Posted: 2/20/2015 12:24:12 AM EDT
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I'm a Marine stationed in California, the family lives in Missouri and has an NFA trust. I'm trying to find a DD dealer to transfer an M203 in the Springfield area. Does anyone know a dealer who can/will do the transfer? |
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My understanding is that Large Bore DDs(Streatsweepers, 20mms, M203s, RPG-7s, etc) are fine, but explosive/incendiary DD's(Grenades, fire bombs, pipe bombs are not, but it's too early for me to go track down the statue backing that up. I also suspect any state level restrictions have a pretty strong legal argument against them under our amended state constitution, same can be said for concealed carry permit requirements. |
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Quoted:
My understanding is that Large Bore DDs(Streatsweepers, 20mms, M203s, RPG-7s, etc) are fine, but explosive/incendiary DD's(Grenades, fire bombs, pipe bombs are not, but it's too early for me to go track down the statue backing that up. I also suspect any state level restrictions have a pretty strong legal argument against them under our amended state constitution, same can be said for concealed carry permit requirements. *********************************************** Quoted from the statutes... Possession--manufacture--transport--repair--sale of certain weapons acrime--exceptions--penalties. 571.020. 1. A person commits a crime if such person knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (1) An explosive weapon; (2) An explosive, incendiary or poison substance or material with the purpose to possess, manufacture or sell an explosive weapon; (3) A gas gun; (4) A bullet or projectile which explodes or detonates upon impact because of an independent explosive charge after having been shot from a firearm; or (5) Knuckles; or ("snip") 2. A person does not commit a crime pursuant to this section if his conduct involved any of the items in subdivisions (1) to (5) of subsection 1, the item was possessed in conformity with any applicable federal law, and the conduct: (1) Was incident to the performance of official duty by the Armed Forces, National Guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a penal institution; or (2) Was incident to engaging in a lawful commercial or business transaction with an organization enumerated in subdivision (1) of this section; or (3) Was incident to using an explosive weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful industrial or commercial enterprise; or (4) Was incident to displaying the weapon in a public museum or exhibition; or (5) Was incident to using the weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance. Link from which the quote above came... ************************************************ I just finished skimming through 571 again for info on destructive devices. I try to keep track, but it seems maybe I've missed this to. The "above .50 caliber language" is gone. According to the above, it appears that DD's are ok now (except explosive DD's) as long as you're in compliance with federal law. Thoughts? edit: because I read it again 
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Quoted:
*********************************************** Quoted from the statutes... Possession--manufacture--transport--repair--sale of certain weapons acrime--exceptions--penalties. 571.020. 1. A person commits a crime if such person knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (1) An explosive weapon; (2) An explosive, incendiary or poison substance or material with the purpose to possess, manufacture or sell an explosive weapon; (3) A gas gun; (4) A bullet or projectile which explodes or detonates upon impact because of an independent explosive charge after having been shot from a firearm; or (5) Knuckles; or ("snip") 2. A person does not commit a crime pursuant to this section if his conduct involved any of the items in subdivisions (1) to (5) of subsection 1, the item was possessed in conformity with any applicable federal law, and the conduct: (1) Was incident to the performance of official duty by the Armed Forces, National Guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a penal institution; or (2) Was incident to engaging in a lawful commercial or business transaction with an organization enumerated in subdivision (1) of this section; or (3) Was incident to using an explosive weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful industrial or commercial enterprise; or (4) Was incident to displaying the weapon in a public museum or exhibition; or (5) Was incident to using the weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance. Link from which the quote above came... ************************************************ I just finished skimming through 571 again for info on destructive devices. I try to keep track, but it seems maybe I've missed this to. The "above .50 caliber language" is gone. According to the above, it appears that DD's are ok now (except explosive DD's) as long as you're in compliance with federal law. Thoughts? edit: because I read it again Quoted:
Quoted:
