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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/21/2005 5:18:24 PM EDT
I have a friend, we'll call him Bob. Bob is a MD resident. Bob, as of this post is in PA. Well it seems that Bob purchased a DPMS AR-15 from a dealer in PA today. These are the specs, Mod. A-15, telestock, flattop, 16" bbl w/ flash suppresor and gas block(no front sight). It is a legal purchase. Being PA, it was cash and carry. It IS NOT an H-BAR barrel rifle. From the conversation we had it seems that it is a quasi H-BAR, but not the standard type of barrel either. The question is this; Are there any issues that may arrise from this purchase as it regards to bringing it back into MD? I don't think that there is, but maybe the MD Arfcom hive mind may know something that I do not.

Oh yeah, Bob won some shotgun from some raffle and decided he didn't want the shot gun and traded it in on the AR-15. He got an AR-15 for $300. You may commence with the vommiting and the diatribe of how much you hate Bob.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:28:24 PM EDT
OK, I have been a MD resident for all my life, but was stationed in TN for the last year or so before I moved back here. I asked MD state police about bringing the handguns I had bought in TN back to MD, and they said no problem. As long as the weapons are legally obtained in another state, they can be brought back to MD (and without any registration BS either!). So, it looks like Bob has discovered a loophole that never occurred to me. Non-HBAR AR-15's can be bought from FFL's in other states since they are long guns and then brought back to MD. Way to go Bob!
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:38:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2005 5:50:33 PM EDT by colesteele]
Thanks Liberty. I think that is all the info I need, but more input is welcomed.

ETA- liberty, how long ago was this?

ETA2- nevermind Liberty.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 1:49:22 AM EDT
You should check with the MSP anyway. Sounds too good to be true. I recall amother similar situation, but the answer ten was register them after you bring them into MD. Don't take oponions as gospel. (especially mine!). Let's hear from some more viewers.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 7:45:19 AM EDT
As I see it, your friend's dealer failed to follow federal law in selling it directly to your friend and has placed your friend at risk.

Federal law requires that any dealer making a non-resident sale comply with the laws of the resident's home state with regard to what is legal to transfer.

In effect, this means that, even though the rifle is unregulated in PA, it IS regulated in MD, so, IF it's not really an HBAR, the dealer still must treat it as a specially regulated firearm, and so, like a handgun, it should have been shipped to a MD dealer for transfer. This makes it a dealer violation and thus federal case.

The "gray area", if any, is whether or not it IS actually an HBAR, and thus a non-restricted/unregulated rifle in MD. A rifle with the receiver marked "HBAR" (Colt) is clearly exempt. A rifle with a barrel marked HBAR is arbitrarily (and debatably) exempt. A rifle not marked HBAR becomes a regulated firearm in MD - plain and simple.

So, my opinion is that a violation probably has occurred. Whether this is a real threat to your friend or not will depend on several things, such as how the rifle is described in the dealer's paperwork. If it was sold and described as an HBAR, then, it's a dang HBAR. If your friend bought it in good faith with no evil intent and trusted the federally licensed dealer to handle the sale in compliance with federal law, he may have no liability as well.

As far as MD goes, I don't see it as a problem, you may return to the state with your property. Restricted rifles are not "registered" per se', only by MSP approval (backdoor registration) upon transfer. Like full-capacity magazine transfers, the state law only effectively regulates transfer. Actual possession of a non-HBAR is only a question/problem if your friend is under 21 YO.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 3:23:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eshell:
As I see it, your friend's dealer failed to follow federal law in selling it directly to your friend and has placed your friend at risk.

Federal law requires that any dealer making a non-resident sale comply with the laws of the resident's home state with regard to what is legal to transfer.

In effect, this means that, even though the rifle is unregulated in PA, it IS regulated in MD, so, IF it's not really an HBAR, the dealer still must treat it as a specially regulated firearm, and so, like a handgun, it should have been shipped to a MD dealer for transfer. This makes it a dealer violation and thus federal case.

The "gray area", if any, is whether or not it IS actually an HBAR, and thus a non-restricted/unregulated rifle in MD. A rifle with the receiver marked "HBAR" (Colt) is clearly exempt. A rifle with a barrel marked HBAR is arbitrarily (and debatably) exempt. A rifle not marked HBAR becomes a regulated firearm in MD - plain and simple.

