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Posted: 9/26/2007 3:25:52 PM EDT
I am just a newbie when it comes to gov't stuff, and im still only 18... So forgive me if I ask a fairly obvious question. What exactly happens when/if the state gov't goes down? State wide speeding day?

Seriously, what does this mean? I know its something about the budget not being agreed upon, but is this likely to happen?

Thanks
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 4:54:33 PM EDT
I would think MSP patrols will still be in effect. Civilian employees and Labs could take a hit. All other gov offices will be closed. Sec of State, Lottery, Family Independece Agency, and a bunch of offices youve never heard of will close. Get your Sec of State bussiness done.

I am hoping this will tilt the balance back to the right as the Republicans are making sure everyone knows they support sending cuts and not tax increases. While the Dems want to keep funding BS programs in the City and raise income taxes. I would rather see them take a lets say $500,000 program that really only helps maybe 100 inner city people and just give it to the working but struggling people tax free. Maybe they could actually do something with it.

Bet GM and UAW didnt plan on that when they took a no raise contract. Gee your not getting a raise and the Gov is going to take more. By the way they supported Grandmole and every other Dem.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 5:09:39 PM EDT
I got this a week ago from Ken Horn, my Rep.  Theres a few items in that budget that made me think WTF?

Where is the State Budget???

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I know many of you are watching the budget debate in Lansing with a variety of emotions – concern, worry, disbelief. . .maybe even disgust.   In the last 4 days, I’ve gotten over 600 emails to my office from concerned residents expressing these mixed emotions.  



The truth is that we still don’t have agreement.  While negotiations continue around the clock, differences of opinion are strong.  I can see this even among those who’ve written to me.



As I have said from the start, I refuse to allow Lansing's spending problem to become your problem through higher taxes.  Whether it's increasing the sales tax, hiking the income tax or imposing a so-called "luxury" tax (I call it an anti-tourism tax!), I am a definite "no" vote on all of these attempts to transfer Lansing's budget problems onto the backs of our state's already struggling families.

A real, long-term budget solution must embrace government restructuring and reform instead of short-sighted tax hikes.  Unfortunately, despite rhetoric to the contrary, the House has not made any serious moves on these reforms and instead is jumping right to a tax hike as the solution.    

Not only has the House failed to embrace reforms, they have actually included over a billion in new and expanded programs.  For example:



   * $44 million to reintroduce prisoners into communities
   * $21 million in increases prisoner hospital care
   * $12 million taxpayer bailout for the Detroit Zoo
   * $10 million new grant for the Detroit Institute of Arts
   * $50 million for increased welfare caseloads
   * $11 million to increase pay for day care placement agencies
   * $6.3 million for pay raises to direct care workers
   * $150 Million in State Employee Pay raises
   * $220 million to create a new pre-school program
   * $10 million to create a two new nursing programs


In this time of economic crisis, is it fair to create new programs and spend MORE?   “No Worker Left Behind” programs and all day kindergarten may or may not be good ideas, but we simply can’t afford them in today’s Michigan economy.  Spending money on new programs isn’t going to help our budget shortfall.  If we don’t meet this crisis head on and hold our spending, we are just creating a similar problem for our state next year and for years into the future.



This whole stalemate hinges on the simple fact that the majority party in the House refuses to reform spending, especially on new programs, and Republicans in the House refuse to raise taxes as an alternative to reforms.



The Governor, the Senate and the House need agree on the cost of government in 2008 - - not the amount of money that can be brought by new taxes.  I am dismayed at the fact that we’re still debating the shape of the negotiating table in this eleventh hour.  



While I will hold my position against new taxes, I also want to assure you that I am attempting to be a part of the solution.  Two days ago I suggested to the Governor and House and Senate Leadership that we set overall spending within the following parameters.



At the high end, General Fund spending in 2008 should be no higher than spending in 2007 plus the rate of inflation.  More realistically, going back to the Two-Penny Plan I offered earlier this year, we need to trim government spending by 2% to match our reduced revenues.  This is also a reasonable option.



