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Posted: 10/2/2005 9:32:27 AM EDT
Its on ITV Teletext....
Apperently the police got it wrong.....  James, |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 11:36:03 AM EDT
[#1]
Can't get Teletext… tellies up the spout… What are they saying?… although we all know they got it wrong, there are cynics who reckon they demolished the gym because a lot of kids were killed by incoming fire amongst other things… ANdy |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 12:06:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Not a lot at the moment, except to say that the police failed to link 3 reported incidents.
Mark |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 12:21:42 PM EDT
[#3]
Police failed! screwed up!
no never, what a f...cking shock. 
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Posted: 10/2/2005 12:34:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Shock, Horror, Probe!!!!! Police failed!!!!!!…… Short of putting up a huge neon sign and taking out national ad's Hamilton could not have made his intentions plainer… Hamilton mode ON: "Hello plod, if someone went up to he school and started shooting all the kids how long would it take you to get an arrmed response unit on the scene?"… and he really did ask that question! Or the best one… next time I have one of the neighbours park outside my house lets see what happens if take a gun outside and theeaten to blow her head off if she don't move the car?… We are living in interesting times and the big lie is starting to crumble… ANdy |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 12:36:56 PM EDT
[#5]
But will it make any difference to us?? |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 12:43:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Probably not Mark… but it might screw over that self serving F***er at No10…
Ever since this article appeared cracks have started showing in the facade, I wonder if some people have something to hide? 
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Posted: 10/2/2005 12:53:22 PM EDT
[#7]
He'll fucking squirm his way out of it
Mark |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 2:36:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Probably, but at least the Police have finally admitted they failed to link 3 reports of Hamiltons antics with small boys… it's a start and a change from their original story. ANdy |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 2:49:56 PM EDT
[#9]
I dont mind being a scapegoat.
 Police fucked up...ahhhh blame the law abiding shooting community. Makes sense.  Any more info about this story apart from Teletext (so 90's)....? Taffy |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 2:57:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Found this
Link GEORGE Robertson, the NATO secretary general, is considering legal action against the owners of the Sunday Herald, over internet allegations about his connection to Thomas Hamilton, the Dunblane killer. And this.. Link LETTERS between Labour and Tory ministers and correspondence relating to Thomas Hamilton's alleged involvement with Freemasonry are part of a batch of more than 100 documents about the Dunblane mass murder which have been sealed from public sight for 100 years. The documents include a letter connected to Hamilton, which was sent by George Robertson, currently head of Nato, to Michael Forsyth, who was then Secretary of State for Scotland. Until now it was thought that a 100-year public secrecy order had only been placed on one police report into Hamilton which allegedly named high-profile politicians and legal figures. However, a Sunday Herald investigation has uncovered that 106 documents, which were submitted to the Dunblane inquiry in 1996, were also placed under the 100-year rule. The Scottish Executive has claimed the 100-year secrecy order was placed on the Central Police report, which was drafted in 1991 five years before the murders, to protect the identities of children named in the report. Hamilton had allegedly abused a number of children prior to his 1996 gun attack on Dunblane primary school in which 16 primary one children and a teacher died before Hamilton turned his gun on himself. However, only a handful of the documents, which the Sunday Herald has discovered to be also subject to the 100-year rule, relate to children or name alleged abuse victims. The most intriguing document is listed as: 'Copy of letter from Thomas Hamilton to Dunblane parents regarding boys' club, and flyer advertising Dunblane Boys' Sports Club. Both sent to Rt Hon Michael Forsyth, MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, by George Robertson MP.' Also closed under the 100-year rule is a 'submission to Lord James Douglas Hamilton, MP, Minister of State at the Scottish Office, concerning government evidence to the Inquiry'. Another document relates to correspondence between the clerk of the Dunblane inquiry, which was presided over by Lord Cullen, and a member of the public regarding 'possible affiliations of Thomas Hamilton with Freemasonry ... and copy letters from Thomas Hamilton'. SNP deputy justice minister, Michael Matheson, said: 'The explanation to date about the 100 -year rule was that it was put in place to protect the interests of children named in the Central Police report. How can that explanation stand when children aren't named? The 100-year rule needs to be re-examined with respect to all documents.' Matheson has written to the Lord Advocate, Colin Boyd, asking why the 100-year rule applies and how it can be revoked. He has so far had no response. He also asked First Minister Jack McConnell to explain the reasons for the 100-year order but received 'no substantial answer'. Matheson is to write to Colin Boyd a second time, in the light of the discovery that more than 100 other documents are also sealed, asking him to account for the decision. A spokeswoman for the Crown Office said: 'In consultation with the Crown Office and the Scottish Office, Lord Cullen agreed that in line with the age of some of the individuals involved and named in the inquiry, the closure period would be 100 years. The Lord Advocate is considering issuing a redacted copy of the productions, which would blank out identifying details of children and their families. A decision on this has yet to be made.' Taffy |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 3:11:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Good find Taff, I searched myself earlier but didn't find anything
Mark |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 4:25:14 PM EDT
[#12]
Whoever you need to go after, do it.
The Snowdrop Campaign sure won't. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 2:54:06 AM EDT
[#13]
I'am appalled, I can still remember the Sky News bringing on one psychiatric expert after another, giving us the generallity a run down of how ill the shooting community is, and that anyone who shoots hunts or is intrested in firearms has alsorts of sexual and mental problem's.
It was a tragic incident, no excuse or any reason could ever cover what happened in Dunblane, and my thoughts and prayers are with those now, as then who lost loved one's. If the New Labour is anything like the old New Labour, then we are doomed to be kept in the dark and fed on shit as to the real reasons as to why the cover up. As to going to the €uropean Court, thats going to be very intresting to see, HMG will probably tell them to naff off and mind their own business, which would be equall to an addmission of guilt in my eyes. Now to get back to the shrinks evaluation of all gun enthusiasts being perverts, it's really perverted that we had to suffer the loss of rights to protect perverts and their perversion's, now that really is perverted. What a shame!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:54:36 AM EDT
[#14]
SCHOOL KILLER'S 'PARANOIA'
Papers from the inquiry into the Dunblane school massacre have been released - they were initially meant to be kept secret for 100 years. They show murderer Thomas Hamilton bore a grudge verging on paranoia against the town's parents, police and the scouting movement. Hamilton killed 16 pupils and their teacher during the massacre in March 1996, then turned his gun on himself. The documents were released following an appeal by the victims' families amid claims of a cover-up and various conspiracy theories. One person who had known Hamilton for years told police after the massacre that Hamilton would regularly vent his grievances in phone calls. "I would say he did have a thing, almost paranoia, about the Scouts, police and parents in Dunblane," the witness said. "He felt everyone was against him, really the whole thing became repetitive and very boring." The witness statement is one of 3,000 documents relating to the Dunblane massacre made public for the first time. The documents, from the Cullen Inquiry, were originally placed under a 100-year closure order but Scotland's senior law officer, Lord Advocate Colin Boyd, reviewed that decision. The papers have been made available at the National Archives of Scotland in Edinburgh. The identity of the witness is not disclosed in the papers but he was 28 when he gave his statement to police shortly after the shootings at Dunblane Primary School.[/red This is what Sky News has to say about it all, any coments??? |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:44:57 AM EDT
[#15]
I've been trying to search the Scottish Public records Office Here, but all I keep getting is "Closed"
Guess we'll just have to wait. Mark |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 12:29:50 PM EDT
[#16]
…
