One of my cars has a locked box bolted to the floor, which always has a gun in it (in compliance with my CHL and Ohio law).

I've been using a local Valvoline Instant Oil Change when I'm in a hurry for the last few years.  Yesterday, I was getting the oil changed on my wife's car (no gun in that car).  Usually, I never get out of the car while they are changing the oil.  This time, I had a few movies to return at the video store next to Valvoline, so I left my car and returned the videos.  On my way back, I had to come through the front door.  This was the first time I'd ever entered through the lobby, and much to my chagrin, they had a "no handgun" sign on the door.

I confronted the manager about it, asking what the deal was.  He said it was a corporate policy.  I informed him that it is certainly the right of any business owner to make themselves a Criminal Protection Zone, but if they are going to do this, they should put the damn sign where 999 out of 1000 customers will see it, on the garage bay doors where they drive their vehicles into the oil change area.  I told him that I had a loaded gun on their property on numerous occasions, because I was ignorant of the policy (due to their choice of sign placement).  I also told him that this would be the last time I would do business with him, and it would be a good idea to move the damn sign.

I followed up with their corporate customer service line, and found that this was indeed a nationwide corporate policy.  I submitted their name to OFCC's DWPWA database.

Too bad, this place was convenient and they have always been professional.

Yup, ours has a sign too.

I switched to Walmart's quick-change. Cheaper, and they like guns.....I can walk 50 feet from the counter and buy one!

That's a damn shame....

I *used* to go there.  I have a friend who is a regional mgr for them, and he is a gun nut.   I can't wait to give him an ear full.

Man...I have to add to this thread.  I'd never noticed their sign.  Too bad.  They are buttheads.  But even worse, my nearest location is pathetic when it comes to a simple oil change.  Was there about 10 days ago and asked for synthetic, as I usually do.  They brought up a nasty looking pitcher from the bay below with the oil in it.  No way of telling whether or not it was synthetic, or some el-cheapo stuff.  Usually they toss up five individual quart bottles of synthetic oil so you know what you are getting.  Then, the chicky-poo attendant spills about half a quart of this oil down the front of my engine.  I am still smelling this oil burning off when I drive.  Then, the floor of this place was so oily that I tracked oil marks onto my carpeted floor mats.  Finally, I had asked for some new wiper blades, but they never did that.  Thankfully, they didn't charge me for the wiper blades either.

I'll never go to a VOIC again.  I wrote to complain, but have never heard back from a person. I guess I could mention that they ruined the clutch in my Chevy truck some years ago by filling the tranny housing with grease, but at least they paid for a new clutch.

If you care for your car...avoid these folks.

dvo  

I took a Diesel VW rabbit there a few years ago. Brought my own oil (because they do not have the right stuff), and filter. I got the oil changed, then left for Canada. I got almost to the border when the smoke started rolling out from under the hood. They left the oil fill cap off. Then when I went back they said it was impossible for them to have left it off, because the car would not run without it. I do my own oil now (and before, just in a hurry that time). Back to the subject at hand, I do buisness with 2 companies that restrict carry, my exellent motorcycle parts shop (who I harrass every time I visit) and my bank (National City).  I think the bank building may be owned by State Teachers Retirement (also a customer of mine). My current employer was going to post untill I got online and started to put them on that site, then they had a change of heart. Really one of them wanted to do it, then changed his mind. They did not appretiate the threat, but that was what I had to do to resolve the situation.

Just ignore the fucking signs.

When the shit hits the fan, its every man for himself and the gun-fearing pussies will be shitting their pants cowering behind their desks.

Until business start putting metal detectors on entrances, I will not worry about some bullshit sign that tries to nullify my rights.

In a free society, property owners should have the right to regulate what happens and who is allowed on THEIR property.  Even though I disagree with them, it's their store.  I vote with my feet and wallet.

You don't have the absolute right to do whatever you want on someone else's property.

Quoted: They brought up a nasty looking pitcher from the bay below with the oil in it.  No way of telling whether or not it was synthetic, or some el-cheapo stuff.  Usually they toss up five individual quart bottles of synthetic oil so you know what you are getting.  Then, the chicky-poo attendant spills about half a quart of this oil down the front of my engine. dvo

You must go to the one in Parma!

