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Posted: 8/9/2007 2:14:38 PM EDT
I recently obtained my pistol license and acquired a Ruger SP101. I keep it loaded and secured. The wife knows where I keep it and has access to it.

I've been reading a lot of stories of home invasions and it got me to thinking about the following scenerio:

I travel occasionally for business leaving the wife and kids at home. During one of these trips someone breaks into the house and my wife gets the gun and shoots the bg dead.

What happens to my wife? She has no pistol permit so according to the law she can't legally touch a handgun. Will any DA prosecute her for this? I can't see that happening but you never know.

What do you think about this?

Whisky19
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 2:28:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By whisky19:
What do you think about this?

Whisky19


I think your wife needs to get a pistol permit for several reasons.
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 2:36:24 PM EDT
That really doesn't answer the question...
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 2:36:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 3:14:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Plissken:
That really doesn't answer the question...


Because the question really can't be answered. The case will go to the grand jury for the use of DPF and it's anyones guess as to what they will do with it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 3:44:57 PM EDT
in Erie County the DA likely wouldn't press charges for the shooting unless the story sounded suspicious (Frank Clark might not be good at going after corrupt politicians, but he rarely brings charges against gun owners in self defense shootings), not sure about the unlicnesed person using a handgun though

she should get her own permit for no other reason than being able to keep the guns in the family if you die
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 4:10:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Plissken:
That really doesn't answer the question...


Actually, he did. Since NY requires a permit to handle a handgun, except under certain and specific circumstances, she should AT LEAST APPLY for her permit asap.

You are creating an artificial scenario to meet a home defense strategy build around a handgun - instead of building tatics around what is most effective.

A 18' barreled shotgun loaded with buckshot or even bird shot allows for a greater probability of hits to a target, easier "pointability" and greater stopping power. Of course the downside is concealability.

The biggest plus here is that so long as your wife is not disbarred from possessing guns, there is a gun that is easy to use, legal to own, CHEAP, simple + effective always at your/her fingertips.

'Drew
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 7:02:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ml2150:

Originally Posted By Plissken:
That really doesn't answer the question...


Actually, he did. Since NY requires a permit to handle a handgun, except under certain and specific circumstances, she should AT LEAST APPLY for her permit asap.

You are creating an artificial scenario to meet a home defense strategy build around a handgun - instead of building tatics around what is most effective.

A 18' barreled shotgun loaded with buckshot or even bird shot allows for a greater probability of hits to a target, easier "pointability" and greater stopping power. Of course the downside is concealability.

The biggest plus here is that so long as your wife is not disbarred from possessing guns, there is a gun that is easy to use, legal to own, CHEAP, simple + effective always at your/her fingertips.

'Drew



You were doing pretty well until right about there. Don't ever depend on something which was designed to stop a bird, to stop a man...
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 7:06:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:

Originally Posted By ml2150:

Originally Posted By Plissken:
That really doesn't answer the question...


Actually, he did. Since NY requires a permit to handle a handgun, except under certain and specific circumstances, she should AT LEAST APPLY for her permit asap.

You are creating an artificial scenario to meet a home defense strategy build around a handgun - instead of building tatics around what is most effective.

A 18' barreled shotgun loaded with buckshot or even bird shot allows for a greater probability of hits to a target, easier "pointability" and greater stopping power. Of course the downside is concealability.

The biggest plus here is that so long as your wife is not disbarred from possessing guns, there is a gun that is easy to use, legal to own, CHEAP, simple + effective always at your/her fingertips.

'Drew



You were doing pretty well until right about there. Don't ever depend on something which was designed to stop a bird, to stop a man...


Aim for his crotch. I'm pretty sure a crotch shot with birdshot would do the trick...LOL!
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 7:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
Aim for his crotch. I'm pretty sure a crotch shot with birdshot would do the trick...LOL!


Sure, it will! It worked for Dick! (Cheney) lol
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 7:52:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DefMan:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
Aim for his crotch. I'm pretty sure a crotch shot with birdshot would do the trick...LOL!


Sure, it will! It worked for Dick! (Cheney) lol


he tagged the guy in the face...not crotch if i recall

but anyhow, yeah, NYS laws are ridiculous, and I doubt ..(I hope)...they would press charges in such a case.

id say buy a shotgun though, probably easier for a beginner than a pistol to handle.
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 8:48:42 PM EDT
Can't go wrong with a .12 Gauge loaded with buckshot. Either that or a slug. That'll do ugly damage at close range...
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 8:53:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 1:48:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:



You were doing pretty well until right about there. Don't ever depend on something which was designed to stop a bird, to stop a man...