The Sunday Times - Scotland The Sunday Times October 02, 2005 Dunblane police had Hamilton ‘under suspicion’ Jason Allardyce DECLASSIFIED police reports will place prosecutors under pressure this week to explain why they failed to bring child abuse charges against the gunman responsible for the 1996 Dunblane massacre. Among more than 100 files to be released are case notes detailing 10 charges brought by Central Scotland police against Thomas Hamilton, three years before he killed 16 pupils and a teacher at Dunblane primary school. The charges related to allegations of abuse at a boys’ camp which Hamilton ran at Loch Lomond in 1991. They were all dismissed by the procurator fiscal in Stirling and the case never came to court. Detective Sergeant Paul Hughes, who headed the child protection unit of Central Scotland police, suspected that the gunman was a paedophile and urged the fiscal’s office to prosecute him. He also called for Hamilton’s gun licence to be withdrawn. Another policeman met a fiscal deputy and suggested that Hamilton was guilty of breach of the peace and lewd, indecent and libidinous practices and behaviour and to obtain a search warrant. The fiscal’s office said there was insufficient evidence to press charges, claiming that while Hamilton’s actions were of concern they did not “cross the boundary into a criminal offence”. Hughes, who has since retired on ill-health grounds, had investigated allegations of mistreatment on Hamilton’s camp at Balmaha, Loch Lomond, taking statements from 17 children, their parents and other witnesses. He warned that Hamilton was “stressed in the supervision of children” and that there was “a possibility of indecency entering into his photography”. The release of more than 30 files — after Colin Boyd, the lord advocate, lifted a 100-year closure order — is expected to reveal that Hamilton had extensive dealings with some policemen. While the files may raise fresh questions about Hamilton’s relationship with authorities who failed to act against him, some parents of the victims say it should put an end to some of the conspiracy theories surrounding the tragedy. These have ranged from claims that Hamilton was at the heart of a paedophile ring involving police officers to claims of masonic influence. Dr Mick North, whose daughter Sophie was one of the children killed in the shootings, said that he had been “rather taken aback” to learn how many serving and former officers in the Central Scotland police knew Hamilton. But having read through the complete records he said there was no evidence that police had given Hamilton special favours. “I don’t think that’s the case. There are some strange coincidences but I think they are just that,” he said. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-1807800,00.html |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:09:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Sounds like DS hughes did the right thing but was let down by the fiscal office. There was insufficient evidence coz the fools would not authorise a frigging search warrant Taffy |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 11:22:24 PM EDT
[#18]
It gets worse!…
So basically we all got fucked over to distract the public from the total and absolutely mind booggling incompetence of the Jockinese legal system and Police… nice… Dunblane detective told of fears before massacre By David Lister, Scotland Correspondent A POLICE officer was so concerned about the threat posed to children in Dublane by Thomas Hamilton that he paid a visit to prosecutors to try to persuade them to take action. But although the detective sergeant believed that the former scout master may have committed “lewd, indecent and libidinous practices” by taking photographs of boys in swimming trunks, he said that he was told not to bother the procurator fiscal’s office unless he could provide more damning evidence. The detective’s concerns are contained in more than 3,000 documents published yesterday, which reveal the full scale of official incompetence that left Hamilton free to kill 16 children and their teacher at Dunblane Primary School in March 1996. The files detail dozens of complaints about Hamilton’s summer camps, concerns about his suitability to hold a firearms licence and his increasing exasperation as he sought to protect his reputation by writing a steady stream of letters to senior police officers, politicians and even the Queen. In June 1993, the detective forwarded a report to the procurator fiscal after receiving complaints from parents whose children attended evening classes with Hamilton at high schools in Dunblane and Stirling. On one occasion a parent found Hamilton locked inside the gym at Stirling High School with just one boy, dressed only in “very scant trunks”, who was being made to do press-ups while Hamilton took photographs. On another occasion a child was made to sit “crouched on his knees, between the legs of another boy. He had to hold this boy’s neck whilst the boy carried out sit-up type exercises. This caused (the boy) to go across the body of the other child, almost in a lying position, and Mr Hamilton photographed this”. In a report to prosecutors, the policeman, whose named has been removed from documents, requested a warrant to search Hamilton’s house, but was denied. He testified in May 1996 that he had been told by prosecutors “that although the conduct of Hamilton was concerning, it approached but did not amount to criminal conduct”. He added: “I was told that unless there was additional evidence . . . then he (the prosecutor) didn’t wish reports to be made as there would not