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Posted: 8/20/2004 7:42:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 7:44:09 PM EDT by METALMAN]
Hey everybody,
I went looking around at a bunch of different 3 gun match and assorted weird matches (see second link), and was really impressed by some of the range etiquette, safety, and rules that govern these types of matches.

The first link:


is a 3 gun match that shows a bunch of different scenarios and types of COF designs I thought looked fun as well as challenging. Albeit, the 3 gun part is'nt what MODCC is about, that can be modified!!

The second link really is actually kinda funny, but I think the thing that struck me strongest was the immense range participation. If you watch each of the videos, you'll see that after each match, the shooter is required to clear the weapon, the range is cleared, then the whole group goes downrange to score/paste the targets.


I think this type of excersise should be endorsed by us.

All too often, as it has been blaringly pointed out, shoots have been run by a small group of volunteers. This needs to stop in my opinion. As a group we all need to step up and help every shoot. If it means just pasting, that helps!!!! But there are so many other jobs that need to be filled that are done so by those who know that nothing will get done with out SOME help.

Safety is the number one. Checking chamber flags (OK Jeff....bring it on), watching trigger discipline, mag clearing, gun clearing, muzzle sweeping, range clearing; all need to be done strictly and harshly...there is no room for error here folks!!!

Range operation: RO's to run with each shooter MUST be rotated periodically (barring an RO wanting to stay more than his/her alloted time)

Range understanding: Every shooter/RO needs to know what the range is, how it moves, and how to safely engage it. Course runthroughs may or may not be implemented.

Pasters: As you saw in the videos, people practically RAN downrange to see/repair the course resulting in a very fast and efficient shoot I am sure.
Pasters in our group, if it has to be that way, should be the next three designated shooters, not including the next on deck ( for example: Lief, Brad, Mike, Marshall and Oz are all in rotation. Leif runs the course. Finishes the course.Brad is next on deck (in the starting position unloaded with his RO) and is prepping his gear/weapon(s). Mike Marshall and Oz are all pasting Lief's shoot. Once all three pasters have returned with scores the range is cleared. Brad is then instructed to get ready for his shoot.

and so on and so on....

This seems to be a way for us to gain a little more organizatioon to each shoot. As well as drawing more attention to each shooter as they run the course. I think that awareness is the key. The more aware we are the better. And the more defined we are in the way we run the COF the better it will be for each shooter. This pretty much requires that each shooter participates in one/or more/or all of the positions needed to run the COF thus giving everyone a far better understanding of the COF and it's protocols.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add to these types of ideas here, and help us try to refine our group so that the shoots gain something more that just a 'fun time', we all know we have that, how can we not!!!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:59:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 10:02:43 PM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
There are several good ideas out there regarding the shoots that need to be implemented to make the shoots MORE fun. We've been talking about them for awhile, and I think its time to do them. I think we've reached a point where the informality of the shoots is actually hurting us to a certain extent. Here are the ideas that I think are ready to be implemented.

1. Each shoot needs to have a "range boss" who is the czar of the Course Of Fire. One head honcho who runs everyone else through the COF except for himself. This way there is an authority figure of some kind at the shoot who people can come to with questions and who can keep things moving along. There is actually a crapload of wasted time at the current shoots that happens because everyone is bullshitting and waiting for someone to organize things-- lets figure out who that person is ahead of time. It can be a different person each time so nobody becomes "king" of MODCC.


2. People who want to shoot the COF need to be at the COF's location. There has been alot of frustration with a Range Officer calling out "its Bob's turn... where's Bob?" "Oh he's at the other range shooting a machinegun, he said he'll be back in a minute..." and so forth. Lets try to have the people who want to run the COF all in one spot. This will increase the sense of community and fellowship (there's a term from my old church going days, lol!) among the shooters as they are there to cheer on their comrades. If you are not getting ready, shooting, or pasting targets, we can bullshit with each other like we always do, and yet not be wasting time. This will also encourage people to participate in the pasting of targets and the running of the shoot, instead of showing up to the COF to run it pretty much by themselves and then taking off immediately to go shoot a Sten gun.


3. Standardizing a few rules to firm up the scoring and make it a bit more of a competition wouldn't hurt. My ideas for the default rules: Two hits per target, be it thoracic cavity or headshot. A hit outside either of those two places is +3 seconds to your time. A miss is +10 seconds to your time. A hit hostage is +10 seconds to your time. People running the course with machineguns will get scored seperately and will not be part of the competition at large, and people running the course solely with a pistol will not be scored at all. (This is to prevent John from winning every time with his damn FN 5.7 pistol...) After all, its supposed to be the Missouri Defensive Carbine Club.


4. Influx of money to help build better courses of fire. Marshall has some excellent ideas about things to do with very inexpensive building materials, and I believe he can accomplish his goals with very little cash. We have a permanent place to run the shoots now, so mobility of the materials is no longer a factor. The materials that have been used in the past were largely destroyed by a rampaging Ent tree, so I believe that NOW is the time for people to kick in a bit of cash if they want to see a better MODCC in the future. There has been some discussion about a membership fee. I think a better alternative is to make those who shoot the COF pay for it with a nominal donation of $5 or so before each shoot. That's a hell of alot less than you'd pay to enter a high-power competition or an IPSC or IDPA pistol competition, and it wouldn't take long at all to raise the $100 or so that is needed to buy some cheap but more permanent building materials for Marshall and others to work with.


5. Newbies--everyone wants to bring a friend who hasn't shot before to the shoot. Unfortunately there have been a few close calls and some bad experiences with new shooters, including one that I personally brought who really rubbed some people the wrong way. I don't know what to do about the new shooters per se, but I do know that Mousegun87 is going to have a cardiac arrest if he gets another muzzle pointed at him, and nobody wants that. Someone else needs to come up with a plan for the newbie shooter that is safe, workable, and yet allows them to participate and want to come back.

At the same time, I'm also open to any ideas about how to get more MO members coming out to the shoots. I remember when we first started having the shoots, there were more AR15.com people showing up than there are now. Now there are a few AR15.com people, a few newbies, some CMMG customers who want to try out their toys, and a usually at least one SOT type with a truck full of machineguns to rent out (aside from Jeff and John). We even have a vendor now who brings a table full of ammo and a nice tent to provide shade, but where are all the MO members of old? Where are the St. Louis crew?

The truth is, I'm not driving 2 hours plus to shoot a course of fire that I could just as easily make up by myself at the local conservation range if nobody else was there to bother me. I'm driving all that way to see FRIENDS, so see people that I enjoy hanging out with, shooting with, and competing with. How can I encourage more of them to drive out and see me?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:28:30 PM EDT
I'm new to the board here, and I've only been to one shoot (Mike's "batchelor party" shoot), but I thought I'd throw a few of my comments out.