An agreement along these lines, locked in and in writing, would force our appropriations teams back to the table to eliminate new spending.  We owe this much to taxpayers!



Even as I send this, it is anticipated that we will take further action on the budget tonight.  You may read of progress in the paper even before you read this newsletter.  Either way, I will send a follow up with the final outcome as we complete our work.  



As always, I welcome your input, ideas and concerns – especially now.  If you haven’t done so already, please feel free to contact me at kennethhorn@house.mi.gov, or by calling toll-free to 1-866-HORN-094.  
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 5:54:36 AM EDT


I'd better call MARVIN today!

Link Posted: 9/27/2007 3:33:29 PM EDT
LOL...good 'ol MARVIN...havent had to talk to him in a while...thank god!
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 5:36:50 PM EDT
If you hunt I would buy your licenses now
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 6:22:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2007 6:23:21 PM EDT by hanibal]
I saw a couple of dems on the 5:00 news tonight. I really like how they construe budget cuts as cutting funds from schools or public safety. As if there's no where else they can trim some fat.

I think the dems culd be screwed either way on this one. No one wants a tax increase. Well, maybe the ones on the Gov't teet who don't pay taxes won't mind, but those are the people who they're going to piss off with budget cuts.

I'm glad the Republicans are (so far) digging in and fighting the tax hike. I'd much rather see a shutdown than settle for a crappy deal just to keep the overspending going. Go ahead. Shut it down. I feel bad for any of the state employees we may have here who may suffer as a result of this, but I think it may need to be done.

In the emails and phone messages I've sent to my congress critters I told them there's no business on planet that can just vote themselves more money when they need it. Everyone else has to make cuts and the state is no exception.

ETA: Stock up on beer now just in case.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 7:57:29 PM EDT
So what do the greedy unions and libtards think of Granholm now?  I sure as hell hope there not complaining. I personally think we deserve this punishment.    

I hope I didn't offend anyone, after all she did do a great job first time around, right?

Wait I'm not done with my rant yet, I got an idea.  Maybe when this is all done and over with we can vote for her again.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 10:06:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By blue_bomber:
So what do the greedy unions and libtards think of Granholm now?  I sure as hell hope there not complaining. I personally think we deserve this punishment.    

I hope I didn't offend anyone, after all she did do a great job first time around, right?

Wait I'm not done with my rant yet, I got an idea.  Maybe when this is all done and over with we can vote for her again.


I'm simply BLOWN AWAY!
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 10:36:19 PM EDT
I'm not buying into this whole "buy your licenses / secretary of state business now" bullshit.  

If my DL expires next month, and it does, I have until the expiration date to re-new said license.  If at that time the state does not have the ability to issue a new license, I'd be more than happy to make a test case of myself in a court of law for driving without a license.  

Hell, I might even make my own and pay myself $35.

But it won't happen.  Ever.  It's all just grandstanding to justify the inevitable tax increase that these theives will implement in order to account for their lack of ability to get the job done.  Fuckers.  I hate politicians.  I hate politicians from Canada even more.  


Link Posted: 9/28/2007 12:28:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bushc78:
If you hunt I would buy your licenses now

did yesterday
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 4:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hanibal:


ETA: Stock up on beer now just in case.


Beer and wine arn't regulated by the State. It will still be comming in. Although all the liquor drinkers are gonna have to switch. I heard a bar owner say he could get about a weeks worth of liquor if the Gov shut down and thats it, then all he could serve was beer and wine. Bet the beer companies are hoping for a shut down.
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 5:52:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
I'm not buying into this whole "buy your licenses / secretary of state business now" bullshit.  

If my DL expires next month, and it does, I have until the expiration date to re-new said license.  If at that time the state does not have the ability to issue a new license, I'd be more than happy to make a test case of myself in a court of law for driving without a license.  


My thoughts exactly.  My tags are coming up, I have yet to receive the renewal paperwork.  If the State is shut down and I can't renew them that's thier problem, it will not become mine.