be any proceedings taken.” Relatives of those killed in the massacre said yesterday that the documents displayed a “lack of joined-up thinking” in the failure to prosecute Hamilton and strip him of his firearms licence. However, the papers appear to discredit many of the conspiracy theories since the massacre, including claims that Hamilton was given special favours by Freemason friends in the police, that officers knew that the massacre was about to take place, and that he was part of a paedophile ring. The papers, which were placed under a 100-year closure order following a public inquiry into the shootings by Lord Cullen, were made available after a review by Colin Boyd, QC, the Lord Advocate, Scotland’s most senior law officer. Reports of Hamilton’s strange, effeminate manner aroused suspicion throughout his life. “I found him polite enough but thought him a bit strange,” recorded a firearms examiner for Central Scotland Police in January 1992. In 1995, another officer thought him so odd that he asked for his firearms application to be double-checked because he felt sure that Hamilton had previous convictions. He was wrong. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1809830,00.html and no background checks were carried either it seems…… 20 years of missed warnings that left Hamilton free to kill LUCY ADAMS and TOM GORDON October 04 2005 POLICE did not carry out routine checks on two decades of criminal intelligence about Thomas Hamilton which could have prevented the Dunblane massacre. Secret files released to the public for the first time yesterday reveal numerous criminal allegations were held on file against the man responsible for killing 16 children and their teacher, but officers failed to revoke his firearms certificate. A report by the former deputy chief constable of Strathclyde Police showed investigations into Hamilton's behaviour and allegations of child abuse and impropriety with guns dated back to the early 1970s. However, these were not checked when he applied for his certificate to be renewed. Hamilton walked into Dunblane Primary School's gymnasium on March 13, 1996 and opened fire using weapons he was licensed to use. Also included in the 3000-plus files, was the revelation that the date was a final deadline for Hamilton paying council tax arrears of £228.98, and was the last day before the then Central Regional Council executed a warrant allowing it to freeze at source any wages he might have, and his bank account. Lord Cullen's inquiry had already heard of the growing desperation of Hamilton as he struggled with rising debt and speculation about his sexuality. A financial analysis showed he had total bank and building society assets of three pence, an overdraft of £6472, and owed £1500 to Barclaycard and £722 on a Debenhams charge card. He had very little income. The files from the inquiry into the massacre were to be kept confidential for 100 years to protect the families of the victims but, in the face of public pressure, ministers and the lord advocate decided to release them with the names of witnesses removed. They show a litany of allegations raised about Hamilton and failures by the police, procurators-fiscal and local authorities to act upon them. He was first granted a firearms certificate in 1977, "albeit during the 1970s he was investigated by police following allegations of indecent conduct towards boys", one of the files says. The Strathclyde Police report explains that responsibility for checking and disseminating intelligence held on Hamilton fell "between two stools" and that there was no evidence his file had been consulted by divisional commanders before approval. The newly released information also indicates earlier intelligence and "pertinent details" on allegations were later removed from police files in line with their routine "weeding policy". Contrary to firearms policy at the time, officers routinely failed to check his membership of gun clubs, ambiguities in his references, and intelligence held on him. In August 1988, Hamilton is alleged to have made veiled threats to a woman by stating he had four guns and saying she should watch what she said to the police. The report found this information was not contained in his file. Later the same year, he is alleged to have handed out handguns and semi-automatic weapons to the sons of a family he knew. This was reported to Lothian and Borders Police but neither a witness nor Hamilton were interviewed. The files also reveal that, despite investigations by police into three of his boys' camps after allegations of verbal and physical abuse, the procurators-fiscal took no proceedings. In 1989, a police officer filed a report suggesting he had committed lewd and libidinous offences and called for a warrant to search his house for photos of boys forced to wear swimming trunks. The fiscal said there was insufficient evidence. http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/48206.html |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 4:44:50 AM EDT
[#19]
Ok then who's up for suing the Central Scotland Plod for ruining our sport??