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

4. Influx of money to help build better courses of fire. Marshall has some excellent ideas about things to do with very inexpensive building materials, and I believe he can accomplish his goals with very little cash. We have a permanent place to run the shoots now, so mobility of the materials is no longer a factor. The materials that have been used in the past were largely destroyed by a rampaging Ent tree, so I believe that NOW is the time for people to kick in a bit of cash if they want to see a better MODCC in the future. There has been some discussion about a membership fee. I think a better alternative is to make those who shoot the COF pay for it with a nominal donation of $5 or so before each shoot. That's a hell of alot less than you'd pay to enter a high-power competition or an IPSC or IDPA pistol competition, and it wouldn't take long at all to raise the $100 or so that is needed to buy some cheap but more permanent building materials for Marshall and others to work with.

I'm certainly willing to chip in some $$$. I think it would definitely be worth it. I had a lot of fun and I didn't even run a COF. That stupid tree had to go and knock it down, and the new shooting area was still under construction for the shoot I came to.

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

5. Newbies--everyone wants to bring a friend who hasn't shot before to the shoot. Unfortunately there have been a few close calls and some bad experiences with new shooters, including one that I personally brought who really rubbed some people the wrong way. I don't know what to do about the new shooters per se, but I do know that Mousegun87 is going to have a cardiac arrest if he gets another muzzle pointed at him, and nobody wants that. Someone else needs to come up with a plan for the newbie shooter that is safe, workable, and yet allows them to participate and want to come back.

I'll definitely second this because I fall into the "newbie" category. The shoot seemed to be very informal and the new people (like me) really weren't given much, if any, direction or instruction. That's probably because most of you know each other pretty well, and have been getting together for shoots like this for quite some time now. The new people like me don't have all of that experience though, and I know I certainly would have felt a lot more comfortable had a had a little more instruction/direction at the beginning of the shoot. Just some thoughts from a newbie.

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

At the same time, I'm also open to any ideas about how to get more MO members coming out to the shoots. I remember when we first started having the shoots, there were more AR15.com people showing up than there are now. Now there are a few AR15.com people, a few newbies, some CMMG customers who want to try out their toys, and a usually at least one SOT type with a truck full of machineguns to rent out (aside from Jeff and John). We even have a vendor now who brings a table full of ammo and a nice tent to provide shade, but where are all the MO members of old? Where are the St. Louis crew?

I guess I qualify as a St. Louis crew newbie, eh? I had a lot of fun at the first shoot I went to and definitely want to make some more of these. I'm going to try to make the next one if possible.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 4:42:12 AM EDT
im afraid i don't have much to add. the only thing that gets my goat. is the pasting. it has been the same pastors from the get go. ME, MOUSEGUN and a few others. even when i was video taping and not running the course. i pasted. i shoot less at the shoots than anybody. im to busy watching people. i will be at the next shoot. i probably will not run the coff. i will also bringing a newbie. i all ready told him he probably wont be able to run the cof. i don't think his skills is there. he even use a weapon in his job and i don't think his skills is there. i throw at least 5 bucks in the till each time. i don't know. i do know were on the border of self imploding. i hate to say it but i think some of the original ar15.com shoots. the first once i had more fun. i don't know. im also afraid im not much help. i also come to see Duke and Mouse, Eric and Metal man , when he shows. i also come to deal with Jeff/John and talk to said members. since i can count my friends on 1 hand now. so i guess just ignore my ramblings. if we do make a committee those people must be there. period. i can count on my hand the # of people that's the same at every shoot. you have to take me off that list since i had to work last shoot. like i said i don't know. its Saturday im trying not to think. Ronald
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 7:12:18 AM EDT
Bluenote: Erik will be coming to the next shoot, its on the 18th, and I'm sure he'd love to bring you along.

Ron-- nobody can make ALL the shoots, I missed the last one, and alot of people (like poor Kpel) are working weekends and such. But fewer AR15.com people are showing up it seems. The only way to get more people to show up is to show them that the shoot will be worth the drive over.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 7:14:21 AM EDT
I know what you guys mean. It definitely is not the same as it was in the beginning. I still enjoy the shoots but I have to admit the drive is wearying. I have wondered if we are becoming a victim of our own success. We started a really great thing and word has gotten around. I do not know the answer though. I don't think it will ever be possible to have that small group feel where everyone knows everyone else. It has become an monthly organized shoot in need of a committe or
some such to control instead of the "just a bunch of friends getting together" thing we had.
It would be nice if we could have secondary groups and places locally to have meets but I don't see that happening.
Guys, I understand and I feel the same but what can we do? any ideas?
I have much more to say but am busy right now, I will add more later.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 7:51:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 8:10:13 AM EDT by METALMAN]
OK so with all that heres a way we may also gain some orginization each shoot: A schedule for the shoot.

8:00am-All crew to help set-up the COF arrives and begins assembly
9:00am-Crew sets up all silhouettes for COF
9:30am-crew does walkthrough to ensure all shots are downrange and safe

(all of the above can be done the week before by anyone who is willing to volunteer. It would give us more time to make a strong COF and give the creators a chance to run it in a very casual manner. All crew involved in this must pitch in in the build to run the course ahead of time. I know this eliminates a lot of people from making the build, but it might be nice to just show up at 9am and start the COF rather than try and do it in a rush.)

10:00am-Sign up for first COF run, all competitiors get their gear and weapons ready
10:30am-COF starts its first run, COF will be run until noon for lunch. Before MODCC members break for lunch all members who wish to participate in a second (third) run are required to sign up before the lunch break.

12:00pm-Lunch break
12:30pm- COF resumes until end of day.

Here are also some ground rules that I think might help the day run much smoother:
1. If you sign up for the COF and your turn comes up while you are not present, you will be skipped. No exceptions.

2. Every member running the COF will be 'on deck' before the run, the RO will be readying that member.

3. Next member running the COF (while the first is out on the range running the COF) will make ready 'on deck' with their RO.

4. Each member while 'on deck' will have a mag ready in hand. When it comes time for that mambers run, the RO will instruct the shooter to 'make ready' which means: insert mag into weapon BUT DO NOT CHARGE FIRST ROUND! Have weapon on safe. Have weapon pointed in the downrange(or direction of COF course run) direction. Once a 'clear range' has been called the RO will then start the next run by calling 'shooter ready?'. Shooter will reply 'ready!'. RO will then start timer/timing by either verbal or audible beep (depending if we have one of those cool shot timers that was brought to the last shoot.) Shooter will then chamber first round after run begins and begin COF.