Quoted: In a free society, property owners should have the right to regulate what happens and who is allowed on THEIR property.  Even though I disagree with them, it's their store.  I vote with my feet and wallet. You don't have the absolute right to do whatever you want on someone else's property.

Property owners are not free to prohibit access to places of business open to the public to just anyone they want.  They can't do it because of race, among several other factors.  Why should MY right to protect myself be any less important?  I'm not talking about intruding into someone's residence.  I'm talking about places of business open to ALL.

The only reason to carry a handgun is to protect one's life and that of one's family.  That self-preservation is, to me, supreme over what some store owners thinks about guns.

If I ever need to draw to defend my life, what a property owner or a corporate policy thinks about concealed handguns isn't going to mean shit to me.

Excellent post, SWO...

+1

Well put SWO

I take the view that in a FREE country, you should be allowed to have control over your own property, whether it's a business or not, for any reason you feel like.  The idea that a private property owner can't descriminate for any reason he feels like is a modern idea.  It's one of those "made-up" rights, like federal "right" to abortion, that doesn't actually exist in the Constitution.  If you can point out the section of the Constitution that guarantees your right to do what ever you feel like on someone else's property, please do so.

Do you have the right to smoke in a place of business that prohibits smoking?  Do you have the right to enter a store without a shirt or shoes if the business doesn't allow it?  Etc., etc.

You selectively apply bad legal concepts in some places, and ignore other laws where it suits you.  You assert that it is illegal for businesses to discriminate (because of extra-Constitutional "rights"), but you don't think that legally enacted laws apply to you when you don't like them.  Alrighty then.

Valvoline isn't restricting your right to self-defense.  It's telling you that you aren't welcome on their property when you are armed.  You can go somewhere else.  Valvoline doesn't have a monopoly on oil changes.  It's as simple as that.  I think it's a bad policy, but it's their choice.

Quoted: Valvoline isn't restricting your right to self-defense.

Really?  So having to disarm in your vehicle before leaving it is not being restricted?  Let's follow your logic and assume that every private business becoems posted.  Now what?  Where CAN you carry?  In your car and while walking down the sidewalk.  Well, it's a fucking felony to even have contact with your weapon while IN your car.

And how about employers not allowing you to keep a legally concealed handgun in YOUR car just because it is PARKED on their lot?  Now you have to leave your gun at home in the morning and cannot have access to it until you get back.  You don't think that is cancelling your right to self defense?

You're the one living in a legal fantasyland if you think that rights are ABSOLUTE.  They never have been, even from the day this Republic was founded.

Who's living in the legal fantasy land?  I never suggested that rights are absolute.  You seem to be, about your right to carry concealed on someone else's property.  I understand that my rights end, when they start to infringe on someone else's civil rights.  For example, my right to free speech doesn't allow me to shout "fire" in a movie theater.  My right to free assembly doesn't allow me to hang around with a bunch of my friends on someone else's property, if they don't want me there.

The CHL in Ohio is just another example of this concept.  Your firearms rights end, when you are infringing on someone else's property rights.

You have taken things to extremes in your example.  Obviously, not everyone is posting signs.  The free market is keeping that from happening.  Businesses don't want to lose long time customers.  For example, in my town, only one out of the four grocery stores has a "no-handgun" sign (Aldi's).  So, I vote with my feet and my wallet.

Also, it's only a felony to have contact with your gun in your vehicle, when you are pulled over at a traffic stop by an LEO.

As far as employers are concerned, there is also a free market there.  Not all employers do this.  You can vote with your feet.  Also, in the opinion of the AG's office, you aren't breaking the law until you can see the sign.  So, if an employer doesn't have the sign at the entrance to the parking lot, and you can't see the sign on the front door from the parking lot, you're not breaking the law.  You might be violating company policy, but you aren't breaking the law.

My employer doesn't allow me to read Playboy magazine while on the job.  By you're argument, they are illegally restricting my right to free speech, and I should just ignore their rules and bring porn to work if I want to.  Baloney.  If I don't like their rules, I can hit the road and get a job somewhere else.  If I don't like anybody's rules, I can get off my ass and start my own business.