James |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:20:46 AM EDT
[#20]
If the NRA brings an action i'll chuck some money in the hat.
ANdy |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:05:07 AM EDT
[#21]
If I may Quote...
About covers it yes? Taffy |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:30:10 AM EDT
[#22]
Mind boggling in the least.
Waiting to see what else gets uncoveres as people start to wade through the 3000 files. Mark |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 2:01:45 PM EDT
[#23]
me too, I have a nice Enfield mk2 I'd like to give to my dad. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 2:41:20 AM EDT
[#24]
How about this then?…… In 1992, a firearms officer who was sent to assess Hamilton's gun licence renewal said he "found him polite enough but a bit strange". But this, he noted, was not enough to deny his application. By 1995, a police officer sent to assess Hamilton's latest gun application was more strident, saying he "didn't feel comfortable in his presence and was glad to get out of the house". The officer said he believed Hamilton had tried to "intimidate" him by showing him a revolver in an oilskin. But, again, he saw no reason to deny the firearms application. " and the plods were not too surprised when he went beserk either… The documents also reveal what happened in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. One woman lent her mobile phone to a policeman at the scene. Part of the policeman's conversation was inadvertently recorded on an answering machine. It went: "How many's dead?" "Eh, several, over a dozen - it's Tommy Hamilton. He's a fuckin' nutter." http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1584275,00.html |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 11:51:23 AM EDT
[#25]
Okay, how do you screen or vet someone thoroughly enough to know that this person isnt going to run amok in the near or distant future? I'am aware that this is a very sensitive subject, for those who react to this in a bad way, dont burn me and dont continue to read this post!!!!
I have had this conversation with severall of my German mates in the past, especially when new members show up and apply for their first weapons. In 99.9% of all cases they keep up with the shooting sport and further themselves in the area that takes their fancy. Some were only there to get their gun licence, and they dont come to the range again. We as a shooting club are bound by law to inform the local goverment agency resposible for the issueing of the German FAC as to the fact. They then receive a letter from that agency, asking them as to where, and with which club they currently shoot at. If they dont give an appropriate answer their weapons will be confiscated.......As they have no further need for them!!!!!!!!! I remember getting one of these a few years ago, I was on the phone to the bloke in no time at all to explain that I'd been involved in a big project at work and I hadn't really had the time, and that I was still a member of the club and intended to resume shooting on a regular basis once the project was over. He accepted this at face value, and I went to the range at least twice a month thereafter, or at least until I joined my current gun club, I go there at least twice a week as its only 10 miles away  If I'm reading all of this post correctly, the authorities should have acted much earlier, It wasn't the other gun enthusiasts that were at fault, but they were punished as a colective, for the horrible insane act of one. It never ceases to amaze me that the people who commit such crimes, then take their own live's in due course. They see red, commit the act, have a moment of total sanity, the realization sets in, and then take the only way out. The families and loved ones, not forgetting the general public are cheated out of their court case, prosecution and incarceration of the criminal, become a inconsoleable bunch who want their pound of flesh, from somewhere and don't really care who pays the price (us). I have noticed a killjoy attitude spreading throughout the world. ''Oh that wont affect me or mine, so we dont need it any way''. It is everywhere, Its spreading fast. Until it does affect their right's, then they are adamant that they should be allowed to carry on as had. They heard the cry's for help last week from the neighbour who had his rights taken, but didnt act. Now its their turn to cry for help, and get the same response that they themselves gave. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 12:05:42 PM EDT
[#26]