5. Pasters will be the next three shooters 'NOT' on deck! This ensures everyone pastes and is fair.

6. Scoring by pasters will be communicated by each paster. As the pasters repair the last run, each 'MISS' is logged by each paster. Pasters should not communicate with the other pasters to avoid confusion. Each paster will then report to the BOSS on the last run, (or whomever is holding the clip board), and report any misses as : MISS (target has one shot missed), HOSTAGE (A 'friendly' is shot), or NO SHOT (meaning the target was not engaged at all)

7. Just to clarify misses: All misses have to be TOTALLY out of the target area. All shots on the dotted line count, even if its a hair on the line!!! This should eliminate squbbling over a hit or miss.

8. I will build it: A dry erase board will be left at the range to record all of the COF scores and post the lineup. This will be so everyone can look at each run safely behing the COF while the master list will be reported to the board each run.

I as well really like the idea of BOSSES and Czars during the shoots.
'THE' boss might be the one who holds the clipboard and records all that goes on.

I think that each RO is an autonomous entity who is focused on his/her own shooter at that moment, monitoring safety, and timing that member's run.

I also think that it might be nice to have a SAFETY CZAR (Oz?) that will maintain a safe environment 'behind' the COF. Watching muzzles, chamber flags, trigger discipline and magazines. This would be like a double safety measure on top of the whole group doing this thoughtlessly. WE ARE OUR OWN POLICE!!!

COF CZAR: A person to organize and build the COF at his/her leisure. The COF is the focus so it should be strong and finished at the time of the shoot. I have no problem adopting this position initially. If someone (Brad,Lief) wants to usurp me for a build then awesome!!! The COF CZAR will also be the person who collects the cash for the builds each shoot. I think to make it clear to all members how much cash is generated each shoot, it [the cash] will be stapled to a board (the dry erase board's back) during the shoot with each member's name (either real or ArFCOM) printed on their donation. This will be recorded, and when the CZAR goes to buy materials, the receipt will be posted the next shoot to let all members know how their donation was spent!
Also I think that the COF be run as many times as people feel comfortable with (this goes especially for all Bosses, czars, and RO's) As many of us have other obligations that make us human, we must agree when to "STOP"!! A stop will be determined by all. So far we have made a max of three runs in one day. That was with very small numbers so it makes sense. But when/and if the numbers start to rise again two, or even one run may be all we can handle (depending on orginization, COF design, and sheer people attending).

Once the stop has been reached, the shoot is over and everyone who wishes to remain and 'blast' may, with CMMG's permission. But at this point all Bosses,RO's and Czars are off the clock!! This ensures a atmosphere of self regulation, and allows the bosses,etc to get home or wherever they need to be.

I think that we need to appoint these positions to people BEFORE the shoots. Online of course. So all ARFCOMMErs will know what is what and who is who. It might be nice to post their picture under their title too so that those new to the shoots will know who to look for for questions and such.

I think this is a very important thread for us that needs to be honed and defined clearly so that all know where they stand, and how things will get done. The next shoot may be the best way to do this, but if we cant get enough people to the range who will commit to a certain amount of time we might have to figgure out it a liitle better for the shoot after this next one.


During the shoot itself, I have to remind, we need the RO/shooter/3 pasters/next shooter/next RO to all be present during all the COF. Everyone else can go to the other range to sight in or rent machine guns, but again if you miss your turn, thats it.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:48:20 PM EDT
Duke i know were your coming from. I know everybody cant make every shoot. me included. i didn't mean it that way. i agree with you. maybe we need a committee. a group of people that rule and judge. create the laws and rules. that way if there is a problem we know who to go to. a board of directors so to speak. what you think. Ronald
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:50:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 8:39:47 AM EDT by Shi_Huang_Di]
How about this:

(finally set it up to post pics)

(edit - I just put it together quick in a .doc and used "snag-it", but I will clean it up and add rows. Just cheching to see if it will work?)

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:09:30 AM EDT
Very nice... we'll need more rows than that of course, but that's great!
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:10:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 9:15:29 AM EDT by AFSOC]
I have not yet attended a shoot, but I expect to attend the next one.
I have shot tactical shoots before, I am aware of range safety.
If the powers that be desire that I not shoot the course I will still attend and observe.
I would recommend that for each shoot that a RM (Range master) be appointed.
This individual will have the final say so on everything period not negotiable.

An RSO( Range Safety officer) or more than one. these persons will be responsible for safety behind the firing line. (Is a clearing tube or barrel available?)
I.E. loading and unloading and clearance of weapons entering and leaving the range.
Establish an "On Deck" zone/ Loading table where an RSO will be stationed to verify clear weapons. I understand clear chamber tags are already in use, for firearms moving around outside of the course. Further everyone who is behind the firing line is responsible for safety if you see someone doing something in an unsafe manner "POLITELY" correct it, if the person refuses correction, then notify the RSO who will get the matter corrected.

RO will be responsible for on range safety and timing this person will be required to call out safety infractions on the range the individual firing the course requires his undivided attention to call out
finger on trigger infractions and other issues at his discretion, his rulings on the course can only be appealed to the RM who's word is final.

The range officials need to have distinctive attire best bet is a simple Orange safety vest and or possibly a Red hat. setting these folks apart from the crowd. I would be willing to purchase either of these Or both and volunteer my services at shoots, I love to shoot but I hate to be shot.......

Consider the use of 2 way radios between the officials.

Each person who attends should be glad to donate funds if not then they probably should not attend, perhaps an incentive to get folks there, would be to offer no entry for Newbies, and an all Newbie day (orientation) wherein New shooters could run the course at their own pace without a timer so they could learn the basics, With an experienced shooter attached to their hip. This would be good in the week prior to the shoot. That way you will have fewer inexperienced folks the day of the shoot. A range section set aside where a new shooter could fire without movement so an RO or appointed Old hand could show that person the errors of their ways in relative safety. So that these folks can learn sidearm transitions and reload proceedures without stress. and hone their basic skills. and Hopefully purge bad habits. (My Brother in law is 36 years old and I still yell at him about finger in triggerguard........) We all have bad habits.......
Post the four rules of safe firearm handling EVERYWHERE, the last shoot I hosted I had shirts made for the Range officials with these rules on the back and the 1* on the front.

Pasters, well, these should all be newbies who should be oriented the morning of the shoot and given a stack of target scorecards (Each shooter should receive a copy of the appropriate file which could be printed out, and bring copies with him/her to the shoot) this way we hold down the range operators costs andd thus our own. and we get the newbies in the fight from the start.