Nice of you to gloss over "or even bird shot ". The part underlined typically means "of last resort".


Having said that, what is your experience with birdshot on human like targets at 15ft? What is your experience with MISSING a target inside a house, and sending buckshot or slugs thru household partitions?

Been there, done that. Neither of my house shotguns have slugs in them, for a number of reasons.

How many houses have a clear line of sight out to 40ft? (Sorry, rkbar's McMansion does not count!!)


'Drew
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 4:54:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Woman home alone, husband out of town, house broken into... Not going to say it is impossible, but I find it highly improbable that a DA would take it to a grand jury. DA's are elected officials, and barring it being an adulterous lovers' dispute gone bad, and it was a true BG, the DA would be a fool to prosecute the case if he ever hoped to be reelected. All the DA's offices have public relations divisions, I work with them daily... they may not always make sense in the cases they choose to prosecute, but they are not fools in terms of playing to public sentiment. Woman defending her life and home trumps almost anything.

Having said that, by all means, have her apply for a permit TOMORROW!


Chances are the DA will present just about all fatal DPF shootings to a GJ and let them make the decision to true or no bill the charges. Police officer's employing the use of DPF are not immune from this "tactic" so I don't see why a woman using an unlicensed handgun would not be subjected to a GJ proceeding. I doubt the GJ would indict under these circumstances but why complicate the case when it is a fairly simple matter to get a pistol license and avoid the issue altogether.
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 5:03:47 AM EDT
Thanks for all of the replys. Of course it's an artificial scenerio. I just wanted to know what the legal ramifications were of an unlicensed person using a licensed handgun, at home, in self defense.



Whisky19
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 5:07:40 AM EDT
I think the clear answer here is that this scenario is totally preventable.

She needs to get her license ASAP.
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 5:25:41 AM EDT
Your wife would *most likely* not be convicted of a weapons possession offense. Her possession of the gun in the face of a deadly threat constitutes a "temporary and lawful possession" which is a case law exception under NYS common law.

Just the same she should be getting her pistol permit.
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 5:38:53 AM EDT
How about this then. What if I have a 19 year old daughter (I don't, yet) who is too young to have a handgun license. Same situation. What happens to her? I'm hoping that sanity would rule in this case and that no charges would be brought.



Whisky19

P.S. Just curious, How many of your wives have their own pistol licenses?
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 7:50:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By whisky19:
How about this then. What if I have a 19 year old daughter (I don't, yet) who is too young to have a handgun license. Same situation. What happens to her? I'm hoping that sanity would rule in this case and that no charges would be brought.



Whisky19

P.S. Just curious, How many of your wives have their own pistol licenses?


Your handgun should not be accessible to folks who are not lawfully able to possess a gun, end of story.

Get the damn shotgun already!
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 8:30:40 AM EDT
Whisky, forgetting the legal issues (which no one can answer except your personal attorney) are both your wife and daughter:

1. Proficient in the use of your handguns?
2. MENTALLY prepared to take the life of another person?
3. Aware of when and under what circumstances a person in NYS can legally use DPF against another person?

Number two is critical and cannot be overstressed. The last thing you want to do is have an intruder gain control of your firearm because of failing to instantaneously act to stop the threat when necessary. The mental preparation and physical response must be "in place" and can only be acquired through proper training. If you have to think about "what to do" when faced with DPF being used against you, chances are you will be too slow to react effectively.

Please don't interpret this as any type of discouragement as it is not meant that way.
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 1:44:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 6:25:26 AM EDT
The term is exigent circumstances. It is a greater good (or lesser of two evils) to violate a law in the situation. You can break a lot of laws in exigent circumstances, you just have to explain yourself and hope the judge and (grand) jury agree. Eg. like speeding because your child stopped breathing and you're rushing to the ER 4 blocks away.

Preventing being beaten, raped, killed in your own home versus picking up a handgun in the nightstand when some cretin attempts entry. The law is supposed to look at the totality of the situation and weigh them.
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 7:04:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
The term is exigent circumstances. It is a greater good (or lesser of two evils) to violate a law in the situation. You can break a lot of laws in exigent circumstances, you just have to explain yourself and hope the judge and (grand) jury agree. Eg. like speeding because your child stopped breathing and you're rushing to the ER 4 blocks away.