I am not going to debtate this any further, since you seem to be unwilling or unable to stay on the point.  I will continue on my chosen course without regard to others' opinions.

hoss622:

Right on!  Property oweners and employers that post are dumbasses, certainly, but we must respect their property rights if we wish to have our rights respected.  One can't pick and choose which rights are respected.  That way to dark side leads...

SWO_daddy:

I understand your feelings on this matter, but your logic is bad.  What you should say is 1) they have the right to post the sigh 2) you have the right to ignore it if you chose 3) they have the right to have you arrested NOT for excersizing your RKBA, but for trespassing on their property.  They also have the right to say no blacks, whites, women, gays, etc.  This doesn't mean they aren't racist, sexist, etc., they are in this case, but they are within their rights.

Now on an only somewhat related notes, I will say that I have a right to carry a firearm into a PUBLIC building like the ones specifically forbidden in federal and many state CCW laws.  Why?  Because the property owner is, at least in part, me.  This, however, is another arguement altogether for another day...

Quoted: They also have the right to say no blacks, whites, women.  This doesn't mean they aren't racist, sexist, etc., they are in this case, but they are within their rights....

MY logic is bad?  GMAFB.......

Tell you what, why don't you open a business and post a sign that says "No blacks or women allowed in".  You'll soon find out just how wrong you are.

What part of "The right to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed" do you think business owners who open their establishments to the public can take away from you?

While I hate the fact that signs are posted, I believe they have the right to post them if they choose. But I also feel that those caught carrying should only be able to be charged with a minor crime (like trespassing) and only if they refuse to leave.  The maxium fine should be no more than $10 or $15 and that's only if they refuse to leave.

I also feel that posted property owners be liable for loss from robbery, and injury on their property if they refuse to allow people to defend themselves. If someone is robbed, shot, stabbed or whatever, posted property owners need to be held accountable if the crime could have been stopped by CCW. Only those legally required by law to post be an exception.

It should be that if a property is posted and not required by law, they are required to provide for the safety of anyone on their business property. This may be armed guards, better lighting, cameras or whatever steps are needed to keep it as crime free as possible.

I also feel all posted signs be on every door, be large enough to read and have the ghost buster symbol or it's not considered posted. I see signs posted with tiny print, not on or even near doors or just stuck anywhere inside.

Quoted: Quoted: They also have the right to say no blacks, whites, women.  This doesn't mean they aren't racist, sexist, etc., they are in this case, but they are within their rights.... MY logic is bad?  GMAFB....... Tell you what, why don't you open a business and post a sign that says "No blacks or women allowed in".  You'll soon find out just how wrong you are.

Do no confuse rights with laws.  The law, and therefore law enforcement, often violate our rights.  Our rights are inherent, not granted.  So, yes, if I open a business and put up a sign that says "No blacks or women allowed in." I will eventually find myself in court.  Here, the government oversteps its authority.  If I put a sign like that up, I should find my self in bankruptcy court, not criminal court.

horse.gif

Quoted: What part of "The right to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed" do you think business owners who open their establishments to the public can take away from you?

Absolutely no part of it, nor can they.  Conversely, what part of PRIVATE property do you feel you can take away?  A business can not disarm me.  They can only tell me I can not enter their property armed.  So if I choose not to disarm my self, I can not legally or ETHICALLY enter.

Quoted: I also feel all posted signs be on every door, be large enough to read and have the ghost buster symbol or it's not considered posted. I see signs posted with tiny print, not on or even near doors or just stuck anywhere inside.  hr

I believe the law does say "conspicuously posted on all public entrances".

Thus far I have seen: an OfficeMax with a CPZ sign in the bathroom, a Trader Joes with a CPZ sign behind the ashtray (so you could only see it in reverse on the way out), and a VIOC with a non-graphic 3" square CPZ sign in the lower right hand corner of the garage door.

These are not "conspicuously posted on all public entrances" to my way of thinking, and in each case I did not see the sign until I was already in, or on my way out of the building.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They also have the right to say no blacks, whites, women.  This doesn't mean they aren't racist, sexist, etc., they are in this case, but they are within their rights.... MY logic is bad?  GMAFB....... Tell you what, why don't you open a business and post a sign that says "No blacks or women allowed in".  You'll soon find out just how wrong you are. Do no confuse rights with laws.  The law, and therefore law enforcement, often violate our rights.  Our rights are inherent, not granted.  So, yes, if I open a business and put up a sign that says "No blacks or women allowed in." I will eventually find myself in court.  Here, the government oversteps its authority.  If I put a sign like that up, I should find my self in bankruptcy court, not criminal court. Quoted: What part of "The right to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed" do you think business owners who open their establishments to the public can take away from you? Absolutely no part of it, nor can they.  Conversely, what part of PRIVATE property do you feel you can take away?  A business can not disarm me.  They can only tell me I can not enter their property armed.  So if I choose not to disarm my self, I can not legally or ETHICALLY enter.