Consider "Member" cards that each shooter should receive that have a Qualification to pass.
Signed off by the Ranger operators once a new shooter has demonstrated his ability to safely negotiate the course. I noticed mention earlier of door prizes or raffle tickets, this is a great idea to get folks to attend. Another Idea would be to post some videos or stills of the shoot so that folks who have not been there could see what they are missing.

I have read mention of name tapes or patches I think this is a great idea perhaps a reward for shooting a "clean" course or after 5 consecutive shoots.....

Some of my questions about these shoots have always been is there a fee?
What kind of safety is in place?
What kind of timers are used?
I have my own that I will gladly bring if more equipment is needed at an event.
I have access to an EZ-Up shelter which I will gladly bring too.
Also what type of ammunition is permitted?
I have no problems with showing up early to assist in range setup, or staying late to help with teardown.

Feel free to tear apart my ideas at your leisure.

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:12:19 AM EDT
looks great! i really like it. Ronald
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:27:19 AM EDT
More Ideas,

A COF map should be provided to each person signing up for the shoot.
Each person who is signed up should be given a roster number.
When people are called there should be three strikes and you are out rule
If you are not available when it is your turn to shoot then you will be skipped after 3 attempts
All rules on DQs and etc should be posted and handed to each prospective shooter.
Scoring.... There is usually no need to debate this if there is no money on the line or in the event of a tie, perhaps on the scorecards should be target diagrams..... so the pasters could mark the position on the card.
Minor suggestions.

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:45:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:52:32 AM EDT by Shi_Huang_Di]
Is somebody collecting all this great information? Also a good source is the FDCC site also:

(edit - hey Kpel308, once this is collected it may need to be posted?)

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 1:47:36 PM EDT
I know that I love the shoots (what part of them I can attend at least). I remember a real anti-organization bias when these things were first getting off the ground. ("there is no MODCC only individuals" etc.) It was never a bias against safety, but just one against having any real structure to the group . Are we abandoning that? I don't see that getting more organized is a bad thing, but if it has turned people off we ought to at least think about the situation.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:36:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 5:38:37 AM EDT by Miranthis]
speaking of timers....does anyone yet have a pact timer? I may just go ahead an buy one, as I need to replce my old one, but then have not been able to make two shoots in a row yet.

I really think that a pact timer is the why to go over the old stop watch deal.

How about a few weeks before the shoot we get a head count of definates and maybes and get peoople some idea of what their job will be. It will run more smothly if the people with jobs know it ahead of time. Of course everyone needs ot help score, past and collect brass (for those of us that do that sort of thing).

I'm all in for organizing the shoots, but have my resevations about organizing MODCC proper. If we are going to go that way we have a lot of annoying details to worry about.

P.S. Nobody really responded about the name tapes so i went ahead and got some from 1800nametapes.com. I got safety oragnge letters on black tape. I sewed an MODCC and one with my user name on my camelback. I;'ll have that at teh sept shoot if anyone wants to see how they turned out.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:12:06 AM EDT
All the points stated here are very good. However, not all the shooters who attend MODCC shoots are ARFcom members. In the old days, the majority (if not all) shooters who came were ARFcom members. So rules, gears, and other preparations were discussed in this forum prior to the shoot. So the shooters showed up informed which help organize things more easily on the fly. So, Miranthis, we were able to do it last year without too much organization because the majority of our members were connected by this forum. Not so today. In my observation, most of the shooters who attend MODCC shoot these days are not ARFcom members. So what we discuss here may not reach them prior to the shoot. We will be looking at situations where some of the shooters intend to follow or implement certain rules and regulations, while others just dont have a clue what those rules and regulations are. We need to reach these shooters and involve them in our discussion. But I dont know how.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:20:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 8:21:41 AM EDT by Miranthis]
Short of going the route of incorporating and forming a "real" club so we can promulgate a newsletter or something I don't know how we reach the non-net shooters. Absent a clearly defined club structure and creation of a new legal entity (LLC, Corp or the like) I think that there is some risk in being part of the organization. For instance if someone AD/ND's and gets hurt/ hurts anohter the cast of potential defendants includes not only CMMG and all the individuals that are associated with th match organization and adminestration but also MODCC. What now is MODCC? Basically an unincorporated partnership between "members". Judgments can go after personal assets of the "partners/members" in situations like that. I know that we all like to think that it can't happen to us, but it is something to think about...

Also, WHY are there fewer Board members attending shoots? Is it just that there are more non-board people there, or are we really loosing board members? Unfortunately, I only make about 3 to 4 shoots a year, so I don't have a good base line. What can we do to appeal to a wide enough group of people that we all have fun and there are plenty to share the work load but we're not so big that we run too many people off? All good questions that I am afraid I do not have an easy answer to.

Right now we are sounding like a many-headed hydra. We need to pick a course and get back to having fun and putting on good shoots.

my 2 cents, YMMV...
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:31:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 12:32:18 PM EDT by HellioN]
I have been missing the shoots coz of A scedual change at work.
Beleive me, If I thought I could go 24+ hours with no sleep and still maintain proper safety I would do it.
And the current price of gas don't help the drive from St.L either.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:20:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 2:33:42 PM EDT by AFSOC]
I actually have a westerner timer with a remote wireless large number display.
(also works with my Fastdraw timer) the actual timer is small like the pact and has a belt clip so that the user can self start or have the timer on them as they move.)

I have used it for IPSC/IDPA/CAS stuff.

Display on wall

Displays on stands

Also have folks who attend "sign in" Provide Name, address, Phone number and E-Mail address
This way it is realatively easy to post bulk E-mail invitations or even mailers(though more costly)

speaking of timers....does anyone yet have a pact timer? I may just go ahead an buy one, as I need to replce my old one, but then have not been able to make two shoots in a row yet.

I really think that a pact timer is the why to go over the old stop watch deal.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 2:40:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 3:01:48 PM EDT by Liveforfunjim]
wow! ok i know i should of followed this thread more closely because now i have alot of reading to do... Is it a bad thing if i dont make it all the way through reading this thread? HAHA
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:01:23 PM EDT
ok i got the jist..my thought:

I think getting MODCC more oragnized is a great idea. Turning it into a real club with leaders(board) newsletters ets. I know i would be willing to pay to help this out.

The CMMG shoot also would benefite from better organization. I think a more strict scoring to make make it more competitive would do us wonders. I also would be willing to pay say 5$ a person per shoot (possibly less for just visitors, not shooting). Or maybe 4 or less for MODCC members and full for newbies, something.

As far as running the shoots. I know i dont mind pasting ever round. Gives me a chance to see how the shooter did first hand, and how his tactics worked for him. However i do notice that not alot of poeple are eager to past. Maybe a rotation of sorts wouldnt hurt.