So, my opinion is that a violation probably has occurred. Whether this is a real threat to your friend or not will depend on several things, such as how the rifle is described in the dealer's paperwork. If it was sold and described as an HBAR, then, it's a dang HBAR. If your friend bought it in good faith with no evil intent and trusted the federally licensed dealer to handle the sale in compliance with federal law, he may have no liability as well.

As far as MD goes, I don't see it as a problem, you may return to the state with your property. Restricted rifles are not "registered" per se', only by MSP approval (backdoor registration) upon transfer. Like full-capacity magazine transfers, the state law only effectively regulates transfer. Actual possession of a non-HBAR is only a question/problem if your friend is under 21 YO.



I take back what I said about Bob having discovered a loophole--eshell is right. The dealer in PA failed to comply with MD requirements for the purchase of that weapon. Your friend should probably call MSP and explain the situation (with the gun still in PA of course) before he attempts to bring the gun back to MD.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 3:34:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 3:36:04 PM EDT by X_Ring]

Originally Posted By eshell:

The "gray area", if any, is whether or not it IS actually an HBAR, and thus a non-restricted/unregulated rifle in MD. A rifle with the receiver marked "HBAR" (Colt) is clearly exempt. A rifle with a barrel marked HBAR is arbitrarily (and debatably) exempt. A rifle not marked HBAR becomes a regulated firearm in MD - plain and simple..



I have to differ with you on this one eshell. My Bushie M4A3 "patrolman's carbine" does NOT say HBAR on the barrel or receiver, but the licenced class3 dealer I bought it from new didn't care.
Also, there's been a rash of "Colt LEO ONLY" carbines sold since the sunset of the ban. My buddy bought one at the Upper Marlboro show. It does NOT say HBAR on the barrel or reciever.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see a whole bunch of dealers making the same mistake.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:08:29 PM EDT
Everything I have heard or read on this, including the letter of the law, only exempts Colt HBAR or similar (via interpretation) rifles. I would NOT want to have bought a non-HBAR rifle in a non-regulated manner, and then have to answer to the po-po and courts in MD about it someday.

Maybe they will never ever ever find out, but the "other people were doing it" is NOT a defense.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:16:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 5:20:37 PM EDT by colesteele]
If the buyer unknowingly makes a not-so-legal purchase from the dealer when the dealer presents the sale as legal, wouldn't the onus be on the dealer? Of course the buyer would have to forefiet the firearm or transfer the firearm to a dealer in MD.

ETA- Take this example

OK, I have been a MD resident for all my life, but was stationed in TN for the last year or so before I moved back here. I asked MD state police about bringing the handguns I had bought in TN back to MD, and they said no problem. As long as the weapons are legally obtained in another state, they can be brought back to MD (and without any registration BS either!). So, it looks like Bob has discovered a loophole that never occurred to me. Non-HBAR AR-15's can be bought from FFL's in other states since they are long guns and then brought back to MD. Way to go Bob!


Now, no handgun can be sold in MD w/o an internal trigger lock, but that does not apply to other states. In the above example, the handguns were legal purchases, hence the rifle in this case is a legal purchase and legal to bring into MD. At least that's the way I see it, but don't let that stop the information/opinion flow.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:23:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 5:31:24 PM EDT by X_Ring]
+1. I agree with eshel that the dealer in PA should not have sold the rifle to a Md resident if it didn't comply with Md regs. I just question the part about "HBAR" actually having to be stamped somewhere on the rifle. Which leads us into another discussion:
What/who determines if said rifle is an HBAR???
The manufacturer by having it stamped somewhere?
The actual measurement of the barrel being .750" (or whatever it needs to be)
I don't recall ever seeing an actual measurement for thickness in the law, just the description "HBAR".
The more I think about it, could this be a loophole for the anti's ??? I'm scaring myself here

"Now, no handgun can be sold in MD w/o an internal trigger lock, but that does not apply to other states. In the above example, the handguns were legal purchases, hence the rifle in this case is a legal purchase and legal to bring into MD. At least that's the way I see it, but don't let that stop the information/opinion flow."

