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Page Hometown » Ohio
Posted: 3/16/2005 5:54:13 AM EST
What is the meaning of this?
Is it related to Pompeii?
Do you mean "Thermopylae"? -What happened of significance in that battle?

just curious
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:03:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:15:09 AM EST
isn't that kind of a counter attack for the "Molon Labe" types? Point being, they may have said "come and get em", but they got their asses fragged.

am i mixing events here?
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:24:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:35:19 AM EST
it prompts the question: is it better (noble) to fight to the death or to surrender and become a slave...
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:43:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:49:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 6:59:43 AM EST by fizassist]

Originally Posted By shotar:
It is a reminder that while dying for a cause in an all or nothing battle may be noble, it seldom accomplishes anything of lasting value. Sometimes it is better to pick your battles and live to fight another day.



With all due respect, the lasting value of the battle of Thermopalyae is incalculable. It had the effect of uniting the Greeks and stopping the Persian invasion. Given the significant impact of Greek culture on all of the western world, it is difficult to overestimate the importance of this battle. Sometimes "picking your battles" means knowing that you are going to die. A warrior does not fight so that he may live; he fights so that others may do so.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:01:35 AM EST
remember the alamo...
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:02:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:20:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:38:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By shotar:
The point is not to die for your country. The point is to make the other guy die for his.



See my post above. The lives of those 300 warriors (+ support personnel) were not ill-spent. They knew the cost going in, and their efforts saved Greece. Certainly, dying in and of itself is not noble; it is tragic. There are times, however, when dying is the only way to save others. And that is the most noble of acts:



John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Link Posted: 3/16/2005 8:14:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 8:31:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By shotar:
It is a reminder that while dying for a cause in an all or nothing battle may be noble, it seldom accomplishes anything of lasting value. Sometimes it is better to pick your battles and live to fight another day.



With all due respect, the lasting value of the battle of Thermopalyae is incalculable. It had the effect of uniting the Greeks and stopping the Persian invasion. Given the significant impact of Greek culture on all of the western world, it is difficult to overestimate the importance of this battle. Sometimes "picking your battles" means knowing that you are going to die. A warrior does not fight so that he may live; he fights so that others may do so.



+1

Those 300 Spartans single handedly united all the Greek city/states into one fairly cohesive group, and that one group of Greeks defeated the advancing Persians.

Did they die in vain? I think not.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 8:34:30 AM EST
Mark Wilson died too. Doesn't mean he wasn't successful in his actions.

"So that others may live"
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 8:41:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 8:44:30 AM EST
Having read several books on the subject, I must agree that the decision made by King Leanida's was the correct one. There are two peices of information that must not be left out:

There was a prophecy that stated the Spartans would win at the sacrifice of a King- Leonidas

There were more Spartan soldiers available. They could have taken hundreds more men, but they only had 10,000 Peers total. They took a small number of men for the symbolism; the death of those 300 was mean to mean something greater.

If they hadn't gone, Greece would not have had the time to prepare, and they would have been overrun. Had they taken more men, they would not have had as many for the final battle.

And, they won.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:22:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:07:25 AM EST

The point is not to die for your country. The point is to make the other guy die for his.


Patton...Gotta love him!
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:28:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 1:14:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By NAM:
Point being, they may have said "come and get em", but they got their asses fragged.



The Spartans went to Thermopylae well knowing that they were dead. Only the Spartan warriors with male offspring were allowed to go, for exactly this reason. Some things are more important than preserving one's own life. Anybody who doesn't understand the importance of that battle needs to study a little more history. The Spartans (and their allies) who died changed the entire course of the modern world.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 2:00:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 4:12:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By QCMGR:

Originally Posted By shotar:
Not at all. Its an Ohio thing. Michigan folks wouldn't understand.


I would tend to agree!



Is it even appropriate for Michigan Moderators to be posting in here?
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 5:31:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:
With all due respect, the lasting value of the battle of Thermopalyae is incalculable. It had the effect of uniting the Greeks and stopping the Persian invasion. Given the significant impact of Greek culture on all of the western world, it is difficult to overestimate the importance of this battle. Sometimes "picking your battles" means knowing that you are going to die. A warrior does not fight so that he may live; he fights so that others may do so.



They didn't stop the Persian invasion. They just delayed long enough for the Athenians to get their act together. There were battles at Salamis (naval) and Platea (land) after Thermopylae.

I am still so awed at the determination and fighting skill of those men (the Spartans). The 300 (with several thousand extra troops) fended off three waves of thousands of Persians. Persian bodies heaped up in piles in front of the Spartans, and finally the Persian rank-and-file had to be driven forward under whips to continue the press against the Spartans. If it wasn't for the Spartans we'd probably be Easterners. The Athenians wouldn't have had the time to get their navy ready, and Western Civilization could have died.

-Wolf
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 6:58:12 PM EST
A more modern example of the same spirit that was shown at Thermopylae is the man with the groceries in Tianenmen Square. He's almost surely long dead, no one really knows, but his actions meant something.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:11:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By IdentityCrisis:

The point is not to die for your country. The point is to make the other guy die for his.


Patton...Gotta love him!



I'm not guessing either way but would Patton have done the same as the Spartans if he was commander? I see it as very different wars with little in common although I understand your point.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 7:28:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:
Sometimes "picking your battles" means knowing that you are going to die. A warrior does not fight so that he may live; he fights so that others may do so.



One of my favorite quotes comes from that battle and hints that the Greeks knew what the outcome would be. My apologies for not remembering the source:

Before the battle, one of the Trachinian allies was heard to say, "Such is the number of the barbarians, that when they shoot forth their arrows, the sun will be darkened by their multitude." Dieneces, a Spartan hoplite, not at all frightened at these words, answered "Our Trachinian friend brings us excellent tidings. If the Medes darken the sun, we shall have our fight in the shade."
Link Posted: 3/17/2005 3:30:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By astronwolf:

Originally Posted By fizassist:
With all due respect, the lasting value of the battle of Thermopalyae is incalculable. It had the effect of uniting the Greeks and stopping the Persian invasion. Given the significant impact of Greek culture on all of the western world, it is difficult to overestimate the importance of this battle. Sometimes "picking your battles" means knowing that you are going to die. A warrior does not fight so that he may live; he fights so that others may do so.



They didn't stop the Persian invasion. They just delayed long enough for the Athenians to get their act together. There were battles at Salamis (naval) and Platea (land) after Thermopylae.



That's why I said "had the effect of...stopping," not "stopped". The general consensus is that the psychological effect of the Spartans' heroism on the other Greeks far outweighed the 3 day delay that the actual battle caused the Persian land force.
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