I already do my part subsidize this BS, if they think I'm going to pay additional fines etc. as a result of incompetency that is 100% not my doing I'd love to make a spectacle out of it.

Revenue is to be greater than or equal to expenditures.  Figure it out dumb asses and operate like the rest of us.
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 10:14:33 AM EDT
someone just sent me this.i guess it`s a list of what could be closing

PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES AND COMMUNITY COLLEGES: The state's 15 public four-year schools and 28 community colleges should stay open, but layoffs or some other cutbacks are possible if the shutdown continues for long. Another option would be to raise tuition, which already increased an average of about 10 percent at universities this fall. Universities haven't received their August payments from the state, and the next payment is due Oct. 16. Combined, they account for $280 million. Some community colleges might have to borrow money or tap into their reserves to stay afloat.

"It's going to affect the small rural schools much more than the larger, urban schools," said Mike Hansen, president of the Michigan Community College Association. "Some of these schools could be on the brink of financial disaster."

PRISONS: The state's 42 prisons would stay open, and parolees and probationers in the community would continue to be supervised, state officials said. Corrections spokesman Russ Marlan said the assumption is 80 percent of the department's 16,000-plus employees would continue working and be paid. If those workers weren't paid, they would sue, said Mel Grieshaber of the Michigan Corrections Organization, which represents more than 10,000 correctional officers.

POLICE AND FIRE: At least some of the state's more than 1,000 state troopers are likely to stay on the job, but it's unclear what the extent of their services will be. At a minimum, some administrative state police jobs could be disrupted in a shutdown. Local police and fire departments depend heavily on state revenue-sharing checks. If those payments are held up, layoffs would vary from city to city, according to the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. The state already has about 1,600 fewer police officers than it had during the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11.

DETROIT CASINOS: Granholm says they would be closed down if there's a shutdown. But a casino spokesman said the casino operators hope to persuade the Michigan Gaming Control Board on Thursday that state regulators are paid with casino fees rather than tax dollars, so the regulators should be able to do the oversight needed to keep the casinos open. If they close, 7,000 casino workers will be out of a job and the casinos no longer will pay taxes amounting to $450,000 a day for the state and $440,000 a day for the city of Detroit.

LOTTERY SALES: Lottery spokeswoman Andi Brancato says the Lottery Bureau will hold some drawings next week, even if there's a shutdown, because tickets already have been sold for them. But a shutdown would mean no new tickets would be sold starting Monday, and no prizes would be paid out on winning tickets until the shutdown ends. Ending ticket sales would cost the state about $2 million a day in lost lottery profits, which go to K-12 schools.

DRIVER'S LICENSES AND VEHICLE TITLES: Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land says branch offices would close if there's a government shutdown. The department processes 85,000 transactions daily, including 10,000 driver's licenses, 36,000 license plate tabs and 12,500 vehicle titles. People could still use the Internet or mail to request some services. But no one would be working to process any requests until the shutdown ends.

ROAD PROJECTS: Construction would stop on state road projects, according to the Michigan Infrastructure and Transportation Association, although some traffic safety workers might remain. Less clear is what happens to just-in-time delivery of bridge supports and other large materials that were ordered long ago and are set to be shipped early next week. Some worry that even a one-week delay in road construction will cause some projects to be unfinished when winter sets in, delaying completion until next spring. The Mackinac Bridge would stay open, said Liz Boyd, the governor's press secretary.

HEALTH CARE: Many assume the state's psychiatric hospitals likely would remain open, but some other programs -- including nutrition and disease prevention education and health-related inspections -- could be scaled back or shut down.

Medicaid reimbursement payments to doctors and hospitals might be stopped, which could lead some health care providers to decline to see patients, at least in non-emergency situations. Home health care workers paid partly by the state could be off the job.

LIQUOR: The state would stop distribution of packaged liquor, which eventually could limit the supply available in stores across the state.

ENVIRONMENT: No workers would be available to issue air, water and other permits, potentially affecting the environment and hampering businesses who need permits to operate. Regulators might not be around to monitor pollution affecting rivers, lakes and streams.

