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Posted: 6/2/2008 9:14:35 AM EST
After shooting the steel city match last weekend I am set on building up another rifle and going with a heavier 18" barrel and a 1-4 scope.

What options are there? And what recommendations do yall have?

NF 1-4
Meopta 1-4
Burris "extreme" has a few different scopes
Leupold 1-3 CQT
Millet DMS-1
Horus Talon
"GSRE" (or what ever the name of it is) 1-4FFP (anybody know the real name of it??)
The Schmidt is too expensive......

Can anybody add anything to this???

I think this was discussed under the "JEEP" (??) rifle concept last year by VSP and a few others.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:34:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 9:38:00 AM EST by 00bullitt]
My recommendation is to stay away from any first/front focal plane low power scopes. Its not necessary and the reticle is always backwards to what it needs to be.
There is also an advantage to true 1x scopes as opposed to 1.5x scopes.
True 1x have greater fields of view and allow picking up close targets(inside 15 yards) much easier while searching tight arrays through the scope. there is enough degradation in FOV there to make a difference. Not saying that one can't get used to or use a 1.5x but there is an advantage to using 1x. Whether or not your skill level can tell the difference is another story. There is to me and I proved it this weekend.
I have used several of the scopes you listed. The USO is probably the best piece of glass I have used.....I am just waiting for them to make VSP's new reticle in the rear focal plane. Currently their FFP design does not work for me.
I highly recommend the Leupold CQT for target engagements out to 350. After 350.....the reticle floats in limbo and is no longer repeatable or consistent. But the optic has the largest FOV of any I have tested and used and it is true 1x. Illumination is not daytime visible but for me.....does not need to be. If you have to have daytime illumination you need to look at the S&B short dot,Meopta,Trijicon,or Swarovski Z6. And for those they all have deficiencies for use as a 3 gun/tactical scope in my opinion.
I am currently using a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5 with SPR reticle in a Larue mount. I also have the CQT in a Larue mount. I switch them out accordingly dependant on the match. For the Tactical rifle match in Bham.....I would use the CQT. Their longest engagement has never been over 300 and is usually not more than 200. The CQ/T is excellent. For matches that require more precision and have stages with mixed distances....I will use the Mark 4. but I'm still quite pleased with the CQT. That is an excellent magnified optic that was never truely given all the credit it desrerves. The Nightforce 1-4 with FC2 reticle and zero stop knobs is also sweet. If you know your dope out to the distances you are shooting......it is sweet. Just dial in your dope and hold dead on. Downfall is that it is a bit pricey. I would stay away from the cheaper Millett and GSRE scopes. The IOR 1.1-4 with newly redesigned CQB reticle is a good scope but weighs as much as the rifle.
I have a travelling partner who has just gotten the new Burris Tactical 1-4. His thoughts are still mixed on the scope. It has alot of flaws but the price is reasonable. I do not care at all for the Horus reticle and again its an FFP low power scope. I personally like the CQT for anything inside 300 yards as long as the target is not smaller than 8". Like I said.....the CQT is grossly underestimated.

As for the 18" barrel........I recommend not going too heavy. I like a fluted medium contour 16 or 18" barrel for an optically sighted rifle in competition. I shoot my 16" gun 90% of the time. Why do you define the need for a heavier 18" barrel?
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 10:00:24 AM EST
18" barrel: Well....honestly I am just trying to see if I am missing anything with my short/lightweight setup. I am running a 16" BM pencil barrel 1/7 with a rifle length hand guard and a JP comp. Also running a 3lb Timney trigger. There is virtually no muzzle rise or recoil. Its quite a bit lighter than a std M4 style rifle.

I have a spare 18" SPR barrel from WOA and all the parts to build the upper, except the optics.