About the newbie saftey thing.. I think thats the responsibility of the person who brings the newb. Its there job to inform them of gun saftey before they get to the range! Then when we do our saftey meeting and they here it again from John/Jeff Hopefully it will sink in. Other then that hope fully after we get organized and all the newer folks and older folks know each other, it will be easier to point out the newbs and we all can keep and eye out for them regarding saftey. Not to mention they shouldnt have a gun unless closely supervised.

Im sure ill have more but im tired....
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:44:18 PM EDT
Alright now I feel bad.
I really wanted for the shoots to gain more organization and safety. But it seems that it is rather off putting to many. I don't want MODCC to not be fun anymorre, quite the contrary, I want it to be more fun, more involved, and for more people to see the kick ass time we have!!!I WANT people to help because they want to, rather than feel they have too. Some are born leaders, some like to follow, both go hand in hand.
I think anything I stated before is all on a volunteer basis. I don't mind, but obviously there are people who are afraid that it may become larger than they want to.
I feel like a new member so this probably wasn't a good idea on my part, maybe I should have been asked rather than volunteer this kind of thing.
I have had more fun in this group that most people know. The shoot, and the social aspect of it are really appealing and challenging.
The last thing I want is for ANYONE to get sued. Thats just stupid...I would rather people be responsible for their own actions...but then again this is America and we see all too often the legal system twisted into something that is more despicable than helpful, especially when it comes to suits.
How about this...make all these suggestions, and whom,ever wants to act on them can...
I'm gonna build no matter what, so I am happy! And if I can shoot, I am even happier.

Most of my friends know to take me with a grain of salt....they as well know I can be a freight train running out of control if I am let loose...I'll have to reign it in from now on I think.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:26:08 PM EDT
Remember that the following are rules in use at a Canadian Club.
I liked them so I post them here as a suggestion.
Interestingly they have an interesting course of fire posted on their sight and I will reprint it here in it's entirety if anyone would be interested.
Trust me if you see it it will most assuredly be of interest to you!

Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0
1. The intent of the league is to be as inclusive as possible for shooters interested in fast paced exciting matches. You require a centre fire rifle/carbine, and handgun. If you don’t have a centre fire rifle/carbine, a subgun can be used. Whatever a shooter has can be used unless there is a safety concern.

2. Safety is the first consideration and it is taken very seriously. It is important that you have a full understanding of the safety rules prior to any match. If you have any question concerning the safety procedures, please contact one of the Range Officers as soon as possible. A detailed understanding of the rules will help you and everyone else around have a safe and fun time. There is no excuse for an unsafe act with a firearm.
1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded!
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target!
4. Know your target and what is beyond!

3. We run the range with everyone's rifles and pistols unloaded, chamber clear and magazines out. You are only allowed to load a firearm when you are under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. Pistols can be carried cleared and holstered. Long arms can be carried slung provided they are cleared, and ideally a chamber flag inserted. When it is your turn to shoot, you will be called forward with your unloaded gun to the firing line. You will then follow the instructions of the Range Officer. We use a number of Range commands you need to know well:
a."RANGE IS LIVE" means we are getting ready to shoot. Only the shooter should have a gun in hand. Everyone needs to have their eye and ear protection on when they hear the RANGE IS LIVE command. A red flag is normally raised to indicate that we are live.

b. "RANGE IS CLEAR" means we are done shooting and people will be going down range. At this point, the shooter’s rifle is unloaded and we go and score the targets. Again, no one is holding any firearms at this point nor making any adjustments on a firearm. The red flag is normally lowered to indicate the range is clear.

c. “SHOOTER TO THE LINE” means if you are next to shoot, the Range Officer is calling you forward. Ensure you have your hearing and eye protection, as well as your firearms and necessary ammunition. If you know you are next it is a good idea to get yourself ready so it will speed up the relays otherwise we all have to watch you find all your gear.
Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0

d. “DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE COURSE OF FIRE?” means we want to make sure that you have an understanding of what you have to do for the stage. If you do not have a clear understanding, you need to ask now before you begin shooting. It is OK to clarify information if you are not sure. It is much better to ask a question so you start the stage properly prepared than make an error that could injure someone. If you are not sure, ask.

e. “LOAD AND MAKE READY” means you can load your firearm(s) under the direct supervision of the Range Officer. You may use a magazine to load a round in the chamber of either your long arm or pistol and then load a fully loaded magazine unless the course of fire expressly specifies the state of the chamber to begin the stage.

f. “STAND BY” is your warning that you are just about to get the go signal as brief for the stage.

g. “FIRE” or “WATCH AND SHOOT” or “IN YOUR OWN TIME, xx rounds, GO ON” or SOUND THE BUZZER. This is the signal for you to start the stage. The start signal can vary according to competition and available equipment. You will be briefed on what to expect and if you are not sure you should ask when the Range Officer asks if you understand the course of fire. You may fire on your assigned targets once you receive the start signal as briefed in the course of fire. This is normally a buzzer from a timer or a verbal command.

h. “IF YOU ARE FINISHED, UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR” One firearm at a time you will unload and show that the chamber is clear to the Range Officer. Ensure you have removed and stowed any magazines. During your unload ensure that your firearm is pointed down range at all times and does not sweep yourself or the Range Officer.

i. “GUN CLEAR” The Range Officer will tap you on the shoulder and tell you “GUN CLEAR” once he/she is satisfied the chamber is indeed clear.

j. “HAMMER DOWN AND HOLSTER” You will aim your firearm down range and pull the trigger to demonstrate that the chamber is indeed empty. If fitted with magazine safety for your particular firearm, you will insert an empty magazine and then aim your firearm down range and pull the trigger. If it is a handgun you will holster your firearm. If it is a long gun you will insert the chamber marker and sling the rifle so the barrel is point up or down and retire from firing point as directed by the Range Officer.

k. "MUZZLE" means you are breaking Safety Rule #2. If you hear someone say MUZZLE, it means that you are sweeping something with the muzzle of your firearms that you shouldn't be or you are going to break 90 degrees from the bearing of fire. When you hear this command, correct yourself
Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0
immediately. Breaking of the 90 degree safety area will result in a match DQ. Mentally think about where your muzzle is during the stage. It is a real world requirement and you best get use to good muzzle control.

l. "FINGER" means you are breaking Safety Rule #3 and your finger is on the trigger when it should not be. If you hear someone say FINGER, immediately remove your finger from the trigger guard. This is important to develop an instinct where your finger remains outside of the trigger guard until you are mentally going through your procedure checklist before firing.

m. “STOP, CEASE FIRING OR CHECK FIRING”. These are emergency instructions from the Range Officer. You will cease all shooting, place your firearm on safe and look immediately to the Range Officer for instructions. Remain in your position and follow precisely the instructions given to you by the Range Officer.

