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Posted: 9/21/2009 12:25:27 AM EDT
Remember this incident...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6840622.ece

An improperly trained police firearms instructor shot and nearly killed a civilian during a gun training exercise, a court was told.

PC David Micklethwaite mistakenly loaded a Magnum .44 revolver with a live round and pulled the trigger while pointing it at a colleague during a half-day course at Thames Valley police headquarters in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, on May 30, 2007.

Keith Tilbury, 51, a police telephone operator who used to shoot for Britain as a member of the Berkshire county rifle team, was shot through the body and was unlikely to be able to work again, Southwark Crown Court was told.

The court was told how PC Micklethwaite had been asked to cover at short notice and, the night before, had gone to the armoury, picked up a Quality Street tin, one of a number of containers used to hold ammunition, thinking that it contained blanks. In fact it contained 22 live rounds, which he took with him to the course venue the next day.
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“Towards the end of the afternoon course he was demonstrating the difference between a revolver and a pistol. He took a round out of the tin and loaded it in a Magnum .44 revolver,” said Richard Matthews, for the prosecution.

“He told the class it was a dummy round. He held it close to his chest and repeatedly pulled the trigger to show how the barrel revolved.”

The students were arranged around Pc Micklethwaite in a horseshoe shape, and the barrel of the gun ended up pointing at Mr Tilbury, who said later that he had been involved in shooting since the age of 13 and knew it was a breach of basic safety procedure. As soon as Mr Tilbury realised that he was looking down the barrel he had decided to move.

He later told police: “I remember thinking I was not happy with him pointing the gun at me, but I didn’t say anything because he was an instructor and this was a disciplinary lecture. It was drilled into us during training you never, ever point a gun at someone.

"I believe I was in the process of getting up out of my chair to move when I heard two clicks and then a loud bang. I was forced back into the chair and then on one knee.”

The bullet passed though his body and lodged in the arm of the chair behind him. Mr Tilbury spent five hours in surgery for serious damage to his bowel, kidney, lung and liver. He was unconscious for 12 days and remained in hospital for a further ten.

The court was told that PC Micklethwaite, 52, had failed a Metropolitan Police firearms instruction course, but the Thames Valley force had decided that this was due to differences between the two forces’ handling and safety drills, and that he would still receive his certificate provided that he underwent a “development programme”.

But although the certificate was issued, the extra training was never provided, Mr Matthews said.

Although the instructors should have used expertly prepared and audited cases of demonstration ammunition, some bullets were kept in makeshift containers including a Quality Street tin, a Tupperware box and a baby-food tin, the court heard.

Katerina McAteer, for Thames Valley police, said PC Micklethwaite had undergone an “extremely detailed” period of training and assessment. “As far as Thames Valley were concerned he was bona fide and safe and there was nothing to indicate otherwise.”

The officer, who originally denied any wrongdoing, admitted breaching the Health and Safety at Work Act. Thames Valley Constabulary pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to breaching the regulations.

Nicholas Pardoe, representing PC Micklethwaite, said his client wished to “take this opportunity to issue a heartfelt apology to all those affected by this incident”.

PC Micklethwaite and Thames Valley Constabulary will be sentenced later, when both are likely to be fined.
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 1:58:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 2:34:43 AM EDT



Originally Posted By streetfighter:


Fucking idiot


You can't help wondering what would have happened if it had been a civilian FAC holder that had shot a friend while showing them a LBR... I suspect a bit more than a fine...



 
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 2:37:37 AM EDT
Who on here keeps their ammo in a biscuit tin? Stupid Twats.
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 3:06:16 AM EDT
you know any of us would be in jail now for doing something like that!

In fact we'd lose our tickets for keeping our ammo in a biscuit tin....

hob nob or jhp anyone?
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 3:08:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 3:31:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2009 4:08:29 AM EDT by steven_uk]
Where to begin on this one ?....a complete lack of commonsense & NSP's....It ain't that hard is it....?

Although the instructors should have used expertly prepared and audited cases of demonstration ammunition, some bullets were kept in makeshift containers including a Quality Street tin, a Tupperware box and a baby-food tin

“He told the class it was a dummy round. He held it close to his chest and repeatedly pulled the trigger to show how the barrel revolved.”


