Posted: 5/10/2009 4:35:44 PM EDT
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I've seen pictures of guys living in the PRK with 30 round PMAGs. I know some might be pinned and only hold 10 rounds but I have seen guys buying rebuild kits. My question is how do you show you rebuilt a magazine you previously owned with a PMAG body and later installed a new follower and spring and legally use this in an AR?
How do you prove you rebuilt the magazine instead of buying one and bringing it across? Also I read on calguns that you CAN'T use a magazine with 11+ round capacity on a gun with a bullet button, is that correct? |
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Quoted:
I've seen pictures of guys living in the PRK with 30 round PMAGs. I know some might be pinned and only hold 10 rounds but I have seen guys buying rebuild kits. My question is how do you show you rebuilt a magazine you previously owned with a PMAG body and later installed a new follower and spring and legally use this in an AR? How do you prove you rebuilt the magazine instead of buying one and bringing it across? Also I read on calguns that you CAN'T use a magazine with 11+ round capacity on a gun with a bullet button, is that correct? I'll let the district attorney prove that I didn't have an existing magazine that I rebuilt. It's impossible to prove that I did not possess the magazines prior to the morning of January 1, 2000. Now find a 21 year old guy and the effort becomes a bit more easy. Yes, the bullet button allows you to use evil features like a pistol grip with 10 round magazines. The MonsterMan grip allows the use of no evil features and normal magazines. |
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You sir have a lot of reading to do:
We aren't lawyers, we are faceless people over the internet. Here is a link to the Penal Code. http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2.php Basic US laws are helpful to know as well, especially regarding the presumption of innocence and burden of proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence |
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I know I have a lot of reading to do and I was hoping to generate responses from individuals who have rebuilt a 20 or 30 round magazine and possibly been questioned at a gun range.
I could imagine a 21 year old would have a much harder time explaining how they acquired a 30 round magazine when they were about 11 or 12 when the ban went into effect 1/1/2000 and they could have acquired them in 1999 or worked hard doing manual labor so they could have magazines for a build they plan for their 18th birthday and a relative up to date with current legislation regarding legal ownership of firearms and accesories. I'm not quite clear how the Penal Code cited explains how it is legal to rebuild a 11+ capacity magazine using new parts but I do know ownership must have taken place before 1/1/00 and once they leave the state they cannot come back in but that's not my question. I've just got a couple that could use a rebuild and I know there are retailers who sell replacement parts for magazines legally owned in the State of California. |
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Its easy...
Law say, you can't make, sell, import >10 rd mags in CA after 1/1/2000. Law doesnt say you can't own, repair or use them. its that simple. If I owned it before the date...its legal for me to use, its legal for me to repair. There is no wording in the law stopping me from repairing the magazine up to and including replacing EVERY SINGLE PART. The burden of proof is on the State to show I never owned the magazine prior to the date of 1/1/2000 while in California. There is also no wording in the law requiring me to leave the magazine in the state for the whole time. I could have bought the magazine in 1999, moved to Russia with the magazine then moved back here in 2009 and the magazine is still LEGAL here. |
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Quoted:
I could imagine a 21 year old would have a much harder time explaining how they acquired a 30 round magazine when they were about 11 or 12 when the ban went into effect 1/1/2000 and they could have acquired them in 1999 or worked hard doing manual labor so they could have magazines for a build they plan for their 18th birthday and a relative up to date with current legislation regarding legal ownership of firearms and accesories. Firstly, there is no minimum age limit for purchasing, receiving or possessing magazines. So theoretically it is completely possible for a grandfather to give his 12yr old grandson a high cap mag before the ban and it is just as legal for a 16yr old to have bought a high cap mag before the ban. Secondly, PC 12020(a)(2) states, "Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine." Please note that possession is not banned, remember this isn't a loop hole, this is put into place for the simple sake of protecting those who legally owned the mags prior to year 2000. Quoted:
I'm not quite clear how the Penal Code cited explains how it is legal to rebuild a 11+ capacity magazine using new parts but I do know ownership must have taken place before 1/1/00 and once they leave the state they cannot come back in but that's not my question. Attn Gen. Bill Locklyer answered all questions about rebuilding legally owned hi caps in a letter in late 2005, written to him by whom I believe was Gene Hoffman who is now the President of the Calguns Foundation: http://www.freewebs.com/gunfacts/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf. The law is also very clear that legally owned hi caps possessed in the state of California may leave and return to the state provided they are in fact legally owned hi caps. To be honest I wouldn't play that game considering the importing is banned. Quoted:
Law doesnt say you can't own, repair or use them Correct but the law very much says how you may use them. Penal Code 12276.1 (a)(2) states that an Assault Weapon is a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. Penal Code 12276.1 (a)(5) states that an Assault Weapon is a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. |
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What it really comes down to is that magazines don't have serial numbers so it would be almost impossible for the state to prove when the magt was made or when you got it. I guess in theory you could buy all the parts needed to make a 30 round mag and be w/ in the law, but as soon as you put it together you have comitted a felony. But again, there are no serial numbers so it would be hard for them to PROVE you just made it, but then again, they could show a jury that you are say 21 and just bought all the parts to build a 30 rounder and now you have one and leave it up to them to decide. So, proceed w/ caution.