4. Additionally some notes on the use of the Range. Firstly our priority is always safety – everything else is of a secondary importance. If it is not safe…don’t do it. No firearm is loaded unless you are under the direct supervision of a Range Officer and he/she has given you the appropriate order. We are not interested in gamesmanship. This is a martial art. You can request a reshoot if range props or equipment fails, but not if your gear fails or you do not follow the course of fire. If your firearm or gear fails, consider it a free lesson. The “Ninety Degree Rule” is designed to ensure your safety and the safety of others. You must maintain control of the muzzle of your firearm at all times and will result in a match disqualification if you fail to do so.

5. You must be familiar with your firearms and the safe operation of them. If you are not sure, ask before you are called to the firing line. The Range Officers would be happy to take the time to review the correct handling drills and procedures for your firearm if you are unsure. Always be alert for malfunctions of your ammunition. A pop instead of a bang could indicate that a squib load has placed a projectile in your barrel. If you load another round and fire, you could have a serious accident. Stop immediately and follow the instructions of theRange Officer.
6. Firearms that have an excessively light trigger, or have been extensively modified by the owner in such a way, which brings into question the safety and reliability of the firearm maybe prohibited from use. The league reserves the right to restrict any firearm if the safety of its function is in question. If you have any doubts, ask as soon as possible.Remember safety is our first priority.
7. You are required to complete all stages with the same firearms, and maintain them in the same configuration throughout the match. If your rifle/carbine/subgun or handgun
3/8 Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0
has a serious malfunction, and is no longer serviceable, you can substitute another firearm at the discretion of the league. It is not the intent that the shooter has the option to switch between firearms for better performance during the different stages.

8. Holsters must carry handguns safely and securely. Handguns will be holstered with the hammer down on an empty chamber with the magazine removed. If this means a thumb break cannot be used until the handgun is loaded then so be it. Holsters, which require the operator to sweep himself or break 90 degrees to draw, are unsuitable for use. Chat with a Range Officer for clarification if you are in doubt.

9. The Safety Table plays an important role on the range. This is where firearms are uncased, holstered, cleaned, or adjusted. These tasks are NOT carried out behind the firing line at anytime. Do not play with your firearms behind the firing line. Your pistol will be holstered and your rifle/carbine/subgun slung or left at the safety table area. Your pistol will be hammer down, chamber clear and the magazine removed while holstered. Your slung rifle/carbine/subgun will have the action to the rear and ideally a chamber flag in place. No live ammo is handled at the Safety Table. Live ammo can be handled everywhere else. It is OK to load your magazines behind the firing line. If you have any questions on what you can and can not do, ask one of the Range Officers for clarification.

10. The matches are designed to be fun and exciting but gamesmanship should not over power good tactics. The stages are intended to practice your martial shooting skills however it is up to you to make the most it. We encourage you to do your best and take full advantage of opportunity to shoot. It is not about winning, it is about doing things in a tactically sound manner but most of all doing it safely.
11. Matches only work if people participate and help out. When you are not shooting it is considered good manners to assist the setting up and patching of the targets following other shooters. Your assistance will make things go much faster. Please help out and do your part.
12. We will also offer personal reshoots at the end of the day if time is available. The opportunity to conduct reshoots will cost $3 per stage. The fees will be put in a fund to pay for more interesting target arrays for future shoots. The reshoots are an opportunity for you to retry the stage and see if you can do better or correct a mistake you made. The reshoots are for fun and are NOT added or replace your original score. The intent is to give you an opportunity to retry the course of fire, which may have highlighted a weakness in your training or equipment. Take advantage of the opportunity if it is available. 4/8
Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0

13. Although this is a friendly competition, and there is nothing to win, we still do keep score. Scoring works as follows: a. The amount of time it takes you to finish the course of fire is your base time recorded in minutes, seconds and 10ths of a second using a stopwatch. A stopwatch is used because many of the shooting timers will give false reading due to the proximity of the other stages. Also we have sufficient stopwatch for each stage. Time stops when the last target is completely engaged. Most stages terminate with steels pepper poppers or steel plate engage with handgun. If not the course of fire will indicate how time is stopped if not by steel. b. Each hostile target needs to have two shots to the vital area to be considered a “stop”. The only exception to this is making a head shot on the target. If there is any one shot to the head, this is considered a “stop”. We use IDPA, IPSC style targets or Fig 11s and 12s as targets in matches depending what is available. These have a perforated "vital area" circle in the upper chest area or a marked area designating the vital area. Any shot in that vital area is considered a hit and no extra time is added to your base time. c. Any shot outside of the vital area on an engagable target adds one second to your base time. d. Any shots that completely miss the target will add 5 seconds to your base time. You are accountable for all your rounds just like in the real world. You will be required to indicate the number of rounds you have on you for the stage to the Range Officer at the beginning prior to starting the stage. At the completion of the stage, you will be required to confirm the amount remaining once the Range Officer clears you. This will verify the number of rounds you fired. e. If you shoot a no-shoot target, you zero the stage and do not get a base time score. You are responsible for each and every round you fire. f. If you fail to stop a target with two rounds to the vital area or one to the head, and you continue with the stage, you will zero the stage and not get a time. You failed to “stop” the target and were engage by the target as you moved by thus a score of zero. g. If you fail to change magazines behind cover or fail to use cover in an engagement, you will receive a 25 second penalty for each occurrence. The intent is to use cover properly and in many cases the stage will force you to seek cover. Use cover properly especially when you are changing magazines or dealing with a malfunction. 5/8
Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0