AGRICULTURE: Inspections of food and dairy products, pesticide and fertilizer plants and a range of commodities would cease, agribusiness groups say. There also would be no one to inspect if gasoline and diesel pumps were accurate.

CAMPING, HUNTING AND FISHING: The state already has closed 20 of its 138 forest campgrounds because of the tight budget. A partial shutdown could close the rest, along with all 13,500 campsites located at 71 state parks. The season for hunting deer with bows is scheduled to start Monday, and outdoor groups expect it to occur. But there may be no conservation officers checking licenses or manning check stations. Up to 350,000 people bow hunt. A shutdown could affect oversight of the state's six fish hatcheries, though the Michigan United Conservation Clubs says it's working on plans to possibly set up volunteer crews to run them.
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 1:37:41 PM EDT
The .gov's inability to take my money so I get their little stamp of approval will not keep me out of the woods this November.
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 4:25:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
I'm not buying into this whole "buy your licenses / secretary of state business now" bullshit.  

If my DL expires next month, and it does, I have until the expiration date to re-new said license.  If at that time the state does not have the ability to issue a new license, I'd be more than happy to make a test case of myself in a court of law for driving without a license.  

Hell, I might even make my own and pay myself $35.

But it won't happen.  Ever.  It's all just grandstanding to justify the inevitable tax increase that these theives will implement in order to account for their lack of ability to get the job done.  Fuckers.  I hate politicians.  I hate politicians from Canada even more.  




We just got a message advising "Law enforcement's understanding of the inability of Michigan motorists to renew an expired driver's license or registration while the shutdown is in effect would be appreciated."

Link Posted: 9/28/2007 4:38:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deadboi77:
someone just sent me this.i guess it`s a list of what could be closing
......
DETROIT CASINOS: Granholm says they would be closed down if there's a shutdown. But a casino spokesman said the casino operators hope to persuade the Michigan Gaming Control Board on Thursday that state regulators are paid with casino fees rather than tax dollars, so the regulators should be able to do the oversight needed to keep the casinos open. If they close, 7,000 casino workers will be out of a job and the casinos no longer will pay taxes amounting to $450,000 a day for the state and $440,000 a day for the city of Detroit.

LOTTERY SALES: Lottery spokeswoman Andi Brancato says the Lottery Bureau will hold some drawings next week, even if there's a shutdown, because tickets already have been sold for them. But a shutdown would mean no new tickets would be sold starting Monday, and no prizes would be paid out on winning tickets until the shutdown ends. Ending ticket sales would cost the state about $2 million a day in lost lottery profits, which go to K-12 schools.......

Brilliant!  We have a huge budget shortfall, so shut down departments that generate a ton of revenue.  Genius!
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 4:44:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2007 4:46:49 PM EDT by hanibal]

Originally Posted By bsf:

Originally Posted By deadboi77:
someone just sent me this.i guess it`s a list of what could be closing
......
DETROIT CASINOS: Granholm says they would be closed down if there's a shutdown. But a casino spokesman said the casino operators hope to persuade the Michigan Gaming Control Board on Thursday that state regulators are paid with casino fees rather than tax dollars, so the regulators should be able to do the oversight needed to keep the casinos open. If they close, 7,000 casino workers will be out of a job and the casinos no longer will pay taxes amounting to $450,000 a day for the state and $440,000 a day for the city of Detroit.

LOTTERY SALES: Lottery spokeswoman Andi Brancato says the Lottery Bureau will hold some drawings next week, even if there's a shutdown, because tickets already have been sold for them. But a shutdown would mean no new tickets would be sold starting Monday, and no prizes would be paid out on winning tickets until the shutdown ends. Ending ticket sales would cost the state about $2 million a day in lost lottery profits, which go to K-12 schools.......

Brilliant!  We have a huge budget shortfall, so shut down departments that generate a ton of revenue.  Genius!


The casinos will stay open. They filed suit today on the grounds that the state gaming commission is funded by the casinos and not the state's general fund. The judge agreed calling it politically motivated. Let me see if I can find a link.