How could the handguns have been a legal purchase in the above example?? I thought you could only buy a handgun in your state of residence? Being stationed in TN is not claiming residency. Long guns a different story.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 7:18:09 PM EDT
Just out of curiosity, several years ago you could still purchase WUM-1, SAR-1/2/3 (Romanian AK), Cetme, Century FAL from dealers at gunshows w/ out having background check- basically cash and carry. So, I guess it was OK to purchase FTF from individual back then also. Later, background check bacame mandatory plus the 7 days waiting.

How then can individual handle situation like this? Should he/she report what was purchased back then too? How do you know if an individual purchased a SAR-1 5-7 years ago and not yesterday? I remembered the MAC-90 in the early '90 was the same way.

BTW, when did ATF change the person to person out of state purchase law? I thought it was OK to do so ,again, several years ago.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:47:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 9:49:30 AM EDT by eshell]

Originally Posted By X_Ring:

Originally Posted By eshell:

The "gray area", if any, is whether or not it IS actually an HBAR, and thus a non-restricted/unregulated rifle in MD. A rifle with the receiver marked "HBAR" (Colt) is clearly exempt. A rifle with a barrel marked HBAR is arbitrarily (and debatably) exempt. A rifle not marked HBAR becomes a regulated firearm in MD - plain and simple..



I have to differ with you on this one eshell. My Bushie M4A3 "patrolman's carbine" does NOT say HBAR on the barrel or receiver, but the licenced class3 dealer I bought it from new didn't care.
Also, there's been a rash of "Colt LEO ONLY" carbines sold since the sunset of the ban. My buddy bought one at the Upper Marlboro show. It does NOT say HBAR on the barrel or reciever.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see a whole bunch of dealers making the same mistake.


There IS said to be some (sane) flexibility in the enforcement, though I really don't like depending upon someone else's "discression".

The law itself IS pretty clear. Maryland annotated code, Article 27, Section 481, Definitions:



(p) Regulated firearm.- "Regulated firearm" means:

(1) a handgun; or

(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon:
[snip extras]

(xv) Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle;



So, while I readily admit that there are some rifles (reasonably) treated like the specifically exempted Colt HBARs, the actual law say "not".

It is because of this arbitrary way in which this stupid law is applied is exactly why I used the term "gray area".
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:22:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By X_Ring:
+1. I agree with eshel that the dealer in PA should not have sold the rifle to a Md resident if it didn't comply with Md regs. I just question the part about "HBAR" actually having to be stamped somewhere on the rifle. Which leads us into another discussion:
What/who determines if said rifle is an HBAR???
The manufacturer by having it stamped somewhere?


Apparently so, and Colt's opinion becomes state law.

The actual measurement of the barrel being .750" (or whatever it needs to be)
I don't recall ever seeing an actual measurement for thickness in the law, just the description "HBAR".


I've never seen one in the law either, though I'm sure there's a CAD drawing floating around (Biggerhammer?) that shows the Colt spec diameter.

The more I think about it, could this be a loophole for the anti's ??? I'm scaring myself here



"Now, no handgun can be sold in MD w/o an internal trigger lock, but that does not apply to other states. In the above example, the handguns were legal purchases, hence the rifle in this case is a legal purchase and legal to bring into MD. At least that's the way I see it, but don't let that stop the information/opinion flow."

How could the handguns have been a legal purchase in the above example?? I thought you could only buy a handgun in your state of residence? Being stationed in TN is not claiming residency. Long guns a different story.


I agree with your question. Federal law requires that handguns be shipped to an FFL in your home state for subsequent transfer to you (since 1968?).

Without looking it up, IIRC, MD laws addressing the internal trigger lock requirement is a date-value item based upon the pistol's date of manufacture. Handguns manufacturered after the operative date would be requlated and need the lock.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:39:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BNZ:
Just out of curiosity, several years ago you could still purchase WUM-1, SAR-1/2/3 (Romanian AK), Cetme, Century FAL from dealers at gunshows w/ out having background check- basically cash and carry. So, I guess it was OK to purchase FTF from individual back then also. Later, background check bacame mandatory plus the 7 days waiting.