14. If you have a rifle/carbine/subgun malfunction during a match, you can transition to handgun and continue the stage but you need to stop all targets to have a score. The malfunction, which disables your rifle/carbine/subgun, must have legitimately occurred during the stage. You cannot just decide to transition to your handgun from your rifle/carbine/subgun especially in an attempt to score better. An example. During a stage you approach a close target and suddenly after the first shot your carbine jams with a double feed. You are a metre from the target. Good tactics would dictate you transition to your handgun and immediately deal with the targets. Once you have stopped the immediate threat, you seek cover, place the handgun on safe, reholster, then remedy the malfunction and continue the stage with your rifle/carbine/subgun in accordance with the course of fire.
15. When you are required to transition to handgun as part of the course of fire or you are forced to because of a malfunction of your rifle/carbine/subgun, you will have two options: a. If the transition is mandatory in the course of fire, there will be a designated place for you to place your firearm down with the barrel pointing down range with the safety applied or the action open. This well free up your hands to transition to the handgun and allow you to adopt a traditional two handed stance. If the transition is not mandatory, you can place the rifle/carbine/subgun on the ground with the barrel pointing down range with the safety applied or the action open. Regardless of whether it is mandatory transition or not, the rifle/carbine/subgun is to be place so the muzzle of the barrel is forward of the shooter. The shooter is not allowed to advance forward of the muzzle and must move the rifle/carbine/subgun if they need to reposition themselves. The shooter should be cautious to ensure no obstructions are placed in the barrel when you place the rifle/carbine/subgun on the ground particularly if the ground is wet or muddy. If there is any doubt, err on the side of caution and stop to ensure it is safe to carry on. b. The second option is to retain the rifle/carbine/subgun in your hand and draw your handgun with the free hand. This may be required if you have opted to use a tactical sling or you have decided to not place the rifle/carbine/subgun on the ground. You must maintain control of the rifle/carbine/subgun at all times. If the design of the tactical sling supports the firearm in a manner that will keep it from fanning any part of your body and maintains the 90-degree rule, it may be used. In this case, the technique and sling must be demonstrated and approved prior to use by the Range Officers. Approval is based on the technique and safety of the transition drill. It is important to remember with this option, that the barrel must still be pointed in a safe direction at all times and the 90-degree rule applies to both handgun and rifle/carbine/subgun. The Range Officer will stop you if your movement becomes unsafe. 6/8
Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0
Many of the modern tactical slings and some of the military/LE training drills make it difficult or impossible to conduct the transition drill without at some point the rifle/carbine/subgun breaking the 90-degree rule or fanning a body part. For the safety of all, and considering the varied training level of the shooters, the 90-degree rule will predominate. The two options remain as the safest ways to conduct the drill without sacrificing the realistic nature of the stages.

16. Now that you have read some of the rules and such, what do you need to be able to participate? All you need is a center fire rifle, carbine or subgun, at least four magazines, and at least 100 rounds. A handgun is required and should be a minimum of 9mm/38 caliber, as you will need to shoot steel plates and poppers with it. Suitable pouches, bags or pockets are required to carry your ammo and a safe holster will allow you to transition easily to your handgun. A carry sling is helpful but should not restrict your long arm from being able to be positioned safely during transition drills. Good boots, gloves, knee and elbow pads are recommended but not required. In some cases, the stage may specify some gear that is required such as gloves, or flashlight for example. Read the course of fire instruction carefully so you have all the required gear. The League’s intent is to make the shoots available to as many shooters as possible regardless of what they have on hand. The important thing is spending the day on the range having some fun with others and hopefully introducing others to the shooting sports. If you are missing a piece of kit, no worries as many others would happily lend you a pair of gloves or a flashlight for the stage. 17. There are no separate classes or categories, you shoot what you have and so does everyone else. Iron sight shooters will compete right along side those with optics, but don't think you will absolutely be at an advantage if you show up with a totally tricked out AR15, or you will be at a disadvantage if you come with a bone stock SKS. Your gear rarely makes a difference in these types of shoots. The shooter who thinks quickly and clearly while shooting straight usually is the one to come out on top regardless of what rifle they are they shoot with. Don’t get wrapped up in the need for latest and greatest gear, a Garand or an SKS and a 1911 will do just fine. The important thing is to come out and shoot.

18. Our shoots regularly have a theme so you are welcome to dress up for the event if you like. Whatever the theme you can come dressed in WWII Battledress and use a Thompson and a Browning HP or maybe you felt lazy on the day of the shoot and decided your comfy Ernie and Bert Pyjamas are more comfortable….no worries. There is no dress code here. Wear what is comfortable for you and functional. In terms of load bearing gear you can wear whatever will work for you, we only ask that it be safe and functional. The league reserves the rights to limit equipment or gear that are unsafe or give an unfair advantage should such a thing exist. 7/8
Tactical Carbine League - Rules and Procedures Version 1.0

19. You are welcome to take pictures during our matches but it is mandatory to get permission from the shooters prior to taking any happy snaps. Some people would prefer not to be on the Internet when they get home. Also we are sensitive to how some people would like to portray our sport and twist it out of context. Be sensitive in your pictures.

20. Spectators are allowed and encouraged especially family members. Remember that they must have proper eye and ear protection while in the range area and must be controlled at all times. Small children cannot be allowed to run free unsupervised in the range area. Whenever possible we will set up an area to shoot 22LR for the smaller shooters.

21. It is our sincere hope that we can be as inclusive as possible and allow anyone with a centre fire rifle/carbine and a pistol to participate. This is not designed to be a competition per say but more of a gathering of shooters for a fun day of exciting shooting. No prizes less the boasting rights. We will continue to develop the rules as we develop the league and various courses of fire. I hope to see you.

The previous was Happily stolen from the following link.....

Tactical Carbine Club Rules
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:57:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:25:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:01:52 PM EDT
I don't think anyone has issue with what was said, perhaps it was my suggestion posts. I don't know, apparently there is only a desire for some organization with some people, and not any with others.... I have not attended a shoot yet but I intend to attend on the 18th I understand that CMMG is running the range and they have final say as to what goes and what doesn't. Again I am only suggesting things to help if they aren't liked or desired it would help if people spoke to the problems they have and the things they would like to see done differently.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:18:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 8:25:44 PM EDT by nascar3n8fan]
I know I don't make all the shoots, especially the last couple, but it's been an ammo supply/scheduling deal as much as anything. IMHO, I'm not crazy about a super organized club thing, but then again, I probably don't show up enough for my opinion to count for much on that matter. I do agree on the non arfcommers not being familiar with all the safety issues that we discuss on the boards and to be truthful it bothers me a little. Don't get me wrong, I did bring an outsider to a shoot and will probably bring the same guy to the 18th shoot, but I can tell you that I was definitely informing him, in detail, about the safety rules on the way there, even though he was no stranger to guns. I have also noticed a little bit of concern (Jeff and John, I apologize if I'm overstepping my bounds or misinterpreting your motives) on the part of our most gracious hosts. Example; the exploding targets, yes we now know what the approximate safe distance is for putting the stuff in, ahem ,metal objects, but when it was just our core group, it was kind of like "whoa, we better move our asses back a little more." Now we can't do that kind of stuff at all. If you remember the videos and pics from the shoot that CMMG had with their Reps, they were blowing the crap out of metal stuff, and this was after I was asked to stop doing it. Why? Well, if it was me, my reasoning would be that when you have a smaller group of people that you can trust, because you're familiar with them and you have already discussed safety issues with them, you don't worry about the liability as much. When you've got up to 20 people or more that you've never even met before, that comfort level goes down. Jeff and John please understand that I'm not bagging on you, actually I admire the way that you've stepped up to nip potentially dangerous situations in the bud, even though you have to deal with my selfish desire to blow up things like washing machines. Nor am I proposing that we become isolationist, if it wasn't for the warm, friendly reception that I received the first time I went to a shoot, I wouldn't have come back and considered myself a part of this group, and would have missed out on making some great new friends.