Thanks for the info. I know that I am sticking with a true 1x scope and was only listing the 1x scopes I knew of. Your not the first person that has said the CQT scope is way under rated. I keep hearing that. I am seriously looking hard at it.....I just want to finger one before I spend the money on it. My dealer price on the CQT is about where I am going to set my budget for the optic...so USO and NF is out.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 10:16:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 10:20:00 AM EST by 00bullitt]
I would maybe look at getting a better match grade stainless 16" mid gas barrel instead of the 18". 18" starts feeling like I'm swinging a broomstick on fast transitions. I would lighten and flute the 18" considerably if you plan to use it.
My setup is a Sabre Defence SS(1/8) 16" mid gas fluted barrel with the JP VTAC handguard. I also use the Timney trigger in that gun. Its a good trigger. My other rifle is a Krieger SS (1/7.7)medium contour/fluted rifle length gas with PRi carbon fiber competition tube and JP trigger. Both guns have the SJC TITAN comp designed by VSP. The most efficient brake available for an AR. the 18" runs the JP stainless bolt carrier group and the 16" has a Young IONBonded lightened national match group. I run MGI rate reducing buffers in both. They run flawless.

As for barrel length.....I shoot my 16" out to 500 yards and can take over a Larue resetter at 425 with 55 grain VMAXes. It shoots sub MOA out to 200 and MOA out to 400. Just opens up slightly more than MOA at 500. That is with handloaded ammo.

I think you will be thoroughly pleased with a CQT once you get to finger bang one. The circle dot reticle is fast and the FOV is huge. Hard to believe the FOV is so huge out of a 14mm lense.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 10:48:45 AM EST
I currently am running a Trijicon Acupoint 1.25-4 in a Larue SPR mount on my 3-Gun AR [16" RECCE Style]

I really like the clarity of the glass and the triangle reticle. The adjustment knobs are great- they feature a pretty neat return to zero feature. The fiber optic light gathering strip is adjustable and at night the tritium really illuminates the reticle nicely.

I've been toying with it at the range and I'm planning on running it in a 3 gun competition this week.

Only Downfall is the Larue Mount Price- It's SUPER Nice but it is pricey. It is the only way that I have found to run that scope on an AR Platform though.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 11:02:19 AM EST
I have looked through the 1.25x accupoint and was not happy with the 1.25x low end. If it was a true 1x I might consider it.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 11:19:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 11:31:42 AM EST by caver101]
I usually run the 55gn Vmax as well, but ran into a deal on 2K Remington 55gn FMJ that.....unfortunately shoot like crap and contributed to my suckage on the long range stage at steel city this time.

The existing BM barrel is MOA with my 55gn Vmax hand loads and thats more than enough accuracy to make me happy.

Now this is going to show my ignorance of the gas gun......but why do you prefer the mid length gas system over the carbine length? (Less recoil due to less duration of pressure on the gas system?)

I remember seeing the comp VSP had designed, got a link to it?

ETA: The 18" barrel thing is just to see if I am missing on anything. No plans to stay with it, just gonna try it and play around with it. I have the tools and parts just laying here.

I guess it just comes down to I am still not totally happy with what I am running and am looking for a better mouse trap.

ETA: found the comp. Is that the only place to get it?
stores.sjcguns.com/Detail.bok?no=52

ETA: who's barrel blanks does Saber use?
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 11:37:50 AM EST
I use a DMS-1 and really like it. Some guys use weaver V3's and others some form of Luepold Vari-X scope.

The important thing seems to be that the glass should have a true 1x magnification or close to it so you can shoot with both eyes open like you would with a Eotech or Aimpoint.


Link Posted: 6/2/2008 11:38:17 AM EST
How much do you have to spend? For the 1-4X range the Elcan SpecterDR is hard to beat. The quality of the glass is awesome, you get crosshairs, red dot, and 1X or 4X with the throw of a lever, and a built-in ARMS mount. Only downside is not easy to get and a bit heavy but they are built like a tank.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 12:02:42 PM EST
Depending on the range of your longest shots you may be better served with an aimpoint T-1 and a 3X magnifier.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 1:17:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By ikickhippies:
I currently am running a Trijicon Acupoint 1.25-4 in a Larue SPR mount on my 3-Gun AR [16" RECCE Style]

I really like the clarity of the glass and the triangle reticle. The adjustment knobs are great- they feature a pretty neat return to zero feature. The fiber optic light gathering strip is adjustable and at night the tritium really illuminates the reticle nicely.