Why load a round into the chamber at all ?

The court was told that PC Micklethwaite, 52, had failed a Metropolitan Police firearms instruction course, but the Thames Valley force had decided that this was due to differences between the two forces’ handling and safety drills, and that he would still receive his certificate provided that he underwent a “development programme”.


Why a difference in training between forces ?

The officer, who originally denied any wrongdoing




PC Micklethwaite and Thames Valley Constabulary will be sentenced later, when both are likely to be fined




Link Posted: 9/21/2009 3:55:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 4:32:05 AM EDT
Still don't understand why he loaded it. Surely even if it was blanks it would have to have been on a range rather than a classroom?

You'd never catch me using a Quality Street tin, Hero's maybe!
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 4:32:15 AM EDT
A catalogue of fail indeed. Funnily enough I recently heard that Thames Valley are looking for a new Armourer. I don't think anyone's shot him though.....
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 5:24:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
A catalogue of fail indeed. Funnily enough I recently heard that Thames Valley are looking for a new Armourer. I don't think anyone's shot him though.....


What's the odds on them taking on someone that knows anything about firearms, firearms maintenance and their safe use?

Link Posted: 9/21/2009 5:44:12 AM EDT
Can you not use pictures to demonstrate the difference between a revolver and handgun - considering the guy he shot had pretty extensive experience in shooting I doubt he needed telling. Why were TVP holding .44 magnum pistol rounds in their armory? It's not an issue weapon (to my knowledge) so why weren't disposed off when they were seized handed in? Would have made more sense that off putting them with the jammie dodgers. Furthermore - why was he allowed to take live ammunition our of the armory for a classroom demo anyway? Why did he need to load it to show how it worked? Could he not have dry fired it? Sounds like someone wanted to show off to me.

The amount of safety procedures that have been broken or ignored beggars belief.
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 7:06:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By UKGuy:
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
A catalogue of fail indeed. Funnily enough I recently heard that Thames Valley are looking for a new Armourer. I don't think anyone's shot him though.....


What's the odds on them taking on someone that knows anything about firearms, firearms maintenance and their safe use?



That's a pretty radical step you're talking about.... That said, we've just taken on a chap as a part-time armourer who is a practising RFD..

Link Posted: 9/21/2009 7:20:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By UKGuy:
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
A catalogue of fail indeed. Funnily enough I recently heard that Thames Valley are looking for a new Armourer. I don't think anyone's shot him though.....


What's the odds on them taking on someone that knows anything about firearms, firearms maintenance and their safe use?



Hell no, that would mean promoting safe gun handling, since all gunz should be banned for the sake of the chilleren, acknowledging that gunz exist is completely out of the question.......they want retards that don't know anything, it's much safer that way.
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 7:20:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackKnight1974:
Can you not use pictures to demonstrate the difference between a revolver and handgun - considering the guy he shot had pretty extensive experience in shooting I doubt he needed telling. I would imagine that there was a wide range of experience, mostly none, in the audience. Why were TVP holding .44 magnum pistol rounds in their armory? It's not an issue weapon (to my knowledge) so why weren't disposed off when they were seized handed in? Most if not all police armouries hold a variety of guns for dissimilar weapons training, ironically so AFO's can train to make unfamiliar weapons safe. Also Instructors are required to include dissimilar weapons in their initial training.. Would have made more sense that off putting them with the jammie dodgers. Furthermore - why was he allowed to take live ammunition our of the armory for a classroom demo anyway? He probably isn't. The assertion is that he didn't know it was live ammunition, but rather tends to call into question their storage procedures and his ability to identify ammunition. All the dummy rounds we hold have a different visual appearance to live ammunition.. Why did he need to load it to show how it worked? He didn't..Could he not have dry fired it? Don't see why not   Sounds like someone wanted to show off to me. Unquestionably the man is a cock.
The amount of safety procedures that have been broken or ignored beggars belief.


People don't fail courses very often, they just need further development.............