The problem here was this guy it now seems had a 20 year record of being the local nutter and child molester… he was so well known that a Police officer refered to him as 'A fuckin nutter'… he was a known peadofile with a string of complaints and charges brought agaisnt him, but for some reason the Jockinese police never prosecuted him… even his FEO's who vetted him for his firearms licence thought he was a wierdo and dodgy!!!!! The probelm was with the Police who seem to have been so utterly incompetent they made the Keystone Kops look like professionals. Andy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 1:16:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Hiya Vito,
Thats what I'm getting at, we all loose our temper every now and then, but we dont go out shooting people. I have a punch bag hanging up in my basement, and when I get wound up about something, that bag get's a good kicking. I dont know if I could kill someone....Temporary insanity= who know's what we are capable of. Life is to valuble, (at least mine and that of my family & friend's is to me). The problem would appear to lie with the legal system, that assumes that we are innocent till proven guilty or even sane until proven otherwise. Everyone should be treated equally and fairly. If the Scotish Police were aware of any problem's with Mr. H. but didn't have enough evidence to take the matter further.... It is still what they can prove, no judge can pass sentence on what someone thinks. Joke time:- A recriut asks the drill sargeant ' what would you do if I called you a c__t?' The drill sargeant looks at the recriut and screams at him,'I'd lock you up son'. The recriut asks the drill sargeant ' what would you do if I thought that you are a c__t?' The drill sargeant answer's,' I cant really do anything about your thought's'. The recriut smile's and say's,' I think that you are a c__t'!!!! I loved that one as a young recriut. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 2:19:07 PM EDT
[#28]
You are not innocent until proven guilty when applying for a firearms licence, there is no burden of proof, it purely comes down to the opinion of the FEO and Chief Constable and the rules clearly state you most not be given the benefit of the doubt, any suspicions or doubts and it's 'No' and if you have a licence, it's revoked. This did not happen with Hamilton. ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:14:58 PM EDT
[#29]
Hiya Vito,
How sad. Tony |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 11:16:06 PM EDT
[#30]
What's sad Tony is that it is now clear WHY both the Conservatives and Labour were happpy to hang all the Pistol shooters out to dry. Scotlands Police come under the Home Office, so, if it was public knowledge just how criminally incompetent they were over a period of 20 years, both parties would catch hell.
SO, the answer was to cover up all the evidence of Police incompetence under the 100 year rule claiming it was to protect the children, now we can see that was bullshit. The real reason was to protect the Home Secretaries and Conservative and Labour paries who allowed Scotlands Police and legal system to become so utterly incompetent. This also explains why, when they were claiming the ban was to protect the public, there were no bans in either the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland or any of Britains colonies… you see, they have their own independent(ish) Police Forces and there was no danger of any problems there affecting the Politicians in London. It also explains why the fanatically anti gun stance of the Scottish Police and Parliament to this day, they fucked up in the past and obviously can't trust themselves not to fuck up again. The only good thing to come out of all this is it is now clear that the system did not allow Hamilton access to guns, stupid and incompetent Police and prosecutors did, and with that uunpleasant truth out in the open now perhaps we will see a little less arse covering by the politicians and just maybee get some pistols back, just maybe. ANdy |
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Posted: 10/6/2005 8:10:22 AM EDT
[#31]
I'm confused, if it was buried under the 100 year rule then how come it's all coming out after less than 10? |
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Posted: 10/6/2005 8:18:40 AM EDT
[#32]
The Scotish parliament, or certain MPs, challenged the 100yrs and had most of the documents released to the public domain. It's not just shooters that are worried about a cover-up. Matt |
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Posted: 10/7/2005 4:16:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Hiya Vito,
My fingers are X'ed. Sorry if I upset you, but I think that I now have a better insight. Tony |
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Posted: 10/7/2005 5:26:17 AM EDT
[#34]
You did not upset me Tony!!! How did you get that idea! ANdy |
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