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Posted: 4/27/2011 8:05:25 AM EDT
I know from the shoot this weekend some where interested in that group buy.  it started today: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=835068&page=4  end of page 4
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 8:29:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2011 8:29:20 AM EDT by AFSOC]
Meh... You can get just as good for less and equal for less.
Just have to shop around.
Want to impress me?

Find me IIIA BALCS panels for LESS than $339 shipped...
Go on I dare ya!
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 10:59:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Meh... You can get just as good for less and equal for less.
Just have to shop around.
Want to impress me?

Find me IIIA BALCS panels for LESS than $339 shipped...
Go on I dare ya!


so are you saying not to get these plates because they are to expensive and you can get those other places for less and even better than those. I had planned on getting a set and I just want to make sure I am not making a  mistake

Link Posted: 4/27/2011 12:00:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2011 12:03:12 PM EDT by Reaperatm]
I would like to know as well, i was considering whether or not I should sell my Beretta 92 w/ns to fund a pair.

i am in need of an armor set up, decisions decisions



ETA:  I also thought the "great deal" on these is that they are lvl4 and so you save weight by not needing plate backers?

Originally Posted By Fantomas:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Meh... You can get just as good for less and equal for less.
Just have to shop around.
Want to impress me?

Find me IIIA BALCS panels for LESS than $339 shipped...
Go on I dare ya!


so are you saying not to get these plates because they are to expensive and you can get those other places for less and even better than those. I had planned on getting a set and I just want to make sure I am not making a  mistake



Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:08:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2011 2:10:42 PM EDT by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:27:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
The problem with ceramic Level 4 plates is they're kinda heavy and rather fragile.  Also ask yourself if there's ever any real chance of you coming up against real AP ammo and needing that AP-rating.  FTR, M855/SS109 is NOT armor piercing ammo and most all Level 3 plates will defeat that round and any normal rifle round up to just shy of AP rounds.  

Sure there's plenty of old M2AP .30/06 ammo out there on gunshow tables.  But homie don't shoot .30/06.  Homie generally shoots 7,62x39 & sometimes 5,56x45.  Cops don't even get AP ammo.  They have no need for it and generally their dept lawyers don't want that level of liability.  Guess what, if several shots to the perp's COM don't stop him, move your POA.  Outside of .mil scenarios, you're just not that likely to ever face true AP rounds.  A lot of Level 3 plates, with a nice 3A backer, will catch the M2AP round even though they're not rated to do so.  

Even the affordable ($140 shipped for a pair & a cheap carrier)  Serbian "Level 3" plates that are such a bargain on eBay these days have been proven to catch the M2AP round.  That is, if the plates ever actually arrive here.  

Also available on eBay are the Level 3 TAP plates for ~$240-260/pair shipped that get really good reviews from DocGKR.
 


thanks for the info much appreciated.

Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:33:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2011 2:35:25 PM EDT by Reaperatm]
Eric I would agree about the AP, probably don't need it. My line of thinking was is it worth to have Lvl 4 plates because of the weight savings? versus the heavy combo of Lvl 3 plus plate backers. If I can shave a few pounds it might be worth the extra $
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:36:08 PM EDT
you can get level 3 + 5.5 pound plates for 238 a set, front and back on ebay. or like Eric said the serb plates, if they ever get here.....30 days my ass.

but i think every body should have armor.

Ronald
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 7:35:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2011 4:52:03 AM EDT by eric10mm]
What you SERIOUSLY need to address is the nature of your perceived threat.


What sort of Threat are you most likely to face?


Pistol, Handgun?


Rifle? Shotgun?


The VAST majority of Civilian Users of body armor will benefit far more from soft Level IIIA armor than HARD armor


If you need or want hard plates what is your most likely threat?


One Round of M2AP? or Multiple Rounds of 7.62x39 Ball? 5.45x39? 5.56x45? M80 Ball?


What Weight? What Plate?


The Boron Carbide plates mentioned weigh what? 5.6# and are SINGLE HIT rated not MULTI HIT RATED


Bulletproofme.com has Level IV Stand Alone Plates for $240 that are multi hit and weigh 6#


MOST ALL Ceramic plates are made from Aluminum Oxide





You can buy TAP GAMMA III Plates that are NIJ 04 III+ for $119 shipped if you look around.


Level IV (M2 AP) in conjunction with IIIA Soft Backing.


7.5#


10”x12”





Level III+ Stand Alone


5.5#


10x12 Gunfighter Cut

















You are FAR more likely to face a handgun than a rifle


IIIA is the Best you will find for that threat.