Link Posted: 9/21/2009 7:36:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2009 7:38:55 AM EDT by Agent_Funky]
What pisses me off is the way we have to jump through hoops to get anything, are considered untrustworthy by the authorities at best and psychos by the rest, and can't be trusted to handle a pistol even though we shoot very often, and stand to lose not only thousands of pounds worth of equipment but more importantly, our families, freedom, jobs, houses, etc and bring a shitstorm of hurt onto those we love if we put a foot wrong........ yet the "competent aouthority" will happily let a fuckstick like this, who has failed a training course to needlessly handle a non-issue firearm and ammunition, outside of the range environment, and in a classroom full of people where a video or book could have adequately demonstrated whatever was being proved.

And when he shoots somone "accidentally" with a .44 Magnum() he gets a fine.......................WTF
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 7:55:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
What pisses me off is the way we have to jump through hoops to get anything, are considered untrustworthy by the authorities at best and psychos by the rest, and can't be trusted to handle a pistol even though we shoot very often, and stand to lose not only thousands of pounds worth of equipment but more importantly, our families, freedom, jobs, houses, etc and bring a shitstorm of hurt onto those we love if we put a foot wrong........ yet the "competent aouthority" will happily let a fuckstick like this, who has failed a training course to needlessly handle a non-issue firearm and ammunition, outside of the range environment, and in a classroom full of people where a video or book could have adequately demonstrated whatever was being proved.

And when he shoots somone "accidentally" with a .44 Magnum() he gets a fine.......................WTF


If you were considered untrustworthy you wouldn't have an FAC. I understand your frustration but don't mix all the political spin of the gun bans with a public sector agency operating beyond it's experience..

Link Posted: 9/21/2009 10:35:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
What pisses me off is the way we have to jump through hoops to get anything, are considered untrustworthy by the authorities at best and psychos by the rest, and can't be trusted to handle a pistol even though we shoot very often, and stand to lose not only thousands of pounds worth of equipment but more importantly, our families, freedom, jobs, houses, etc and bring a shitstorm of hurt onto those we love if we put a foot wrong........ yet the "competent aouthority" will happily let a fuckstick like this, who has failed a training course to needlessly handle a non-issue firearm and ammunition, outside of the range environment, and in a classroom full of people where a video or book could have adequately demonstrated whatever was being proved.

And when he shoots somone "accidentally" with a .44 Magnum() he gets a fine.......................WTF


If you were considered untrustworthy you wouldn't have an FAC. I understand your frustration but don't mix all the political spin of the gun bans with a public sector agency operating beyond it's experience..



It's hard not to mix it though.......The spin of the gun bans is part of the problem  

Seems to me we have seen the dumbing down of a nation, not just with firearms but with risk in general.  We have removed so much risk and sanitised our lives through the nanny state to such an extent that when people are confronted with a situation they no longer know how recognise it and act accordingly.

I just think If more people were trained and comfortable round firearms then maybe somone in that classrom would have questioned what the guy was doing and pulled him up on it.........

Strikes me that the level of fail in the scenario that led to someone being shot was epic. It's not like it wa a technical issue, or a malfunction, the guy loaded a gun in a classroom and shot somone. How do you get hrough all the checks and balances to a level of danger like that without one single person there saying something?

Unbelieveable

Link Posted: 9/21/2009 11:41:05 AM EDT
a public sector agency operating beyond it's experience..
That applies to most of Whitehall (and Brussels) these days....
Soren
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 11:47:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By IcarusY625:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
What pisses me off is the way we have to jump through hoops to get anything, are considered untrustworthy by the authorities at best and psychos by the rest, and can't be trusted to handle a pistol even though we shoot very often, and stand to lose not only thousands of pounds worth of equipment but more importantly, our families, freedom, jobs, houses, etc and bring a shitstorm of hurt onto those we love if we put a foot wrong........ yet the "competent aouthority" will happily let a fuckstick like this, who has failed a training course to needlessly handle a non-issue firearm and ammunition, outside of the range environment, and in a classroom full of people where a video or book could have adequately demonstrated whatever was being proved.

