hotel).]

Next read MGL C. 140 S. 131M on the MA AWB and large capacity ban. Refer to S. 121 Definitions of what exactly is an "AW" in MA legalese.

For "visitors" the exemptions to the NR LTC requirements can be found in S. 129C (p) This has been interpreted by EOPS (who run MSP) as ONLY exempting BP or conventional rifles/shotguns/ammo (for them) ONLY and does NOT include any handguns or large capacity guns/mags.

Further look at S. 131G for the rest of the exemptions. Read it carefully and you will find that for any other state's permit to be "acceptable in MA" that it must have been issued with essentially the same exact requirements as MA (see S. 129B & 131 for FID and LTC respectively). It has been stated to me by officials within the EOPS system that no states meet these requirements. Without doing specific research, I suspect that no more than 5 states MIGHT meet the requirements, but I can tell you that a "blue card" will not meet the standards of MA in any way.

In conclusion, I have been in contact with both the attorney for AFS and the manager of AFS and they agree that they have no such certificate and claim that no employee ever told anyone such mis-information that you stated above. I hope that Matt will drop in here and confirm that, but that's up to him.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:54:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 7:12:32 AM EST by RhodeIslandRanger]
Originally Posted By LenS:
Your responses prove to me that you do not know anything about MA gun laws or FOPA (Fed Law), so my first suggestion is that you do some reading before giving advice to others that can earn them a 10 year sentence in Cedar Junction (aka Walpole State Prison)! [Not being nasty or sarcastic here. If you live near a border it pays to read the laws of both states very carefully.] I'm not giving advice I'm merely passing information along to see if its valid. No need to be such a doucher

Start with the requirements of FOPA. 18 USC 926A . . . once you stop in MA for anything other than a meal/bathroom/gas, it has become a "destination" and for FOPA to apply you must be "legal" to possess the guns/ammo/mags in that state. [Ref. the poor guy from PA whose flight was canceled and forced to land in NJ and claim his baggage (with legally checked handgun), upon return to NJ airport next morning to complete his trip he was arrested and convicted, lost on appeal. Ruling was that FOPA does NOT protect you if you "delay" yourself in an unfriendly state (he stayed overnight at airport hotel).] Yes but again, why can't you go to a competition at a shooting range?

Next read MGL C. 140 S. 131M on the MA AWB and large capacity ban. Refer to S. 121 Definitions of what exactly is an "AW" in MA legalese. But is says if its legal in your home state its cool.

For "visitors" the exemptions to the NR LTC requirements can be found in S. 129C (p) This has been interpreted by EOPS (who run MSP) as ONLY exempting BP or conventional rifles/shotguns/ammo (for them) ONLY and does NOT include any handguns or large capacity guns/mags. I see guys with Ak's there all the time

Further look at S. 131G for the rest of the exemptions. Read it carefully and you will find that for any other state's permit to be "acceptable in MA" that it must have been issued with essentially the same exact requirements as MA (see S. 129B & 131 for FID and LTC respectively). It has been stated to me by officials within the EOPS system that no states meet these requirements. Without doing specific research, I suspect that no more than 5 states MIGHT meet the requirements, but I can tell you that a "blue card" will not meet the standards of MA in any way. I have a Mass FID card from when I use to live there

In conclusion, I have been in contact with both the attorney for AFS and the manager of AFS and they agree that they have no such certificate and claim that no employee ever told anyone such mis-information that you stated above. I hope that Matt will drop in here and confirm that, but that's up to him.
I was told about this certificate from a member of AFS who happens to be a RI resident. AFS is giving out enough of their own mis-information. But as I stated above was a hypothetical scenario for a monthly competition and was not referring to an ongoing practice. Just an idea to get around Massachusetts ridiculous laws against legal law abiding citizens.


Link Posted: 1/5/2012 7:08:44 AM EST
The guys at AFS told me that I would be perfectly legal so long as I go straight to the range; further trying to convince me I would be breaking no laws they pointed out the fact that a very large percentage of their customers are from RI, and none of them have non-resident carry permits. It is without a doubt illegal to transport handguns up to AFS from RI unless you're going for an official competition, which target shooting is not. I have to believe they're fully aware of the law and are giving out bad legal advice to keep RI customers coming back.