These panels and the Above Plates weigh 17.5 pounds


11 pounds of that is JUST THE PLATES


the remaining 6.5 pounds is the soft armor and carrier.








along with the Eagle Low Visibility Armor Carrier





With the EAGLE/SKD PHUTV (Modified)








Dyneema plates can be had but they are expensive but weigh half as much.


I will take the III+ Multi Hit Plates for $240 Shipped (for a pair) in pockets in one week over the 4 month out Single hit $275 (each) Plates


I like SKD and do as you will just like a Botac thread...


Granite Armor has the III+ plate for $189 and these sold originally at $899 each...






 
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 4:58:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2011 5:01:11 AM EDT by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 6:28:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rmdye:
you can get level 3 + 5.5 pound plates for 238 a set, front and back on ebay. or like Eric said the serb plates, if they ever get here.....30 days my ass.

but i think every body should have armor.

Ronald


They get here but it's more like 45 days.

Link Posted: 4/28/2011 4:26:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2011 4:34:36 PM EDT by Reaperatm]
AFSOC, my intent for armor will be for SHTF use, i plan on using SKDs PIG PLATE CARRIER with the molle cumberbund, still haven't decided if i want OD or MULTICAM yet though.  

I want to be able to protect against at LEAST M855, i'd really prefer to be able to protect against 7.62 AP ammo but its not really a need, just a want

My goal will be to keep it light but effective, and i don't mind spending the money on the Dyneema plate backers from SKD either but it doesn't list a weight.


what would be your opinion on this?






ETA: Any got a link for the serbian plates?
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 4:58:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reaperatm:
AFSOC, my intent for armor will be for SHTF use, i plan on using SKDs PIG PLATE CARRIER with the molle cumberbund, still haven't decided if i want OD or MULTICAM yet though.  

I want to be able to protect against at LEAST M855, i'd really prefer to be able to protect against 7.62 AP ammo but its not really a need, just a want

My goal will be to keep it light but effective, and i don't mind spending the money on the Dyneema plate backers from SKD either but it doesn't list a weight.


what would be your opinion on this?


Dyneema Plates are OK but Soft Armor not so much. You REALLY should read Doctor Gary K Roberts' pubs on testing armor
Lightfighter.net has some, M4Carbine.net has some as well and they are open to use, Lightfighter requires a login... Expect to be vetted and careful asking questions.

I would likely NOT use the PIG, for a variety of reasons.
# 1 no STANDARD size and shape soft armor.

BALCS/SPEAR cut is what all the cool kids use
Eagle CIRAS, Blackhawk STRIKE, PACA, TT, And a number of other manufacturers make a BALCS cut carrier
The only other STANDARD is the MSA Paraclete
i.e. stick with a widely available standard.
#2 I like my Armor Slick
I will use a chest rig over it (goes to modularity)
If I don't need the armor I will not use it, if but my rig is still the same.
Also a shade less "Snaggy"

I don't like to have a bunch of configurations, I prefer to have everything setup the same
I make some of my gear a little more functional for ME
I call these the AFSOC mods adding PALS loops to the suspender on the chest rig, splitting the pistol Flaps etc.
I do these things from my personal experience.

My Advice would be to spend the money on a good BALCS (Body Armor Load Carriage System) compatible carrier
PACA Low Viz
Eagle Low Viz
Blackhawk
Tactical Tailor
and a few others make a nice BALCS carrier
Condor and The PIG unfortunately are non standard in any way.

If I wanted just something to carry plates and a soft backer I would go with the US Palm rig.

I have a couple armor carriers
The Eagle LOW VIZ
and the Marom Dolphin (Izzy)

This one carries IIIA panels and a set of the lighter weight III+ plates or the IV plates.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:48:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2011 10:44:17 AM EDT by Reaperatm]
Afsoc are all of tye balcs/spear III+?  Are there different versions of it?  Reason I ask is from searching it seems many mfg make spear/balcs cut

Who makes the lightest multiple hit III+/IV plate?


ETA: I saw Docs posts, but most seem at least 1 or 2 years old, have there been any new improvements on the market?
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 8:35:36 AM EDT
I'm confused about why the PIG plate carrier is bad because it doesn't conform to BALCS or paraclete cut soft armor. It's a plate carrier, not an armor carrier.

If you are planning to wrap yourself in soft armor and plates then you should get an armor carrier. If you plan on using hard plates alone or with backers a plate carrier makes more sense.