I've been toying with it at the range and I'm planning on running it in a 3 gun competition this week.

Only Downfall is the Larue Mount Price- It's SUPER Nice but it is pricey. It is the only way that I have found to run that scope on an AR Platform though.
\

+100 I have this set up as well and I can't say enough good about it.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 1:20:22 PM EST
I am running the Trijicon TAO1NSN and I love it. No regrets.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 1:56:06 PM EST
How do you guys feel about the EOTech 557 with 4x package? I know the battery doesn't last as long as an Aimpoint but even if it only last for half the time that it's rated, that is still around 21 days. I feel that for the most part you should be able to get some AA to replace it by then unless your really in the sandbox.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 2:00:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By wickedwicked:
How do you guys feel about the EOTech 557 with 4x package? I know the battery doesn't last as long as an Aimpoint but even if it only last for half the time that it's rated, that is still around 21 days. I feel that for the most part you should be able to get some AA to replace it by then unless your really in the sandbox.


One of the nice things about the DMS-1 is that the reticle is always there even if you don't have the illuminator on. Dead battery?....no problem
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 3:31:34 PM EST
http://www.cpwsa.com/3_gun_stuff.htm


titancomp
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 4:14:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 4:37:04 PM EST by 00bullitt]
Chris Patty CPWSA is a good friend and 3 gun travelling buddy. He is good people and a damn tough competitor in OPEN.
A group of four of us are leaving Thursday early AM to head up to Missouri for the FNH/CMMG multigun match.

As for the Sabre blanks.....I don't know whose they use. I heard they were in house. but I have been thoroughly pleased with mine. I actually won the gun at Area 6 3 gun last year and have been using it in competition this year.

The mid length gas system is just a bit more reliable and it is softer in recoil. I have a real hard time telling the difference in rifle length versus mid length when using the Titan comp. Carbine length feels much sharper and disrupts the sights just enough to be annoying.
One of the best tests to use to test the efficiency of a comp is to touch the muzzle of the brake to a cardboard target. If it just leaves a small hole and black ring like the Titan.....its efficient. My AAC can does more damage to a target. I have yet to find and run a comp as efficient. And no.....Erik does not pay me to say that.

As for the Trijicon Tr21......great optic with good features and one real bad. The reticle sucks ass. That triangle on a black post sucks. The eye rerlief and FOV are good. Reticle is daylight visible. The zeroing knobs are a good feature and are the only way to adjust for target holdover. The 1.25x is noticable but not as bad as a 1.5x. The reticle is extremely daylight visible and it can also be shot front lens cover closed/occluded for fast up close engagament if your eyes will work that way.

The downfall of all the ACOGS is the fixed power and lack of in your face transition capability unless you can shoot occluded. The reticles are pretty good for holdover on the ACOGS though. But with the ACOGS......you give alot up inside 25 yards in target transition speed. Guys in OPEN run them because they can run the ACOG with a Doctor type dot sight for up close. can't do that in Tac Optics.

The Millet DMS scopes are OK for the money.....but for the more serious 3 gunner.....they lack some durability and have had severe zero shift issues. The last thing I want is for my optic to go TU in a match. I have personally seen many(more than 6)DMS scopes fail in a stage.

VSP has been working closely with USO to incorporate his reticle into the excellent SN4s. They are currently building his reticle into a rear focal plane lens and redesigning the the illumination module to work in the RFP. When it is finished.....that will be the scope I use as I have been using a USO with circle chevron for a short piece now. I used it at the last Steel City Tactical rifle championship. That is where I decided I hated a FFP low power optic.

Magnifiers behind the red dot scopes have alot of issues. They tend to have either dot focus or target focus problems. The reticles become too large and fuzzy when magnified. Eye relief and FOV suck. I prefer a variable optic all day long. But not everyone will agree. I base alot of my weapon and accessory selection on 3 gun and multi gun competition. If it does not work well for me in competition....its not going to work well for me in the tactical world.