I have heard the same thing over the years from a number of people and that is why I decided to check with GOAL. The owners of AFS obviously have something to gain financially by telling people that "it is perfectly legal"....but in fact it is not. Check it out for yourself and take nobody's word for what is legal and what is not. The two individuals that I spoke to...one from GOAL and one from NAPD both told me otherwise...but you should not take my word for it either.....make the calls.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 7:36:51 AM EST

Did you just change your stance in the 14 minutes between your last two posts?


Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
Originally Posted By LenS:
Your responses prove to me that you do not know anything about MA gun laws or FOPA (Fed Law), so my first suggestion is that you do some reading before giving advice to others that can earn them a 10 year sentence in Cedar Junction (aka Walpole State Prison)! [Not being nasty or sarcastic here. If you live near a border it pays to read the laws of both states very carefully.] I'm not giving advice I'm merely passing information along to see if its valid. No need to be such a doucher

Start with the requirements of FOPA. 18 USC 926A . . . once you stop in MA for anything other than a meal/bathroom/gas, it has become a "destination" and for FOPA to apply you must be "legal" to possess the guns/ammo/mags in that state. [Ref. the poor guy from PA whose flight was canceled and forced to land in NJ and claim his baggage (with legally checked handgun), upon return to NJ airport next morning to complete his trip he was arrested and convicted, lost on appeal. Ruling was that FOPA does NOT protect you if you "delay" yourself in an unfriendly state (he stayed overnight at airport hotel).] Yes but again, why can't you go to a competition at a shooting range?

Next read MGL C. 140 S. 131M on the MA AWB and large capacity ban. Refer to S. 121 Definitions of what exactly is an "AW" in MA legalese. But is says if its legal in your home state its cool.

For "visitors" the exemptions to the NR LTC requirements can be found in S. 129C (p) This has been interpreted by EOPS (who run MSP) as ONLY exempting BP or conventional rifles/shotguns/ammo (for them) ONLY and does NOT include any handguns or large capacity guns/mags. I see guys with Ak's there all the time

Further look at S. 131G for the rest of the exemptions. Read it carefully and you will find that for any other state's permit to be "acceptable in MA" that it must have been issued with essentially the same exact requirements as MA (see S. 129B & 131 for FID and LTC respectively). It has been stated to me by officials within the EOPS system that no states meet these requirements. Without doing specific research, I suspect that no more than 5 states MIGHT meet the requirements, but I can tell you that a "blue card" will not meet the standards of MA in any way. I have a Mass FID card from when I use to live there

In conclusion, I have been in contact with both the attorney for AFS and the manager of AFS and they agree that they have no such certificate and claim that no employee ever told anyone such mis-information that you stated above. I hope that Matt will drop in here and confirm that, but that's up to him.
I was told about this certificate from a member of AFS who happens to be a RI resident. AFS is giving out enough of their own mis-information. But as I stated above was a hypothetical scenario for a monthly competition and was not referring to an ongoing practice. Just an idea to get around Massachusetts ridiculous laws against legal law abiding citizens.






Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
The guys at AFS told me that I would be perfectly legal so long as I go straight to the range; further trying to convince me I would be breaking no laws they pointed out the fact that a very large percentage of their customers are from RI, and none of them have non-resident carry permits. It is without a doubt illegal to transport handguns up to AFS from RI unless you're going for an official competition, which target shooting is not. I have to believe they're fully aware of the law and are giving out bad legal advice to keep RI customers coming back.

I have heard the same thing over the years from a number of people and that is why I decided to check with GOAL. The owners of AFS obviously have something to gain financially by telling people that "it is perfectly legal"....but in fact it is not. Check it out for yourself and take nobody's word for what is legal and what is not. The two individuals that I spoke to...one from GOAL and one from NAPD both told me otherwise...but you should not take my word for it either.....make the calls.

Link Posted: 1/5/2012 7:41:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By Andrapos:

Did you just change your stance in the 14 minutes between your last two posts?


Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
Originally Posted By LenS:
Your responses prove to me that you do not know anything about MA gun laws or FOPA (Fed Law), so my first suggestion is that you do some reading before giving advice to others that can earn them a 10 year sentence in Cedar Junction (aka Walpole State Prison)! [Not being nasty or sarcastic here. If you live near a border it pays to read the laws of both states very carefully.] I'm not giving advice I'm merely passing information along to see if its valid. No need to be such a doucher

Start with the requirements of FOPA. 18 USC 926A . . . once you stop in MA for anything other than a meal/bathroom/gas, it has become a "destination" and for FOPA to apply you must be "legal" to possess the guns/ammo/mags in that state. [Ref. the poor guy from PA whose flight was canceled and forced to land in NJ and claim his baggage (with legally checked handgun), upon return to NJ airport next morning to complete his trip he was arrested and convicted, lost on appeal. Ruling was that FOPA does NOT protect you if you "delay" yourself in an unfriendly state (he stayed overnight at airport hotel).] Yes but again, why can't you go to a competition at a shooting range?

Next read MGL C. 140 S. 131M on the MA AWB and large capacity ban. Refer to S. 121 Definitions of what exactly is an "AW" in MA legalese. But is says if its legal in your home state its cool.

For "visitors" the exemptions to the NR LTC requirements can be found in S. 129C (p) This has been interpreted by EOPS (who run MSP) as ONLY exempting BP or conventional rifles/shotguns/ammo (for them) ONLY and does NOT include any handguns or large capacity guns/mags. I see guys with Ak's there all the time

Further look at S. 131G for the rest of the exemptions. Read it carefully and you will find that for any other state's permit to be "acceptable in MA" that it must have been issued with essentially the same exact requirements as MA (see S. 129B & 131 for FID and LTC respectively). It has been stated to me by officials within the EOPS system that no states meet these requirements. Without doing specific research, I suspect that no more than 5 states MIGHT meet the requirements, but I can tell you that a "blue card" will not meet the standards of MA in any way. I have a Mass FID card from when I use to live there

In conclusion, I have been in contact with both the attorney for AFS and the manager of AFS and they agree that they have no such certificate and claim that no employee ever told anyone such mis-information that you stated above. I hope that Matt will drop in here and confirm that, but that's up to him.
I was told about this certificate from a member of AFS who happens to be a RI resident. AFS is giving out enough of their own mis-information. But as I stated above was a hypothetical scenario for a monthly competition and was not referring to an ongoing practice. Just an idea to get around Massachusetts ridiculous laws against legal law abiding citizens.






Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:
The guys at AFS told me that I would be perfectly legal so long as I go straight to the range; further trying to convince me I would be breaking no laws they pointed out the fact that a very large percentage of their customers are from RI, and none of them have non-resident carry permits. It is without a doubt illegal to transport handguns up to AFS from RI unless you're going for an official competition, which target shooting is not. I have to believe they're fully aware of the law and are giving out bad legal advice to keep RI customers coming back.

I have heard the same thing over the years from a number of people and that is why I decided to check with GOAL. The owners of AFS obviously have something to gain financially by telling people that "it is perfectly legal"....but in fact it is not. Check it out for yourself and take nobody's word for what is legal and what is not. The two individuals that I spoke to...one from GOAL and one from NAPD both told me otherwise...but you should not take my word for it either.....make the calls.



Well I was trying to use the competition angle. But yeah did some more research as to what qualifies as a "competition" Massachusetts is retarded..
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 8:07:53 AM EST
Sounds like he might have made a few phone calls over those few minutes and learned that what I stated is correct?

I don't agree with all the positions of EOPS on this stuff, all I'm doing is "reporting" what their position is and I have an ear to the ground about their current thinking/positions.

I've heard so much mis-information from various instructors, MA dealers and LEOs that it was the reason that I created the MA gun laws seminar . . . to properly inform people willing to listen as to what the laws are and "current thinking" amongst those charged with enforcement. I do NOT give "legal advice" and have citations for damn near everything, always advising people to check for themselves. It's also why I went to the effort to post that last litany of citations so that anyone can check and verify the information for themselves.

As for AKs and ARs, if one has a LTC (NR or resident) one can possess them and bring them to AFS or a club in MA, provided they comply with the AWB (and mags likewise). Personally I have both guns and own both pre-ban and post-ban (MA AWB compliant) versions of each.

I see violations of the MA gun laws all the time. Luckily it is no longer my job to enforce them, so I just mind my own business unless someone asks me a question about it. On various forums I try to set the record straight, but people are free to believe me, check for themselves (best) or totally ignore the info and take their chances . . . it's up to each of us to make our own decisions.