I've used armor carriers professionally and purchased my own before I realized that the added protection isn't worth the loss of mobility and added weight for me. I've since switched over to a plate carrier with standalone plates.

I purchased a set of the SKD GB plates as there is a possibility of me going back overseas and the protection level would be nice to have. I've got a set of heavier lvl 3 plates that will find a new home in the PIG brig if it looks worthwhile, otherwise I'll go with a different low profile carrier.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 1:53:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reaperatm:
Afsoc are all of tye balcs/spear III+?  Are there different versions of it?  Reason I ask is from searching it seems many mfg make spear/balcs cut

Who makes the lightest multiple hit III+/IV plate?


ETA: I saw Docs posts, but most seem at least 1 or 2 years old, have there been any new improvements on the market?


OK The BALCS cut is a Soft panel, not a plate.
Do your homework...
Best plate I have encountered to date may well be the Defend-X Plates, their III+ defeated 63 consecutive M855 ball rounds, and will defeat pretty much everything
The Back Face was significantly Deformed after the last 3 round burst and most of the shots were at random with a few placed within a half inch of the edge of the plate specifically trying to get as close to the edge as possible, But yeah that plate weighs 12 pounds!
This Plate is Rated as a MULTI HIT M2AP plate it is the only one I have ever heard of.
They run about $595 each. and Weigh 12#

Plates Defined
Cheapest- Steel,
Pros? Durable, low cost, thin
Cons? HEAVY, SPALL,
Cost- 10x12 $120
Weight- 8-9 pounds
Protection- III
1/4" thick

Ceramic-
Pros? Light Weight, Good protection, Thin
Cons? You will have to take care of these plates they can be fragile.
Size-10x12
weight- 6 pounds
Cost- $240
Half inch Thick

Ultra Light Poly
Pros-VERY Light weight,
Cons- VERY THICK, Durable but it is not happy in a car trunk in hot weather.
I understand that SOME are able to survive heat but NO DYNEEMA PLATE will stop M855 Green Tip.
Level III+ Stops common ammo but NOT RATED TO STOP M855
Size- 10-12
Weight-3.5 pounds
Cost- $420-$440
1.15" thick

Level IV will stop ONE round of M2AP... ONE...
Plate is destroyed and an M855 likely will not slow down much as it zips through.

ALL IV plates are rated for multi hit with all lesser threats, All III plates are rated for Multi Hit
How long do you plan to stand there and trade shots with someone who is consistently pounding your plate!?

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:13:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2011 3:13:32 PM EDT by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 4:42:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By yakrat101:
I'm confused about why the PIG plate carrier is bad because it doesn't conform to BALCS or paraclete cut soft armor. It's a plate carrier, not an armor carrier.

If you are planning to wrap yourself in soft armor and plates then you should get an armor carrier. If you plan on using hard plates alone or with backers a plate carrier makes more sense.

I've used armor carriers professionally and purchased my own before I realized that the added protection isn't worth the loss of mobility and added weight for me. I've since switched over to a plate carrier with standalone plates.

I purchased a set of the SKD GB plates as there is a possibility of me going back overseas and the protection level would be nice to have. I've got a set of heavier lvl 3 plates that will find a new home in the PIG brig if it looks worthwhile, otherwise I'll go with a different low profile carrier.


Soft armor worn is worth more than Hard armor that stays home.
You are more likely to face a handgun than a rifle in civilian settings, I have worn armor professionally as well.
Overseas right now you are more likely to face a roadside bomb or IED than a rifle threat. You need Frag armor more than plates.
Your ISSUE armor generally EXCEEDS NIJ spec... BUT the plates and vest are very thick and heavy.

A Plate Carrier is just that, a plate carrier. What I prefer is what I prefer.
I am not saying don't buy these plates or that carrier. Most of these things are designed to be STUFFED with STUFF.
Wtih the plates filling out the carrier, or Soft armor filling out the carrier, they generally sag and work for shit without the armor.
What I said about the PIG was that the shapes that take armor are not compatible with the most common patterns.
You have to buy what SKD has for it. where with the BALCS cut I can buy from MOST manufacturers.

Plates are Plates and Soft armor is Soft Armor.