My understanding is that Large Bore DDs(Streatsweepers, 20mms, M203s, RPG-7s, etc) are fine, but explosive/incendiary DD's(Grenades, fire bombs, pipe bombs are not, but it's too early for me to go track down the statue backing that up. I also suspect any state level restrictions have a pretty strong legal argument against them under our amended state constitution, same can be said for concealed carry permit requirements. *********************************************** Quoted from the statutes... Possession--manufacture--transport--repair--sale of certain weapons acrime--exceptions--penalties. 571.020. 1. A person commits a crime if such person knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (1) An explosive weapon; (2) An explosive, incendiary or poison substance or material with the purpose to possess, manufacture or sell an explosive weapon; (3) A gas gun; (4) A bullet or projectile which explodes or detonates upon impact because of an independent explosive charge after having been shot from a firearm; or (5) Knuckles; or ("snip") 2. A person does not commit a crime pursuant to this section if his conduct involved any of the items in subdivisions (1) to (5) of subsection 1, the item was possessed in conformity with any applicable federal law, and the conduct: (1) Was incident to the performance of official duty by the Armed Forces, National Guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a penal institution; or (2) Was incident to engaging in a lawful commercial or business transaction with an organization enumerated in subdivision (1) of this section; or (3) Was incident to using an explosive weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful industrial or commercial enterprise; or (4) Was incident to displaying the weapon in a public museum or exhibition; or (5) Was incident to using the weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance. Link from which the quote above came... ************************************************ I just finished skimming through 571 again for info on destructive devices. I try to keep track, but it seems maybe I've missed this to. The "above .50 caliber language" is gone. According to the above, it appears that DD's are ok now (except explosive DD's) as long as you're in compliance with federal law. Thoughts? edit: because I read it again I think speaking to a MO lawyer very familiar with NFA laws would be OPs best bet right now. And report back, I'm curious about all this too. |
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Anyone know of a good NFA lawyer that I could call? I'm searching online, but can't really find anything. ETA: Reading the statutes, I came across this in the definition section: (7) "Explosive weapon", any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb or similar device designed or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death, serious physical injury, or substantial property damage; or any device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon. For the purposes of this subdivision, the term "explosive" shall mean any chemical compound mixture or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion, including but not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cords, igniter cords, and igniters or blasting agents; Combined with this: 571.020. 1. A person commits a crime if such person knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells: (1) An explosive weapon So I guess shooting chalk rounds out of an M203 is out of the question   |
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Quoted: I know of at least one Registered M203 and 2 Registered M79's in Missouri. And no, I don't know how they pulled it off. The last time I checked there were no Class 10 DD Dealers in Missouri. |
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The 203 receiver transfers as a title 1 weapon... BUT if you put a 37mm Smoothbore on it, it is a non gun.
The Barrel does not transfer on ANY title, if you bought the receiver on a Title 1 (Other) or as a regular rifle... then you want to put a 40mm Barrel on it (Rifled 40mm 203 barrel) then you would have to do a FORM 1 to build it then when you got your stamp back you would have a DD. As far as I am aware LBDD is a no go in MO. I would love to have one and Chalk Rounds to go with it. Would be fun. Will keep an eye on this thread for academic purposes of course.... An LMT factory M203 is around 1800 NEW and transferrable... Most of the recievers worth a crap are around $1500 you do the math... I also know where a Couple Registered Transferrable RPG-7s are... Price is only SLIGHTLY negotiable on them... |
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Quoted: The units I'm referring to are 40mm, I fired orange talc practice grenades out of the M203 It CAN be done, I'm a former Class III and I THOUGHT I knew NFA law, but this one baffles me.  Edit: Any idea if calling an ATF examiner would help clear this up? |
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Quoted:
Does the ATF disapprove a FORM 1 for something that can't be made in state (aka, doing a Form 1 for an SBR in california), or are they only responsible for Federal law? Could it be that the ATF just doesn't realize that DDs are a no-go in Missouri due to how the law is written, and approved Form 1's for the M203/M79? I've read everything I can find on this stuff, and i just get more and more confused.
Edit: Any idea if calling an ATF examiner would help clear this up? Quoted:
Quoted:
The units I'm referring to are 40mm, I fired orange talc practice grenades out of the M203
It CAN be done, I'm a former Class III and I THOUGHT I knew NFA law, but this one baffles me.
Edit: Any idea if calling an ATF examiner would help clear this up? No the ATF will NOT approve something not allowed in state, Unless they screw up but then if they do it falls on you not ATF as always, I am a former 07/02 SOT That is a manufacturer of NFA items, I.e. Machineguns, Suppressors, SBR, SBS, LBDD etc. as an 07/02 SOT I could have happily built all the Silencers and Grenade Launchers and so forth that I wanted to, but I would not be able to sell any in MO except to LE or .MIL. Best Bet is to consult someone other than ARFCOM or BATFE, like a lawyer versed in NFA law. since this changes almost hourly anymore that is rather difficult. The Silencer Law changed just before I got out of the business. |
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It had been awhile since I looked at the statutes but last week I was bored and checked them out again. It seems that there was some slight wording changes made.