Originally Posted By Miranthis:
Short of going the route of incorporating and forming a "real" club so we can promulgate a newsletter or something I don't know how we reach the non-net shooters. Absent a clearly defined club structure and creation of a new legal entity (LLC, Corp or the like) I think that there is some risk in being part of the organization. For instance if someone AD/ND's and gets hurt/ hurts anohter the cast of potential defendants includes not only CMMG and all the individuals that are associated with th match organization and adminestration but also MODCC. What now is MODCC? Basically an unincorporated partnership between "members". Judgments can go after personal assets of the "partners/members" in situations like that. I know that we all like to think that it can't happen to us, but it is something to think about...

In response to Miranthis' quote and as a solution to what I had stated above, here is my suggestion...
What I would propose that we do as far as these issues go, is first of all, please give your guest a friendly but firm description of what will be going on at the shoot and what will be expected of him/her. Second, put our safety and range rules in writing. The MODCC Range Bible if you will, and have several copies of it at the shoots. I also propose that we draw up a hold harmless agreement at the end of it. Miranthis and Duke, maybe you can tell me whether a signed hold harmless agreement is even worth the paper it's written on, if so maybe one of you, as our shyster, um I mean shining lawyers would be able to draw up a sound legal one holding CMMG and MODCC free of liability, (BTW, congatulations on your recent successes Duke). Each new person as well as the veterans would have to review the "MODCC Range Bible" in the presence of one of the CMMG owners or a designated member, in case there are any quetions, and signing the hold harmless would acknowlege both understanding and acceptance of the rules and regulations as well as taking some of the burden off of CMMG and MODCC as a group. Violation of the rules (which hopefully wouldn't result in injury) would be grounds to remove the person from the shoot (or prohibit participation by the individual for the rest of the shoot) and that person would be asked to not come back, for their safety and the safety of the rest of the group. This of course would have to be dealt with on a situation by situation basis, i.e. the severity of the rule being broken, warnings already issued, etc.

Just my $.02 for what it's worth.

Thank you for your time and I would appreciate your vote for washing machinabomber in November.

BTW, It's late and yes I know I'm probably rambling.


P.S. I found these really cool incendiary tracer rounds that would be great for the 4x4 shoot.
Whaddya think John? LOL
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:26:37 AM EDT

Miranthis will probably agree with me that a hold harmless waiver is clumsy and fairly useless. An LLC is probably the best solution, its more powerful, more flexible, and only costs $105 to set up. Someone has to be in charge of the LLC though, even though the paperwork is very minimal.

This has been an interseting thread for sure. I think there are really only three big changes that need to be implemented for the shoot on the 18th for everything to run MUCH smoother than before.

1. A "Range Master" or "Range Boss" who is in charge of the running of the course of fire.

2. A "Safey Czar" or "Safety Nazi" whose job is to ensure that everyone is following the rules of range safety (including yellow flags).

3. Start on time and keep the shoot running (Range Master's job here).

Really, if we do those three things alone, the shoot on the 18th will be hella better than some of the other ones we've had recently.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:04:48 AM EDT
CMMG has been providing the yellow flags. Folks, those flags are not free. I dont know how much they cost, but CMMG should not be providing them for free. How about giving the flags to the "Safety Nazi" and he collects the money from members who needs safety flags. No flag, no shooting. The money goes back to CMMG at the end of the shoot.

We also need to appoint someone who collects donation from shooters. In the past, I saw Jeff or John got so busy running the shoot, they forgot to put the donation box out. If we can assign this task to someone else, it will make things easier for our host. Sometimes, there are shooters who were invited by our host and they are not ARFcom members. We dont always know who they are. I dont know how they would feel though when our collection guy passes the donation box to them.

Did we discuss who manage the donation funds? CMMG? Or MODCC? CMMG has spent money, time and efforts to host this shoot for us. But, OTOH, we need to build new barricades etc (attn. Metalman - Marshall, let me know when you want to have a build party at your place).

Just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:48:20 AM EDT
OK, My first time at this thing I will be bringing plenty of Ammunition, weapons, tools, cleaning supplies, Hearing protection, eye protection, raffle ticket money, etc.

If there are no objections I will also be bringing:

Timer and remote display
EZ up Shelter
Tactical gear-(Sorry Can't seem to do this sort of thing without it)
Video camera
Digital Still camera
Extra "Loaner" gear.

Anything I am missing?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 7:10:06 AM EDT
AFSOC: Figure out about how much ammo you'll need.

Then bring twice as much.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 9:27:51 AM EDT
I don't go squirrel hunting without at least 15 loaded mags!
I figure on two cases of M-855 and a part of a case of M-193
Plus I hope there is ammo available there.
No time to order another case.
I don't tend to use that much ammunition usually two rounds per target, no dropped shots. But then if there are "Fun Guns"
present I may have a tendency to burn a bit more powder.
Of course I am bringing my nephew too and he may need to shoot something as well
I don't want to deprive the kid of too much fun.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 5:38:16 AM EDT
Newbie here, I've read this thread through to the end, and I can relate to most if not all of these posts. I've shot in 3gun matches, cas, blackpowder and 8 years in the army. I'm not the best shot, but I 've observed a few things usually a few people end up doing all the work, so that needs spread around.
I love to shoot and like the shooting with your buddies feeling, thats usually why a guy makes the effort to show up, so maybe introductions would help, if there's alot of people, breaking up into posses that stay together through the day spreads the work out and usually makes new friends plus it keeps a manageable number of people near the range.

SAFETY AND RULES: New shooters should have a mentor stay with them during their day at the range and sign a form stating they will abide by all safety and rules before they shoot, giving name and info.

I found out about the shoots on this ARFcom, I like the bulk e-mail idea. I couldn't access the clubs web site so I don't know when or where the shoots are, but I'm looking forward to going.
Maybe a flyer that is downloadable somewhere would help get the word out to non-ARFcom people, a guy could copy some off and pass them out to gun shops and gun shows ( CMMG should get credit for being a sponser and free advertising).

This is just my (IMHO) ideas that have found make for a fun time and help keep my shooting up, so flame away, I hope I'll be accepted and look forward to making a shoot and meeting some of you guys. Sincerely, HillbillyGadget
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