Preventing being beaten, raped, killed in your own home versus picking up a handgun in the nightstand when some cretin attempts entry. The law is supposed to look at the totality of the situation and weigh them.


actually...

they will tag you for speeding, regardless.

the govt claims if you or someone else is in dire need of assistance, call 911 and have an ambulance come to transport you. should never transport yourself or another, as they are not using legal means/an emergency vehicle.

Link Posted: 8/11/2007 2:11:50 PM EDT
If this was nj your going to jail
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 5:47:45 PM EDT
Where in the penal law does it state that you need a permit to handle a handgun?. You need a permit to own one, not handle one. So if I bring my wife to the range, she is not allowed to shoot the handgun?
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 7:01:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 7:24:31 PM EDT
The "temporary and lawful possession" doctrine evolved as a response to the harshness of the penal law's provisions on pistols. Without it, anyone without a permit possessing a gun for any reason would be guilty of a felony. The courts recognized this and in the right circumstances allow this exception to be utilized. Possession of another's lawful gun in the face of a deadly threat is just such an exception.

If the gun belonged to a husband but was unpermitted then I expect both would be charged with weapons possession.
Link Posted: 8/12/2007 1:25:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rubline1:
Where in the penal law does it state that you need a permit to handle a handgun?. You need a permit to own one, not handle one. So if I bring my wife to the range, she is not allowed to shoot the handgun?


Yep,

This is the stupidity that is NY gun laws. In order to get my license I needed to take a handgun safety course. However, because of the law, I wasn't able to actually handle a real handgun so we had to use an airsoft pistol. Absolutely unbelievable!

Whisky19

Link Posted: 8/12/2007 2:08:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By whisky19:

Originally Posted By Rubline1:
Where in the penal law does it state that you need a permit to handle a handgun?. You need a permit to own one, not handle one. So if I bring my wife to the range, she is not allowed to shoot the handgun?


Yep,

This is the stupidity that is NY gun laws. In order to get my license I needed to take a handgun safety course. However, because of the law, I wasn't able to actually handle a real handgun so we had to use an airsoft pistol. Absolutely unbelievable!

Whisky19



My class was taught by an FFL who let us handle weapons from his inventory.
Link Posted: 8/12/2007 6:51:10 PM EDT
When I took my pistol safety class, we handled real guns and ammo. That was years ago. Damn lawyers and their legalese. No offense rkbar15 or any others on this board.
Link Posted: 8/12/2007 7:07:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2007 9:43:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALbert:
When I took my pistol safety class, we handled real guns and ammo. That was years ago. Damn lawyers and their legalese. No offense rkbar15 or any others on this board.


did in my safety class too but...it was last year!

some laws are ...bad laws.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:17:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By whisky19:
This is the stupidity that is NY gun laws. In order to get my license I needed to take a handgun safety course. However, because of the law, I wasn't able to actually handle a real handgun so we had to use an airsoft pistol. Absolutely unbelievable!

Whisky19


AFAIK that's not necessarily true. The PL does provide an exemption for pistol licensee applicants provided you can get permission from your pistol licensing agency. Obviously if you cannot get permission from your licensing agency the exemption is meaningless.


§ 265.20 Exemptions.
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11,
265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:
1. Possession of any of the weapons, instruments, appliances or
substances specified in sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05
and 270.05 by the following:

..............................

7-b. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person who has applied for a license to
possess a pistol or revolver and pre-license possession of same pursuant
to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter, who has not been previously
denied a license, been previously convicted of a felony or serious
offense, and who does not appear to be, or pose a threat to be, a danger
to himself or to others, and who has been approved for possession and
use herein in accordance with section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter;
provided however, that such possession shall be of a pistol or revolver
duly licensed to and shall be used under the supervision, guidance and
instruction of, a person specified in paragraph seven of this
subdivision and provided further that such possession and use be within
the jurisdiction of the licensing officer with whom the person has made
application therefor or within the jurisdiction of the superintendent of
state police in the case of a retired sworn member of the division of
state police who has made an application pursuant to section 400.01 of
this chapter.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:26:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
They broke the law in doing so... stupid, but they did


Although not required by the licensing law some pistol licensing agencies will not issue a pistol license unless you register a handgun prior to them issuing the license. How you are supposed to decide on and purchase a handgun to register without examining it is beyond me.
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