Since MO law doesn't mirror federal law in it's definitions I decided to contact the AG's office to get their determination on whether a grenade launcher is legal in Missouri. I sent the email earlier this week and haven't received a reply yet. If and when I do I will post up the response. Since DD's have to transfer through a rare SOT holder the easiest way is to get a title 1 receiver and then form 1 it and buy the 40mm barrel after approval. |
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Response from the AG's office:
Thank you for your inquiry. Attorney General Koster has asked that I respond. Missouri law defines an “explosive weapon” as “any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb or similar device designed or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death, serious physical injury, or substantial property damage; or any device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon. For the purposes of this subdivision, the term "explosive" shall mean any chemical compound mixture or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion, including but not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cords, igniter cords, and igniters or blasting agents.” http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000101.html Missouri law makes it a crime if a person “knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells” an “explosive weapon.” However, there are some exceptions to this provided in subsection two. http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000201.html Unfortunately, I cannot provide you with a legal opinion on whether a specific device qualifies as an “explosive weapon.” You may wish to contact a private attorney for a legal opinion. Please let me know if we may be of any further assistance. So in trying to determine if a grenade launcher meets the Missouri definition of an "explosive weapon" the AG's office suggests consulting a private attorney for their legal opinion. If I find one that says yes would that satisfy the ATF in regards to MO ownership? |
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I (after making numerous phone calls) got a call back from the ATF branch in Springfield. I talked to him for 7-8 minutes, and he told me that it is 100% legal to own an M203/M79/40mm launcher in Missouri, as long as it is registered (and I specifically asked about a Form 1). I tried to talk to an examiner at the ATF to find out if they would actually approve a Form 1 stamp, but they wouldn't let me talk to anyone and directed me to call the Springfield branch. So, we've got the Missouri AG telling us they can't tell you if its actually legal, and an ATF branch in MO saying that they are legal.  Yay government. |
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Response from the AG's office: Thank you for your inquiry. Attorney General Koster has asked that I respond. Missouri law defines an “explosive weapon” as “any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb or similar device designed or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death, serious physical injury, or substantial property damage; or any device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon. For the purposes of this subdivision, the term "explosive" shall mean any chemical compound mixture or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion, including but not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cords, igniter cords, and igniters or blasting agents.” http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000101.html Missouri law makes it a crime if a person “knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells” an “explosive weapon.” However, there are some exceptions to this provided in subsection two. http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000201.html Unfortunately, I cannot provide you with a legal opinion on whether a specific device qualifies as an “explosive weapon.” You may wish to contact a private attorney for a legal opinion. Please let me know if we may be of any further assistance. So in trying to determine if a grenade launcher meets the Missouri definition of an "explosive weapon" the AG's office suggests consulting a private attorney for their legal opinion. If I find one that says yes would that satisfy the ATF in regards to MO ownership? To me, it's fairly crystal clear that it's illegal per this statute. The AG doesn't know, the ATF says it's ok, and anyone could reasonably interpret that it is illegal. 
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Quoted:
I (after making numerous phone calls) got a call back from the ATF branch in Springfield. I talked to him for 7-8 minutes, and he told me that it is 100% legal to own an M203/M79/40mm launcher in Missouri, as long as it is registered (and I specifically asked about a Form 1). I tried to talk to an examiner at the ATF to find out if they would actually approve a Form 1 stamp, but they wouldn't let me talk to anyone and directed me to call the Springfield branch. So, we've got the Missouri AG telling us they can't tell you if its actually legal, and an ATF branch in MO saying that they are legal. Yay government.