So now you are arguing that the non-enumerated private property rights of a business owner who is open for business with the PUBLIC AT LARGE should supercede the enumerated right to keep and bear arms?

Which enumerated right would you like cancelled next when faced with entering a place of business?  

It is irrelevant if other similar businesses decide not to infringe your rights.

So now you are arguing that the non-enumerated private property rights of a business owner who is open for business with the PUBLIC AT LARGE should supercede the enumerated right to keep and bear arms? Which enumerated right would you like cancelled next when faced with entering a place of business?   It is irrelevant if other similar businesses decide not to infringe your rights.

I have no desire to argue about this.  You either understand the concepts of liberty or you don't.

Think about this though:  Where do rights come from?  Are they granted by the Constitution?  Or by the government?  Of are they inherent in our nature?

I beleive rights are inherent, and that the law, even the Law Of The Land, can do no more than recognize them.  In that case, enumeration or the lack thereof means nothing.

I have a right to arm myself wherever I have a right to be.

I have a right to be anywhere that 1) I own 2) no one owns 3) we all own.

I do not have a right to be anywhere someone else owns.  If I am allowed to be there, it is a priveledge, extended to me by the owner, by invitation.  The owner possesses the rights of and to that place.  If I choose to accept an invitation, I do it on their terms.  This is the same wih your house and a business.

Quoted: So now you are arguing that the non-enumerated private property rights of a business owner who is open for business with the PUBLIC AT LARGE should supercede the enumerated right to keep and bear arms? Which enumerated right would you like cancelled next when faced with entering a place of business?   It is irrelevant if other similar businesses decide not to infringe your rights. I have no desire to argue about this.  You either understand the concepts of liberty or you don't. Think about this though:  Where do rights come from?  Are they granted by the Constitution?  Or by the government?  Of are they inherent in our nature? I beleive rights are inherent, and that the law, even the Law Of The Land, can do no more than recognize them.  In that case, enumeration or the lack thereof means nothing. I have a right to arm myself wherever I have a right to be. I have a right to be anywhere that 1) I own 2) no one owns 3) we all own. I do not have a right to be anywhere someone else owns.  If I am allowed to be there, it is a priveledge, extended to me by the owner, by invitation.  The owner possesses the rights of and to that place.  If I choose to accept an invitation, I do it on their terms.  This is the same wih your house and a business.

Well said.  Remember, we fought a revolution before the Constitution was written, because our Founding Fathers felt that their "non-enumerated" rights were being violated.

By the way, if you are hung up on whether or not rights are specifically enumerated or not, I give you the Ninth Amendment (a little bit down the list from the Second, but who's counting?):

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Does that make you feel warm and fuzzy?

Quoted: While I hate the fact that signs are posted, I believe they have the right to post them if they choose. But I also feel that those caught carrying should only be able to be charged with a minor crime (like trespassing) and only if they refuse to leave.  The maxium fine should be no more than $10 or $15 and that's only if they refuse to leave.

ditto.  The property owner can say he doesn't want this or that, and if he catches you he can ask you to leave, if you don't your charged with trespassing. Thats exactly how it works here in KY. The end result is no one puts the signs up because its completely pointless to do it.  I'll check the valvoline over in Alexandria but I bet there is no sign, corp. policy or not.

A Felony charge for walking into the wrong place with your CCW piece (not using it, not brandishing it, just mindlessly walking into the wrong place) is moronic.

Honestly if I walk into an airport with one, the metal detector beeps, and then I go "oops!" they should tell me to go to my car (escort me out if needed) and I can return when unarmed.  These draconian punishments we have for what are really minor things is just stupid.  Welcome to the Police State.