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I will be travelling back to Texas on business again in a couple weeks, and was cooking up an idea that I think may be clear and OK legally, but wanted to see if others agree. Suppose I purchase a few 30 round P-mags and convert them to 10/30 configuration in my hotel room, using 3/8´aluminum rod, 1/8” pins and 2-part epoxy, and mail them to my house back in Kali either reassembled in their new configuration or still broken down into parts. This should be GTG regardless of hi-cap possession before 1/1/2000, no?
RV |
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My understanding of the law states you can buy the magazine and mail the pieces to your home in California IF you legally own any 30 round magazines in need of repair.
So according to the penal codes sited as well as the flow chart which allows an individual to determine if they on a California legal Assualt Rifle it would be legal to use a 20 or 30 round magazine they owned before 1/1/00 with a rifle manufactured by a company not listed in Appendix B and not be committing a felony. It is also legal to replace all damaged parts of the magazine with newly manufactured parts. Is this a correct interpretation of the law? I owned magazines before the ban and would like to know if I can use them with my new Noveske without breaking any laws. |
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I remember back in 1998, when I was 14. Buying a couple of thirty round mags for my 10/22, and my old man giving me 10 mags for a AR. Then I moved out of state in 2004 for a year left the mags with my brother "but still mine, with my stuff" now I am back.. So I have broke no Laws and enjoy my 10+ mags.
This is what really happened so anything is possible. |
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Quoted:
What it really comes down to is that magazines don't have serial numbers so it would be almost impossible for the state to prove when the mag was made or when you got it. All they need to prove is beyond a reasonable doubt, they don't need the 100% correct story. If you place an order over your computer, it saves in the registry. Hitting the delete button doesn't really delete. Acquiring a magazine for a firearm that wasn't made until after 2001 is pretty conclusive. If you have been going to a local shooting range with 10rd mags for a couple years and then leave for a Vegas vacation and come back home and wala you bring high caps with you to the range that is IMO probable cause to believe you illegally imported them. Quoted:
I guess in theory you could buy all the parts needed to make a 30 round mag and be w/ in the law, but as soon as you put it together you have comitted a felony. It is as clear as glass. Quoted:
But again, there are no serial numbers so it would be hard for them to PROVE you just made it, but then again, they could show a jury that you are say 21 and just bought all the parts to build a 30 rounder and now you have one and leave it up to them to decide. So, proceed w/ caution. Forget about serial numbers, don't break the law. And they don't have to prove you did it, they just have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that is a big difference. And there is no age limit to buying magazines. Quoted:
I will be travelling back to Texas on business again in a couple weeks, and was cooking up an idea that I think may be clear and OK legally, but wanted to see if others agree. Suppose I purchase a few 30 round P-mags and convert them to 10/30 configuration in my hotel room, using 3/8´aluminum rod, 1/8” pins and 2-part epoxy, and mail them to my house back in Kali either reassembled in their new configuration or still broken down into parts. This should be GTG regardless of hi-cap possession before 1/1/2000, no? RV The DOJ specifically states that the alteration must be permanent. With that being said, what does it matter? If you are truly building 10 rounders it won't matter. If you aren't, then sending them in pieces to be assembled later it is a crime, and sending them whole from Texas is a crime. Quoted:
My understanding of the law states you can buy the magazine and mail the pieces to your home in California IF you legally own any 30 round magazines in need of repair. That was the purpose of the law. There is nothing that states that you must use them for pre-ban rebuilding or that you must have pre-bans. Quoted:
So according to the penal codes sited as well as the flow chart which allows an individual to determine if they on a California legal Assualt Rifle it would be legal to use a 20 or 30 round magazine they owned before 1/1/00 with a rifle manufactured by a company not listed in Appendix B and not be committing a felony. It is also legal to replace all damaged parts of the magazine with newly manufactured parts. Is this a correct interpretation of the law? I owned magazines before the ban and would like to know if I can use them with my new Noveske without breaking any laws. You can only use them on registered Assault Weapons or featureless rifles. If you put those mags in a magazaine locked firearm in is illegal. So lose the mag lock and the evil features, the MonsterMan Grips are the most popular followed by the U15 stock.Penal Code 12276.1 (a)(2) states that an Assault Weapon is a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. Penal Code 12276.1 (a)(5) states that an Assault Weapon is a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. |
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My understanding of the law states you can buy the magazine and mail the pieces to your home in California IF you legally own any 30 round magazines in need of repair. That was the purpose of the law. There is nothing that states that you must use them for pre-ban rebuilding or that you must have pre-bans. This leads me to believe it is ok to purchase the required parts of a high capacity magazine and build it and be legal in California. If nothing states they must be used to rebuild an existing magazine, the burden of proof is on the State, and I don't have to even own pre-ban magazines in order to rebuild one. I guess I couldn't use these with my Noveske (off the list) rifle could I? This is all very helpful Josh. I'm glad someone here is willing to take the time and outline it so well. I couldn't find anything on this topic on calguns, arfcom, glocktalk or other gun forums. This is making me want to sell my rifle. depressing. |