O.K., from 14 years experience as a Class III Dealer. ONLY talk to NFA Branch on Title II weapons. You can call ten field offices and get ten different answers. I'm truly inclined to believe it's LEGAL to possess a 40mm launcher in Missouri. |
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Quoted: O.K., from 14 years experience as a Class III Dealer. ONLY talk to NFA Branch on Title II weapons. You can call ten field offices and get ten different answers. I'm truly inclined to believe it's LEGAL to possess a 40mm launcher in Missouri. Quoted: Quoted: I (after making numerous phone calls) got a call back from the ATF branch in Springfield. I talked to him for 7-8 minutes, and he told me that it is 100% legal to own an M203/M79/40mm launcher in Missouri, as long as it is registered (and I specifically asked about a Form 1). I tried to talk to an examiner at the ATF to find out if they would actually approve a Form 1 stamp, but they wouldn't let me talk to anyone and directed me to call the Springfield branch. So, we've got the Missouri AG telling us they can't tell you if its actually legal, and an ATF branch in MO saying that they are legal. Yay government.O.K., from 14 years experience as a Class III Dealer. ONLY talk to NFA Branch on Title II weapons. You can call ten field offices and get ten different answers. I'm truly inclined to believe it's LEGAL to possess a 40mm launcher in Missouri. I'm almost at the point of giving up. What I keep coming back to, is what is the difference in a 37mm Havoc, or a Havoc with a smooth bore 40mm barrel (per the statute definition)? The smooth bore isn't designed to shoot any of the military rounds because there isn't any rifling. I keep searching for a lawyer with NFA experience in Missouri, but can't seem to find any. If I could, I'd just call and ask them. |
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Quoted:
To me, it's fairly crystal clear that it's illegal per this statute. The AG doesn't know, the ATF says it's ok, and anyone could reasonably interpret that it is illegal. Quoted:
Quoted:
Response from the AG's office: Thank you for your inquiry. Attorney General Koster has asked that I respond. Missouri law defines an “explosive weapon” as “any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb or similar device designed or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death, serious physical injury, or substantial property damage; or any device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon. For the purposes of this subdivision, the term "explosive" shall mean any chemical compound mixture or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion, including but not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cords, igniter cords, and igniters or blasting agents.” http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000101.html Missouri law makes it a crime if a person “knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells” an “explosive weapon.” However, there are some exceptions to this provided in subsection two. http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000201.html Unfortunately, I cannot provide you with a legal opinion on whether a specific device qualifies as an “explosive weapon.” You may wish to contact a private attorney for a legal opinion. Please let me know if we may be of any further assistance. So in trying to determine if a grenade launcher meets the Missouri definition of an "explosive weapon" the AG's office suggests consulting a private attorney for their legal opinion. If I find one that says yes would that satisfy the ATF in regards to MO ownership? To me, it's fairly crystal clear that it's illegal per this statute. The AG doesn't know, the ATF says it's ok, and anyone could reasonably interpret that it is illegal. That sure is clear. Until you factor in that under State law any HE shell that could be used in a grenade launcher is illegal as it falls under the "explosive" definition. Since you cannot legally use a grenade launcher to launch explosives in Missouri the device must be adapted for other uses, namely flares, chalk and other non-explosive projectiles. That would make it seem as if it were legal. Of course the easiest thing would be for the legislature to change the definition to simply mirror federal law regarding DD's like it has with all other NFA items. |
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Quoted: That sure is clear. Until you factor in that under State law any HE shell that could be used in a grenade launcher is illegal as it falls under the "explosive" definition. Since you cannot legally use a grenade launcher to launch explosives in Missouri the device must be adapted for other uses, namely flares, chalk and other non-explosive projectiles. That would make it seem as if it were legal. Of course the easiest thing would be for the legislature to change the definition to simply mirror federal law regarding DD's like it has with all other NFA items. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Response from the AG's office: Thank you for your inquiry. Attorney General Koster has asked that I respond. Missouri law defines an "explosive weapon” as "any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb or similar device designed or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death, serious physical injury, or substantial property damage; or any device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon. For the purposes of this subdivision, the term "explosive" shall mean any chemical compound mixture or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion, including but not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cords, igniter cords, and igniters or blasting agents.” http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000101.html Missouri law makes it a crime if a person "knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells” an "explosive weapon.” However, there are some exceptions to this provided in subsection two. http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100000201.html Unfortunately, I cannot provide you with a legal opinion on whether a specific device qualifies as an "explosive weapon.” You may wish to contact a private attorney for a legal opinion. Please let me know if we may be of any further assistance. So in trying to determine if a grenade launcher meets the Missouri definition of an "explosive weapon" the AG's office suggests consulting a private attorney for their legal opinion. If I find one that says yes would that satisfy the ATF in regards to MO ownership? To me, it's fairly crystal clear that it's illegal per this statute. The AG doesn't know, the ATF says it's ok, and anyone could reasonably interpret that it is illegal. That sure is clear. Until you factor in that under State law any HE shell that could be used in a grenade launcher is illegal as it falls under the "explosive" definition. Since you cannot legally use a grenade launcher to launch explosives in Missouri the device must be adapted for other uses, namely flares, chalk and other non-explosive projectiles. That would make it seem as if it were legal. Of course the easiest thing would be for the legislature to change the definition to simply mirror federal law regarding DD's like it has with all other NFA items. |