Quoted: Quoted: While I hate the fact that signs are posted, I believe they have the right to post them if they choose. But I also feel that those caught carrying should only be able to be charged with a minor crime (like trespassing) and only if they refuse to leave.  The maxium fine should be no more than $10 or $15 and that's only if they refuse to leave. ditto.  The property owner can say he doesn't want this or that, and if he catches you he can ask you to leave, if you don't your charged with trespassing. Thats exactly how it works here in KY. The end result is no one puts the signs up because its completely pointless to do it.  I'll check the valvoline over in Alexandria but I bet there is no sign, corp. policy or not. A Felony charge for walking into the wrong place with your CCW piece (not using it, not brandishing it, just mindlessly walking into the wrong place) is moronic. Honestly if I walk into an airport with one, the metal detector beeps, and then I go "oops!" they should tell me to go to my car (escort me out if needed) and I can return when unarmed.  These draconian punishments we have for what are really minor things is just stupid.  Welcome to the Police State.

You mean we should try to be respectful of property rights and the law should be reasonable, and a mistake that doesn't hurt anyone should not be a felony?  hock.gif

That sounds like a good place to live.  

Pulled into the local Valvoline Instant Oil Change last night.  They removed the signs at this one.  It is located on Navarre Av in Oregon Oh.  I asked the attendant, and he said there was a serious shitstorm over the signs, so they removed them.

Quoted: Pulled into the local Valvoline Instant Oil Change last night.  They removed the signs at this one.  It is located on Navarre Av in Oregon Oh.  I asked the attendant, and he said there was a serious shitstorm over the signs, so they removed them.

Must be a local decision.  I was just by the one in Streetsboro, OH.  Sign is still there.  I hope they do the same thing here.

F the signs!

Quoted: F the signs!

+1

Quoted: Just ignore the fucking signs. When the shit hits the fan, its every man for himself and the gun-fearing pussies will be shitting their pants cowering behind their desks. Until business start putting metal detectors on entrances, I will not worry about some bullshit sign that tries to nullify my rights.

LOL.... idiot

Quoted: One of my cars has a locked box bolted to the floor, which always has a gun in it (in compliance with my CHL and Ohio law). I've been using a local Valvoline Instant Oil Change when I'm in a hurry for the last few years.  Yesterday, I was getting the oil changed on my wife's car (no gun in that car).  Usually, I never get out of the car while they are changing the oil.  This time, I had a few movies to return at the video store next to Valvoline, so I left my car and returned the videos.  On my way back, I had to come through the front door.  This was the first time I'd ever entered through the lobby, and much to my chagrin, they had a "no handgun" sign on the door. I confronted the manager about it, asking what the deal was.  He said it was a corporate policy.  I informed him that it is certainly the right of any business owner to make themselves a Criminal Protection Zone, but if they are going to do this, they should put the damn sign where 999 out of 1000 customers will see it, on the garage bay doors where they drive their vehicles into the oil change area.  I told him that I had a loaded gun on their property on numerous occasions, because I was ignorant of the policy (due to their choice of sign placement).  I also told him that this would be the last time I would do business with him, and it would be a good idea to move the damn sign. I followed up with their corporate customer service line, and found that this was indeed a nationwide corporate policy.  I submitted their name to OFCC's DWPWA database. Too bad, this place was convenient and they have always been professional.

It is YOUR responsibility to k now the laws of the business you use.   The sign being posted on the lobby door is legal, and will easily stand up in court.

Quoted: Quoted: Just ignore the fucking signs. When the shit hits the fan, its every man for himself and the gun-fearing pussies will be shitting their pants cowering behind their desks. Until business start putting metal detectors on entrances, I will not worry about some bullshit sign that tries to nullify my rights. LOL.... idiot

F U

on a lighter note.......

I stumbled across the Do Not Conceal Carry sign in the lobby of the Days Inn in Perrysburg, near Toledo. Luckily I wasn't carrying at the time, it was LATE and I had no choice but to stay overnight. I won't be back and didn't bother even mentioning it to the "idiot" running the checkout counter. She couldn't hardly handle the task at hand of finding my reservation WITH confirmation #,and getting me a key without major help from a co-worker. No manager was on duty either after I asked the co-worker. Do ALL Days Inn's have this policy as a corporate deal or is it just a local independant guy ????  anyone else run into these signs at any Days Inn??