True, if a firearm could have been sold to one 'on the spot', without the waiting period & MSP check, then it would also qualify for a FTF transfer between state residents meeting all other requirements.


How then can individual handle situation like this? Should he/she report what was purchased back then too? How do you know if an individual purchased a SAR-1 5-7 years ago and not yesterday? I remembered the MAC-90 in the early '90 was the same way.


Simply put, one is subject to the laws in effect at the time, both now, and then.

Meaning that, if it was legal to buy a currently restricted firearm back then w/o paperwork, it WAS also legal to FTF.

Things are different now, laws changed, if you wanted to transfer anything listed in the MD code (Article27/Section481/Definitions) as a "restricted firearm", it must go through the restricted firearm process, regardless of whatever laws were or were not in effect "back then" when you initially bought it.

For example, prior to the MD assault weapon legislation, one buys a non-HBAR Colt AR15, from a dealer, in the context of the "long gun" that it really is. That gun could then be sold FTF, like any long gun, all the way up until the "new" law took effect, thereafter, it must go through the MSP paperwork/waiting period.

The passage of the MD assault weapon legislation only affected "transfers" and not "possession" (if you're over 21), nor was a "mandatory registration" called for, so, "no", one did not have to call and talk all this over with MSP, or register in any other way, when the law changed.


BTW, when did ATF change the person to person out of state purchase law? I thought it was OK to do so ,again, several years ago.

IIRC, that changed with the "Brady Bill", but someone else should field this one, I'm not sure when this occurred, or by what legislation. Never saw it in writing.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:56:09 PM EDT
Hopefully I am not stating this again, but did not see it in the thread.
Liberty was TDY in TN. There is an exception for military stationed away from their home state.
He could buy under the TN laws and bring it back once returning home.

As for Bob, since he is not (I'm guessing) in the military he is not allowed to purchase the rifle outside of MD. I know a lot of the PA dealers do not know the MD laws and realy don't want to.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:54:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By X_Ring:

"Now, no handgun can be sold in MD w/o an internal trigger lock, but that does not apply to other states. In the above example, the handguns were legal purchases, hence the rifle in this case is a legal purchase and legal to bring into MD. At least that's the way I see it, but don't let that stop the information/opinion flow."

How could the handguns have been a legal purchase in the above example?? I thought you could only buy a handgun in your state of residence? Being stationed in TN is not claiming residency. Long guns a different story.



While I maintained MD residency as far as the IRS is concerned, ATF is a different story. Active duty servicemembers with PCS orders to a duty station in a state other than their state of residency may purchase weapons (including handguns) in either state, provided that you can show the dealer your military ID and copy of orders with duty station listed on it. Technically, I could have bought the handguns FTF, but I wasn't going to take a chance on not being able to prove legal acquisition of the guns when I got back to MD. That's why I went through an FFL and kept a copy of the 4473's. The sale only has to comply with the law of the state where it is being conducted. In any case, I don't think the FFL in TN could have even imagined what the laws in MD were. He was shocked when I told him that you couldn't buy 30 round mags in MD. But I'm not sure it even mattered, since the handguns were both HK's and already had the integrated safety thingy (I've never used it...).
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:31:00 PM EDT
That explains it. I guess I should have caught the fact that you said you were "stationed" in TN. Sorry for not reading throughly. To add to your point:
A buddies daughter was having a hard time qualifying for MA in the Navy. She said there were no instructors available, she just had to try to figure it out on her own. We went down to Norfolk to help her out. She was not allowed to "barrow" a duty weapon. We made a few calls, went to a gunshop, and bought a Beretta 92 on the spot. She showed her Md drivers licence, military ID, and that was it...done deal. No waiting. I was green with envy. Also, I'm happy to say that after learning trigger control, grip and stance she qualified on her first attempt.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:02:20 PM EDT
I see we have no definitive conclusion to this issue. Maybe can be treated the same way as hi-cap magazines. Perhaps this is something that wasn't thought of when the law(s) were being drafted. I told Bob that maybe he should call Jessup and ask the ones who have the final word.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:02:19 PM EDT
Bob will be along soon to explain the whole situation. Please stay tuned.
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