To our RI expert - your old FID card became invalid as soon as you moved from MA, that's the law. If it was issued prior to 1998 it was marked as good for life or "unless revoked" . . . well the 1998 law "canceled" all our lives and they all expired on a timetable over a few years. In addition, if you didn't notify the issuing authority and CHSB/CJIS within 30 days of when you moved, you violated MGL C. 140 S. 129B(11) & S. 131(1) and can be denied a NR LTC (or resident LTC) by statute. If you did notify, they invalidated your FID in the state's database automatically. Note: There is no such thing as a NR FID card, only LTCs can be issued to NRs.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 8:09:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:

Well I was trying to use the competition angle. But yeah did some more research as to what qualifies as a "competition" Massachusetts is retarded..


Well, we can finally agree about something!
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 8:30:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By LenS:

Originally Posted By RhodeIslandRanger:

Well I was trying to use the competition angle. But yeah did some more research as to what qualifies as a "competition" Massachusetts is retarded..


Well, we can finally agree about something!


Yeah I think I was just hearing what I wanted to be true... I really wish we had a facility like AFS here in RI.. Our only public alterative is a DEM range thats open from April till September and its only 22 rimfire :( But besides that we have some rod and gun clubs, but you have to wait for someone to die before you can even apply...
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 8:32:48 AM EST
I think AFS should show some resposibitly here.. At least post a sign out front that states, "If you are from out of state and have a gun with you turn back now!"
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:45:19 PM EST
I want to thank everybody who contributed to this thread as it is a real eye opener. My wife & I have been thinking about buying a summer home up north (grew up in Providence) and being able to shoot is important. The gun laws you describe in MA & RI are truly pathetic. We considered buying acreage in Foster, RI or Maine but traveling with firearms through NJ, NY, RI, & MA is a sickening thought. Wish you all the best but we will stay south of the Masson/Dixon line even if the food here sucks.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 6:05:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 6:16:41 AM EST by eric496]
Originally Posted By LenS:
JAD laid out the exceptions in law. HOWEVER, EOPS has recently "re-interpreted" 131G in a way a LOT less favorable to visiting gun owners.

Yes, possession of any guns/ammo/components outside of these exemptions (which MA LEOs are mostly unaware of) can lead to a felony conviction.

A MA NR LTC will only cover you for items which are legal in MA!! There is no exemption for this (read S. 131M). So, no post-9/13/1994 hi-cap mags for anything at anytime, no "AWs" with evil features if the gun wasn't originally MADE in AW configuration on/before 9/13/1994!

I'd recommend staying out of MA at all costs, go to CT maybe if you have to go outside of RI.


So, the laws governing visiting gun owners have been re-interpreted? Wonderful! How does that affect non-resident hunters? Am I safe during hunting season, with a non-resident hunting license, and with an appropriate low capacity hunting shotgun or muzzle-loader? Obviously it must be unloaded in the vehicle. If possible, I ride around with a MA, LTC holding resident in their vehicle and leave mine parked at their house.

I did read that the discrepancy in the law about whether or not a muzzleloader is in fact loaded was fixed. Without a cap or primer, it is unloaded now.

ETA: I do have a NH resident pistol permit which is worthless down there until CCW reciprocity becomes law of the land. I have no drug conviction of any kind, but I don't know off the top of my head if that would be a dis-qualifier.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 6:12:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By ARSTAF:
I want to thank everybody who contributed to this thread as it is a real eye opener. My wife & I have been thinking about buying a summer home up north (grew up in Providence) and being able to shoot is important. The gun laws you describe in MA & RI are truly pathetic. We considered buying acreage in Foster, RI or Maine but traveling with firearms through NJ, NY, RI, & MA is a sickening thought. Wish you all the best but we will stay south of the Masson/Dixon line even if the food here sucks.


NH, ME, and VT are very gun owner friendly. If you own a summer home, you could always leave a few firearms there. Then you only need to drive through one of the other states once, in compliance with FOPA. Just sayin'. I hope we can get reciprocity passed so my friends to the south will have no choice but to recognize our permits.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:39:56 PM EST
I'm not a hunter, so I tread very lightly in giving advice wrt MA hunting laws, but it sounds like what you are doing is OK.

Even if reciprocity became Fed Law (which it won't for the foreseeable future . . . it won't pass the Senate and the Big O will veto it if it did), you can bet that somehow MA will find a way to flaunt it. You can count on that, based on past history (LEOSA is violated in MA by the CMR they wrote and passed).
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