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Here's the reply I received from the lawyer I spoke to: BTooneUSMMA: I would defer to the word of the ATFE, as they are the entity that regulates those items. I would call the field office back and ask for a citation of the applicable law that substantiates their opinion. Best case scenario, they send you something written on their letterhead that states those items are legal for you to own in Missouri. I am not an expert on the finer points of the National Firearms Act, so I would not be able to give you an answer to your questions. If there is anything I can do to help you I would be happy to, but I try to stay in my lane when it comes to this kind of thing. Again, do not hesitate to contact me with any further questions. I emailed this lawyer in particular due to them specifically advertising NFA Trusts. So I guess I'm going to try to get something in writing from either the Springfield Office, the NFA branch, or both (and probably get 2 different answers in that case). |
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Quoted:
Here's the reply I received from the lawyer I spoke to: BTooneUSMMA: I would defer to the word of the ATFE, as they are the entity that regulates those items. I would call the field office back and ask for a citation of the applicable law that substantiates their opinion. Best case scenario, they send you something written on their letterhead that states those items are legal for you to own in Missouri. I am not an expert on the finer points of the National Firearms Act, so I would not be able to give you an answer to your questions. If there is anything I can do to help you I would be happy to, but I try to stay in my lane when it comes to this kind of thing. Again, do not hesitate to contact me with any further questions. I emailed this lawyer in particular due to them specifically advertising NFA Trusts. So I guess I'm going to try to get something in writing from either the Springfield Office, the NFA branch, or both (and probably get 2 different answers in that case). That would be as good as it gets. But let's not forget that they like to change their minds, a la Sig brace. |
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Well, I called the Springfield Office, and talked to someone who told me that, again, 40mm launchers are completely legal in MO if they are registered. I asked if he could tell the statutes he is using for that judgment, and if they would write me a letter on their letterhead stating such. He said that they were referencing 571.xxx (same ones quoted in this thread), but that I would need to write the NFA branch to get a letter. So I called the Kansas City Branch. The lady I talked to initially told me that mirrors federal law, and that it was legal. I again asked about the statutes, she put me on hold. About 5 min later, she told me 'they' had referenced 571.xxx, it reads differently than federal law, and it's illegal to own a 40mm launcher. I asked if you could own a smooth-bored 40mm launcher (I still think you could argue a smooth-bore is legal) designed to shoot non destructive rounds, and she said she didn't see how there would be a difference. I skipped asking about the letter, and have decided to give up on the whole endeavor. So, anyone own a 37mm Havoc, and shoot homemade chalk out of it? Any fun at all? |
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Quoted: I'm still tempted to get a Title I M203 and send in a Form 1 to see if it will fly. What's the worst they could do, revoke my stamp?  I considered the same thing initially just to see if it would get approved (and I have a feeling it would), but wouldn't you still be in violation of state law? AKA, they could seize your shit and send you to jail if they wanted? Edit: I'm not suggesting/condoning/planning on attempting to get a stamp for a 40mm launcher. According to (some) elements of the ATF, you shouldn't either. |
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I tried to ask the Chief law enforcement officer of the State as to the legality of a device. They refused to offer guidance. If nothing else I would hope that it showed good faith effort to comply with the law since it would be registered prior to actually putting it together.
If they took it after that I would be pretty comfortable taking it to trial. |
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Quoted: I tried to ask the Chief law enforcement officer of the State as to the legality of a device. They refused to offer guidance. If nothing else I would hope that it showed good faith effort to comply with the law since it would be registered prior to actually putting it together. If they took it after that I would be pretty comfortable taking it to trial. |
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Curiously this was the first thing I thought of this morning.
Step 1: Acquire the launcher receiver without a barrel as a title 1 firearm. Step 2: Submit form 1 to manufacture a DD with the ATF. Since I am now the manufacturer of record for the receiver, my design and intent is what matters relating to the legality of Missouri statute. Since the state of Missouri does not allow 'explosive weapons', and I have no intent of using my launcher for any illegal purposes ( as shown by attempting full compliance) and my design is for a launcher of all things non-explosive (Surely the end use changes the design  ), then I do not see why a grenade launcher built on a form 1 would not comply with both state and Federal law.
Step 3: Receive approval, order barrel, have fun with flares and chalk from my new fun dispenser. EDIT: I was wrong up above as I thought the specific statute read as designed and intended. The pertinent part for this discussion is or any device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon. regarding the definition of 'explosive weapon'. I believe that the highlighted section of the statute is completely untenable in regards to a grenade launcher. If it is the state's position that a grenade launcher is a device designed or adapted for delivering or shooting such a weapon, then every AR pattern rifle with a standard A2 flash hider and many other styles of firearms fit the definition just as well due to the possibility of firing 22mm rifle grenades from them. The law as written is overly broad and encompasses nearly every modern firearm that has a STANAG compatible 22mm muzzle device. I think I may just push this issue and see where it goes. Anyone want to come along?
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