Mainly I am saying read the research and do you homework before buying plates in a Group Buy just because they are in a group buy.
My Level III+ plates are lighter and will stop about any threat I feel I would have to possibly face.
Up To 7.62x54R...
I have soft armor that will stop everything else!
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 4:52:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eric10mm:

Originally Posted By AFSOC:

Best plate I have encountered to date may well be the Defend-X Plates, their III+ defeated 63 consecutive M855 ball rounds, and will defeat pretty much everything
The Back Face was significantly Deformed after the last 3 round burst and most of the shots were at random with a few placed within a half inch of the edge of the plate specifically trying to get as close to the edge as possible, But yeah that plate weighs 12 pounds!
This Plate is Rated as a MULTI HIT M2AP plate it is the only one I have ever heard of.
They run about $595 each. and Weigh 12#
 
Don't forget that they are NOT available to John Q Public.  
 


Well if you have a NEED for it then you CAN get it.
As long as you are not a FELON there is not a legal reason you can't possess it.
The difficulty only lies in purchasing it.
Having a manufacturer who doesn't want to deal with the public is not unheard of.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 5:57:08 PM EDT
These are what I bought.

http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=18147

I dont know if they will stand up to the specs but they were in my price range and will probably stop most threats. There is a video where they shot the crap out of these.

The Max Pro Police & Armor DBA-IV 10" x 12" Level IV Stand Alone Ceramic Composite Plate is manufactured utilizing advanced Thermoplastic Composite (TPC) Ballistic Materials in conjunction with a pre-shaped Alumina ceramic panel. It is made with proprietary molding technology allows for a superior interface bonding between the ceramic and the composite, which translates into not only reliable ballistic performance but also an exceptional ability for the plate to maintain its integrity after being shot. This attribute permits the plate to maintain its ballistic performance beyond the first shot (multi-hit), which has been demonstrated in independent testing at certified testing facility. The plate is encapsulated in a durable black coating to protect from surface nicks and scratches.

   The plate has been tested for performance and inspected for workmanship by the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center and has been certified to Threat Level IV based on National Institute of Justice 2005 Interim Requirements
   Triple curve shape has been developed and used for optimum fit to the human body
   2-year warranty for workmanship and performance
   OVERALL DIMENSIONS: 11.8" x 10" - Front plate has deeper chamfered corners at the shoulders (Variations of +-.15" in each direction should be expected)
   WEIGHT: Front Plate - 7.5 lbs, Back Plate - 7.9 lbs
   Made in the USA

SPECIFY: Front Plate or Back Plate

COLOR: Black
This item requires identification verification to ensure this restricted item is only sold to the appropriate personnel.
To complete the verification process after ordering:
1. Please make a photocopy of your credentials:
   For Military: a copy of your military ID.
   For Law Enforcement: a copy of your badge and ID on
   department or company letterhead.
2. Please include your order number.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 5:59:37 PM EDT
And I'll add.

If you have ever worn full Interceptor you will realize just how shitty excessive armor is......
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 8:01:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2011 8:30:32 PM EDT by Reaperatm]
Afsoc I'm sorry I wasn't very clear. I know the Spear/balcs are soft armor. I'm more leaning towards the pig purely for mobility and light weight, I'm not an operator and it will be at least 2 years before im an LEO, considering I even get hired off the bat. So what I'm going for now is purely for fun/SHTF/OMGZWTFBBQTEOTWAWKI so what I was mainly looking for rifle/handgun protection only covering the vital organs, and the pig also has smaller side plates. I'm going for maximum mobility and light weight, god forbid I have to bug out on foot, in which case I may not even take armor due to weight.  Even my BOB is set up for light and fast, I don't plan on being in any gunfights and if I am, I will retreat and go another way.

My criteria will be to stop at least M855 and handgun rounds. I'd like multi hit plate just in case I'm one unlucky bastard and take a round on two different occasions but it's not must, but this is something that I don't want to skimp on $.

The bulletproofme.com has the 8lbs multi hit Lvl IV ceramic plates for relatively cheap compared to everything else. But 16lbs still seems really heavy so I may opt for the 6lbs single hit.

Will those ceramic lvl4 single hit rated on bulletproofme still take multi hits of m855 reliably at all? I can't did where Doc talks about that specifically

Sorry for all the questions, sometimes I take the shortbus school
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 12:06:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reaperatm:
Afsoc I'm sorry I wasn't very clear. I know the Spear/balcs are soft armor. I'm more leaning towards the pig purely for mobility and light weight, I'm not an operator and it will be at least 2 years before im an LEO, considering I even get hired off the bat. So what I'm going for now is purely for fun/SHTF/OMGZWTFBBQTEOTWAWKI so what I was mainly looking for rifle/handgun protection only covering the vital organs, and the pig also has smaller side plates. I'm going for maximum mobility and light weight, god forbid I have to bug out on foot, in which case I may not even take armor due to weight.  Even my BOB is set up for light and fast, I don't plan on being in any gunfights and if I am, I will retreat and go another way.