ETA: Link to Detroit news article.
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 4:51:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By heavily_armed:
The .gov's inability to take my money so I get their little stamp of approval will not keep me out of the woods this November.


I don't think it would matter, the fun police are part of what will get shut down, so they won't be out there to see if you have a license or not.

Personally I think I'll fire up the dirtbike and run down some of those "endangered" birds
Link Posted: 9/29/2007 1:57:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2007 11:29:25 AM EDT by SevenMaryThree]
.








 
Link Posted: 9/29/2007 8:13:33 AM EDT
State offices that have to do with Public Safety will still be working including: state police, corrections officers, probation and parole officers.  

Most of the bloated spending goes to the East side of the state, specifically Wayne and Oakland Counties.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 2:59:14 AM EDT
I'm still trying real hard to see the down side to a shut down.

How much money are they saving per day by not running?
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 9:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Polish_Infidel:
State offices that have to do with Public Safety will still be working including: state police, corrections officers, probation and parole officers.  


A limited number of Michigan State Police troopers will provide law enforcement service on an emergency basis.

All MSP posts will be closed to the public and will not provide administrative services during the shutdown.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 7:29:23 PM EDT
The income tax increase passed House.....Thanks to Demopublican Ed Gaffney.

My letter to Mr. Gaffney:

"Dear Mr. Gaffney,

Your vote today to increase Michigan income tax rate made you a very special person: a traitor to your fellow people of Michigan who voted for you as a member of Republican Party. In a harsh times that we all face as a result of underperforming Michigan’s economy (thanks to our Governor), your vote today effectively gave a pay cuts to millions of working residents of this once great State that slowly goes to its economical disaster. I sincerely hope, that this decision will end your career as a Law maker and people of Grosse Pt Farms will not make the same mistake (re-electing you) in a future.

Respectfully,

kk66"

You can contact him at: Gaffey e-mail
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 3:57:12 AM EDT
<-------- looking for the silver lining.


Nope, nuthin but shit inside shit.

Stupid stupid stupid.  


Can ANYONE explain to me what part of our state's .gov is so very precious that they could not possibly stand any sort of budget freeze let alone a REAL cut?
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 4:22:40 AM EDT
I think Granholm won't be happy until she drives every successful business and every working person out this state.

I just read yesterday that VW is moving their HQ to Herndon, VA.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 5:20:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2007 5:21:33 AM EDT by Optik45]
Anyone know if the DNR is affected? I heard a rumor that someone bought their licenses last night and it costed $80, but this is unconfirmed. I need to pickup my Archery and Firearm licenses.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 5:26:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Optik45:
Anyone know if the DNR is affected? I heard a rumor that someone bought their licenses last night and it costed $80, but this is unconfirmed. I need to pickup my Archery and Firearm licenses.


The sale of DNR licences should not be effected, at least thats what we were told.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 5:34:16 AM EDT
I smell recalls.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 5:57:29 AM EDT
Shutdown averted.  
Income will be taxed at the new rate of 4.35 percent.  

Services now affected by the 6% sales tax:

•Business service centers
•Carpet, upholstery installation and service
•Couriers and messengers
•Document preparation
•Investigation guard and armored services
•Investment advice (no brokerage fees)
•Janitorial
•Landscaping
•Ware­housing and storage
•Mini-warehouse and self-storage
•Scenic transportation
•Transit and ground passenger (limousines, cabs)
•Office administration
•Other personal services
•Other travel and reservation services
•Personal care, excluding haircuts
•Security system services
•Service contracts
•Skiing
•Interior design
•Tour operators
•Consulting
•Packaging and labeling services
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 6:25:40 AM EDT
I'm really disappointed that these new taxes went through
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 6:52:55 AM EDT
RECALL!!!!!!

I am disgusted by this.
I love this state and I am saddened by what it has become.


P.Smith
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 7:00:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2007 7:01:51 AM EDT by Archer36]

Originally Posted By PersecutionSmith:
RECALL!!!!!!

