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Posted: 6/4/2009 7:24:20 AM EST
I'm thinking about picking up a couple to add to my SHTF/survival pack. Are the expired NBC filters I see everyone selling worth a dime? If not then where do I get some good ones?
Link Posted: 6/4/2009 7:30:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2009 7:30:50 AM EST by lamarbrog]
NBC filters only expire for C.

Nuclear... it is a particle filter... It doesn't expire from sitting on a shelf.
Biological... Same. Particle filter. Doesn't expire sitting on a shelf.
Chemical has (had?) activated charcoal... It would neutralize the chemical agents. They may have other chemicals to stop it now... It was once charcoal.



I keep a good number of NB filters on hand... because if there is a bird flu or something, they're just as good.


Edit: Disclaimer: If I am wrong and this info gets you killed... Sorry, but no refunds.
Link Posted: 6/4/2009 7:55:12 AM EST
There was a sticky in the EE about expired filters.

But let me tell you what I know:

Without a protective suit like a MOPP suit, the mask alone is not sufficient protection especially if you don't have a DECON plan.

Avoidance is the best game plan for prepping NBC.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/4/2009 10:22:15 AM EST
Don't get training filters either.
Link Posted: 6/4/2009 1:22:18 PM EST
NBC masks are only limited protection against biological agents.

I've been out of the Army for a while but when I was in I did the NBC training for my tank platoon. We were always taught by the actual chemical corps NCO's that many kinds of biological agents are smaller than air molecules and therefore small enough to pass through an NBC filter. Since you have to be able to breath the filter has to let air in and since the agent is smaller it can pass through without being scrubbed off. Our best protection was to rely on the over pressurization system onboard the M1A1 because air leaked out, not in.

The only true protection I am aware of for biological agents is a sealed system with it's own airsupply like you always see in the movies. Call me paranoid but I don't trust anything on the civilian market, I'll stick to my M25A1 or M17.







Z

Link Posted: 6/4/2009 2:27:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2009 2:28:00 PM EST by nationwide]
Originally Posted By TX-Zen:
NBC masks are only limited protection against biological agents.

I've been out of the Army for a while but when I was in I did the NBC training for my tank platoon. We were always taught by the actual chemical corps NCO's that many kinds of biological agents are smaller than air molecules and therefore small enough to pass through an NBC filter. Since you have to be able to breath the filter has to let air in and since the agent is smaller it can pass through without being scrubbed off. Our best protection was to rely on the over pressurization system onboard the M1A1 because air leaked out, not in.

The only true protection I am aware of for biological agents is a sealed system with it's own airsupply like you always see in the movies. Call me paranoid but I don't trust anything on the civilian market, I'll stick to my M25A1 or M17.






Z



There's much better masks available than Vietnam era ones, although you are correct in the "best" protection is having bottled air.

Right now, I have a M40 mask with a C2A1 filter, although I'm considering procuring commercial filters for it. Haven't decided yet, since I've had a lot of training in this area lately and I've lost confidence in a mask by itself as a protective solution.


Link Posted: 6/4/2009 5:16:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By nationwide:

There's much better masks available than Vietnam era ones, although you are correct in the "best" protection is having bottled air.

Right now, I have a M40 mask with a C2A1 filter, although I'm considering procuring commercial filters for it. Haven't decided yet, since I've had a lot of training in this area lately and I've lost confidence in a mask by itself as a protective solution.




If you have to work in the stuff, Level A is the way to go. But, you can't travel in Level A or stay there long. Level A = fully encapsulated suit with SCBA. For filtered air, I use either a Scott AV3000 mask with the 40mm NATO adapter or a Scott M95 mask....with either an MPC Plus cartridge or the CBRN cartridge. I'm paying about $14 each for the MPC Plus and $230/4 CBRNs.

I work with Chlorine, Ammonia, Sulfur Dioxide liquids and gases......95% of the time, if there is even the slightest risk of exposure, I go with the SCBA.


mm

PS –– NW check your IMs.
Link Posted: 6/4/2009 6:29:37 PM EST
I am certified to teach DG spill clean-up..... And I was my Battalion NBC NCO for a spell.

Are the expired NBC filters I see everyone selling worth a dime?


Depends, but in most cases.... yes. It depends on the type and how old they are. For chemical agents the filters have active ingredients that can become less effective over time (after two years you are supposed to trash many filters even if they have not been used). Biological agents they just act as a filter, so they will still work. Even old ones are better than nothing in most cases, IMO.

The type of mask makes the most difference. The best you can get is a self contained system that either scrubs your CO2 with something like a lime agent, or that just has a big 'ol tank of air.... Anything else is a band aid. These systems are expensive (one I used was 10k) and not much fun to wear for any length of time.

Next you REALLY need to know the limitations of your equipment. Many people every year get killed taking an open system (Filter only) into an O2 deficient environment. You would think most people would know that a filter will only remove particles and NOT add O2.... Yet people who have training end up dead every year. Plus, some agents are either too small to get filtered out, eat right through, or are absorbed by the skin. Also, once the filters start working... the clock is ticking and they will fail at some point. Still, some protection is better than nothing.

Poison enters the system either by: Inhalation, absorption, injection, or ingestion. A mask will only stop inhalation and ingestion. For example, a blister agent or VX nerve gas only needs to come in contact with your skin and you are screwed. So a mask without a full MOPP suit can be worthless.

Nuclear.... No mask is going to help.
Biological.... Some will get filtered
Chemical... Again some will get filtered.

As others pointed out, without a decon plan you are still pretty screwed.

Have a mask and MOPP suit.
If your buddy starts doing the kickin' chicken... suit up right away.
GET OUT of the area ASAP.
Stay out of low lying areas where gases can stagnate.
Don't touch a damn thing.
Have a decon plan.

So, Yes... A mask is a good idea. It is in no way a guaranty that you will not just be busy while you die.
Link Posted: 6/4/2009 6:51:15 PM EST
What about those surplus Israeli filters?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:40:00 PM EST
Good info here guys, thank you. Where would I find an MOPP suit? Looked at ebay and they only had the older charcoal ones.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 3:15:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By quest84:
Good info here guys, thank you. Where would I find an MOPP suit? Looked at ebay and they only had the older charcoal ones.



I am not sure, but I think MOPP suits still use activated charcoal. Also be aware that they have a limited shelf life.

A civilian version of the same is a Lion Rescuewear MT94. The ones we purchase have a Nomex outer layer.....they run about $1900 a suit.



mm
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:13:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 3:15:49 PM EST by SSMdive]
Good info here guys, thank you. Where would I find an MOPP suit? Looked at ebay and they only had the older charcoal ones.


Those will be fine.... Even a set of complete coveralls is better than nothing.

http://www.industrysearch.com.au/Products/Chemical_Overalls-35818

While they will not provide any absorption/neutralization protection, they will prevent the agents from coming in contact with your skin. Again, something is better than nothing.

Oh, and charcoal suits do have a shelf life..... But they really do work longer than they are listed for... Also the state they are stored makes a big difference. I knew guys that had MOPP suits that were open and never bothered to replace them. Once they are open, they do not last as long as they are sealed.

Again though, even an old open suit is better than standing nakid in the middle of a gas cloud.
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