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This leads me to believe it is ok to purchase the required parts of a high capacity magazine and build it and be legal in California. Build what? If your building a high capacity mag that that is a violation of PC 12020 - manufacturing a high capacity magazine. The punishment really isn't worth it. Quoted:
If nothing states they must be used to rebuild an existing magazine, the burden of proof is on the State, and I don't have to even own pre-ban magazines in order to rebuild one. As I said above putting together a rebuild kit in California is illegal if it isn't for a pre-ban mag. You can own rebuild kits for legal purposes which are rebuilding them from legal hi caps, building them into 10rd mags, or keep them disassembled (for out of state purposes). Quoted:
I guess I couldn't use these with my Noveske (off the list) rifle could I? It is really a simple reconfiguration. 1) Replace the pistol grip with a MonsterMan grip 2) Remove flash hider or replace with compensator 3) Remove vertical foregrip (if applies) 4) Replace retractable stock with fixed stock (if applies) You can now use detachable mags and if you own them, high capacity pre-ban mags. |
| So owning the pieces to assemble a high capacity magazine isn't the same as owning parts to assemble a SBR? I see them as similar actions to commit felonys. I'll have to look into a monster man grip, see how comfortable it is to shoot and if it's worth it or else I might try and trade these for some more 10 round magazines or mail them out of state. |
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So owning the pieces to assemble a high capacity magazine isn't the same as owning parts to assemble a SBR? Apples and oranges, both the federal government and California consider a short barreled rifle to include a receiver and s under 16'' barrel, assembled or not. This is called constructive possession. The federal government couldn't care less about our magazine limits. The California government does not have constructive possession for magazines or (assualt weapons). |
tl;dr im 28. i HAD 4 30 rnd mags given to me, shooting bag with a bunch of stuff a long time ago. i found the bag in my grandmothers garage after she died, and founf by shooting bag, minus rifles, my dad still has them. all mags are gone but one. ive owned it before the ban i guess, so can dig up my 30 and go to a range and it not be illegal in anyway? is my mag exempt?
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Quoted: Now there you go again picking on the 21 year olds. Dad could have purchased mags for a new born, who rightfully owns them, prior to 2000.Quoted: I've seen pictures of guys living in the PRK with 30 round PMAGs. I know some might be pinned and only hold 10 rounds but I have seen guys buying rebuild kits. My question is how do you show you rebuilt a magazine you previously owned with a PMAG body and later installed a new follower and spring and legally use this in an AR? How do you prove you rebuilt the magazine instead of buying one and bringing it across? Also I read on calguns that you CAN'T use a magazine with 11+ round capacity on a gun with a bullet button, is that correct? I'll let the district attorney prove that I didn't have an existing magazine that I rebuilt. It's impossible to prove that I did not possess the magazines prior to the morning of January 1, 2000. Now find a 21 year old guy and the effort becomes a bit more easy. Yes, the bullet button allows you to use evil features like a pistol grip with 10 round magazines. The MonsterMan grip allows the use of no evil features and normal magazines. It really affects anyone born after 2000. |
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tl;dr im 28. i HAD 4 30 rnd mags given to me, shooting bag with a bunch of stuff a long time ago. i found the bag in my grandmothers garage after she died, and founf by shooting bag, minus rifles, my dad still has them. all mags are gone but one. ive owned it before the ban i guess, so can dig up my 30 and go to a range and it not be illegal in anyway? is my mag exempt?My understanding of this is you can use a datachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds in a rifle with the monster man grip. If the rifle is considered a fixed magazine rifle you CANNOT USE more than a 10 round magazine. |
| These mag rebuild threads are fun to read. I wouldn't take "no constructive possession" to the bank...it's just a legal argument. that being said the hi cap mag law is not easy to enforce, there are lawful uses for magazine parts, etc. On the other hand, if you've got a functional USGI mag but you want a Pmag instead, is it ok to replace all the parts of the USGI mag? Who knows and it probably doesn't matter anyway because this stupid law is unenforceable. |
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tl;dr im 28. i HAD 4 30 rnd mags given to me, shooting bag with a bunch of stuff a long time ago. i found the bag in my grandmothers garage after she died, and founf by shooting bag, minus rifles, my dad still has them. all mags are gone but one. ive owned it before the ban i guess, so can dig up my 30 and go to a range and it not be illegal in anyway? is my mag exempt?My understanding of this is you can use a datachable magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds in a rifle with the monster man grip. If the rifle is considered a fixed magazine rifle you CANNOT USE more than a 10 round magazine. yeah its all coming back to me now. theres so many dumb ass rules here. im not putting monsterman grips on my rifle. i live with the bullet button that takes me .5 seconds longer in a magswap. even though i would neve do a tactical bullet button reload omg is californiaman watching |