And when he shoots somone "accidentally" with a .44 Magnum() he gets a fine.......................WTF


If you were considered untrustworthy you wouldn't have an FAC. I understand your frustration but don't mix all the political spin of the gun bans with a public sector agency operating beyond it's experience..



It's hard not to mix it though.......The spin of the gun bans is part of the problem   Certainly one example of it..

Seems to me we have seen the dumbing down of a nation, not just with firearms but with risk in general.  We have removed so much risk and sanitised our lives through the nanny state to such an extent that when people are confronted with a situation they no longer know how recognise it and act accordingly. I totally agree. It's all part of the uber-control policy exercised by the current government, to achieve total reliance on the State by the populace, by which means the State hopes to achieve a controlled populace that will always vote for it for fear of having to think for itself if it weren't there anymore..
I just think If more people were trained and comfortable round firearms then maybe somone in that classrom would have questioned what the guy was doing and pulled him up on it......... Well not everyone is interested in guns but I agree that if guns were more commonplace, everyday items and not constantly demonised by State and hysterical media then many issues would go away. However, the chap that got shot ironically had prior knowledge but it didn't help him much. Probably didn't want to cause a scene..
Strikes me that the level of fail in the scenario that led to someone being shot was epic. It's not like it wa a technical issue, or a malfunction, the guy loaded a gun in a classroom and shot somone. How do you get hrough all the checks and balances to a level of danger like that without one single person there saying something? By making a cock a Firearms Instructor..they trusted the 'expert'..
Unbelieveable



Link Posted: 9/22/2009 10:46:24 AM EDT
admitted breaching the Health and Safety at Work Act.
I'm sorry but I did smile a bit


mop the floor and don't put out a yellow warning sign =  breaching the Health and Safety at Work Act
not knowing the deference between a live round and a blank and then shoot someone

. furfucksake.





john





and you never keep you ammo in a sweety tin , we all know you are meant to keep them in you pockets,


then forget to take them out when you wash your pants ( or so I have been told )



 
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 6:31:48 AM EDT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8272110.stm

Police fined £40,000 for shooting
l
Thames Valley Police has been fined £40,000 for breaching health and safety laws when a civilian worker was accidentally shot.

Pc David Micklethwaite, 52, shot control room employee Keith Tilbury, 57, during a firearms awareness course in Oxfordshire on 30 May 2007.

The police force and Pc Micklethwaite pleaded guilty to offences under the 1974 Health and Safety Act.

Pc Micklethwaite was fined £8,000 and ordered to pay £8,000 in costs.

Thames Valley Police was ordered to pay £25,000 in costs.

It was revealed at Southwark Crown Court that Pc Micklethewaite had failed a gun training course, but was allowed to continue working.

He mistakenly loaded a Magnum revolver with live ammunition which was kept in an old Quality Street tin.

The judge said this practice was a "disaster waiting to happen".

Pc Micklethwaite was accused of "engaging in the pointing of weapons and the pulling of a trigger during role-play in the classroom", "failing to examine or check the round of ammunition" and discharging the gun "while inadvertently pointing the weapon at Keith Tilbury".

Mr Tilbury, a control room employee for Thames Valley Police Authority, was shot in the stomach at point-blank range while he was listening to a lecture alongside 10 colleagues at the force's Police Headquarters North in Kidlington.

He suffered serious damage to his lungs, kidneys and bowel and spent two weeks in intensive care.

Mr Tilbury has told the BBC he is unlikely to return to work.

Deputy Chief Constable Francis Habgood, Thames Valley Police, said: "We accept the sentence passed down by the court today.

"A decision will now be taken as to whether PC Micklethwaite will face internal disciplinary proceedings into his conduct on the day of the shooting.

"I can reassure everybody that we have changed our procedures and were recently described as a model force on firearms training issues by an independent review."
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 7:23:35 AM EDT


Made of course by.....    Chad Valley  
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 11:15:38 AM EDT
'model'––non-functioning imitation of the real thing...................
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 11:48:58 PM EDT
And they don't trust us with guns

That article makes it sound like he fired a .22 in a .44Mag.
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