My criteria will be to stop at least M855 and handgun rounds. I'd like multi hit plate just in case I'm one unlucky bastard and take a round on two different occasions but it's not must, but this is something that I don't want to skimp on $.

The bulletproofme.com has the 8lbs multi hit Lvl IV ceramic plates for relatively cheap compared to everything else. But 16lbs still seems really heavy so I may opt for the 6lbs single hit.

Will those ceramic lvl4 single hit rated on bulletproofme still take multi hits of m855 reliably at all? I can't did where Doc talks about that specifically

Sorry for all the questions, sometimes I take the shortbus school


Nearly ALL Level IV plates will take M855 Multiple hit and M2AP single hit (That is what the NIJ standard reads) Very FEW IV plates will take multiple M2AP hits and it exceeds NIJ

My BALCS Panels are Kevlar XP no KM2 and are quite light, and flexible, like I said before the MILITARY Interceptor is like wearing a lead jacket...
Even the OLD PASGT Flak was like wearing a lead jacket and it didnt do so well against bullets...
If you have a need for FLAK coverage then the Interceptor or The USMC Modular armor is for you.

For LE the armor will most likely be department issue and you
There are some new systems out ther that are nice, a Uniform Shirt with The "Under Armor" middle like a combat shirt, with uniform sleeves, and the Armor carrier looks like a uniform shirt with pleats and pockets and badge mount, epalets, collar etc. but with armor panels inside.

Again Soft that you wear is worth a shit ton more than the hard you don't.
Wearing Armor 24x7 SUCKS, I spent time in a high threat environment for a long time where snipers were the real threat. Along with Random gunfire from random firefights
Those rounds that missed in the firefight had to go somewhere right? Then past that was the daily artillery exchange, as well as the odd roadside bomb.
I was issued armor a PASGT and a PT armor vest, the PT was more comfortable and had better coverage and old school rifle plates.
STEEL ones... it SUCKED...  BUT if it was not worn it would be worthless... I found myself climbing about on the roofs of structures and getting in and out of vehicles.
Rappelling, etc. so wearing the armor was not making me happy... getting on and off helicopters carrying stupid amounts of weight...
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 10:18:24 AM EDT
Addressing the threat is correct.

What if your threat has the mighty nuclear .380??????

Aint no hope fo you then.   LOL

sorry for stealing your thread.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 2:24:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Reaperatm:
Afsoc I'm sorry I wasn't very clear. I know the Spear/balcs are soft armor. I'm more leaning towards the pig purely for mobility and light weight, I'm not an operator and it will be at least 2 years before im an LEO, considering I even get hired off the bat. So what I'm going for now is purely for fun/SHTF/OMGZWTFBBQTEOTWAWKI so what I was mainly looking for rifle/handgun protection only covering the vital organs, and the pig also has smaller side plates. I'm going for maximum mobility and light weight, god forbid I have to bug out on foot, in which case I may not even take armor due to weight.  Even my BOB is set up for light and fast, I don't plan on being in any gunfights and if I am, I will retreat and go another way.

My criteria will be to stop at least M855 and handgun rounds. I'd like multi hit plate just in case I'm one unlucky bastard and take a round on two different occasions but it's not must, but this is something that I don't want to skimp on $.

The bulletproofme.com has the 8lbs multi hit Lvl IV ceramic plates for relatively cheap compared to everything else. But 16lbs still seems really heavy so I may opt for the 6lbs single hit.

Will those ceramic lvl4 single hit rated on bulletproofme still take multi hits of m855 reliably at all? I can't did where Doc talks about that specifically

Sorry for all the questions, sometimes I take the shortbus school



I wanted to touch on something... You speak of being potentially LE and then you talk of Needing Multi Hit because you might get shot one time and want them to last for another time... Well if you have to join the Kevlar Survivors club, that vest is done protecting you you turn it in to your agency and draw another one. Same deal with plates...
If it gets hit, it is DONE, you will not be using that plate next week... It is Done Son...
Turn it in, Draw another one and press on...

For instance, I bought for my own personal use 2 sets of the III+ plates, and I already have a vest with Level IV plates in it.
When I need it it will be there.


Link Posted: 5/1/2011 8:52:35 PM EDT
Level 4 plates are HEAVY, but offer the top level of protection. As stated before, it's best to asses the mission for the level of protection needed. Plus, level 4 plates are only rated for 1 round of .30-06 AP at approx 2800 fps.
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