Link Posted: 6/3/2008 3:33:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 3:37:54 AM EST by caver101]
Thats my rub...... I run my Eotech in the scout position (way out front) and LOVE the FOV and quick target acquisition I get for close range stuff. I don't have to worry about eye relief....BUT it sucks for most anything over 150-200 yds.

I have tried the occluded thing with the Trijicons and while it worked OK for me, is not what I would want to run all of the time.

I see where a 1-4x scope would be the kitties whiskers....but I am not going to budget over $1k for a scope right now with the economy going down the tubes......I know in my line of work its dead right now.

I am going to try the test with the comp against a cardboard target one day this week and post photos.

This is the rifle I am running:
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 4:56:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 5:11:43 AM EST
Let me clarify: I don't have the titan comp, I am going to try the test Tod was talking about with my JP comp and see how it does first. If it fails miserably than I will see about getting the titan.

Thanks for all of the info on barrels, comps & optics. Thats a lot of info to review and think about.


Something like the Leupold Prismatic in size, with a 1-4x power magnification and a illuminated etched glass BDC style reticle and a $600 price would sale like mad.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 5:22:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 5:23:00 AM EST by ikickhippies]

Originally Posted By 00bullitt:

As for the Trijicon Tr21......great optic with good features and one real bad. The reticle sucks ass. That triangle on a black post sucks. The eye rerlief and FOV are good. Reticle is daylight visible. The zeroing knobs are a good feature and are the only way to adjust for target holdover. The 1.25x is noticable but not as bad as a 1.5x. The reticle is extremely daylight visible and it can also be shot front lens cover closed/occluded for fast up close engagament if your eyes will work that way.



There is a new German #4 Reticle that is coming out this year. I'm thinking about changing out when I get some of these in. The dot is from 2.4–0.9 MOA Amber Dot
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:05:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:49:28 AM EST
Hey Caver101

Your IM box is full, please contact BIGGER_HAMMER.

You have E-mail since your IM box is full

Thanks!

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 8:12:10 AM EST
replied
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 12:18:36 PM EST
i've been loving on my Millet DMS-1, so far this scope has been fantastic
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 4:57:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 5:09:47 AM EST by 00bullitt]

Originally Posted By caver101:
Let me clarify: I don't have the titan comp, I am going to try the test Tod was talking about with my JP comp and see how it does first. If it fails miserably than I will see about getting the Titan.


ETA: WARNING,WARNING........thread drift

I have tested many of the comps on the market and own all but the TTi or JP Tank brake.
I have performed the cardboard test with all of them. They all failed in my opinion....including my AAC can. The Titan kind of surprised me. This all came about by accident to by the way. We were doing ECQB drills with my shorty AR and can. Contact shots were being made and targets were getting destroyed. I finished out the day running a few drills with my competition rifle and made a contact shot. I was kind of surprised the target did not move. Just a small black ring and a 22 caliber hole. That got me to thinking. I was like damn.....this thing must redirect all available gas to where it needs to go. So it became a basis of comparing comps. I also used several transition drills that required multiple hits on target at various distances and also some bench shooting as a determination but really like the cardboard contact test. BTW.....the cooley comp looks cool but is one of the poorest performers I have tested. The Miculek brake actually works better.

Here is a quick write up of my latest test with the Benny Hill Rolling Thunder comp that has been said to be the best comp out there.
Muzzle break thread with comparison write up

I should be keeping the Titan a secret,because I consider it quite an advantage but instead I preach to the world. You know Erik.....if you want to pay me.....I can be one them company whores.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 5:42:20 AM EST
OK Eric.....you gonna give the GA.HTF boys a little discount to pimp your gear
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 9:25:48 AM EST


Buy a DMS-1 from Bigriver tactical or the dog gets it!
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 10:51:05 AM EST
Great HTF thread.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 3:21:16 AM EST
I was looking over all of the scopes again and there is a leupold VXIII 1.75-6x scope that would be great it they could get it down to 1x.........
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