I am disgusted by this.
I love this state and I am saddened by what it has become.


P.Smith

Same here, this really sucks hard.... Mass exodus from Michigan?

At least my haircut wont be subject to tax


Originally Posted By bsf:
I smell recalls.

ETA how does one go about doing something like that?
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 8:35:03 AM EDT
Oh great

Michigan .gov stupidity gets a mention on Rush's show.

At least he says we're patriots
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 9:10:26 AM EDT
i found a website called
recallgranholm.com
but I dont know how current it is.
There is also the issue of the legislators that need to be fired too.
I read in the news of an Oakland county group that is pushing for the recall of 4 or 5 legislators that voted for the tax hike, but I cant find it on the web, and FOX2 online didnt give any details.
anyone got any info??

P.Smith
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 10:28:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By madmathew:
I think Granholm won't be happy until she drives every successful business and every working person out this state.

I just read yesterday that VW is moving their HQ to Herndon, VA.

Its just all bad news, the new GM/UAW contract will close the Livonia plant within a few years. There goes 800 jobs to Mexico.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 11:40:21 AM EDT
So when does all this take affect?
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 12:11:55 PM EDT
damm
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 2:33:17 PM EDT
your tax increase is effective 10-1-07

bastages
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 4:00:51 PM EDT
If I could sell my house I'd get the F outta here.
Link Posted: 10/1/2007 6:19:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Archer36:


Originally Posted By bsf:
I smell recalls.

ETA how does one go about doing something like that?


I don't really know how the process works, but Leon Drolet was on WWJ radio today saying he hoped to have the wheels on motion on some recalls within a week. I don't see anything posted on the Michigan taxpayers alliance website as of yet, though he does mention it in his blog. From the website- Link.


I am now spending time every day preparing to support recall campaigns against key legislators who allowed this tax hike to happen. Successful recalls will change the way policy and tax questions are answered in Lansing.


I would assume there will be updates on that site as things progress.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 2:31:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2007 2:31:56 AM EDT by Tomislav]
In the House, two Republicans voted for the tax hike, Ed Gaffney, R-Grosse Pointe Farms and Chris Ward, R-Brighton. (From here.)

Cocksuckers though they are, they didn't change the balance of the vote. The Dems had the House.


In the Senate, however, it was full-on betrayal. The final vote was 19-19, with LG Cherry casting a tie-breaker.

From the GOP:
Gerald VanWoerkem, R-Muskegon
Ron Jelinek, R-Three Oaks
Tom George, R-Kalazmazoo
Patricia Birkholz, R-Saugatuck

...voting FOR the tax hikes.


Well so much for support of the MIGOP being worth a damn.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 10:08:59 AM EDT
Anyone get todays Wall Street Journal?

I hear they let the Gov have it and noted the fact that Michigan was already a place not to do bussiness. Now with the tax increases, who's gonna want to set up shop here. They also brought up the fact that the rest of the Country has been in an economic increase over the past 3 years, except Michigan.

Not good when the Nations top economic print, read by bussiness people around the world, bashes the State. I think the headline was "Hail to the Taxers"

Im lucky to have a good job that wont be leaving anytime soon. I feel bad for those who dont, but yet cant leave cause they cant sell their home or would take such a hit in selling. My retirement plans have changed thats for sure.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 10:14:44 AM EDT
We will be leaving the state before spring.  We had already decided to go, but this latest development cements our decision.
Link Posted: 10/2/2007 12:29:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtlmj:
We will be leaving the state before spring.  We had already decided to go, but this latest development cements our decision.


I'm thinking the same. Here are the states with the lowest tax burden:

40 W. Va
41 Texas
42 Idaho
43 South Dakota
44 Louisiana
45 New Mexico
46 Tenn.
47 Miss.
48 Alaska
49 Alabama
50 Oklahoma
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 3:41:21 PM EDT
Somehow, I'm not surprised in the least to see Tom George's name on the list of traitors.

Sometimes I hate Kalamazoo...
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